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#sugar-meeting, 2016-05-20

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Time Nick Message
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11:58 mohayon Hello everyone
11:59 hemant_kasat hello
11:59 walterbender hi
11:59 lp1 hello
11:59 llaske hi
11:59 yagarwal hello!
12:00 walterbender so, does GSoC offically begin on Monday?
12:00 checks the schedule
12:00 hemant_kasat yes it begins on monday
12:01 lp1 yes it's the date we've been given
12:01 walterbender May 23: Coding begins!!!
12:01 The good stuff :)
12:01 the coding never ends
12:02 has everyone had adequate "bonding"?
12:02 anyone with any doubts about their plans?
12:02 elih hello!
12:04 walterbender maybe everyone can quickly describe what they plan to do in Week 1?
12:04 can I put someone on the spot?
12:04 hemant_kasat, ?
12:04 elih we are still are unsure if we will use py/gtk or js/html5, but I believe we will make a final decision today.
12:04 llaske :-o
12:04 icarito hi
12:05 walterbender elih, seems things were leaning towards JS/HTML5?
12:05 hola icarito
12:05 hemant_kasat, which widget will you work on first: rhythm ruler?
12:05 hemant_kasat walterbender , my plan is that we decide which extra library we will have to use and make changes in the designs suggested
12:06 walterbender hemant_kasat, extra library? for what?
12:06 lp1 I'm working on Sugarizer OS and I will start working on creating a launcher with Cordova on Android and launch a first instance of Sugarizer on the device
12:06 hemant_kasat walterbender , yes my plan was to start with rhythm ruler , if its ok ?
12:06 walterbender hemant_kasat, +1
12:06 elih Walter: I'm leaning towards js/html5, I think dave more towards py/gtk.
12:07 llaske Dave -1 :-)
12:07 hemant_kasat walterbender , i don't have any idea now  that's why i said if we need we have to discuss about it
12:07 walterbender is agnostic
12:07 yagarwal my vote is also towards Js/html
12:07 walterbender hemant_kasat, I suspect there is no need for any new libraries
12:07 easel.js should be all you need
12:08 llaske easel.js is a very nice library
12:08 hemant_kasat walterbender , ok then , i have added the designs in owncloud, devin gave me access
12:08 walterbender hemant_kasat, BTW, I met with a member of the Google team who did their music widgets yesterday
12:08 he promised a patch to improve the sound quality of our synth code (tone.js)
12:09 hemant_kasat, sounds good.
12:09 davelab6 <davelab6!~davelab6@cpe-69-203-196-22.nyc.res.rr.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
12:09 hemant_kasat walterbender , thats great
12:09 walterbender hemant_kasat, you've been looking at the matrix code?
12:09 elih walter: The recent announcement about Andriod apps coming to chromebooks is something to consider... and pushes me further in the js/html5 direction.
12:10 walterbender elih, yes..
12:10 davelab6 hi
12:10 hemant_kasat walterbender , i didn't get much time recently but i was going through the code whenever i got time
12:10 walterbender elih, Chromebooks are outselling Macs these days
12:10 elih hi dave!
12:10 llaske @walterbender: really ?
12:10 icarito i suspect performance wise and polish wise python trumps js most of the time - I'll love to see the prototypes :-)
12:11 walterbender llaske, at least in the US market, yes
12:12 hemant_kasat walterbender , any suggestion for the designs ?
12:12 walterbender hemant_kasat, would be good to see an HTML5 mockup of the matrix using embedded scrolling tables as per our discussion
12:12 davelab6 i prefer python sugar desktop because the purpose of a font editor is not to draw fonts
12:12 it is USE fonts
12:12 walterbender davelab6, good point
12:12 davelab6 and it is not clear to me how to get a font from a JS font editor into other JS activities
12:12 llaske good point sure
12:12 walterbender davelab6, you'd have to grab it from the Downloads directory somehow
12:13 llaske I've not idea of the use case for the app
12:13 walterbender which in Sugar should be the Journal
12:13 davelab6 and the python font editor foundation libraries are a little more mature
12:13 not by much, but a little
12:13 hemant_kasat walterbender , i will try out what you said about the table and get back to you
12:13 walterbender hemant_kasat, thx
12:14 yagarwal keeping all things constant we can say that js/html way will support more users keeping other factors constant, also performance wont be big issue we aren't doing any computational stuff here, so it shouldn't matter
12:14 davelab6 it is sort of possible to do it without the downloads directory, see https://plus.google.com/+DaveC[…]posts/B3CWLhyENzN
12:14 yagarwal davelab6: can't JS based activities write to the journal
12:15 hemant_kasat walterbender , so should i add a new repository of the clone and start working when coding period starts or i will have to submit patches to the existing repository ?
12:15 llaske Sure, JS based activities could write/read the journal
12:15 using Sugar-Web
12:15 davelab6 yagarwal: so we have 2 projects, a python font manager to pick fonts form the journal and install them
12:15 yagarwal: and a web based editor
12:16 walterbender hemant_kasat, you should follow the standard PR model: make a clone, make a patch, make a commit, make a PR
12:16 davelab6 llaske: can sugar-web be used for the UI only, and the core run on python via a python web srver?
12:16 hemant_kasat walterbender , ok !!
12:16 llaske not my favorite architecture, but it could
12:16 what's the idea davelab6 ?
12:17 davelab6 llaske: the js library for compiling binary fonts is a bit weak
12:17 llaske: the python ones are becoming stronger
12:17 llaske: much faster
12:17 llaske okay, make sense
12:17 davelab6 llaske: because google i18n team is putting a lot of effort into them
12:17 llaske: and very little into the js ones
12:18 and i hope yagarwal and elih can focus on the editor and not the underlying tech
12:18 metapolator is an attempt to make a web based font editor
12:18 and it has been 3 years
12:18 with nothing ACTUALLY useful
12:19 partly because it takes a lot of time to write new JS foundations
12:19 but i think on a xo-1 the js ui - py core would be slow
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12:20 davelab6 and since we would still need to make a pythong font manager
12:20 lp1 <lp1!~lupin@83.141.77.130> has joined #sugar-meeting
12:20 davelab6 the overall experience is split
12:20 whereas with a pure python system, its possible to have 1 fonts activity
12:21 that drills down from managing font favourite lists to editing the fonts
12:21 llaske interesting discussion whatever the choice could be, I think elih should document it on its blog
12:21 icarito while I used to be a fan of web technologies in the desktop, to me they've failed to deliver
12:21 i find performance and user experience are always degraded
12:22 elih I do much prefer working with python :)
12:22 davelab6 see http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/[…]oo-much-on-html5/ from 2012
12:22 and https://stratechery.com/2016/g[…]go-to-market-gap/ from this week
12:22 llaske 2012 !
12:22 icarito llaske, and pretty valid in my mind
12:22 davelab6 "The situation is even more challenging when it comes to social networks broadly and messaging specifically, which is to mobile as the browser was to the PC: a meta-OS where people spend the vast majority of their time. The problem for Google is that while the browser was an open platform that not even Microsoft could control — sure, they killed Netscape, but Google built its audience from
12:22 within Internet Explorer — social networks and messaging services are not only closed but nearly impossible to compete with. "
12:23 llaske Remind me "Internet is dead" article in Wired, few years ago
12:23 davelab6 so if sugar is a early 70s design
12:23 web apps are a mid 90s design
12:24 llaske So, what's next design ?
12:24 davelab6 and messaging is a mid 2000s design
12:24 yagarwal well I have faced this personally while making a cross platform app with angularJS using Apache cordova, the performance was very poor and we had to shift to native android
12:24 davelab6 yagarwal: right
12:24 is the sugar python desktop still using telepathy for its real time collab?
12:24 how well does that work?
12:25 icarito we did the Sugar Network frontend as a webapp and in hindsight GTK would've worked better
12:25 walterbender davelab6, yes... and it works well with small numbers
12:25 llaske It's always the main question but could we really maintain a native version of Sugar in all environment (Desktop, Android, iOS, ...) ?
12:26 icarito davelab6, telepaty API is scary and it's really hard to get right (i.e. test)
12:26 i never have at least
12:26 walterbender icarito, the helper widget Sam P and I wrote makes it pretty easy
12:27 easy enough for GCI kids to pick up pretty quickly
12:27 testing any collaboration suite is tricky
12:27 lots of corner cases
12:28 icarito walterbender, yes so I hear, will love to try it
12:28 walterbender but I don't see that the telepathy code is fundamentally more complex
12:28 davelab6 i commissioned real time collab for fontforge with zeromq, hijacking the undo system
12:28 zeromq is really The Best
12:29 llaske: since gtk and qt are gpl i think they can not go into iStore
12:30 llaske Are your sure ? In my mind there is some Qt app in the Apple Store ?
12:31 davelab6 hmm https://github.com/eugals/GTKAndroid is abandoned
12:31 llaske: i expect their paid the proprietary license for Qt
12:31 llaske Hmmm. ok.
12:31 icarito davelab6, aren't they LGPL ?
12:32 davelab6 icarito: GTK is
12:32 icarito: qt is gpl unless you pay
12:32 icarito: so its sustained by revenue from proprietary app developers
12:32 icarito: www.fontlab.com has undergone a total rewrite from scratch over the last 8 years
12:33 icarito: they finally settled on Qt as the best cross platform desktop app toolkit
12:33 llaske Guess we need to switch project to let some time to all students
12:33 davelab6 icarito: meanwhile trufont.github.io is PyQt and is itself licnsed as LGPL but since Qt and PyQt are GPL-or-pay, the whole is defacto GPL
12:33 llaske: yes!
12:33 makes breakfast
12:34 icarito I missed to remind iamutkarsh and tony :/
12:34 walterbender any other students want to chime in on their Monday plans?
12:34 davelab6 yagarwal + elih, i think i have made my case, lots of options, you decide :)
12:36 icarito i will love to see the two prototypes, if it gets to that
12:36 I also think there is some pedagogic value in Python, i.e. a designed, readable language
12:37 yagarwal well, you have much more experience in the libre font editor world, so its upto you; I'm comfortable with either platform
12:38 icarito: you are right and one thing is for sure, there will lot less dependencies with Python/Gtk
12:38 elih Another thing I like about python -- it's the language many type designer use for scripting. So any type designer that wants to learn how a font editor works could look at our project to learn from.
12:40 icarito davelab6, qt is LGPL-or-pay https://www.qt.io/licensing/
12:41 as long as the project is libre it shouldn't be an issuehttps://forum.qt.io/topic/4902[…]ource-app-project
12:41 yagarwal elih + davelab6 have you seen the blog post?, I've posted whatever code I had.
12:41 icarito not that we target ios in any case :-)
12:41 also recently i looked and GTK+android is in its infancy
12:41 llaske, but python+android is not
12:42 elih I trust Dave knows what he's talking about because of his experiences with Metapolator, I'm fine with py/gtk and feel we need to make a choice asap today so we can hit the ground running on Monday.
12:42 icarito i.e. if only we supported kivy apps in Sugar - OpenGL is such a luxury ;-)
12:43 elih yagarwal: no, I'll look now :)
12:45 reads blogpost
12:45 llaske lp1 could you talk to us about your project too ?
12:46 iamutkarshtiwari <iamutkarshtiwari!7d13ed22@gateway/web/freenode/ip.125.19.237.34> has joined #sugar-meeting
12:46 iamutkarshtiwari Hi
12:46 Apologies for being late
12:47 lp1 Sure :) ! I'm working on SugarizerOS, so far we had a Sugar-based OS and an Android application, the goal of SugarizerOS is to implement the whole sugar operating system experience on most of Android devices :)
12:47 icarito hi iamutkarshtiwari !
12:47 iamutkarshtiwari icarito: Hi Mr. Silva!
12:48 tony37 <tony37!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
12:48 icarito lol welcome
12:48 iamutkarshtiwari tony37: Hi Mr.Anderson!
12:48 lp1 llaske I've made a draft of a presentation video for the project, I have to work on the slides again but I think it's pretty straightforward https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nYFne_V71E
12:48 tony37 hi, thanks
12:48 icarito hi Mr Tiwari :-)
12:48 iamutkarshtiwari icarito: haha :D you got me :P
12:49 tony37 hi, utkarsh
12:49 llaske Hey, good marketing lp1 !
12:49 icarito lp1, I have recently been playing some with pyhton-on-android and was quite pleased to see it work rather well
12:49 that opens the possibility for some code reuse
12:50 llaske Python without Gtk has no interest in my mind
12:50 iamutkarshtiwari tony37, icarito:  I think we are now close to wrapping up the JSFiddler project. I'll share with you the latest updated xo bundle with all the features implemented as asked by Mr. Anderson.
12:50 mohayon As lp1 told in the video the goal is to allow anyone with an android tablet to get all the os options within sugarizer (wifi/bluetooth)
12:50 And set sugarizer as the main screen (launcher)
12:50 icarito llaske, a python collaboration and journal service would be quite handy don't you think? I expect the lack of those features in sugarizer is a language/sandbox limitation?
12:51 llaske icarito collaboration and journal are in Sugarizer with Sugarizer server :-)
12:51 tony37 Looking forward to giving it a try.
12:51 icarito llaske, does that run on the android device itself?
12:52 llaske you're right, it need a network connection
12:52 icarito a server-based journal is not a journal, methinks
12:52 iamutkarshtiwari tony37: We need to decide a roadmap for other feature to be implemented during coding period before it starts so that we don't have any confusion during that time.?
12:52 llaske there is also a localstorage journal
12:53 icarito llaske, which is quite easy to loose hidden within the browser sandbox
12:53 iamutkarshtiwari tony37: Is Manash still working on the Sugar backup/restore feature?
12:53 icarito iamutkarshtiwari, tony37 if we apply ourselves the original proposal targets can be met early I think
12:54 in which case we could decide on further on-the-ground relevant features as time permits
12:54 tony37 utkarsh I think some confusion is inevitable but it should be minimized. We can discuss priorities off-line. Yes, Manash is working on that. I tested the latest version this morning.
12:55 Utkarsh I also believe in optimism but my experience is everything takes longer. I think there is enough on the plate.
12:55 icarito lp1, sorry we started discussing on top of your discussion
12:55 i will be excited to have a sugarizer android home app
12:56 tony37 GCompris is also available as an Android app
12:56 icarito tony37, I hear you about things taking more effort than expected
12:56 lp1 icarito I think it's going to be a nice feature, so far it's pretty great to be able to use Sugarizer with the apps but it's not as good as encapsulating it as an OS for the children I think
12:56 icarito especially since I don't see we have a solid patch review process
12:57 mohayon Obviously, your launcher will also allow to launch android app from sugarizer
12:57 :)
12:57 llaske GCompris and ScratchJR should be the first
12:58 icarito i will love to see a 'hackable and simple' android ui which I think are the core concepts of Sugar
12:58 lp1 mohayon I was trying to explain it in the video but I'm not sure it's explicit enough, I'll add a slide for this
12:59 mohayon Okay, great
12:59 icarito tony37, iamutkarshtiwari I think a very positive thing to have is the server interactions hacked out of the specific server implementations (such as xsce) and properly made (optional) parts of Sugar
12:59 mohayon Anything to add ? Blog, etc
13:00 icarito it's really confusing what registration and backups mean without the other side of the story
13:00 i.e. ejabberd does not require any registration to provide collaboration
13:00 tony37 icarito my view is that the system is a coordination between server and networked laptops
13:00 icarito so I guess registration is about uploading ssh keys for backups?
13:00 lp1 mohayon I have a blogspot so far but I don't like it very much, I'm going to deploy something on a github.io and add it to the drive with the other participant's blogs
13:01 icarito the interaction with the server is really mysterious
13:01 tony37 registration serves two functions: set up access to ejabberd and set up the backup process. These should be separate and independent
13:02 icarito tony37, i have set up ejabberd and it doesn't require 'registration' for regular use
13:02 so really I don't know what `registration` does
13:02 davelab6 re: mentor payments, this just in from the gsoc mentor internal list from josh adler, inkscape legend: "I can only speak for Inkscape but historically it has ended up being
13:02 about 1/3 of the time that it went to mentors. Note that it is a
13:02 donation to the project from Google for each mentor's participation,
13:02 so it's at the discretion of each project as to whether or not they
13:02 even offer to give the funds to the mentor. Inkscape chooses to let
13:02 the mentor decide if they want compensation or for it to remain with
13:02 the project."
13:02 tony37 This is an area of confusion to be sure. Originally, registration set up ejabberd. But I agree, my impression is it works with registration
13:03 icarito tony37, iamutkarshtiwari it would be really a great contribution to Sugar to clean the server registration mess up
13:03 tony37 which is the way it should be
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13:04 tony37 Agreed, my goal is that registration is not on the Home View menu but is done every time the laptop connects to the server.
13:04 icarito davelab6, yes I saw your thread from last night - i expect more people will answer that list tends to generate traffic
13:05 davelab6, lets see what other orgs say, I saw with a simple web search for instance haiku project also lets the mentors decide
13:05 davelab6 cool
13:05 icarito tony37, until 'registration' is defined, that's an implementation detail
13:06 for sure there are one-time-actions and every-time-actions
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13:06 tony37 Registration from the perspective of the backup process is to create a serial-number directory in /library/users on the school server and to add the serial-number as a user. From this,
13:06 icarito as a linux user? 8-O
13:06 tony37 the backup process is enabled
13:07 Yes
13:07 Naturally without login or home folder
13:08 icarito sounds messy to me - we should begin by fishing whatever server code there is and folding it under sugar
13:09 tony37 How do you do that and install from Sugar to the server?
13:09 icarito whoever admins the server should install the server bits
13:09 not the clients :-)
13:09 distros like xsce would have it preinstalled I guess, as they already do
13:09 tony37 Agreed, but Sugar is installed on the clients. The server bits belong to xsce
13:10 icarito but if the component is sugar-specific it should be under the wing of sugar labs
13:10 tony37 Yes, however messy, this scheme has been in place for nearly 8 years.
13:10 Apparently it would be except for a misnaming of the package (the preceding sugar was omitted)
13:11 icarito tony37, and has not been adopted by the major deployments because it requires a rather clunky server configuration
13:11 tony37, it's not about the sugar name
13:11 tony37 It is unique to Sugar and to the XO
13:11 icarito it's about the documentation and maintenance process
13:11 davelab6 hey i have to take the subway now
13:11 elih and yagarwal please discuss and reach a decision
13:11 tony37 The claim that this is not part of Sugar made by James Cameron apparently is because the package was named with a Sugar prefix
13:11 icarito yes we're past the 1 hour meeting time
13:12 davelab6 elih: i think ultimately yagarwal should decide
13:12 since he's doing the work XD
13:12 icarito tony37, you are taking my explanation to be literal, it's just a heuristic
13:12 walterbender we should let people go...
13:12 icarito not because of the name but because of how its maintained and shipped
13:12 tony37 I think you are wrong but we can take it off-line
13:13 yagarwal davelab6: I am ok with Python, I think we should start with refining the proposal now
13:13 icarito currently it resides outside sugar domain of action, nobody from sugar reviews this code yet somehow sugar is expected to interact with it
13:13 then, when we get sugar in southamerica, we are left to wonder what that is all about
13:13 elih davelab6: yes, and i'm happy both ways, we just need to move forward :)
13:13 davelab6 yagarwal: sure thing, post a new proposal on the blog and ill check it
13:14 elih: great!
13:14 icarito tony37, its not productive to debate this issue - can you even tell me how the server component is called and where its git repository resides?
13:14 davelab6 has quit IRC
13:14 tony37 Yes, but let's discuss this off-line
13:14 yagarwal davelab6 + elih: I'll do that now
13:15 icarito okay thanks guys nice chatting with all of you
13:15 tony37 bye
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13:22 lupin012345 Bye :)
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