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#sugar-meeting, 2017-07-07

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Time Nick Message
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18:59 walterbender any SLOB members here?
18:59 llaske hi Walter, yes
19:00 walterbender hi llaske
19:00 llaske, thanks for running the meeting on Monday
19:00 had no network connection
19:00 CanoeBerry2, kaametza ???
19:00 sverma <sverma!~sverma@2607:fb90:9dc6:474e:63ce:e94:4c8a:8681> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:00 llaske no problem, I learnt lot of things :-)
19:00 walterbender hi sverma
19:01 llaske Hi Sameer
19:01 sverma Greetings!
19:01 kaametza hi Walter, Lionel
19:01 walterbender hi laura
19:01 we have a quorum :)
19:01 kaametza hello Sameer
19:01 walterbender let's get started
19:01 llaske Hi all
19:01 walterbender #start-meeting
19:01 meeting Meeting started Fri Jul  7 19:01:34 2017 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:01 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
19:01 walterbender welcome everyone
19:01 tony37 <tony37!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:03 walterbender Not to much on my agenda today
19:03 icarito_ hi
19:03 walterbender I just wrote a paper about Sugar for the RED journal
19:03 llaske cool
19:04 walterbender #link http://www.um.es/ead/red/54/bender.pdf
19:04 tony37 walter did samson get a visa?
19:04 walterbender not yet
19:04 he is still hoping
19:04 but the consul thinks he is not planning to return to Nigeria
19:04 a bit frustrating
19:04 tony37 no round trip ticket?
19:05 walterbender he has a round-trip ticket
19:05 kaametza #info Agenda items for today https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]ght_Board/Minutes
19:05 llaske unfortunately it's the current policy in France
19:05 walterbender but these days that is not enough
19:05 icarito_ walterbender, just a not `afordancias` is the spanish term used for `affordances`
19:05 at least back in Cognitive Science class
19:06 walterbender icarito_, I cannot speak for France, but in my country these days, it seems we are hostile to everyone
19:06 I won't get started on the irony of the situation
19:07 icarito_ hostile? I was giving feedback on your paper's spanish translation
19:07 * paper's title
19:07 walterbender icarito_, oh. I was still on the visa topic
19:07 llaske refugee in France is a big problem. Lot of people would like to go to England
19:07 walterbender llaske, it is a big problem here too
19:08 everyone wants to go to France :)
19:08 icarito_ you're welcome ;-)
19:08 llaske :-)
19:08 tony37 walter my problem is that I am going to Europython in Rimini. If Samson goes to Bordeaux, I need to drive 2km. If not, I may skip the Scratch conference
19:08 walterbender icarito_, I didn't do the translation... was done by the RED editors in ESP
19:09 Rishabh42 has quit IRC
19:09 kaametza tony37, you may want t address such issues by mail?
19:09 llaske I will be at the Scratch conference with Bastien. We've got a talk planned on Sugarizer
19:09 tony37 kaametza last month the email was full of discussion of Samson's visa. This month there has been nothing.
19:09 kaametza we have only 1 hour for 3 large topics:      Reducing SLOBs to 5 seats instead of 7
19:09    Discuss using http://loomio.org/ as a discussion forum
19:09    Financial report first quarter 2017
19:10 walterbender kaametza, OK... let's start then
19:10 #topic reduce SLOB to 5 members
19:10 kaametza, wanna explain your thinking?
19:11 kaametza walterbender,  I believ you included the topic for today?
19:11 *believe
19:11 walterbender kaametza, I will look at the page history to see
19:12 I recall someone raising the topic
19:12 icarito_ i think I propsed this about a year ago, but you resucitated it recently
19:12 kaametza I asked opnly to the ommunity once, only answer I got was from James Cameron who suggested that it might also be a good idea to increase the number...
19:12 *openly
19:13 **community
19:13 llaske What's wrong with 7 members. It seems we've got enough candidates for 7
19:14 walterbender https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/ind[…]0223&oldid=100220
19:15 I think the issue is not 5 vs 7 but something else
19:15 kaametza llaske, question is if we want to take decisions with 3 possitive votes
19:15 or keep our current 4 possitive votes requirement
19:16 walterbender kaametza, I think we may want to think about 3 votes as passing if only 1 or 2 are anti
19:16 we have a lot of abstaining
19:16 kaametza I guess the issue came after so much absences from current slobs
19:16 walterbender which is essentially a no in the current schema
19:17 so maybe 3 is enough as along as it is a mojority
19:17 I am OK with something like that
19:17 llaske I think it's better to have a large majority for decisions, so 4 is okay for me
19:18 kaametza @walterbender,  it will mean to elect 2 seats for upcomming election's?
19:19 otherwise it would be 4 seats for elections
19:19 walterbender I thought it was 3 seats
19:20 kaametza I guess we should consider this as well, if we don't have a lot candidates it might be a good idea to reduce the seats
19:20 walterbender kaametza, has there been any outreach? I have seen none
19:21 kaametza walterbender, none we do need to define dates and tool
19:21 walterbender llaske, what if we had some mechanism for requiring a vote: yes, no, abstain  as oppose to not voting at all?
19:21 kaametza walterbender, the good news is we have made progress on the member's list
19:21 walterbender kaametza, yes. thank you
19:21 llaske may be we could use a voting tool instead of requiring votes by mail
19:21 walterbender kaametza, in the past, the membership committee has handled elections
19:22 llaske, if you think that would get the vote???
19:22 kaametza walterbender, abstain is = to no, nut I do agree it would be valuable to have all votes clearly stated
19:22 *but
19:23 maybe: yes, no, and "I need more information"
19:25 walterbender kaametza, I agree... but even after more info there could be a reason to abstain
19:25 kaametza, my frustration is the sound of silence
19:26 sverma walterbender: I think that a different mechanism to publish a motion and vote on it would help. Something that is different than email or irc
19:26 llaske +1 sverma
19:27 sverma I miss request for votes partly because it's embedded somebody no threat, and partly of course because I haven't been paying attention.
19:27 kaametza sverma, maybe implement a Sugar Activity? I think we should reflect and measure slobs statistics...
19:27 sverma Threat=thread
19:27 walterbender I don't know how a change of tools will help, but I am willing to try
19:27 sverma Kaametza: that would mean that I would actually have to use sugar ;-)
19:28 I'll look to see what others use
19:28 kaametza sverma, that would be lovely
19:29 I guess we, as slobs need to foresee that the 140+ community members could help us make decisions
19:30 I think we can afford to invest on a Sugar Activity that will help us with the decision-making process
19:32 sverma Openstack Community uses a web-based voting process. All the motions and statements are online. An automated system emails the members asking them to vote, with a specific link.  It also reminds members if they haven't voted
19:32 walterbender kaametza, maybe a JS activity that can also work in Sugarizer and the browser?
19:33 Rishabh42 <Rishabh42!~Rishabh42@> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:33 kaametza walterbender, +1
19:34 walterbender there are lots of tools out there... any favorites?
19:34 llaske I think the Openstack community tools is better. I don't see the interest to have a Sugar/Sugarizer activity to vote.
19:35 walterbender llaske, we have a polling activity
19:35 it is a bit primitive
19:35 kaametza we need to define a tool for upcomming elections as well
19:35 walterbender but it has pedagogical value
19:36 llaske Ok in this context but for SLOB we need a more professional tool
19:37 walterbender llaske, agreed. but whatever we use I think could be of interest to Sugar users
19:37 but perhaps we solve one problem at a time
19:37 sverma https://governance.openstack.org/election/
19:38 walterbender I am open to trying anything with the goal of getting broader participation by SLOB members
19:39 Rishabh42 has quit IRC
19:39 icarito_ there are 3 different issues: 1 SLOB participation - 2 SLOB election - 3 Community participation
19:39 the board should focus on one at a time
19:39 imho
19:40 tony37 I thought the discussion was about voting on motions
19:41 icarito_ tony37, yes that would be issue #1
19:41 walterbender which is the current topic
19:41 icarito_ the topic is actually "reducing from 7 to 5 slobs" i think
19:42 walterbender icarito_, and we have been discussing the meta issue which is participation
19:42 I think the conclusion is that we will try a different voting schema to see if we can get 7 to work
19:43 is that what everyone else concludes?
19:43 icarito_ I'd be happy to see more voting on motions to begin with
19:43 so no motion on this topic then?
19:43 sverma Walterbender: Yes
19:44 walterbender icarito_, I suppose we could have a motion about voting on motions using OpenStack
19:45 icarito_ walterbender, I suppose this is the same than topic #2, loomio, then?
19:45 walterbender icarito_, loomio would be another approach.
19:45 icarito_ I haven't heard of OpenStack but as long as in line with Sugar Labs's organizational principles (of transparency, etc)
19:46 * OpenStack [governance tools]
19:46 walterbender +1
19:46 icarito_ I suppose this needs a champion or it won't go anywhere? Are other SLOBs willing to vote on a platform?
19:47 kaametza I'm not sure SLOBs will participate more using an additional tool, also not sure who/how this instances will be managed?
19:47 icarito_ I also don't see how changing the tool would increase participation
19:47 it's already as easy as Reply +1 or -1 to email
19:47 can't imagine it being easier
19:47 so it's not the tool
19:47 walterbender I am also skeptical, but willing to try
19:47 icarito_ imho
19:48 walterbender but management of the tool is an issue
19:48 kaametza I like the idea of a Sugar/Sugarizer activity because it has pedagogical value as Walter mentioned
19:48 llaske I'm in favor of a tool, on the previous motion we've got a large pollution of e-mail
19:48 sverma I'll do some homework on tools
19:48 walterbender +1
19:49 sverma, please do some homework and iwe can use the tool to make a vote on the tool?
19:49 llaske nice idea :-)
19:49 kaametza sverma, no offence but promises of work need to be fullfiled also :D
19:49 sverma Kaametza: No promises. None whatsoever.
19:49 Hrishi has quit IRC
19:50 walterbender sverma, then I guess we need to find someone else to do the work since we need to resolve the issue...
19:51 kaametza we need SLOBs to pay attention :D
19:52 icarito_ maybe a tool to send daily reminders "you have a motion pending vote"
19:53 kaametza give visibility to the community on past, present and future decisions is a must - I guess I can ask on devel to see if anyone might be interested in implementing a simple sugar/sugarizer solution fo us
19:55 tony37 as a matter of curiousity - how many motions have been moved and seconded for the current board and how many have failed because SLOBS failed to respond?
19:55 kaametza tony37, partly of course because I haven't been paying attention.
19:55 sverma_ <sverma_!~sverma@> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:55 kaametza sorry I meant https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]t_Board/Decisions
19:55 sverma has quit IRC
19:56 kaametza tony37, a simple sugar/sugarizer tool should give us an easy look to such statistics
19:57 walterbender we've consumed an hour on this and seem to have lost sverma and our quorum :(
19:57 icarito_ would be hard for a volunteer to tackle
19:57 imho
19:57 walterbender I have gleaned the following from the conversation:
19:57 kaametza walterbender, shall we end meeting and continue next topic by mail?
19:57 sverma_ has quit IRC
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19:57 icarito_ it's a challenge, if discussions don't happen before the meeting and no motions are made
19:58 walterbender (1) we need to send daily notifications to SLOB members to get them to "pay attention"
19:58 sverma_ has quit IRC
19:58 walterbender (2) there is a preference for a non-email/non-irc solution to voting
19:59 kaametza walterbender, another valid strategy to get SLOBs attention would be to give more visibility to decisions to community
19:59 walterbender kaametza, not sure what to do beyond the wiki, this IRC channel and sending emails
20:00 sverma <sverma!~sverma@dhcp-sci177-18.sfsu.edu> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:00 kaametza a sugar/sugarizer activity could do the job
20:00 tony37 kaametza - I see 7 motions of which 3 were approved and 4 failed.
20:00 walterbender kaametza, I think we could build a wrapper around an existing tool
20:01 maybe the openstack tool
20:01 I have not looked at the code
20:01 icarito_ perhaps loomio has an API
20:01 walterbender icarito_, maybe
20:01 I don't have the cycles right now to write this tool myself.
20:02 I guess we have exhausted #topic 1 for the moment :P
20:03 icarito_ if SLOBs wrote a spec and made a call for proposals...
20:03 perhaps would be one model to explore
20:03 kaametza walterbender, just to close it, we will have elections of 4 seats then, right?
20:03 tony37 The conclusion being that there is no reason to change the numbers of members of SLOBS?
20:03 walterbender kaametza, I think it is 3 new seats
20:03 icarito_ there were 3 new SLOBs last period
20:04 kaametza walterbender, we had 3 the last time (Samson, Ignacio and me)
20:04 walterbender Oh. Then we have 4 this time. You are correct.
20:05 sverma, CanoeBerry2 walterbender and llaske are up
20:05 kaametza, I will run again. where do I sign up?
20:05 kaametza any suggestion for the elections committe on tools and dates?
20:05 walterbender kaametza, is there a plan for canvas the community for candidates?
20:06 kaametza, i thought you guys had decided on August
20:06 Ifeanyi <Ifeanyi!~androirc@> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:06 walterbender has a memory like a steel sieve
20:06 Ifeanyi Sorry I'm very late. Please help with the log. Thanks
20:07 kaametza walterbender, yes but getting the list debugged took a little longer that planned, so October sounds more reasonable to give enought time for candidates if you guys agree
20:08 walterbender http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]ng/meetings/today
20:08 Ifeanyi, ^^
20:08 kaametza, I defer to the committee
20:08 kaametza ok, will keep you all in the loop
20:09 walterbender kaametza, thank you
20:09 moving on
20:09 #topic Loomiio
20:10 maybe the API is suitable for resolving both issues
20:10 and maybe it is better for those who don't seem comfortable in IRC
20:11 so we can reach more of our community
20:11 but I don't know.
20:11 any comments?
20:12 anyone have positive or negative experiences with this tool?
20:12 tony37 is the intent to replace a scheduled meeting with a continuous one?
20:12 walterbender tony37, more to extend the scheduled meetings into an ongoing discussion with the community
20:13 a place to chime in between meetings
20:13 IRC is not great for that
20:13 tony37 You need a method which is not dependent on time zones
20:14 walterbender and email lists seem to be out of vogue
20:14 sverma I haven't used it. I've used Slack for other projects.
20:14 It's under GNU Affero General Public License v3.0
20:14 walterbender sverma, Slack is AGPL?
20:14 sverma No, Loomio
20:14 Not a fan of Slack
20:15 walterbender sverma, yes... that was one of the attraction
20:15 sverma Loomio looks interesting
20:16 Ifeanyi has quit IRC
20:16 walterbender I think the only way to resolve these sorts of things is to jump into the deep end and try it
20:16 maybe we can start a loomio discussion about voting
20:16 kill two birds with one stone
20:16 Ifeanyi <Ifeanyi!~androirc@> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:17 kaametza +1 walterbender let's also read https://loomio.gitbooks.io/man[…]s_of_service.html
20:17 llaske +1
20:17 sverma Is the intention to use Loomio's service, or run our own instance?
20:18 walterbender sverma, I think we can start with their service and if we like it, run our own instance
20:18 sverma ok
20:18 kaametza sverma, we should explore both scenarios
20:19 question is who will mange our own instance?
20:19 *manage
20:19 walterbender kaametza, we can ask scg to look into that once we decide if we want to use the service
20:20 icarito_ last time we looked at loomio it didn't fit SLOBs because all participants could vote
20:20 walterbender I don't think it will be difficult, but i don't want to ask him until we have a better feel for whtat we want
20:20 icarito_ we want participants without voting power being able to see the discussion and votes
20:20 perhaps loomio can be changed into that
20:20 walterbender icarito_, we can still have a formal vote for SLOBs
20:20 the way we do now... or with OpenStack
20:21 icarito_ walterbender, yes but not sure everyone will be able to see it or comment
20:21 walterbender even in IRC we welcome everyone to express there opinion on motions
20:21 so I am not worried about that
20:22 #action Walter will launch a loomio discussion
20:23 Ifeanyi I think the more the voting process is open at this initial stage of testing, the better the process will become
20:23 walterbender Ifeanyi, +1
20:23 anything else on this topic?
20:23 kaametza walterbender, yes it will work only if anyone on the community will be able to see the discussions and the votes, correct?
20:24 walterbender kaametza, I will try to set it up as open as possible
20:24 kaametza thx @walterbender
20:25 walterbender #topic finances
20:25 icarito_ i tried on the hosted version, but failed, perhaps they added it or we'll need to host it ourselves
20:25 walterbender w/o CanoeBerry2 I am not sure we can discuss this
20:25 kaametza walterbender, is CanoeBerry2 officially our Finantial Manager?
20:25 walterbender maybe CanoeBerry2 can send an email update?
20:26 kaametza +1
20:26 Ifeanyi +1
20:26 walterbender kaametza, he is officially our liaison to the SFC, who manages our books
20:26 kaametza ok
20:26 walterbender anything else for today?
20:26 kaametza not from me, have a great weekend everyone
20:27 walterbender thanks everyone for hanging in there
20:27 I will try to get the loomio thread going ASAP
20:27 #end-meeting
20:27 meeting Meeting ended Fri Jul  7 20:27:24 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
20:27 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-07T19:01:34.html
20:27 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]17-07-07T19:01:34
20:27 Ifeanyi Thank you...... happy weekend
20:27 llaske Bye all
20:28 sverma bye
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20:29 llaske has quit IRC
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