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#sugar-meeting, 2016-05-19

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05:47 klopsi-u3 Seymour Hersh reported that Hillary Clinton approved shipping SARIN GAS from libya to syrian Al-Nusra terrorists, to kill 1300 civillians in a false-flag attack to be blamed on Assad.  STOP THE PSYCHO VAMPIRE GRANDMA HILLARY CLINTON
08:28 https://off-guardian.org/2016/[…]to-syrian-rebels/
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20:48 davelab6 hi yagarwal and elih
20:49 elih hey all
20:49 davelab6 elih: nice post on the blog
20:49 elih The Raspberry Pi one? :)
20:50 davelab6 what do you think about developing the html part in the blog repo branch?
20:50 so its live onlne
20:50 yagarwal hey, I was trying the same thing today and got stuck with the a issue in implementing it, I mailed Lasse and even filled this issue https://github.com/graphicore/ufoJS/issues/67 on his recommendation
20:51 elih that could work, what I have now is just for mocking things up and testing out layout.
20:52 davelab6 yagarwal: did you use the 0.9.0 release?
20:53 view-source:http://lib.ufojs.org/env/javas[…]/glif-renderer.js looks like its the latest release
20:53 and http://lib.ufojs.org/env/glif-renderer.xhtml works
20:54 elih: i think its better to use gh-pages for all our development
20:54 elih: so everything is in one place
20:57 elih: i am on a bit of a rampage with sugar activities strewn about github
20:57 trying to get them all into the sugarlabs github org
20:57 yagarwal davelab6:release for what?
20:57 elih I'll try to implement glif-renderer and see if I have the same problem.
20:57 davelab6 yagarwal: did you use git HEAD?
20:57 yagarwal: or a release version of ufoJS?
20:57 elih ok dave, I'll check it into the gh-pages branch, I understand now.
20:57 yagarwal davelab6: I cloned this repo https://github.com/graphicore/ufoJS
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20:58 davelab6 yagarwal: okay i checked the commit history and https://github.com/graphicore/[…]de1e9b6596c802f25 is the only commit since the 0.9.0 release
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20:58 davelab6 yagarwal: so it looks like a problem with the 0.9.0 release indeed :)
20:59 yagarwal should I continue this or build upon Eli's code
21:01 I also tried implementing the Python/Gtk version and had some issue with the defcon libary and then this issue with the JS/HTML version.. not having a good day today
21:02 elih my code has no JS checked in yet, just html and css, but i'm working selecting glyphs and scrolling through them now.
21:03 yagarwal elih: so you not importing the UFO files and drawing the glyphs?
21:05 elih not yet, but let me put glyph-selecting on hold and try to get glif-renderer working.
21:06 davelab6 yagarwal: dont worry
21:06 yagarwal: this is what the warm up period is for :)
21:06 yagarwal: but if you dont post your code
21:07 yagarwal: we cant review it :D
21:07 yagarwal: please dont worry about posting WIP
21:07 (if you are)
21:09 yagarwal: so i dont konw if you should continue
21:09 yagarwal: as i cant see it :)
21:09 yagarwal: but if you want to drop it, thats all good
21:09 yagarwal davelab6: I don't have any code to upload more than a few import statements, a lines to import the font ufo file after which I couldn't figure out how to get the contour points for each glyph, after this I just need to draw them using GTK in a grid format
21:09 davelab6 yagarwal: you could also try using the earlier 0.5.0 release
21:10 yagarwal: thats plenty to upload!! :D
21:13 yagarwal: lasse replied on https://github.com/graphicore/ufoJS/issues/67 :D
21:16 yagarwal that is for Python/GTK version and then for the JS/HTML one I spend the whole day making the glif-renderer work on my machine.. so new code in that part.. I'll try a few more things on the Python/GTK one and then upload the code in an hour :P
21:16 *looking at Lasse's reply now
21:17 davelab6 yagarwal: okay great D
21:17 :D
21:17 elih awesome thanks :)
21:17 davelab6 i would avoid the 0.5.0 release if you can tho
21:17 stick to git HEAD
21:17 the require.js stuff is a bit unusual
21:17 but its powerful
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21:19 davelab6 hi lasse
21:19 elih hey lasse
21:19 davelab6 pls /nick graphicore
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21:29 elih I made a new folder on gh-pages called mockups, with my html5 mock in it.
21:29 the gtk mock or other html5 mocks should go in the same directory.
21:31 cmdr <cmdr!~graphicor@ip1f10ffb2.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de> has joined #sugar-meeting
21:32 cmdr Hi, im trying to become graphicore but it doesn't accept me, though nickserv identifies me
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21:34 davelab6 cmdr: hmm
21:34 elih: sounds good
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21:36 elih yay yash is back, thanks for your help lasse
21:37 yagarwal Hey, did lasse mention anything apart from the his reply on github?
21:38 cmdr heh?
21:38 elih not yet :)
21:40 yagarwal cmdr: oh, just saw that you used ./serve instead of gulp, let me try that..
21:41 cmdr is now known as graphic0re
21:42 graphic0re hehe 1337!
21:43 yagarwal: I'll still have to fix the tests though.
21:46 so what is the purpose of our gathering?
21:48 yagarwal its working, both the tests and the renderer
21:49 turns out the whole issue was with using gulp-connect :P
21:49 graphic0re Ok thanks! Now the wrongly loading path module gets even more interesting
21:50 A "normal" http-server should serve this properly though, I wonder what the problem of gulp-connect is.
21:51 I lately use usually the "http-server" command installed via npm install http-server
21:51 it's a pretty fast and simple server
21:54 elih ok, good to know. We are still somewhat on the fence about doing this project with Python/gtk or html5/js. Any thoughts or advice GraphicC0re?
21:55 graphic0re what is the nature of the project? I'm not initiated.
21:55 elih I'm leaning towards HTML5/js...
21:55 yagarwal here is a introduction: https://sugarlabs.github.io/edit-fonts-activity/
21:58 short version: we are making a font editing activity for Sugar OS, our moto: Low floor No Ceiling ie. suitable for complete beginners yet powerful enough to make some actual fonts
21:59 graphic0re if you can at some point leave the html5 realm and run fonttools (maybe via fontmake) to turn the ufo into a otf, then html5 should be fine choice
21:59 also, if you already know (and like?) how to make a ui with web technology, this may be a fine choice.
22:01 yagarwal what about performance?
22:01 elih yes, I have experience writing python scripts, but i'm finding gtk a bit tricky to work with...
22:02 I would like this to work on ARM single board computers, primarily the Raspberry Pi 3.
22:03 graphic0re yeah, I did something with gtk. if you need a custom tool, like a glyph editing canvas, you'll probably write all the handles etc. yourself
22:03 davelab6 lol @ l33t
22:04 graphic0re: you think the metapolator ufo -> otf compiler isnt good enough?
22:04 graphic0re speed is a hard thing to say.
22:05 for the graphical stuff gtk may be faster, python is a bit slower than js
22:05 davelab6 elih: in your latest blog post you mention osbuild not for arm, but i dont know hwy :) the xo-4 is ARM
22:05 and xo-1.75
22:05 graphic0re html5 comes with easy to use events etc. if you go with svg it may be slower with canvas it may be faster
22:05 davelab6 so for 5-6 years sugar has been multi-arch
22:06 graphic0re but both is porbably no real problem
22:07 davelab6 i kind of feel like sugar pygtk3 is stronger than sugarizer
22:07 graphic0re davelab6: when it comes to OT features there's a lot stuff missing
22:07 davelab6 there are more sugar devs familiar with it
22:07 graphic0re: yeah :)
22:07 graphic0re: but almost all XO kids are in latin america
22:07 graphic0re davelab6: didn't you say yourself the otfs are bad?
22:07 davelab6 graphic0re: so OT features is out of scope for this GSOC
22:08 graphic0re: they arent as well engineered as fontmake, but they work well enough for prototypo
22:08 graphic0re: so i think they are ok for kids
22:08 its also possible we could do a '3rd way'
22:08 with a python core
22:08 and a web UI
22:09 graphic0re davelab6: certainly, the effect of making individual glyphs and suddenly being able to write something has some magic on it's own
22:09 davelab6 like http://cdn.novacut.com/bus.png
22:10 graphic0re: we might even scope the core UI to all caps
22:10 graphic0re: sugar doesnt have pyqt tho
22:10 graphic0re: so we cant use defconQt :(
22:10 graphic0re: that was my first though
22:10 thought
22:11 graphic0re defcon is a nice thing to have as well
22:12 Actually, the MOM could be used instead. You don't have to use the CPS stuff ;-)
22:13 yagarwal davelab6: will Sugar support this '3rd way' and is there any current sugar activity doing this?
22:14 graphic0re: what is MOM?
22:15 graphic0re Metapolator Object Model
22:16 I wouldn't sleep well if you bet on it right now ;-) Though personally I would use it, because I know how to hack it.
22:16 is pulling in a dependency like webkitgtk an option? http://webkitgtk.org/
22:18 yagarwal: defcon is a good starting point I think. It gives you change notifications for all of UFO and history management (undo/redo).
22:19 elih I have not looked at webkitgtk+ yet, thanks :)
22:19 graphic0re The MOM can notify you of changes and there's quite some code for drawing etc, but no undo/redo and no coverage for all of ufo
22:20 i.e. changing fontinfo would be supported by defcon but not by MOM
22:21 yagarwal elih: should we ask the sugar-devel list if someone has thought of a Hybrid activity before?
22:21 elih yes, good idea.
22:21 graphic0re I can't judge if you need this kind of stuff and I don't know if the way defcon does it is good or bad. I'd probably do it differently.
22:23 elih what is glyphr-studio using for the things the MOM handles?
22:23 graphic0re It's own thing I guess.
22:24 elih ok, i'll try to figure out what glyphr-studio uses tonight.
22:25 graphic0re I think, if you really want to keep it easy, you don't want to go too deep into how-to-model-my-font land.
22:27 For a real world app, having some feedback fontinfo, as an example, is important.
22:27 If you change there the UPM of your font, you want all the glyphs drawn in your app to change.
22:28 I mean, you can't draw a glyph without knowing it's upm, so if that changes you need to be notified, so you can update.
22:28 davelab6 graphic0re: mom instead of ufojs?
22:29 graphic0re: sugar already uses webkitgtk
22:29 graphic0re davelab6: no, ufojs just reads the ufo, validates it, and ten you need to put the data somewhere.
22:29 MOM or your own Object Model is such a place
22:30 davelab6 elih: its own thing
22:30 elih: glyph v1 is all home grown
22:30 elih: no external libs at all
22:30 elih: its got a mapping to TTX
22:30 elih: and thus to opentype.js
22:30 graphic0re: there will be no UPM option, let along changing it
22:31 graphic0re These Objects can then be used in your editor to draw, change and so on
22:31 davelab6 graphic0re: for kids it is S I M P L E
22:31 graphic0re hehe :-)
22:31 davelab6 graphic0re: literally you would enter family name and pick styles from a list
22:31 graphic0re So you're maybe not in need for defcon after all.
22:32 davelab6 i also think that the font editor is not much use with out a font manager for sugar
22:32 and it will be hard to get fonts made in a web based font editor into any other wbe based sugarizer activity
22:33 on monday we discussed that yagarwal  and elih would compare web vs gtk
22:33 but i am still thinking that despite the hassle of learning GTK
22:33 we will have a better product in 3 months with GTK
22:33 with web, we can do the UI quickly
22:33 but the libraries are less mature
22:33 yagarwal so we should make our own object model for Sugar :)
22:33 davelab6 and the integratoin into other apps is much less mature
22:34 yagarwal how difficult a task will that be, davelab6, graphicore any ideas?
22:35 graphic0re I really can't judge what will yield the better app in the end.
22:36 The drawing tool will be the most demanding thing.
22:37 let's say the "canvas". The rest, for a simple tool for kids, I think that's all doable.
22:38 Hmm, you should have same preview thing as well.
22:40 I'm saying the drawing tool will be demanding, because there are many directions you can go, how drawing should actually work. And making it cool for kids may add an extra layer of work.
22:41 Preview is good if can either create and use fonts on the fly, or if you can use harfbuzz for shaping.
22:42 harfbuzz, though, would also need a dummy font to output shaping.
22:43 yagarwal looking only at the drawing tool/canvas-- which way is it easier to implement Web UI or GTK?
22:43 graphic0re things like a tabular selection and preview of glyphs, loading and saving font files etc. shouldn't be so hard.
22:44 I made something similar (but easier) in GTK with Cairo once. I think it can be done.
22:45 You have to come up with your own way to detect if a handle is pulled and such.
22:46 with canvas I never did it, but I'd expect the same thing to be needed, unless you use sone library that helps you there (d3.js ?)
22:46 yagarwal I found this on the sugar wiki http://www.tortall.net/mu/wiki/CairoTutorial-- I think this is directly relevant to us
22:46 graphic0re With svg you can actually use normal dom elements and  events
22:49 yagarwal graphic0re: yeah, d3.js will be good, infact it was my first preference in my proposal, its also well documented and has a lot of examples
22:51 graphic0re I must admit that I'm not a big friend of their API design.
22:53 yagarwal oh, its 4am here, I'll have to leave now; I will make a blog post with my code and current progress first thing tomorrow/or today.:P
22:53 graphic0re But if they make it easier for you to work with canvas, do it.
22:54 davelab6 yagarwal: http://www.tortall.net/mu/wiki/CairoTutorial looks fine
22:54 graphic0re Ok, it's 1am here. we're only 3 hours apart.
22:54 yagarwal graphic0re:it was nice talking to you, thank you for input and hope if you join us in our next meeting tomorrow
22:54 davelab6 thanks yagarwal
22:54 sleep well
22:55 yagarwal: lets review whatever you have in the sync tomorrow
22:55 graphic0re sure, if I can help with something more concrete I'm happy :-)
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22:55 graphic0re is now known as graphicore
22:56 graphicore haha! I got my name back
22:56 davelab6 elih: what do you think about what i said about the ecosystem?
22:57 elih also a 1337 name :)
22:57 graphicore but it lacks the 13375p34k
22:58 elih I agree, so you are leaning towards python/webUI?
23:03 or just py/gtk, what do you mean by 'the ecosystem' sorry.
23:17 graphicore elih: This: "and the integratoin into other apps is much less mature"?
23:24 elih yes, well we should make a firm decision tomorrow, I need to do some more research. The UI can be hacked to look nice, but having a responsive/fast drawing experience that works well on older XO's should be the number one goal.
23:26 I was also looking forward to diving into the Trufont/defcon code more -- I'm a RoboFont user looking to move to an all libre-software work flow. :)
23:33 graphicore Supposingly, when you're going with GTK you'll have a lot of closely related code to look at then.
23:34 speedwise, for the drawing experience, if there's no inherent flaw neither a web based solution nor gtk/cairo should be too slow
23:34 it's not so much happening there after all.
23:40 elih right, well, I have to go eat dinner but it was nice to meet you and thanks for all your help! We'll keep you updated on what we learn.
23:41 elih has quit IRC
23:45 davelab6 yeah
23:46 by ecosystem i mean getting a font from the editor into another activity
23:46 ok i gotta eat too
23:46 thanks again lasse
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