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#sugar-meeting, 2016-06-03

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Time Nick Message
00:57 pikurasa <pikurasa!~Thunderbi@2601:184:4200:2904:30f1:d7f0:68be:94b2> has joined #sugar-meeting
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11:47 walterbender hemant_kasat, I was just going to write to you about the playback
11:48 samtoday <samtoday!~samtoday@124-171-72-79.dyn.iinet.net.au> has joined #sugar-meeting
11:48 walterbender you have a list of note value times determined by the subdivisions of the cells
11:49 you should be able to calculate a sequence of, for example, 8, 8, 4, 8, 8, 4
11:49 just play those back with a drum
11:49 hemant_kasat, make sense?
11:49 hemant_kasat, here are a few more thoughts:
11:51 (1) each time you divide a cell, you should rerender all of the cells in a "zerba" pattern -- every other cell either lighter or darker
11:51 hemant_kasat walterbender , yes it makes sense
11:51 walterbender hemant_kasat, (2) you can do an undo button by simply restoring the innerHTML of the state before the last division
11:52 so just push it onto a heap each time before dividing
11:52 then undo just pops
11:53 hemant_kasat walterbender , (1) do you mean when select a cell it should a have a different color other than all the cells ?
11:53 walterbender (3) so I have been thinking about how to specify multiple rows
11:53 why not use drum blocks as triggers
11:53 iamutkarshtiwari Hi! icarito
11:54 walterbender each time you encounter a drum block you start a new row with that drum
11:54 hemant_kasat, that can be a goal for next week
11:54 lets get playback, undo and save working first.
11:55 hemant_kasat walterbender , for playback , should i have argument for choosing drum ?
11:58 walterbender , and also did you check again the issue we were talking about ?
12:00 walterbender hemant_kasat, I think the DEFAULTDRUM is fine for playback for now
12:00 mohayon <mohayon!~mohayon@> has joined #sugar-meeting
12:00 walterbender hemant_kasat, I looked at your latest commit from yesterday. It fixes the division problem, but the button placement is a bit awkward
12:01 good morning/afternoon/evening everyone
12:01 llaske hi
12:01 walterbender shall we begin with some updates?
12:01 hemant_kasat walterbender ,  I know it is , but i will fix that up
12:01 lp1 hi
12:01 walterbender who'd like to start? lp1 ?
12:01 iamutkarshtiwari Hi
12:01 lp1 Sure !
12:02 llaske start-meeting ?
12:02 AbrahmAB <AbrahmAB!3b5dcd73@gateway/web/freenode/ip.> has joined #sugar-meeting
12:02 walterbender #start-meeting
12:02 meeting Meeting started Fri Jun  3 12:02:34 2016 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:02 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
12:02 walterbender #topic updates
12:04 lp1 So, this week I worked on the Java (Android) JavaScript interaction, I have a custom activity running and added a sugarizeros.js file to my plugin, this way it is injected directly into the Cordova build. I found how to create java methods that I can call within JavaScript and I checked that none of the Sugarizer apps were broken by my changes. I looked at the MusicBlocks too but I'm not sure what
12:04 issue you were refering to walterbender, I checked the block deletion but It was working fine for me
12:05 walterbender lp1, it is a problem with tone.js
12:05 lp1 I updated my blog http://lp1-eu.blogspot.fr/ with the last week's content and I'm writing an article about Cordova's Android methods calls for future reference
12:05 walterbender I cannot hear any sound
12:05 lp1, do you get sound?
12:06 AbrahmAB This week I worked on setting up project-view in journal, add-new entry feature, add-new participant  and refactoring metadata
12:06 hemant_kasat I have a basic ruler ready which can be dissected into parts according to the input given and then the parts can recursively be divided into different parts.
12:06 samtoday AbrahmAB: hello!
12:07 lp1 walterbender Oh ok ! I see the related issue now ! No I don't. Ok, I have to check how toneJS is working, I tried to debug with Chrome on Android but since it didn't show any relevant error I was lost :)
12:07 samtoday AbrahmAB: did you get the model working for add-new participants?  (the collab code?)
12:07 walterbender lp1, if you could investigate, would be great. thx
12:07 lp1 walterbender Ok, I'm looking into it
12:07 hemant_kasat Now I will work on playback sound according to note values got by dividing the ruler and then a undo for the divisions made.
12:08 AbrahmAB samtoday: I am working on filtering the list yet. After that I will work on collab code!
12:08 samtoday AbrahmAB: awsome
12:08 AbrahmAB: do did you find a way to put the query in the query dict?
12:09 AbrahmAB samtoday: Not yet :( But I will figure it out soon.
12:09 samtoday don't worry about it
12:09 you should really ask some questions if you want
12:09 AbrahmAB samtoday: yes sure
12:09 samtoday b/c walterbender probably knows if there is any documentation for the sugar datastore query format
12:10 pikurasa (I am here, reading through log from 7:50 a.m.)
12:10 walterbender AbrahmAB, I will take a look and see what I can find
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12:11 AbrahmAB samtoday, walterbender: okay I will ask you both if I couldn't solve the issue
12:11 pikurasa walterbender, hemant_kasat: I like the "zebra" color idea.
12:11 AbrahmAB samtoday: I will try to wish the collab code (online one) asap till monday :)
12:12 After we could proceed with the offline syncing (version control and all)
12:12 iamutkarshtiwari icarito: Mr. Anderson is travelling. He wouldn't be able to make today possibly.
12:12 AbrahmAB samtoday: is that cool?
12:12 samtoday AbrahmAB: awsome!  Can you try to do the online one based on the master branch?
12:12 I emailed you a way to think about it seperated from the "project" ideas,
12:12 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, we've had an email discussion
12:12 samtoday and I don't think that it works like that
12:12 walterbender have you seen it?
12:13 samtoday so, we could probably get that upstreamed very quickly
12:13 iamutkarshtiwari walterbender: Hello Mr. Bender. Yes I saw it. It's about the 'save as' feature discussion.
12:13 AbrahmAB samtoday: I will look into that
12:13 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, is there a feature page for all of these proposed changes?
12:13 samtoday +1
12:14 AbrahmAB: but it is all looking good so far!
12:14 AbrahmAB samtoday: I may face some issues will working with collab so be ready :D
12:14 samtoday :)
12:15 AbrahmAB: do you have a working test environment for collab?  Have you been able to share an activity and a file between 2 sugar instances on your computer?
12:15 iamutkarshtiwari walterbender: Here is the blog I wrote for my progress till date - https://iamutkarshtiwari.wordpress.com/ . and here is the feature page for 'save as' - https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]enshotDialogPopup
12:15 walterbender looks
12:16 pikurasa I am looking, too.
12:16 AbrahmAB samtoday: I have shared the chat activity bet 2 sugar instances
12:16 samtoday awsome, so the text channels work
12:16 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, that seems to be specific to savescreenshot
12:16 AbrahmAB But other activities like Write didnt worked :(
12:16 walterbender seems like a nice solution
12:16 samtoday have you been able to work the journal "send-to" feature AbrahmAB?
12:17 walterbender not clear what happens when you hit 'cancel'
12:17 AbrahmAB samtoday: yes "send-to" works well
12:17 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, ^^
12:17 pikurasa iamutkarshtiwari: Good start to the blog.
12:17 iamutkarshtiwari walterbender: I have been busy with my exams this week so couldn't make much progress. But will soon get to the speed after exams get over.
12:17 samtoday AbrahmAB: Write used the telepahty "Tubes", which are deprecated and don't work with all accounts.  There are patches to port write, but the maintainer hasn't merged them :`(
12:18 pikurasa iamutkarshtiwari: Maybe in the next blogs have some "This is what I learned" sections.
12:18 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, it is important to have clarity around the feature proposal so as to save heading down dead ends
12:18 samtoday I suppose it's just like I don't merge any patches quickly
12:18 AbrahmAB samtoday: anyother activity that could be used for testing the collab?
12:18 iamutkarshtiwari walterbender: When we hit 'cancel', the current running activity instance is not saved in the journal(in short- discarded)
12:18 samtoday AbrahmAB: the latest version of bibliography activity (3? 4?) uses CollabWrapper.  Maybe just test that one?
12:19 iamutkarshtiwari pikurasa: I wrote that whole blog yesterday :P
12:19 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, am an not sure cancel says the same as discard
12:19 AbrahmAB samtoday: great
12:20 samtoday walterbender: [unrelated] do you have thoughts on me merging bug fixes for sugar{,-toolkit-gtk3} that I have written, but nobody else has reviewed (in last 2 weeks)?
12:21 (and sugar-artwork)
12:21 walterbender samtoday, I will try to do some reviews... been busy with my day job lately :P
12:21 samtoday :)
12:21 pikurasa iamutkarshtiwari: I recommend it for the future blogs, to keep log of your development as coder.
12:22 iamutkarshtiwari walterbender: Usually what happens is when we click 'stop' button, the activity closes and a jobject of that instance gets saved in the Journal. What if the user doesn't want to save that instance. He can simply do so by clicking 'cancel/discard' button on the save as alert which popups up while closing to save Journal clutter.
12:22 samtoday AbrahmAB: If you're ever waiting on reviews or anything, maybe just take another look at the decptively hard patch that is; https://github.com/sugarlabs/s[…]kit-gtk3/pull/313
12:23 AbrahmAB samtoday: yes I will work on it :)
12:24 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, the details of how to not save is complex
12:24 iamutkarshtiwari, because for most activities, they are saved in the background long before any dialog or hitting the exit button
12:24 iamutkarshtiwari walterbender: It's simply like what happens when we close an unsaved document in LibreOffice.
12:25 AbrahmAB samtoday: have u tested my code https://github.com/sugarlabs/s[…]-projectlist-view
12:25 iamutkarshtiwari walterbender: We'll need to interrupt that saving with the alert. That's the main challenge.
12:25 AbrahmAB samtoday: any improvements till now>
12:25 improvements needed??
12:25 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, I am saying that we'll need to find the associated jobject and remove it
12:26 iamutkarshtiwari walterbender: For that we need to make changes in activity.py file.
12:27 samtoday AbrahmAB: err, I'll check it out now
12:28 AbrahmAB samtoday: the toolbutton with 'emblem-question' will redirect to lists of projects
12:28 and then back again to traditional view
12:29 samtoday AbrahmAB: please add projectview.py to the jarabe.journal makefile.am
12:30 and friendslistpopup to jarabe.view
12:31 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, that could be a bit tricky
12:31 samtoday AbrahmAB: and activitychooser in jarabe.desktop :)
12:32 iamutkarshtiwari walterbender: Mr. Anderson pointed me in that direction.
12:32 pikurasa hemant_kasat: There is a bug when you click "cancel" in the dialogue box. The rhythm ruler sectors disappear.
12:32 samtoday AbrahmAB: oh wait it is there already.  My sugar-build is confused
12:32 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, we prob. want to add some glue for deleting entries
12:32 AbrahmAB samtoday: forced push with changes
12:33 :)
12:33 hemant_kasat pikurasa , thanks for pointing out ,  i will see it .
12:35 samtoday AbrahmAB: I'm getting the "ImportError: cannot import name ActivityChooser", I think you renamed it ObjectChooser
12:35 shell.log - http://paste.fedoraproject.org/374051/14649573
12:35 iamutkarshtiwari walterbender: That seems like a right thing to do. But if we could make activity.py not save the jobject until user provides an input in the alert, it would be better I guess?
12:36 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, no
12:36 hemant_kasat pikurasa , yes it was because i wasn't checking for the input number is null or not ,  checked it , now it works fine , i will push it
12:37 pikurasa hemant_kasat, walterbender: I noticed that you can put in decimal numbers and it seems to work. I think I like that. (.5 makes two whole note length)
12:37 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, it is important that we save to the journal early and often
12:37 so you don't ever lose work
12:37 iamutkarshtiwari walterbender: But with the 'save as' feature we are giving the user the choice to decide whether we wan't to save or discard the current work/
12:38 he*
12:39 AbrahmAB samtoday: fixed error
12:39 hemant_kasat pikurasa ,  i saw it , just have to check, it is integer or not
12:39 iamutkarshtiwari wont' that interfere with Journal's 'save early and often' policy?
12:40 walterbender: ^
12:40 pikurasa hemant_kasat: I like that you can put in decimals. Negative numbers, however, should not be accepted.
12:40 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, this is why I was saying the discard needs to remove the object, not just never write it
12:41 iamutkarshtiwari walterbender: Oh..yes! I get it. It's better than the previous 'not writing' strategy.
12:41 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, I think we need a separate feature page for this than just the screensave as this is a more general change
12:43 iamutkarshtiwari walterbender: Apologies. I sent you the wrong link :( I haven't yet made a feature page for "save As'
12:43 Will do it by today.
12:43 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, you may want to look at how the Journal deletes entties
12:43 hemant_kasat pikurasa , walterbender ,  just had a thought for undo ,   why don't we save the input number in a heap and then when we want to undo , we give the reverse of the input number to the function of dissection , in this way one of the cell divided earlier will be again of same width and the rest can be deleted .
12:44 walterbender hemant_kasat, yes... but you can do this simply by restoring the innerHTML
12:44 or you can recalculate everything
12:44 your choice
12:44 iamutkarshtiwari, I am worried about race conditions
12:45 samtoday AbrahmAB: That's looking brillant!  A few little UI things, but I will properly test it in the morning.  ttyl
12:45 samtoday has quit IRC
12:45 AbrahmAB samtoday: ty :)
12:45 hemant_kasat walterbender , pikurasa , actually when pikurasa said it is accepting decimal and then i tried then it striked me
12:45 iamutkarshtiwari walterbender: What race conditions?
12:46 pikurasa hemant_kasat: Try what you think will work.
12:46 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, I worry that when you delete, the activity may be trying to save
12:46 so it could be a race
12:46 something to investigate
12:47 hemant_kasat pikurasa , walterbender ,  i will see which is best for the undo and i will do that
12:49 iamutkarshtiwari walterbender: Should be try running a thread(to delete that particular instance) which can wait until the saving is done?
12:49 pikurasa hemant_kasat: Great! If you are unsure or want to compare, that is what git branches are for.
12:49 walterbender iamutkarshtiwari, it merits investigation
12:49 hemant_kasat pikurasa ,  yes !!
12:49 walterbender have we heard from everyone?
12:50 pikurasa hemant_kasat: Please write up weekly blog posts of your "adventures with music blocks"
12:50 (as I have asked before)
12:51 hemant_kasat pikurasa , I will write a blog post in one or two days
12:51 pikurasa hemant_kasat: wonderful.
12:54 hemant_kasat ok !! ttyl !!
12:54 pikurasa Okay, I am going to go. Thank you!
12:54 walterbender thanks everyone
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12:55 walterbender anything else for today?
12:55 mohayon_ <mohayon_!~mohayon@2a01:e35:139d:ecf0:c68e:8fff:fef6:ca15> has joined #sugar-meeting
12:55 walterbender #end-meeting
12:55 meeting Meeting ended Fri Jun  3 12:55:55 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
12:55 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-03T12:02:34.html
12:55 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]16-06-03T12:02:34
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18:07 davelab6 when is the SLOB meeting?
18:08 ah, in 1 hour
18:09 satellit davelab6  I am no longer able to upload files to tgilliard    how do I redo my pub/private keys?
18:10 lost in computer crash
18:17 CanoeBerry_ I fear I will be late, arriving after 19UTC.  My apologies.
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18:42 GrannieB This page doesn't look right. There is no list of names on the right side. Is there another link?
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18:53 ElVerma <ElVerma!~urk@2602:306:ccab:6470:227c:8fff:fe44:22bc> has joined #sugar-meeting
18:54 walterbender ElVerma, hi
18:55 tony37 <tony37!~tony@p5B3FB502.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined #sugar-meeting
18:55 ElVerma Greetings!
18:55 tony37 Hello
18:55 walterbender we have tony37 too
18:55 any other SLOB members?
18:56 meeting * Jose_Miguel-es has joined
18:56 GrannieB_ Adam was here earlier
18:56 JM_ <JM_!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
18:56 walterbender hey JM_
18:56 we have a quorum :)
18:56 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> Hello!
18:56 <Jose_Miguel-es> Excellent!
18:56 GrannieB_ Hola
18:57 walterbender JM_, I gave your name to someone I met at an MIT conference the other day
18:57 he works for Latu/Ceibal
18:57 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> *OK.
18:57 walterbender and is ignorant of what is happening in the rest of UY
18:57 so I was hoping he'd reach out to you
18:57 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> :(
18:58 walterbender JM_, Crisobal Cobo
18:58 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> It will be attended...
18:58 <Jose_Miguel-es> If, I know it. I conversed with the some times, but clearly does not situate me...
18:59 walterbender JM_, I pointed him at many things... hopefully he will follow up
19:00 CanoeBerry_ <CanoeBerry_!62d94703@gateway/web/freenode/ip.> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:00 CanoeBerry_ Hi
19:00 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> It directs the Foundation *Ceibal...
19:00 llaske <llaske!~chatzilla@AVelizy-152-1-45-235.w82-120.abo.wanadoo.fr> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:00 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> Hello!
19:00 llaske hi all
19:00 walterbender hi llaske
19:01 OK. let's begin
19:01 #start-meeting
19:01 meeting Meeting started Fri Jun  3 19:01:08 2016 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:01 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
19:01 walterbender #topic updates
19:01 before we jump into the motions, I'd like to update the board on a few things
19:02 (1) I am in touch with several organizations who are interested in Sugar at some level
19:02 llaske Nice
19:02 walterbender the discussions are at a very preliminary level
19:02 one is an effort to set up schools world-wide
19:03 llaske cool
19:03 walterbender another is with a service provider who is interested in folding some of our work into their own
19:03 davelab6 satellit: i have no idea, i dont have a shell account... i suggest you send your new pub key to the systems@ list
19:03 walterbender I don't mention names here as it is not at that stage yet.
19:03 CanoeBerry_ When you can share more what kind of "service provider" great, even vaguely..
19:03 satellit k
19:03 walterbender CanoeBerry_, software services of the highest quality
19:04 but they are not FOSS
19:04 so we need to find a common ground
19:04 CanoeBerry_ Right.
19:04 davelab6 cool!
19:04 walterbender anyway, this was just a heads up. hopefully more to report next month
19:04 davelab6 exciting!
19:04 walterbender a few other things
19:04 ElVerma As long as they follow the license, it should be ok.
19:05 walterbender Sam Parkinson will be the release manager for the next release
19:05 CanoeBerry_ In other news, Karen Sandler has been very helpful getting many legal/financial issues organized, but we are not there yet on Samson Goddy's Yoruba contract and a few others items. Karen is working on getting a PayPal donation button ready per Sean Daly & others requests.
19:05 walterbender Tincho will be helping him
19:05 llaske Will be cool to have the PayPal button
19:06 walterbender thought we had one once a long time ago
19:06 ElVerma Do we have a published agenda for today? Curious\=
19:07 CanoeBerry_ Frustrating that Facebook will not fully confirm our SL Facebook page, until a Non-Public / Official Sugar Labs document is provided, but hopefully that's advancing too.
19:07 walterbender two more updates from me: (1) GSoC wrapped up its second week
19:07 lots of progress
19:07 and (2) I will be in Chile in two weeks, meeting with the Foundation that Cecilia (formally of Paraguay Educa) is part of.
19:07 I'll see what I can do re Sugar in Chile :)
19:08 @ ElVerma In the wiki
19:08 #link https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]oard#Agenda_items
19:08 any other updates?
19:08 if not, let's jump in to the list of motions
19:08 ElVerma thx
19:09 walterbender #topic Finance Manager
19:09 there are four separate motions
19:09 icarito walterbender, do ping werner and patricio of sugar labs chile
19:09 walterbender #link https://docs.google.com/docume[…]OUEX0ICRUkOc/edit
19:09 tony37 Could we have each motion on the log before consideration. So many changes that I have lost track of what the motion currently is.
19:09 icarito and share with the community the purpose of your trip ;-)
19:09 walterbender icarito, on my list :)
19:09 CanoeBerry_ Advance apologies I have a serious offline situation I have to attend to @ 19:30UTC, and so will be offline then.
19:10 walterbender CanoeBerry_, we can solicit your vote by email
19:10 Motion A: To replace existing bylaw for Finance Manager
19:11 It is a lot of text... I can copy it all here when it is time to vote
19:11 does anyone second the motion?
19:11 tony37 That is needed. This one has seemed to change daily.
19:11 walterbender tony37, ok
19:11 one second
19:11 Motion A: To replace existing bylaw for Finance Manager from:
19:11 Existing:
19:11 The Finance Manager is an ex officio, non-voting officer taking care of Sugar Labs' Finance.
19:11 Currently, this position is vacant.
19:11 Proposed:
19:11 The Finance Manager shall be appointed by a majority vote of the Sugar Labs Oversight Board and may be either a non-voting officer or one of the current Oversight Board members. The Finance Manager will serve at the will of the Board and may be removed and replaced by a majority vote of the Board if necessary.
19:12 Currently, this position is vacant.
19:12 Duties of the Finance Manager will be to:
19:12 1. Work with the Software Freedom Conservancy to manage all Sugar Labs monetary disbursements
19:12 2. report monthly in advance of the scheduled monthly Oversight Board Meeting the following:
19:12 Balance at the beginning of the month
19:12 Expenses during the month (with summary/mini-budget details for each expense)
19:12 Income received during the month
19:12 Balance at the end of the month
19:12 To carry out these duties, the Finance Manager will need to assert familiarity with using the Software Freedom Conservancy accounting system “Ledger” (see details at http://ledger-cli.org and http://k.sfconservancy.org/npo-ledger-cli).
19:12 This Finance Manager’s  Report shall be available as a full text on the wiki.sugarlabs.org website at least 72 hours before the regularly scheduled meeting. A simple majority vote of the Sugar Labs Oversight Board shall be required for approval of the Finance Manager’s Report.
19:12 The Finance Manager, shall be paid a remuneration for their services In proportion to the expected workload. The SugarLabs Oversight Board shall set the initial amount and shall review and reapprove the amount of remuneration every 6 months. If this does not happen the remuneration will default to $0, but can be reinstated at any subsequent regular SLOB meeting.
19:12 Failure to carry out these duties for more than one meeting will result in removal and appointment of another Finance Manager.
19:12 GrannieB_ That's the gist of it!
19:13 walterbender We have discussed this ad nuaseum on the lists
19:13 llaske Do we vote for the appointment too ?
19:13 walterbender GrannieB, that is not the gist... it is the entire text
19:13 Claudia__ <Claudia__!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:13 walterbender llaske, that is a separate matter
19:13 hi Claudia__
19:13 Claudia__ Hello..
19:13 GrannieB_ right…. but it has the spirit of all the changes too
19:14 walterbender any more comments re this motion?
19:14 anyone care to second it?
19:14 tony37 I believe 'shall be paid' should say 'may be paid'
19:14 llaske +1 tony37
19:14 Claudia__ sorry doe being late.. I am at the cafe in newtonville to join the meeting
19:14 GrannieB_ Tony is right
19:14 walterbender Claudia__, I will past the link to the backlog
19:15 The Finance Manager, may be paid a remuneration for their services In proportion to the expected workload. The SugarLabs Oversight Board shall set the initial amount and shall review and reapprove the amount of remuneration every 6 months. If this does not happen the remuneration will default to $0, but can be reinstated at any subsequent regular SLOB meeting.
19:16 Claudia__ walterbender: please do
19:16 walterbender #link http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]16-06-03T19:01:08
19:16 tony37 The second sentence after the revision is not really needed. It could say 'Remuneration may be authorized by the Sugarlabs Oversight Board
19:16 davelab6 walterbender: we did have a paypal button in the wiki in an external file 'paypal.htm' or 'donate.htm' but I think it was lost in a wiki upgrade; i could not find any trace of it.
19:16 CanoeBerry_ I don't want to get hung up on technicalities, but the 4 reporting requirements ("beginning of the month" "during the month" and "end of the month" etc) are still very ambiguous, particularly when these must be reported 72hrs prior to the beginning-of-month meeting, and finding these numbers with a modicum of accuracy can sometimes be hard, even when FA has many weeks available.
19:16 walterbender any other comments?
19:17 CanoeBerry_ Some kind of "best effort" summary of how finances *actually& evolved since the prior month seems to be far more attainable :)
19:18 walterbender anything else?
19:18 CanoeBerry_ All of which assumes meetings remain monthly, near the beginning of the month..
19:19 walterbender presuming we clean up these ambiguities, is there interest in moving forward on this?
19:19 CanoeBerry_ I think so.
19:20 walterbender so... procedurally, can you clean things up so that ypou are comfortable seconding the motion?
19:21 it would be nice to take action one way or another on this today
19:21 CanoeBerry_ That's hard work, but probably necessary.
19:21 walterbender if it is hard work then we should do it offline and vote by email
19:22 tony37 Given that the Software Conservancy is being paid 10% of our income to handle the bookkeeping, is this not something the Board can handle directcly?
19:22 CanoeBerry_ Seems necessary unfortunately -- as I don't think we're satisfied with 2-month-old reporting, but some level of depth around recent financials is very hard to articulate.
19:22 GrannieB_ Motion B depends on Motion A so it might be nice to clean it up today
19:22 walterbender GrannieB, +1 to getting things cleaned up
19:23 CanoeBerry_ tony37: SFConservancy has sophisticated financial/reporting software, but its complexity is part of the challenge here.
19:23 davelab6 GrannieB_: im sorry to say it but i will be shocked if those 4 motions pass today; i can't see that any revisions can be made now and then passed immediately without further community review
19:23 there has been literally months to comment on caryls text
19:23 and now there are comments on the wording! :)
19:23 tony37 I am not referring to the software but the reporting. How many financial transactions has Sugar Labs had in the past quarter?
19:23 walterbender davelab6, oy
19:24 tony37, probably 5-6
19:24 CanoeBerry_ Conversely voting on the impossible (monthly reporting on a month that is not even complete, that cannot possibly happen) doesn't get us anywhere.
19:24 The 72hrs notice is admirable, but make the above 4 reporting requirements impossible, as it stands anyway.
19:25 GrannieB_ How about just one reporting requirement at each regularly scheduled SLOB meeting. I think that may be the way I originally wrote it. 72 hours in advance is nice so there are no nasty surprises but less would work too
19:25 tony37 Perhaps word the Motion A for a monthly report of transactions during the month and the resulting change in the books (based on the end of a calendar month).
19:25 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> In accordance with tony37
19:25 tony37 We appartently have about 2 transactions per month
19:26 walterbender tony37, in a busy month
19:26 CanoeBerry_ Wording needs to summarize the most recent month of financials, yes.  But what that means in practise depends on a few things behind the curtain, that will become more obvious along the road.
19:26 walterbender tony37, but that may change if motion B (2) passes :)
19:26 tony37 Need to know what that now says.
19:27 walterbender look... I agree we need to clean this up but let's do it off line
19:27 tony37 +1
19:27 walterbender we have too many other agenda items to get through
19:27 GrannieB_ Please
19:27 1 You have had months to work on this. Try to finish it today. It isn't rocket science!
19:28 walterbender CanoeBerry_ and tony37 : Can the two of you take responsibiliy for cleaning up the reporting language over the next 48 hours?
19:28 then, if someone seconds the motion, I will bring it up for an email vote
19:28 cjl <cjl!~chatzilla@2601:14b:8000:8d63:223:69ff:fe00:2e1c> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:28 tony37 During the past 30 days, I have received almost no emails regarding these motions until the day before yesterday when there have been dozens reflecting serious concerns.
19:29 I believe Caryl needs also to be involved.
19:29 walterbender tony37, let's not debug the process... let's just get things moving
19:29 GrannieB_ Tony! I sent several… over the past 6-8 weeks to the iaep list and others. How did you miss them?
19:29 CanoeBerry_ I can work on it, but 48 hours is impossible the financial issues therein are downright hairy even if I wasn't traveling :/
19:30 walterbender CanoeBerry_, tell us when you think you can have it done?
19:30 feels we owe it to the community to get this done in a timely fashion
19:30 GrannieB_ +1
19:30 llaske has quit IRC
19:30 tony37 Can we target the next board meeting?
19:31 CanoeBerry_ tony37: l agreed.  Getting it right is betting that fooling everyone; I'm completely unwilling to paste in a charade.
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19:31 CanoeBerry_ *better than fooling
19:31 walterbender CanoeBerry_, I object to that characterization
19:31 bernie_ has quit IRC
19:31 walterbender GrannieB, and davelab6 have put a lot of work into this
19:32 CanoeBerry_ A charade is an impossible goal.
19:32 llaske <llaske!~chatzilla@AVelizy-152-1-45-235.w82-120.abo.wanadoo.fr> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:32 walterbender and have sought omment
19:32 CanoeBerry_ I'm unwiling to be involved with that.
19:33 walterbender CanoeBerry_, noted.
19:33 well... we still need feedback and someone t work on the reporting language
19:33 any voluneteers?
19:33 GrannieB_ We have wasted 20 min discussing things that should have been done over the past 6-8 weeks. This is why SLOB is starting to resemble the US Congress
19:33 walterbender need not be a SLOB member
19:33 CanoeBerry_ I'm willing if false deadlines are not set.
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19:34 walterbender CanoeBerry_, again, so noted
19:34 tony37 Walter Bender Are you proposing a committee of me, Caryl, Dave, and Canoeberry to come up with motion(s) to be proposed at the next meeting?
19:34 CanoeBerry_ Getting financial reporting accurate/clear (and finding that balance) is fundamentally hard, as Karen Sandler and others are working with me on.
19:34 walterbender tony37, I am proposing that someone(s) work on the language
19:35 I don't have strong feelings about who
19:35 GrannieB_ We could do that. If so, motion B should be tabled pending action on motion A
19:35 davelab6 lol GrannieB_
19:35 walterbender but it should be addressed  sooner than later as we owe a responsible response to the hard work of our community members
19:35 GrannieB, I am afraid we need to move on to other motions
19:35 CanoeBerry_ I can organize a methodical suggestion yes, with Caryl, Dave, Tony, but have to run at this moment.
19:35 walterbender my apologies
19:36 davelab6 CanoeBerry_: any objection to using google docs?
19:36 walterbender doesn't know what a "methodical suggestion" is
19:37 davelab6 nor i
19:37 GrannieB_ OK Adam… will be in TX till Tues then LA then driving to MT. We can touch bases somewhere on the line. Whatever you guys want is ok with me… SKYPE maybe?
19:37 FTF is good even if it is virtual
19:38 davelab6 fine for me
19:38 CanoeBerry_ Financial realities about when reporting comes in and what's genuinely attainable, not voodoo handwaving about impossibly unattainable summaries, before they are possible.
19:38 walterbender next topic
19:38 #topic Vision Statement
19:38 there is a motion to approve a vision statement for 2016
19:39 #link https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]ion_proposal_2016
19:39 CanoeBerry_ Bradley Kuhn is especially helpful here: I'll see if he has time by phone in coming weeks, despite my traveling.  Then Caryl/Dave/Tony/I can consolidate a real-world suggestion.
19:39 davelab6 CanoeBerry_: weeks!!
19:39 icarito CanoeBerry_, I support davelab6's proposal to automate ledger file removal of personal information and autopublication
19:39 llaske Good idea to separate Vision and Goal
19:39 icarito it shuoldn't be that hard
19:39 walterbender llaske, +1
19:39 llaske Important to mention that Vision is not Mission
19:39 walterbender we should set the vision and let the community set goals
19:40 llaske The mission don't change
19:40 +1 walterbender
19:40 walterbender so
19:40 davelab6 CanoeBerry_: i understand you have to go but honestly i feel very frustrated with you right now, because you have had WEEKS to further comment on caryl's google doc, which you already commented on.
19:40 walterbender #motion:  adopt the 2016 vision for Sugar Labs
19:40 kaametza_web <kaametza_web!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:41 davelab6 CanoeBerry_: i will review this log and update the text in caryl's googel doc tonight
19:41 CanoeBerry_ davelab6: Funny when people don't take financial people seriously, that's what happens.  Maybe we'll learn our lesson now possibly in coming weeks??
19:41 tony37 Sorry, but I don't believe this motion is close to being ready for approval.
19:41 llaske tony37 what miss ?
19:41 walterbender tony37, the vision proposal?
19:41 davelab6 CanoeBerry_: please email the list with your concerns asap
19:41 walterbender what is at issue?
19:42 tony37 The primary concern is it fails to address the educational goals of Sugar. It does not answer the question: Why Sugar?
19:42 davelab6 here is the vision proposal as it stands at this moment.
19:43 Sugar is high-quality software for learning, especially by younger children.
19:43 Sugar is designed for use by people who do not yet have regular or reliable internet access.
19:43 The Sugar Desktop runs on inexpensive desktop and laptop computers that have modest capacity, such as the XO-1 "$100 Laptop" developed by One Laptop per Child (OLPC).
19:43 A web-based version is under development for tablets and phones, called Sugarizer.
19:43 Sugar Activities are applications that run in Sugarizer or the Sugar Desktop.
19:43 Sugar Activities encourage learning through self-discovery and encourage collaboration, expression, and reflection.
19:43 Sugar realises the educational vision of Seymour Papert and Alan Kay by providing a low floor and no ceiling.
19:43 llaske tony37, Why Sugar is the mission
19:43 davelab6 Every Sugar Activity respects every user's freedom to run, study, modify and redistribute it using software licenses compatible with the GNU General Public License (GPL) Version 3 or later.
19:43 Sugar development began in 2006 at OLPC, and in 2009 Sugar Labs was established in service to the Su
19:43 Sugar development began in 2006 at OLPC, and in 2009 Sugar Labs was established in service to the Sugar community as a volunteer-led and non-profit project.
19:43 In 2016 the Sugar community is global, and we at Sugar Labs aspire to include users and contributors in all countries, all languages, and all cultures.
19:43 We facilitate knowledge and software sharing among all people; we relate the software freedom movement to education.
19:43 We raise funds and use them to accelerate the progress of our Members, enabling them to access laptops, travel, and more.
19:43 We make things to think with.
19:43 Join us.
19:43 (end of paste)
19:43 on the FIRST LINE it answers the question "Why Sugar?"
19:43 on the SECOND LINE it answers the question "Why Sugar?"
19:44 tony37 This is not the same text as the link
19:44 davelab6 on the THIRD LINE it answers the question "Why Sugar?"
19:44 GrannieB_ Why not include other libre software? Actually… why not. Tony uses sone great things that aren't Sugar but are FOSS
19:44 satellit Toast? trisquel
19:44 davelab6 tony37: please hard refresh the page
19:45 walterbender tony37, here is the link again: https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]ion_proposal_2016
19:45 Tonyf has quit IRC
19:46 tony37 I guess the first link was dated. Sorry.
19:46 The first line is Sugar is high-quality software for learning, especially by younger children.
19:47 davelab6 right
19:47 tony37 This describes our view of what Sugar is. It does not say what makes it good for younger children
19:48 Arguably GCompris satisfies both of those attributes
19:48 davelab6 lines 6 and 7:
19:48 Sugar Activities encourage learning through self-discovery and encourage collaboration, expression, and reflection.
19:48 Sugar realises the educational vision of Seymour Papert and Alan Kay by providing a low floor and no ceiling.
19:48 walterbender tony37, not in my opinion
19:48 ElVerma In following the conversation around vision, mission, etc. I get the distinct feeling that the group has high variance when it comes towhat these terms mean and what role these statements play
19:48 tony37 I understand but your feelings need to be expressed in the vision
19:48 walterbender tony37, gcompris is great but it is only a partial vision of learning
19:49 tony37 Exactly
19:49 What does Sugar offer that is not available with Edubuntu?
19:49 ElVerma Perhaps an exercise in better understanding the roles and processes would help?
19:49 davelab6 tony37: gcompris is part of sugar! http://activities.sugarlabs.or[…]=gcompris&cat=all
19:49 walterbender tony37, it is not about constuction, expression, reflection collaboration
19:49 GrannieB_ Things like E-Paath and Abecedarium (sp) are wonderful and are used alongside Sugar. So it seems logical to include other non-Sugar FOSS/libre resources as part of what we do
19:50 ElVerma I would propose a session/exercise as opposed to a one off "come back with a statement" approach
19:50 tony37 Walter You are making my point. We need the vision statement to tell others what is Sugar and why is it important
19:51 walterbender tony37, thoise words are in the vision statement
19:51 I was just quoting
19:51 GrannieB_ Sameer has a really good idea just above
19:51 davelab6 i have been working on that vision statement
19:51 and soliciting contributions
19:51 for over 2 months
19:52 i feel VERY frustrated that the motions that have had MONTHS for debate are failing here
19:52 walterbender GrannieB, to your point, we incorporate other FOSS tools, but we have a specific vision/spin that is different from those tools. Perhaps the exception is Etoys, which from my POV is part of Sugar
19:52 ElVerma We need a semi-facilitated session to examine all these viewpoints and then hammer out a statement.
19:52 GrannieB_ Sameer… would be a great facilitator!
19:53 tony37 +1
19:53 davelab6 ElVerma: how about we pass these motions and then submit later motions to improve them, instead of having sugar labs have very little forward momentum
19:53 7 minutes less
19:53 ElVerma davelab6: I don't think asking for contributions will work until we've had a good discussion
19:53 davelab6 left
19:53 llaske +1 davelab6, a sort of version 0
19:53 tony37 Dave I appreciate your diligence and the great work you have done on this.
19:54 davelab6 zero motions voted!
19:54 ElVerma davelab6: I disagree
19:54 tony37 I don't think the meeting should be measured by the number of motions considered or voted on.
19:54 icarito lol
19:54 Claudia__ tony37: agree
19:55 ElVerma tony37: +1
19:55 davelab6 what then is the purpose of this meeting??
19:55 hahahhaa
19:55 GrannieB_ Frustrated… but yes tony37: =
19:55 +1 and lol
19:56 davelab6 walterbender: next motion?
19:56 walterbender Let me just say -- and I know from experience that I am going to be hammered for saying this -- but several community members put a lot of work into preparing motions well in advance for this meeting
19:56 icarito maybe a meeting is not evaluated by # of motions voted but the board should be
19:56 walterbender it is disheartening that there was so little effort to comment beforehand
19:57 davelab6 lol icarito
19:57 walterbender icarito, +1
19:57 llaske :-)
19:57 GrannieB_ How about monthly mid-month skype hangout sessions to work on these things? I find irc really hard for my arthritic fingers but Skype is nice
19:57 davelab6 google hangouts is recorded
19:57 walterbender skype is propietary and not well supported in Linux
19:57 GrannieB_ Google hangouts would work too
19:58 ElVerma irc is not a good medium for discussing strategic decisions
19:58 GrannieB_ +1000
19:58 davelab6 walterbender: im not aware of a free software solution for multiparty video that can record but i have been using https://appear.in for 100% libre software video calls
19:58 walterbender ElVerma, the idea was that the discussion takes place between meetings
19:59 pikurasa, knows of one
19:59 GrannieB_ Adam used Google Hangouts a lot for Unleashed Kids and recorded them
20:00 walterbender GrannieB, at least google hangouts works with Linux
20:00 ElVerma walterbender: Agreed. I think it's a facilitation problem, compounded by multiple communication channels
20:00 davelab6 walterbender: next motion please?
20:00 tony37 I only have a minute. On the Motions A ..., we have decided on a committee to prepare a proposed motion(s) for next board meeting. I believe this group should work to get concensus among themselves and then the board members before the meeting.
20:01 davelab6 tony37: i agree. i thought that had already occured.
20:01 walterbender I don't think we can continue today...
20:01 GrannieB_ Motion B should be tabled until motion A is dealt with
20:01 ElVerma walterbender: if we had better tools and methods to manage our collective work, things would move faster and be more effective.
20:01 tony37 On the vision statement, I believe ElVerma will lead a discussion leading to a stronger statement which can be endorsed by the board as well as Sean Daly and other stakeholders.
20:01 walterbender I will write up some thoughts to send to the list over the weekend
20:01 #end-meeting
20:01 meeting Meeting ended Fri Jun  3 20:01:54 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
20:01 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-03T19:01:08.html
20:01 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]16-06-03T19:01:08
20:02 tony37 has quit IRC
20:02 icarito ElVerma, it's not about tools but will
20:02 llaske has quit IRC
20:03 walterbender icarito, +1
20:03 meeting * Jose_Miguel has quit (Quit: Page closed)
20:03 ElVerma icarito: I think the will is there. We all make an effort to still do this
20:03 icarito: however, not everything can be solved with git and irc
20:04 icarito ElVerma, I have seen no email from you on the relevant discussions on the mailing list
20:04 git is irrelevant for the topic at hand
20:04 neither from most members of the board
20:04 CanoeBerry_ Mailing lists have their place, but are hardly the magical solution to building consensus that they may have been 25 years ago.
20:05 GrannieB_ +1
20:05 icarito why?
20:05 lots can be achieved if there is a will to communicate
20:05 ElVerma icarito: first, there needs to be a willingness to accept that things like marketing and strategy are difficult and not the same as writing code.
20:06 CanoeBerry_ +1 ElVerma..and accounting too!
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20:06 ElVerma icarito: mailinglists have a lot of noise...
20:06 icarito ElVerma, I'd like to see a serious effort before blaming the tools
20:07 ElVerma anyway, I have to go. Will catch up later.
20:07 GrannieB_ people want instant feedback today. That's why FTF conferences are soo good. Laura and I used them a couple of years ago for our great group Venture Lans project
20:07 ElVerma has left #sugar-meeting
20:07 GrannieB_ Venture Labs
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20:09 walterbender we have tried live documents (wiki, google docs, etc) email, chat, irc..
20:10 the bottom line is that if you don't make the effort to participate, regardless of the channel, nothing happens
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20:14 Claudia__ walterbender: point taken, but the dynamics of the meetings changed in the last few months
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20:37 satellit In #fedora-qa we do a -1 and -1 and consensus rules   if there is a quorum ; no need for unanimity agreements to pass resolutions
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21:18 davelab6 i have just posted a motion to address the total failure of this meeting to get anything voted on
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22:08 CanoeBerry_ On the flip side, what's perceived as gridlock from the outside, was one of the most productive 2016 weeks on record -- Sam Greenfeld's vision tweaking, SFC increasingly getting many financial/legal details organized, Walter's news about outside interest by large organization, and More Than A Few Others working their butts off behind the scenes without need for public posturing and parliamentiary scuffling.
22:10 Sean Daly, Sameer Verma and many others weighing in very toughtfully.  Woudn't want to spoil a great bitchin' fest with optimism however!
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