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| 11:47 | walterbender | hemant_kasat, I was just going to write to you about the playback |
| 11:48 | samtoday <samtoday!~samtoday124-171-72-79.dyn.iinet.net.au> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 11:48 | walterbender | you have a list of note value times determined by the subdivisions of the cells |
| 11:49 | you should be able to calculate a sequence of, for example, 8, 8, 4, 8, 8, 4 | |
| 11:49 | just play those back with a drum | |
| 11:49 | hemant_kasat, make sense? | |
| 11:49 | hemant_kasat, here are a few more thoughts: | |
| 11:51 | (1) each time you divide a cell, you should rerender all of the cells in a "zerba" pattern -- every other cell either lighter or darker | |
| 11:51 | hemant_kasat | walterbender , yes it makes sense |
| 11:51 | walterbender | hemant_kasat, (2) you can do an undo button by simply restoring the innerHTML of the state before the last division |
| 11:52 | so just push it onto a heap each time before dividing | |
| 11:52 | then undo just pops | |
| 11:53 | hemant_kasat | walterbender , (1) do you mean when select a cell it should a have a different color other than all the cells ? |
| 11:53 | walterbender | (3) so I have been thinking about how to specify multiple rows |
| 11:53 | why not use drum blocks as triggers | |
| 11:53 | iamutkarshtiwari | Hi! icarito |
| 11:54 | walterbender | each time you encounter a drum block you start a new row with that drum |
| 11:54 | hemant_kasat, that can be a goal for next week | |
| 11:54 | lets get playback, undo and save working first. | |
| 11:55 | hemant_kasat | walterbender , for playback , should i have argument for choosing drum ? |
| 11:58 | walterbender , and also did you check again the issue we were talking about ? | |
| 12:00 | walterbender | hemant_kasat, I think the DEFAULTDRUM is fine for playback for now |
| 12:00 | mohayon <mohayon!~mohayon193.164.156.100> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 12:00 | walterbender | hemant_kasat, I looked at your latest commit from yesterday. It fixes the division problem, but the button placement is a bit awkward |
| 12:01 | good morning/afternoon/evening everyone | |
| 12:01 | llaske | hi |
| 12:01 | walterbender | shall we begin with some updates? |
| 12:01 | hemant_kasat | walterbender , I know it is , but i will fix that up |
| 12:01 | lp1 | hi |
| 12:01 | walterbender | who'd like to start? lp1 ? |
| 12:01 | iamutkarshtiwari | Hi |
| 12:01 | lp1 | Sure ! |
| 12:02 | llaske | start-meeting ? |
| 12:02 | AbrahmAB <AbrahmAB!3b5dcd73gateway/web/freenode/ip.59.93.205.115> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 12:02 | walterbender | #start-meeting |
| 12:02 | meeting | Meeting started Fri Jun 3 12:02:34 2016 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 12:02 | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting | |
| 12:02 | walterbender | #topic updates |
| 12:04 | lp1 | So, this week I worked on the Java (Android) JavaScript interaction, I have a custom activity running and added a sugarizeros.js file to my plugin, this way it is injected directly into the Cordova build. I found how to create java methods that I can call within JavaScript and I checked that none of the Sugarizer apps were broken by my changes. I looked at the MusicBlocks too but I'm not sure what |
| 12:04 | issue you were refering to walterbender, I checked the block deletion but It was working fine for me | |
| 12:05 | walterbender | lp1, it is a problem with tone.js |
| 12:05 | lp1 | I updated my blog http://lp1-eu.blogspot.fr/ with the last week's content and I'm writing an article about Cordova's Android methods calls for future reference |
| 12:05 | walterbender | I cannot hear any sound |
| 12:05 | lp1, do you get sound? | |
| 12:06 | AbrahmAB | This week I worked on setting up project-view in journal, add-new entry feature, add-new participant and refactoring metadata |
| 12:06 | hemant_kasat | I have a basic ruler ready which can be dissected into parts according to the input given and then the parts can recursively be divided into different parts. |
| 12:06 | samtoday | AbrahmAB: hello! |
| 12:07 | lp1 | walterbender Oh ok ! I see the related issue now ! No I don't. Ok, I have to check how toneJS is working, I tried to debug with Chrome on Android but since it didn't show any relevant error I was lost :) |
| 12:07 | samtoday | AbrahmAB: did you get the model working for add-new participants? (the collab code?) |
| 12:07 | walterbender | lp1, if you could investigate, would be great. thx |
| 12:07 | lp1 | walterbender Ok, I'm looking into it |
| 12:07 | hemant_kasat | Now I will work on playback sound according to note values got by dividing the ruler and then a undo for the divisions made. |
| 12:08 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: I am working on filtering the list yet. After that I will work on collab code! |
| 12:08 | samtoday | AbrahmAB: awsome |
| 12:08 | AbrahmAB: do did you find a way to put the query in the query dict? | |
| 12:09 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: Not yet :( But I will figure it out soon. |
| 12:09 | samtoday | don't worry about it |
| 12:09 | you should really ask some questions if you want | |
| 12:09 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: yes sure |
| 12:09 | samtoday | b/c walterbender probably knows if there is any documentation for the sugar datastore query format |
| 12:10 | pikurasa | (I am here, reading through log from 7:50 a.m.) |
| 12:10 | walterbender | AbrahmAB, I will take a look and see what I can find |
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| 12:11 | AbrahmAB | samtoday, walterbender: okay I will ask you both if I couldn't solve the issue |
| 12:11 | pikurasa | walterbender, hemant_kasat: I like the "zebra" color idea. |
| 12:11 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: I will try to wish the collab code (online one) asap till monday :) |
| 12:12 | After we could proceed with the offline syncing (version control and all) | |
| 12:12 | iamutkarshtiwari | icarito: Mr. Anderson is travelling. He wouldn't be able to make today possibly. |
| 12:12 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: is that cool? |
| 12:12 | samtoday | AbrahmAB: awsome! Can you try to do the online one based on the master branch? |
| 12:12 | I emailed you a way to think about it seperated from the "project" ideas, | |
| 12:12 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, we've had an email discussion |
| 12:12 | samtoday | and I don't think that it works like that |
| 12:12 | walterbender | have you seen it? |
| 12:13 | samtoday | so, we could probably get that upstreamed very quickly |
| 12:13 | iamutkarshtiwari | walterbender: Hello Mr. Bender. Yes I saw it. It's about the 'save as' feature discussion. |
| 12:13 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: I will look into that |
| 12:13 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, is there a feature page for all of these proposed changes? |
| 12:13 | samtoday | +1 |
| 12:14 | AbrahmAB: but it is all looking good so far! | |
| 12:14 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: I may face some issues will working with collab so be ready :D |
| 12:14 | samtoday | :) |
| 12:15 | AbrahmAB: do you have a working test environment for collab? Have you been able to share an activity and a file between 2 sugar instances on your computer? | |
| 12:15 | iamutkarshtiwari | walterbender: Here is the blog I wrote for my progress till date - https://iamutkarshtiwari.wordpress.com/ . and here is the feature page for 'save as' - https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]enshotDialogPopup |
| 12:15 | walterbender | looks |
| 12:16 | pikurasa | I am looking, too. |
| 12:16 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: I have shared the chat activity bet 2 sugar instances |
| 12:16 | samtoday | awsome, so the text channels work |
| 12:16 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, that seems to be specific to savescreenshot |
| 12:16 | AbrahmAB | But other activities like Write didnt worked :( |
| 12:16 | walterbender | seems like a nice solution |
| 12:16 | samtoday | have you been able to work the journal "send-to" feature AbrahmAB? |
| 12:17 | walterbender | not clear what happens when you hit 'cancel' |
| 12:17 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: yes "send-to" works well |
| 12:17 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, ^^ |
| 12:17 | pikurasa | iamutkarshtiwari: Good start to the blog. |
| 12:17 | iamutkarshtiwari | walterbender: I have been busy with my exams this week so couldn't make much progress. But will soon get to the speed after exams get over. |
| 12:17 | samtoday | AbrahmAB: Write used the telepahty "Tubes", which are deprecated and don't work with all accounts. There are patches to port write, but the maintainer hasn't merged them :`( |
| 12:18 | pikurasa | iamutkarshtiwari: Maybe in the next blogs have some "This is what I learned" sections. |
| 12:18 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, it is important to have clarity around the feature proposal so as to save heading down dead ends |
| 12:18 | samtoday | I suppose it's just like I don't merge any patches quickly |
| 12:18 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: anyother activity that could be used for testing the collab? |
| 12:18 | iamutkarshtiwari | walterbender: When we hit 'cancel', the current running activity instance is not saved in the journal(in short- discarded) |
| 12:18 | samtoday | AbrahmAB: the latest version of bibliography activity (3? 4?) uses CollabWrapper. Maybe just test that one? |
| 12:19 | iamutkarshtiwari | pikurasa: I wrote that whole blog yesterday :P |
| 12:19 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, am an not sure cancel says the same as discard |
| 12:19 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: great |
| 12:20 | samtoday | walterbender: [unrelated] do you have thoughts on me merging bug fixes for sugar{,-toolkit-gtk3} that I have written, but nobody else has reviewed (in last 2 weeks)? |
| 12:21 | (and sugar-artwork) | |
| 12:21 | walterbender | samtoday, I will try to do some reviews... been busy with my day job lately :P |
| 12:21 | samtoday | :) |
| 12:21 | pikurasa | iamutkarshtiwari: I recommend it for the future blogs, to keep log of your development as coder. |
| 12:22 | iamutkarshtiwari | walterbender: Usually what happens is when we click 'stop' button, the activity closes and a jobject of that instance gets saved in the Journal. What if the user doesn't want to save that instance. He can simply do so by clicking 'cancel/discard' button on the save as alert which popups up while closing to save Journal clutter. |
| 12:22 | samtoday | AbrahmAB: If you're ever waiting on reviews or anything, maybe just take another look at the decptively hard patch that is; https://github.com/sugarlabs/s[…]kit-gtk3/pull/313 |
| 12:23 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: yes I will work on it :) |
| 12:24 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, the details of how to not save is complex |
| 12:24 | iamutkarshtiwari, because for most activities, they are saved in the background long before any dialog or hitting the exit button | |
| 12:24 | iamutkarshtiwari | walterbender: It's simply like what happens when we close an unsaved document in LibreOffice. |
| 12:25 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: have u tested my code https://github.com/sugarlabs/s[…]-projectlist-view |
| 12:25 | iamutkarshtiwari | walterbender: We'll need to interrupt that saving with the alert. That's the main challenge. |
| 12:25 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: any improvements till now> |
| 12:25 | improvements needed?? | |
| 12:25 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, I am saying that we'll need to find the associated jobject and remove it |
| 12:26 | iamutkarshtiwari | walterbender: For that we need to make changes in activity.py file. |
| 12:27 | samtoday | AbrahmAB: err, I'll check it out now |
| 12:28 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: the toolbutton with 'emblem-question' will redirect to lists of projects |
| 12:28 | and then back again to traditional view | |
| 12:29 | samtoday | AbrahmAB: please add projectview.py to the jarabe.journal makefile.am |
| 12:30 | and friendslistpopup to jarabe.view | |
| 12:31 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, that could be a bit tricky |
| 12:31 | samtoday | AbrahmAB: and activitychooser in jarabe.desktop :) |
| 12:32 | iamutkarshtiwari | walterbender: Mr. Anderson pointed me in that direction. |
| 12:32 | pikurasa | hemant_kasat: There is a bug when you click "cancel" in the dialogue box. The rhythm ruler sectors disappear. |
| 12:32 | samtoday | AbrahmAB: oh wait it is there already. My sugar-build is confused |
| 12:32 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, we prob. want to add some glue for deleting entries |
| 12:32 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: forced push with changes |
| 12:33 | :) | |
| 12:33 | hemant_kasat | pikurasa , thanks for pointing out , i will see it . |
| 12:35 | samtoday | AbrahmAB: I'm getting the "ImportError: cannot import name ActivityChooser", I think you renamed it ObjectChooser |
| 12:35 | shell.log - http://paste.fedoraproject.org/374051/14649573 | |
| 12:35 | iamutkarshtiwari | walterbender: That seems like a right thing to do. But if we could make activity.py not save the jobject until user provides an input in the alert, it would be better I guess? |
| 12:36 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, no |
| 12:36 | hemant_kasat | pikurasa , yes it was because i wasn't checking for the input number is null or not , checked it , now it works fine , i will push it |
| 12:37 | pikurasa | hemant_kasat, walterbender: I noticed that you can put in decimal numbers and it seems to work. I think I like that. (.5 makes two whole note length) |
| 12:37 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, it is important that we save to the journal early and often |
| 12:37 | so you don't ever lose work | |
| 12:37 | iamutkarshtiwari | walterbender: But with the 'save as' feature we are giving the user the choice to decide whether we wan't to save or discard the current work/ |
| 12:38 | he* | |
| 12:39 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: fixed error |
| 12:39 | hemant_kasat | pikurasa , i saw it , just have to check, it is integer or not |
| 12:39 | iamutkarshtiwari | wont' that interfere with Journal's 'save early and often' policy? |
| 12:40 | walterbender: ^ | |
| 12:40 | pikurasa | hemant_kasat: I like that you can put in decimals. Negative numbers, however, should not be accepted. |
| 12:40 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, this is why I was saying the discard needs to remove the object, not just never write it |
| 12:41 | iamutkarshtiwari | walterbender: Oh..yes! I get it. It's better than the previous 'not writing' strategy. |
| 12:41 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, I think we need a separate feature page for this than just the screensave as this is a more general change |
| 12:43 | iamutkarshtiwari | walterbender: Apologies. I sent you the wrong link :( I haven't yet made a feature page for "save As' |
| 12:43 | Will do it by today. | |
| 12:43 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, you may want to look at how the Journal deletes entties |
| 12:43 | hemant_kasat | pikurasa , walterbender , just had a thought for undo , why don't we save the input number in a heap and then when we want to undo , we give the reverse of the input number to the function of dissection , in this way one of the cell divided earlier will be again of same width and the rest can be deleted . |
| 12:44 | walterbender | hemant_kasat, yes... but you can do this simply by restoring the innerHTML |
| 12:44 | or you can recalculate everything | |
| 12:44 | your choice | |
| 12:44 | iamutkarshtiwari, I am worried about race conditions | |
| 12:45 | samtoday | AbrahmAB: That's looking brillant! A few little UI things, but I will properly test it in the morning. ttyl |
| 12:45 | samtoday has quit IRC | |
| 12:45 | AbrahmAB | samtoday: ty :) |
| 12:45 | hemant_kasat | walterbender , pikurasa , actually when pikurasa said it is accepting decimal and then i tried then it striked me |
| 12:45 | iamutkarshtiwari | walterbender: What race conditions? |
| 12:46 | pikurasa | hemant_kasat: Try what you think will work. |
| 12:46 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, I worry that when you delete, the activity may be trying to save |
| 12:46 | so it could be a race | |
| 12:46 | something to investigate | |
| 12:47 | hemant_kasat | pikurasa , walterbender , i will see which is best for the undo and i will do that |
| 12:49 | iamutkarshtiwari | walterbender: Should be try running a thread(to delete that particular instance) which can wait until the saving is done? |
| 12:49 | pikurasa | hemant_kasat: Great! If you are unsure or want to compare, that is what git branches are for. |
| 12:49 | walterbender | iamutkarshtiwari, it merits investigation |
| 12:49 | hemant_kasat | pikurasa , yes !! |
| 12:49 | walterbender | have we heard from everyone? |
| 12:50 | pikurasa | hemant_kasat: Please write up weekly blog posts of your "adventures with music blocks" |
| 12:50 | (as I have asked before) | |
| 12:51 | hemant_kasat | pikurasa , I will write a blog post in one or two days |
| 12:51 | pikurasa | hemant_kasat: wonderful. |
| 12:54 | hemant_kasat | ok !! ttyl !! |
| 12:54 | pikurasa | Okay, I am going to go. Thank you! |
| 12:54 | walterbender | thanks everyone |
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| 12:55 | walterbender | anything else for today? |
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| 12:55 | walterbender | #end-meeting |
| 12:55 | meeting | Meeting ended Fri Jun 3 12:55:55 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
| 12:55 | Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-03T12:02:34.html | |
| 12:55 | Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]16-06-03T12:02:34 | |
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| 18:07 | davelab6 | when is the SLOB meeting? |
| 18:08 | ah, in 1 hour | |
| 18:09 | satellit | davelab6 I am no longer able to upload files to tgilliard how do I redo my pub/private keys? |
| 18:10 | lost in computer crash | |
| 18:17 | CanoeBerry_ | I fear I will be late, arriving after 19UTC. My apologies. |
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| 18:42 | GrannieB | This page doesn't look right. There is no list of names on the right side. Is there another link? |
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| 18:54 | walterbender | ElVerma, hi |
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| 18:55 | ElVerma | Greetings! |
| 18:55 | tony37 | Hello |
| 18:55 | walterbender | we have tony37 too |
| 18:55 | any other SLOB members? | |
| 18:56 | meeting | * Jose_Miguel-es has joined |
| 18:56 | GrannieB_ | Adam was here earlier |
| 18:56 | JM_ <JM_!~webchatrev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 18:56 | walterbender | hey JM_ |
| 18:56 | we have a quorum :) | |
| 18:56 | meeting | <Jose_Miguel-es> Hello! |
| 18:56 | <Jose_Miguel-es> Excellent! | |
| 18:56 | GrannieB_ | Hola |
| 18:57 | walterbender | JM_, I gave your name to someone I met at an MIT conference the other day |
| 18:57 | he works for Latu/Ceibal | |
| 18:57 | meeting | <Jose_Miguel-es> *OK. |
| 18:57 | walterbender | and is ignorant of what is happening in the rest of UY |
| 18:57 | so I was hoping he'd reach out to you | |
| 18:57 | meeting | <Jose_Miguel-es> :( |
| 18:58 | walterbender | JM_, Crisobal Cobo |
| 18:58 | meeting | <Jose_Miguel-es> It will be attended... |
| 18:58 | <Jose_Miguel-es> If, I know it. I conversed with the some times, but clearly does not situate me... | |
| 18:59 | walterbender | JM_, I pointed him at many things... hopefully he will follow up |
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| 19:00 | CanoeBerry_ | Hi |
| 19:00 | meeting | <Jose_Miguel-es> It directs the Foundation *Ceibal... |
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| 19:00 | meeting | <Jose_Miguel-es> Hello! |
| 19:00 | llaske | hi all |
| 19:00 | walterbender | hi llaske |
| 19:01 | OK. let's begin | |
| 19:01 | #start-meeting | |
| 19:01 | meeting | Meeting started Fri Jun 3 19:01:08 2016 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 19:01 | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting | |
| 19:01 | walterbender | #topic updates |
| 19:01 | before we jump into the motions, I'd like to update the board on a few things | |
| 19:02 | (1) I am in touch with several organizations who are interested in Sugar at some level | |
| 19:02 | llaske | Nice |
| 19:02 | walterbender | the discussions are at a very preliminary level |
| 19:02 | one is an effort to set up schools world-wide | |
| 19:03 | llaske | cool |
| 19:03 | walterbender | another is with a service provider who is interested in folding some of our work into their own |
| 19:03 | davelab6 | satellit: i have no idea, i dont have a shell account... i suggest you send your new pub key to the systems@ list |
| 19:03 | walterbender | I don't mention names here as it is not at that stage yet. |
| 19:03 | CanoeBerry_ | When you can share more what kind of "service provider" great, even vaguely.. |
| 19:03 | satellit | k |
| 19:03 | walterbender | CanoeBerry_, software services of the highest quality |
| 19:04 | but they are not FOSS | |
| 19:04 | so we need to find a common ground | |
| 19:04 | CanoeBerry_ | Right. |
| 19:04 | davelab6 | cool! |
| 19:04 | walterbender | anyway, this was just a heads up. hopefully more to report next month |
| 19:04 | davelab6 | exciting! |
| 19:04 | walterbender | a few other things |
| 19:04 | ElVerma | As long as they follow the license, it should be ok. |
| 19:05 | walterbender | Sam Parkinson will be the release manager for the next release |
| 19:05 | CanoeBerry_ | In other news, Karen Sandler has been very helpful getting many legal/financial issues organized, but we are not there yet on Samson Goddy's Yoruba contract and a few others items. Karen is working on getting a PayPal donation button ready per Sean Daly & others requests. |
| 19:05 | walterbender | Tincho will be helping him |
| 19:05 | llaske | Will be cool to have the PayPal button |
| 19:06 | walterbender | thought we had one once a long time ago |
| 19:06 | ElVerma | Do we have a published agenda for today? Curious\= |
| 19:07 | CanoeBerry_ | Frustrating that Facebook will not fully confirm our SL Facebook page, until a Non-Public / Official Sugar Labs document is provided, but hopefully that's advancing too. |
| 19:07 | walterbender | two more updates from me: (1) GSoC wrapped up its second week |
| 19:07 | lots of progress | |
| 19:07 | and (2) I will be in Chile in two weeks, meeting with the Foundation that Cecilia (formally of Paraguay Educa) is part of. | |
| 19:07 | I'll see what I can do re Sugar in Chile :) | |
| 19:08 | @ ElVerma In the wiki | |
| 19:08 | #link https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]oard#Agenda_items | |
| 19:08 | any other updates? | |
| 19:08 | if not, let's jump in to the list of motions | |
| 19:08 | ElVerma | thx |
| 19:09 | walterbender | #topic Finance Manager |
| 19:09 | there are four separate motions | |
| 19:09 | icarito | walterbender, do ping werner and patricio of sugar labs chile |
| 19:09 | walterbender | #link https://docs.google.com/docume[…]OUEX0ICRUkOc/edit |
| 19:09 | tony37 | Could we have each motion on the log before consideration. So many changes that I have lost track of what the motion currently is. |
| 19:09 | icarito | and share with the community the purpose of your trip ;-) |
| 19:09 | walterbender | icarito, on my list :) |
| 19:09 | CanoeBerry_ | Advance apologies I have a serious offline situation I have to attend to @ 19:30UTC, and so will be offline then. |
| 19:10 | walterbender | CanoeBerry_, we can solicit your vote by email |
| 19:10 | Motion A: To replace existing bylaw for Finance Manager | |
| 19:11 | It is a lot of text... I can copy it all here when it is time to vote | |
| 19:11 | does anyone second the motion? | |
| 19:11 | tony37 | That is needed. This one has seemed to change daily. |
| 19:11 | walterbender | tony37, ok |
| 19:11 | one second | |
| 19:11 | Motion A: To replace existing bylaw for Finance Manager from: | |
| 19:11 | Existing: | |
| 19:11 | The Finance Manager is an ex officio, non-voting officer taking care of Sugar Labs' Finance. | |
| 19:11 | Currently, this position is vacant. | |
| 19:11 | Proposed: | |
| 19:11 | The Finance Manager shall be appointed by a majority vote of the Sugar Labs Oversight Board and may be either a non-voting officer or one of the current Oversight Board members. The Finance Manager will serve at the will of the Board and may be removed and replaced by a majority vote of the Board if necessary. | |
| 19:12 | Currently, this position is vacant. | |
| 19:12 | Duties of the Finance Manager will be to: | |
| 19:12 | 1. Work with the Software Freedom Conservancy to manage all Sugar Labs monetary disbursements | |
| 19:12 | 2. report monthly in advance of the scheduled monthly Oversight Board Meeting the following: | |
| 19:12 | Balance at the beginning of the month | |
| 19:12 | Expenses during the month (with summary/mini-budget details for each expense) | |
| 19:12 | Income received during the month | |
| 19:12 | Balance at the end of the month | |
| 19:12 | To carry out these duties, the Finance Manager will need to assert familiarity with using the Software Freedom Conservancy accounting system “Ledger” (see details at http://ledger-cli.org and http://k.sfconservancy.org/npo-ledger-cli). | |
| 19:12 | This Finance Manager’s Report shall be available as a full text on the wiki.sugarlabs.org website at least 72 hours before the regularly scheduled meeting. A simple majority vote of the Sugar Labs Oversight Board shall be required for approval of the Finance Manager’s Report. | |
| 19:12 | The Finance Manager, shall be paid a remuneration for their services In proportion to the expected workload. The SugarLabs Oversight Board shall set the initial amount and shall review and reapprove the amount of remuneration every 6 months. If this does not happen the remuneration will default to $0, but can be reinstated at any subsequent regular SLOB meeting. | |
| 19:12 | Failure to carry out these duties for more than one meeting will result in removal and appointment of another Finance Manager. | |
| 19:12 | GrannieB_ | That's the gist of it! |
| 19:13 | walterbender | We have discussed this ad nuaseum on the lists |
| 19:13 | llaske | Do we vote for the appointment too ? |
| 19:13 | walterbender | GrannieB, that is not the gist... it is the entire text |
| 19:13 | Claudia__ <Claudia__!~webchatrev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 19:13 | walterbender | llaske, that is a separate matter |
| 19:13 | hi Claudia__ | |
| 19:13 | Claudia__ | Hello.. |
| 19:13 | GrannieB_ | right…. but it has the spirit of all the changes too |
| 19:14 | walterbender | any more comments re this motion? |
| 19:14 | anyone care to second it? | |
| 19:14 | tony37 | I believe 'shall be paid' should say 'may be paid' |
| 19:14 | llaske | +1 tony37 |
| 19:14 | Claudia__ | sorry doe being late.. I am at the cafe in newtonville to join the meeting |
| 19:14 | GrannieB_ | Tony is right |
| 19:14 | walterbender | Claudia__, I will past the link to the backlog |
| 19:15 | The Finance Manager, may be paid a remuneration for their services In proportion to the expected workload. The SugarLabs Oversight Board shall set the initial amount and shall review and reapprove the amount of remuneration every 6 months. If this does not happen the remuneration will default to $0, but can be reinstated at any subsequent regular SLOB meeting. | |
| 19:16 | Claudia__ | walterbender: please do |
| 19:16 | walterbender | #link http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]16-06-03T19:01:08 |
| 19:16 | tony37 | The second sentence after the revision is not really needed. It could say 'Remuneration may be authorized by the Sugarlabs Oversight Board |
| 19:16 | davelab6 | walterbender: we did have a paypal button in the wiki in an external file 'paypal.htm' or 'donate.htm' but I think it was lost in a wiki upgrade; i could not find any trace of it. |
| 19:16 | CanoeBerry_ | I don't want to get hung up on technicalities, but the 4 reporting requirements ("beginning of the month" "during the month" and "end of the month" etc) are still very ambiguous, particularly when these must be reported 72hrs prior to the beginning-of-month meeting, and finding these numbers with a modicum of accuracy can sometimes be hard, even when FA has many weeks available. |
| 19:16 | walterbender | any other comments? |
| 19:17 | CanoeBerry_ | Some kind of "best effort" summary of how finances *actually& evolved since the prior month seems to be far more attainable :) |
| 19:18 | walterbender | anything else? |
| 19:18 | CanoeBerry_ | All of which assumes meetings remain monthly, near the beginning of the month.. |
| 19:19 | walterbender | presuming we clean up these ambiguities, is there interest in moving forward on this? |
| 19:19 | CanoeBerry_ | I think so. |
| 19:20 | walterbender | so... procedurally, can you clean things up so that ypou are comfortable seconding the motion? |
| 19:21 | it would be nice to take action one way or another on this today | |
| 19:21 | CanoeBerry_ | That's hard work, but probably necessary. |
| 19:21 | walterbender | if it is hard work then we should do it offline and vote by email |
| 19:22 | tony37 | Given that the Software Conservancy is being paid 10% of our income to handle the bookkeeping, is this not something the Board can handle directcly? |
| 19:22 | CanoeBerry_ | Seems necessary unfortunately -- as I don't think we're satisfied with 2-month-old reporting, but some level of depth around recent financials is very hard to articulate. |
| 19:22 | GrannieB_ | Motion B depends on Motion A so it might be nice to clean it up today |
| 19:22 | walterbender | GrannieB, +1 to getting things cleaned up |
| 19:23 | CanoeBerry_ | tony37: SFConservancy has sophisticated financial/reporting software, but its complexity is part of the challenge here. |
| 19:23 | davelab6 | GrannieB_: im sorry to say it but i will be shocked if those 4 motions pass today; i can't see that any revisions can be made now and then passed immediately without further community review |
| 19:23 | there has been literally months to comment on caryls text | |
| 19:23 | and now there are comments on the wording! :) | |
| 19:23 | tony37 | I am not referring to the software but the reporting. How many financial transactions has Sugar Labs had in the past quarter? |
| 19:23 | walterbender | davelab6, oy |
| 19:24 | tony37, probably 5-6 | |
| 19:24 | CanoeBerry_ | Conversely voting on the impossible (monthly reporting on a month that is not even complete, that cannot possibly happen) doesn't get us anywhere. |
| 19:24 | The 72hrs notice is admirable, but make the above 4 reporting requirements impossible, as it stands anyway. | |
| 19:25 | GrannieB_ | How about just one reporting requirement at each regularly scheduled SLOB meeting. I think that may be the way I originally wrote it. 72 hours in advance is nice so there are no nasty surprises but less would work too |
| 19:25 | tony37 | Perhaps word the Motion A for a monthly report of transactions during the month and the resulting change in the books (based on the end of a calendar month). |
| 19:25 | meeting | <Jose_Miguel-es> In accordance with tony37 |
| 19:25 | tony37 | We appartently have about 2 transactions per month |
| 19:26 | walterbender | tony37, in a busy month |
| 19:26 | CanoeBerry_ | Wording needs to summarize the most recent month of financials, yes. But what that means in practise depends on a few things behind the curtain, that will become more obvious along the road. |
| 19:26 | walterbender | tony37, but that may change if motion B (2) passes :) |
| 19:26 | tony37 | Need to know what that now says. |
| 19:27 | walterbender | look... I agree we need to clean this up but let's do it off line |
| 19:27 | tony37 | +1 |
| 19:27 | walterbender | we have too many other agenda items to get through |
| 19:27 | GrannieB_ | Please |
| 19:27 | 1 You have had months to work on this. Try to finish it today. It isn't rocket science! | |
| 19:28 | walterbender | CanoeBerry_ and tony37 : Can the two of you take responsibiliy for cleaning up the reporting language over the next 48 hours? |
| 19:28 | then, if someone seconds the motion, I will bring it up for an email vote | |
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| 19:28 | tony37 | During the past 30 days, I have received almost no emails regarding these motions until the day before yesterday when there have been dozens reflecting serious concerns. |
| 19:29 | I believe Caryl needs also to be involved. | |
| 19:29 | walterbender | tony37, let's not debug the process... let's just get things moving |
| 19:29 | GrannieB_ | Tony! I sent several… over the past 6-8 weeks to the iaep list and others. How did you miss them? |
| 19:29 | CanoeBerry_ | I can work on it, but 48 hours is impossible the financial issues therein are downright hairy even if I wasn't traveling :/ |
| 19:30 | walterbender | CanoeBerry_, tell us when you think you can have it done? |
| 19:30 | feels we owe it to the community to get this done in a timely fashion | |
| 19:30 | GrannieB_ | +1 |
| 19:30 | llaske has quit IRC | |
| 19:30 | tony37 | Can we target the next board meeting? |
| 19:31 | CanoeBerry_ | tony37: l agreed. Getting it right is betting that fooling everyone; I'm completely unwilling to paste in a charade. |
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| 19:31 | CanoeBerry_ | *better than fooling |
| 19:31 | walterbender | CanoeBerry_, I object to that characterization |
| 19:31 | bernie_ has quit IRC | |
| 19:31 | walterbender | GrannieB, and davelab6 have put a lot of work into this |
| 19:32 | CanoeBerry_ | A charade is an impossible goal. |
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| 19:32 | walterbender | and have sought omment |
| 19:32 | CanoeBerry_ | I'm unwiling to be involved with that. |
| 19:33 | walterbender | CanoeBerry_, noted. |
| 19:33 | well... we still need feedback and someone t work on the reporting language | |
| 19:33 | any voluneteers? | |
| 19:33 | GrannieB_ | We have wasted 20 min discussing things that should have been done over the past 6-8 weeks. This is why SLOB is starting to resemble the US Congress |
| 19:33 | walterbender | need not be a SLOB member |
| 19:33 | CanoeBerry_ | I'm willing if false deadlines are not set. |
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| 19:34 | walterbender | CanoeBerry_, again, so noted |
| 19:34 | tony37 | Walter Bender Are you proposing a committee of me, Caryl, Dave, and Canoeberry to come up with motion(s) to be proposed at the next meeting? |
| 19:34 | CanoeBerry_ | Getting financial reporting accurate/clear (and finding that balance) is fundamentally hard, as Karen Sandler and others are working with me on. |
| 19:34 | walterbender | tony37, I am proposing that someone(s) work on the language |
| 19:35 | I don't have strong feelings about who | |
| 19:35 | GrannieB_ | We could do that. If so, motion B should be tabled pending action on motion A |
| 19:35 | davelab6 | lol GrannieB_ |
| 19:35 | walterbender | but it should be addressed sooner than later as we owe a responsible response to the hard work of our community members |
| 19:35 | GrannieB, I am afraid we need to move on to other motions | |
| 19:35 | CanoeBerry_ | I can organize a methodical suggestion yes, with Caryl, Dave, Tony, but have to run at this moment. |
| 19:35 | walterbender | my apologies |
| 19:36 | davelab6 | CanoeBerry_: any objection to using google docs? |
| 19:36 | walterbender | doesn't know what a "methodical suggestion" is |
| 19:37 | davelab6 | nor i |
| 19:37 | GrannieB_ | OK Adam… will be in TX till Tues then LA then driving to MT. We can touch bases somewhere on the line. Whatever you guys want is ok with me… SKYPE maybe? |
| 19:37 | FTF is good even if it is virtual | |
| 19:38 | davelab6 | fine for me |
| 19:38 | CanoeBerry_ | Financial realities about when reporting comes in and what's genuinely attainable, not voodoo handwaving about impossibly unattainable summaries, before they are possible. |
| 19:38 | walterbender | next topic |
| 19:38 | #topic Vision Statement | |
| 19:38 | there is a motion to approve a vision statement for 2016 | |
| 19:39 | #link https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]ion_proposal_2016 | |
| 19:39 | CanoeBerry_ | Bradley Kuhn is especially helpful here: I'll see if he has time by phone in coming weeks, despite my traveling. Then Caryl/Dave/Tony/I can consolidate a real-world suggestion. |
| 19:39 | davelab6 | CanoeBerry_: weeks!! |
| 19:39 | icarito | CanoeBerry_, I support davelab6's proposal to automate ledger file removal of personal information and autopublication |
| 19:39 | llaske | Good idea to separate Vision and Goal |
| 19:39 | icarito | it shuoldn't be that hard |
| 19:39 | walterbender | llaske, +1 |
| 19:39 | llaske | Important to mention that Vision is not Mission |
| 19:39 | walterbender | we should set the vision and let the community set goals |
| 19:40 | llaske | The mission don't change |
| 19:40 | +1 walterbender | |
| 19:40 | walterbender | so |
| 19:40 | davelab6 | CanoeBerry_: i understand you have to go but honestly i feel very frustrated with you right now, because you have had WEEKS to further comment on caryl's google doc, which you already commented on. |
| 19:40 | walterbender | #motion: adopt the 2016 vision for Sugar Labs |
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| 19:41 | davelab6 | CanoeBerry_: i will review this log and update the text in caryl's googel doc tonight |
| 19:41 | CanoeBerry_ | davelab6: Funny when people don't take financial people seriously, that's what happens. Maybe we'll learn our lesson now possibly in coming weeks?? |
| 19:41 | tony37 | Sorry, but I don't believe this motion is close to being ready for approval. |
| 19:41 | llaske | tony37 what miss ? |
| 19:41 | walterbender | tony37, the vision proposal? |
| 19:41 | davelab6 | CanoeBerry_: please email the list with your concerns asap |
| 19:41 | walterbender | what is at issue? |
| 19:42 | tony37 | The primary concern is it fails to address the educational goals of Sugar. It does not answer the question: Why Sugar? |
| 19:42 | davelab6 | here is the vision proposal as it stands at this moment. |
| 19:43 | Sugar is high-quality software for learning, especially by younger children. | |
| 19:43 | Sugar is designed for use by people who do not yet have regular or reliable internet access. | |
| 19:43 | The Sugar Desktop runs on inexpensive desktop and laptop computers that have modest capacity, such as the XO-1 "$100 Laptop" developed by One Laptop per Child (OLPC). | |
| 19:43 | A web-based version is under development for tablets and phones, called Sugarizer. | |
| 19:43 | Sugar Activities are applications that run in Sugarizer or the Sugar Desktop. | |
| 19:43 | Sugar Activities encourage learning through self-discovery and encourage collaboration, expression, and reflection. | |
| 19:43 | Sugar realises the educational vision of Seymour Papert and Alan Kay by providing a low floor and no ceiling. | |
| 19:43 | llaske | tony37, Why Sugar is the mission |
| 19:43 | davelab6 | Every Sugar Activity respects every user's freedom to run, study, modify and redistribute it using software licenses compatible with the GNU General Public License (GPL) Version 3 or later. |
| 19:43 | Sugar development began in 2006 at OLPC, and in 2009 Sugar Labs was established in service to the Su | |
| 19:43 | Sugar development began in 2006 at OLPC, and in 2009 Sugar Labs was established in service to the Sugar community as a volunteer-led and non-profit project. | |
| 19:43 | In 2016 the Sugar community is global, and we at Sugar Labs aspire to include users and contributors in all countries, all languages, and all cultures. | |
| 19:43 | We facilitate knowledge and software sharing among all people; we relate the software freedom movement to education. | |
| 19:43 | We raise funds and use them to accelerate the progress of our Members, enabling them to access laptops, travel, and more. | |
| 19:43 | We make things to think with. | |
| 19:43 | Join us. | |
| 19:43 | (end of paste) | |
| 19:43 | on the FIRST LINE it answers the question "Why Sugar?" | |
| 19:43 | on the SECOND LINE it answers the question "Why Sugar?" | |
| 19:44 | tony37 | This is not the same text as the link |
| 19:44 | davelab6 | on the THIRD LINE it answers the question "Why Sugar?" |
| 19:44 | GrannieB_ | Why not include other libre software? Actually… why not. Tony uses sone great things that aren't Sugar but are FOSS |
| 19:44 | satellit | Toast? trisquel |
| 19:44 | davelab6 | tony37: please hard refresh the page |
| 19:45 | walterbender | tony37, here is the link again: https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]ion_proposal_2016 |
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| 19:46 | tony37 | I guess the first link was dated. Sorry. |
| 19:46 | The first line is Sugar is high-quality software for learning, especially by younger children. | |
| 19:47 | davelab6 | right |
| 19:47 | tony37 | This describes our view of what Sugar is. It does not say what makes it good for younger children |
| 19:48 | Arguably GCompris satisfies both of those attributes | |
| 19:48 | davelab6 | lines 6 and 7: |
| 19:48 | Sugar Activities encourage learning through self-discovery and encourage collaboration, expression, and reflection. | |
| 19:48 | Sugar realises the educational vision of Seymour Papert and Alan Kay by providing a low floor and no ceiling. | |
| 19:48 | walterbender | tony37, not in my opinion |
| 19:48 | ElVerma | In following the conversation around vision, mission, etc. I get the distinct feeling that the group has high variance when it comes towhat these terms mean and what role these statements play |
| 19:48 | tony37 | I understand but your feelings need to be expressed in the vision |
| 19:48 | walterbender | tony37, gcompris is great but it is only a partial vision of learning |
| 19:49 | tony37 | Exactly |
| 19:49 | What does Sugar offer that is not available with Edubuntu? | |
| 19:49 | ElVerma | Perhaps an exercise in better understanding the roles and processes would help? |
| 19:49 | davelab6 | tony37: gcompris is part of sugar! http://activities.sugarlabs.or[…]=gcompris&cat=all |
| 19:49 | walterbender | tony37, it is not about constuction, expression, reflection collaboration |
| 19:49 | GrannieB_ | Things like E-Paath and Abecedarium (sp) are wonderful and are used alongside Sugar. So it seems logical to include other non-Sugar FOSS/libre resources as part of what we do |
| 19:50 | ElVerma | I would propose a session/exercise as opposed to a one off "come back with a statement" approach |
| 19:50 | tony37 | Walter You are making my point. We need the vision statement to tell others what is Sugar and why is it important |
| 19:51 | walterbender | tony37, thoise words are in the vision statement |
| 19:51 | I was just quoting | |
| 19:51 | GrannieB_ | Sameer has a really good idea just above |
| 19:51 | davelab6 | i have been working on that vision statement |
| 19:51 | and soliciting contributions | |
| 19:51 | for over 2 months | |
| 19:52 | i feel VERY frustrated that the motions that have had MONTHS for debate are failing here | |
| 19:52 | walterbender | GrannieB, to your point, we incorporate other FOSS tools, but we have a specific vision/spin that is different from those tools. Perhaps the exception is Etoys, which from my POV is part of Sugar |
| 19:52 | ElVerma | We need a semi-facilitated session to examine all these viewpoints and then hammer out a statement. |
| 19:52 | GrannieB_ | Sameer… would be a great facilitator! |
| 19:53 | tony37 | +1 |
| 19:53 | davelab6 | ElVerma: how about we pass these motions and then submit later motions to improve them, instead of having sugar labs have very little forward momentum |
| 19:53 | 7 minutes less | |
| 19:53 | ElVerma | davelab6: I don't think asking for contributions will work until we've had a good discussion |
| 19:53 | davelab6 | left |
| 19:53 | llaske | +1 davelab6, a sort of version 0 |
| 19:53 | tony37 | Dave I appreciate your diligence and the great work you have done on this. |
| 19:54 | davelab6 | zero motions voted! |
| 19:54 | ElVerma | davelab6: I disagree |
| 19:54 | tony37 | I don't think the meeting should be measured by the number of motions considered or voted on. |
| 19:54 | icarito | lol |
| 19:54 | Claudia__ | tony37: agree |
| 19:55 | ElVerma | tony37: +1 |
| 19:55 | davelab6 | what then is the purpose of this meeting?? |
| 19:55 | hahahhaa | |
| 19:55 | GrannieB_ | Frustrated… but yes tony37: = |
| 19:55 | +1 and lol | |
| 19:56 | davelab6 | walterbender: next motion? |
| 19:56 | walterbender | Let me just say -- and I know from experience that I am going to be hammered for saying this -- but several community members put a lot of work into preparing motions well in advance for this meeting |
| 19:56 | icarito | maybe a meeting is not evaluated by # of motions voted but the board should be |
| 19:56 | walterbender | it is disheartening that there was so little effort to comment beforehand |
| 19:57 | davelab6 | lol icarito |
| 19:57 | walterbender | icarito, +1 |
| 19:57 | llaske | :-) |
| 19:57 | GrannieB_ | How about monthly mid-month skype hangout sessions to work on these things? I find irc really hard for my arthritic fingers but Skype is nice |
| 19:57 | davelab6 | google hangouts is recorded |
| 19:57 | walterbender | skype is propietary and not well supported in Linux |
| 19:57 | GrannieB_ | Google hangouts would work too |
| 19:58 | ElVerma | irc is not a good medium for discussing strategic decisions |
| 19:58 | GrannieB_ | +1000 |
| 19:58 | davelab6 | walterbender: im not aware of a free software solution for multiparty video that can record but i have been using https://appear.in for 100% libre software video calls |
| 19:58 | walterbender | ElVerma, the idea was that the discussion takes place between meetings |
| 19:59 | pikurasa, knows of one | |
| 19:59 | GrannieB_ | Adam used Google Hangouts a lot for Unleashed Kids and recorded them |
| 20:00 | walterbender | GrannieB, at least google hangouts works with Linux |
| 20:00 | ElVerma | walterbender: Agreed. I think it's a facilitation problem, compounded by multiple communication channels |
| 20:00 | davelab6 | walterbender: next motion please? |
| 20:00 | tony37 | I only have a minute. On the Motions A ..., we have decided on a committee to prepare a proposed motion(s) for next board meeting. I believe this group should work to get concensus among themselves and then the board members before the meeting. |
| 20:01 | davelab6 | tony37: i agree. i thought that had already occured. |
| 20:01 | walterbender | I don't think we can continue today... |
| 20:01 | GrannieB_ | Motion B should be tabled until motion A is dealt with |
| 20:01 | ElVerma | walterbender: if we had better tools and methods to manage our collective work, things would move faster and be more effective. |
| 20:01 | tony37 | On the vision statement, I believe ElVerma will lead a discussion leading to a stronger statement which can be endorsed by the board as well as Sean Daly and other stakeholders. |
| 20:01 | walterbender | I will write up some thoughts to send to the list over the weekend |
| 20:01 | #end-meeting | |
| 20:01 | meeting | Meeting ended Fri Jun 3 20:01:54 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
| 20:01 | Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-03T19:01:08.html | |
| 20:01 | Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]16-06-03T19:01:08 | |
| 20:02 | tony37 has quit IRC | |
| 20:02 | icarito | ElVerma, it's not about tools but will |
| 20:02 | llaske has quit IRC | |
| 20:03 | walterbender | icarito, +1 |
| 20:03 | meeting | * Jose_Miguel has quit (Quit: Page closed) |
| 20:03 | ElVerma | icarito: I think the will is there. We all make an effort to still do this |
| 20:03 | icarito: however, not everything can be solved with git and irc | |
| 20:04 | icarito | ElVerma, I have seen no email from you on the relevant discussions on the mailing list |
| 20:04 | git is irrelevant for the topic at hand | |
| 20:04 | neither from most members of the board | |
| 20:04 | CanoeBerry_ | Mailing lists have their place, but are hardly the magical solution to building consensus that they may have been 25 years ago. |
| 20:05 | GrannieB_ | +1 |
| 20:05 | icarito | why? |
| 20:05 | lots can be achieved if there is a will to communicate | |
| 20:05 | ElVerma | icarito: first, there needs to be a willingness to accept that things like marketing and strategy are difficult and not the same as writing code. |
| 20:06 | CanoeBerry_ | +1 ElVerma..and accounting too! |
| 20:06 | JM_ has quit IRC | |
| 20:06 | ElVerma | icarito: mailinglists have a lot of noise... |
| 20:06 | icarito | ElVerma, I'd like to see a serious effort before blaming the tools |
| 20:07 | ElVerma | anyway, I have to go. Will catch up later. |
| 20:07 | GrannieB_ | people want instant feedback today. That's why FTF conferences are soo good. Laura and I used them a couple of years ago for our great group Venture Lans project |
| 20:07 | ElVerma has left #sugar-meeting | |
| 20:07 | GrannieB_ | Venture Labs |
| 20:08 | GrannieB_ has quit IRC | |
| 20:08 | GrannieB has quit IRC | |
| 20:09 | kaametza_web has quit IRC | |
| 20:09 | walterbender | we have tried live documents (wiki, google docs, etc) email, chat, irc.. |
| 20:10 | the bottom line is that if you don't make the effort to participate, regardless of the channel, nothing happens | |
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| 20:14 | Claudia__ | walterbender: point taken, but the dynamics of the meetings changed in the last few months |
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| 20:37 | satellit | In #fedora-qa we do a -1 and -1 and consensus rules if there is a quorum ; no need for unanimity agreements to pass resolutions |
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| 21:18 | davelab6 | i have just posted a motion to address the total failure of this meeting to get anything voted on |
| 21:18 | davelab6 has quit IRC | |
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| 22:08 | CanoeBerry_ | On the flip side, what's perceived as gridlock from the outside, was one of the most productive 2016 weeks on record -- Sam Greenfeld's vision tweaking, SFC increasingly getting many financial/legal details organized, Walter's news about outside interest by large organization, and More Than A Few Others working their butts off behind the scenes without need for public posturing and parliamentiary scuffling. |
| 22:10 | Sean Daly, Sameer Verma and many others weighing in very toughtfully. Woudn't want to spoil a great bitchin' fest with optimism however! | |
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