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#sugar-meeting, 2016-03-04

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Time Nick Message
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14:54 cjl good morning CanoeBerry walterbender
14:57 CanoeBerry cjl: ciao!
14:57 See y'all in 1 hour.
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16:00 meeting * Jose_Miguel-es has joined
16:00 walterbender hola
16:00 shall we begin?
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16:00 walterbender #start-meeting
16:00 meeting Meeting started Fri Mar  4 16:00:36 2016 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
16:00 JM_ <JM_!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:00 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> Hello!
16:00 llaske hi
16:00 walterbender CanoeBerry, you still here?
16:01 I am hoping tony and chris show up to discuss i18n
16:01 CanoeBerry Hi, yes.
16:01 walterbender in the meantime, maybe we can discuss GSoC
16:01 #topic GSoC
16:02 kaametza_ <kaametza_!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:02 walterbender Good news is we are accepted again
16:02 GrannieB <GrannieB!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:02 walterbender we seem to have a lot of interest from potential interns
16:02 llaske +1 great
16:02 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> Excellent!
16:02 walterbender a few seem really outstanding
16:02 llaske Another good news, Michaël is agree to be mentor this year
16:02 icarito hi all great
16:02 llaske just had a chat with him
16:03 (Michaël was my student last year)
16:03 walterbender one student has made numerous patches to all parts of the stack and both Python and JS apps.
16:03 tony___ <tony___!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:03 llaske nice
16:03 walterbender llaske, did you send him an invite?
16:03 llaske few minutes ago
16:03 walterbender One caveat re GSoC
16:03 I don't know how many slots we will get.
16:04 Not even sure when we will be told
16:04 llaske that always the question
16:04 walterbender I am hoping we get 6 like last year.
16:04 llaske I will give a conference to the school I'm working next week to recruit
16:04 aguirrea <aguirrea!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:04 walterbender llaske, +1
16:04 llaske Hope to have about 100 students there
16:04 CanoeBerry tony___: welcome..seems we have quorum
16:05 walterbender tony___, glad you could join us
16:05 tony___, what time is it for you?
16:05 tony___ high
16:05 hi
16:05 walterbender :)
16:05 CanoeBerry Just after midnight in the Philippines.
16:05 cjl_ <cjl_!~chatzilla@2601:14b:8000:8d63:223:69ff:fe00:2e1c> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:05 icarito i'd like to revisit the freedesktop compatibility with a GSoC slot - it's silly that we have to have wrappers for things like gcompris
16:05 walterbender In any case, I think it will be a decent GSOC experience again this year.
16:06 icarito we're missing out on a lot of software for wanting to be a platform
16:06 llaske Walter, I think to adapt a bit the proposal template for students to add something on Sugar-web
16:06 walterbender llaske, sure
16:06 tony___ icarito what is your alternative?
16:06 llaske Like create a hello world app in Sugar-Web
16:06 walterbender icarito, feel free to add a project description to the wiki
16:06 cjl_ is now known as cjl
16:07 walterbender hi cjl
16:07 Ibiam <Ibiam!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:07 icarito tony___, there is a standard called .desktop files - sugar should be able to launch linux apps from a set of those
16:07 kaametza_ good day everybody :D
16:07 icarito tony___, there are a bunch of tweaks that could be made to accomodate regular linux apps
16:07 cjl Sorry, Iwas in and then my connection bounced
16:08 Ibiam good day everyone
16:08 tony___ icarito - it would be nice if stop on the wrapper stopped the wrapped program and that the icons showed correctly in the frame
16:08 walterbender icarito, the flip side is that it is not so hard to launch sugar apps from the desktop... I think if we have some great apps that people can access outside of sugar it may drive interest in the platform
16:09 any other comments re GSoC?
16:09 icarito walterbender, yes, I will copy all of this from my previous years gsoc ideas proposal
16:09 maybe we can allocate it this year
16:09 tony___ walter - 00:09
16:09 walterbender icarito, all depends on the students
16:10 icarito walterbender, agreed
16:10 Claudia <Claudia!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:10 walterbender shall we have the i18n discussion while we have everyone here?
16:11 icarito ...and the mentor vote ;-)
16:11 CanoeBerry Claudia: welcome!
16:11 walterbender #topic i18n
16:11 Claudia Hi CanoeBerry@
16:12 walterbender tony___, wanna lead the discussion?
16:12 icarito walterbender, you need to startmeeting for using #topic
16:12 tony___ ok - I hope most of you have seen the wiki page on this topic
16:12 walterbender icarito, I already did a startmeeting
16:12 CanoeBerry http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Translation_Proposal
16:12 cjl has quit IRC
16:13 tony___ this documents the proposed role of the translation manager
16:13 icarito ouch sorry walterbender
16:13 tony___ Do I read the rules correctly that we must call this task the localization delegate?
16:13 walterbender tony___, thanks for leading this error
16:13 ^error^effort
16:13 :)
16:14 tony___, I don;t know what rules you are referring to
16:14 tony___ something about that delegates are appointed by the SLOBs but others are appointed by other subgroups
16:15 walterbender tony___, I think that is referring to the goal of having a SLOB delegate within each team
16:15 to ensure better communication
16:16 tony___ it was where we list appointees like ombundsman
16:16 walterbender tony___, I don't think there is any issue here with the title of the role
16:17 and I think the proposal makes a compelling case for establishing the role
16:17 tony___ Well, I would propose localization manager
16:17 walterbender My only concern is to make sure we have a mechanism of accountability
16:17 cjl_also <cjl_also!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:18 tony___ I assume the manager is accountable to the SLOBs and would expect a report each meeting
16:18 CanoeBerry Yes.  I'm very much in favor, naming this role "Translation Coordinator" or whatever is not the issue.
16:18 kaametza_ has quit IRC
16:18 walterbender tony___, I presume from the discussion we are talking about making this a paid position
16:18 CanoeBerry I would favor milestones every quarter.
16:19 tony___ Yes, I think that is appropriate
16:19 walterbender so we will need milestones and reporting built into a contract
16:19 CanoeBerry Milestones could be separated from the contract, with approval by SLOBS every quarter.
16:19 tony___ Agreed and roles and responsibilities
16:19 walterbender CanoeBerry can ask Tony at the SFC to write something up once we decide on the above
16:19 CanoeBerry We don't want layers approving every single milestone..
16:19 kaametza_ <kaametza_!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:19 CanoeBerry *lawyers
16:20 kaametza_ sorry I got disconnected
16:20 walterbender CanoeBerry, we need a contract in order to hire someone
16:20 that has to be done by the SFC
16:20 tony___ I think the manager would propose tasks to us with milestones but would not be undertaking this kind of task directly
16:20 CanoeBerry Yes, the point is that Contract should be kept very simple -- not burdened with micromanaging each milestone.
16:21 walterbender CanoeBerry, agreed. but I would insist on a rigorous reporting schedule
16:21 CanoeBerry Agreed: If milestones (as confirmed by SLOBS each quarter or so) are not met, tehe contract ends.
16:21 sammeister <sammeister!~androirc@> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:21 walterbender CanoeBerry, it will also end when we run out of money
16:22 CanoeBerry :)
16:22 Claudia makes sense
16:22 kaametza_ besides a unique job position, does the board plan to do any open call to the community with the remaining funds?
16:22 sammeister Hello guys, it's good to be back
16:22 walterbender kaametza, there has been an open call for 2+ years
16:22 kaametza_ I mean, we don't have to wait until we ran out of funds to ask for more
16:22 tony___ I hope we're talking on the same page. I think we need someone to manage the overall task which is outlined on the wiki page - we will also need to sponsor specific tasks with milstones
16:23 icarito walterbender, she means an effective open call
16:23 walterbender tony___, +1
16:23 tony___ These I would expect to be proposed by the manager, approved by us, and monitored by the manager
16:23 CanoeBerry tony___, right on
16:23 kaametza_ Tony I did sent an email with a proposal for a Translations Projects Fund
16:23 walterbender icarito, I don't know what you mean... but presumably the manager will make things happen... that is why we are going down this path
16:24 sammeister walterbender, ping
16:24 icarito my point is there isn't anything to "manage" only a bunch of chores
16:24 walterbender sammeister, pong
16:24 icarito so these chores can be done by many people
16:24 GrannieB We need to include some $ for teacher training, student recognition etc
16:24 kaametza_ Tony the need for an open call is important to revitalize the sugar users community
16:24 icarito agreed somebody needs to oversee and keep after projects
16:24 but you "open call" was for translators
16:24 that I read
16:25 sammeister So what going with the translation project
16:25 kaametza_ still there needs to be funds allowed for projects or there wont be any to support
16:25 icarito translators alone don't make i18n happen, as we've learned
16:25 kaametza_ GrannieB: i ='M GLAD YOU UNDERSTAND
16:25 sorry for that
16:25 tony___ As I tried to point out in the wiki page - there are two separate pieces (at least): i18n and l10n. The first requires us to make it possible to do translation. The second are those
16:26 kaametza_ caps looks!
16:26 tony___ who do localization
16:26 CanoeBerry calls-to-action and public reporting (or even facebook/twitter reporting) should be part of the job description IMHO, as cjl posted at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Translation_Proposal
16:26 walterbender icarito, the trip advisor money is for translations which is presumably done by translators. We are proposing tapping into that fund to  pay a manager to make things happen. I don't think we have any disagreement on this
16:27 icarito walterbender, I don't think a manager and translators is going to do it either
16:27 as GrannieB said
16:27 kaametza_ walterbender: is not one por the other
16:27 icarito you need to make it an event and I'm glad there are resources available
16:27 Ibiam has quit IRC
16:27 tony___ There are a couple of urgent issues for the manager. Recovery of the lost translation files and developing a clear procedure for i18n of the sugar-web software
16:27 walterbender icarito, well... if you have things to add to the proposal, please add them
16:27 kaametza_ both instances are needed
16:28 icarito walterbender, I have, and kaametza has proposed too
16:28 but we don't feel you're listening
16:28 walterbender kaametza, I don't know what you are talking about... who is proposing one or the other and not both?
16:28 icarito, I don't know what you are trying to say
16:29 icarito i'm saying I don't think a top down strategy is good for native languages
16:29 kaametza_ great to hear, walterbender so there is going to be a prjects fund open to the community?
16:29 sammeister I don't understand the manager work here
16:29 GrannieB Events cost $
16:29 walterbender icarito, I don't know where you get the idea that we are proposing exclusively a top down approach
16:29 kaametza_ *Projects
16:29 sammeister Hello GrannieB
16:30 CanoeBerry The whole point of the Translation Coordinator is to unblock the process by moving us beyond the The Tyranny of Structurelessness.
16:30 GrannieB Read Tony's excellent (but long report!)
16:30 walterbender kaametza, I presume that the manager will be open to project suggestions within guidelines that he/she develops
16:31 kaametza_ walterbender: the top down approach is the only thing in the translation proposal the committe is presenting
16:31 icarito walterbender, ok so this 'manager' delegate will need a budget to get the chores done and I guess
16:31 walterbender kaametza, again, if you have suggestions, please add them to the wiki... the vagueness is not helpful
16:31 tony___ I don' t understand this. The process is well structured but has suffered from normal entropy and needs some work. However, if we expect someone to localize Sugar and its activities to a local languear
16:32 walterbender tony___, +1
16:32 tony___ We need to give them a simple roadmap and tools
16:32 kaametza_ Tony we had not ask for funds before because we had no idea there where funds available
16:32 cjl <cjl!~chatzilla@2601:14b:8000:8d63:223:69ff:fe00:2e1c> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:32 walterbender there is a simple rule of thumb re management
16:33 tony___ As Walter said, if we can appoint a manager you will have someone to make a proposal to who can bring it to this meeting for review and approval
16:33 sammeister is now known as samsongoddy
16:33 walterbender achieve consensus on the goals and let the means be decided by the people doing the work
16:33 kaametza_ now that we know there are funds, we would like to apply and there is no clear documentation on how to do that
16:33 walterbender I think that is what we are doing
16:33 CanoeBerry Yes
16:34 GrannieB I see the manager as something like an orchestra conductor making sure everyone does what they are supposed to do when they are supposed to do it resulting in a beautiful "performance"
16:34 walterbender kaametza, presumable this person will provide that doiumentation
16:34 icarito tony___, we can make proposals and bring them to the table ourselves
16:34 we need a technician who understands the i18n workflow
16:35 and designs simple roadmaps and tools for each i18n role
16:35 CanoeBerry Sounds great. 25min warning.
16:35 kaametza_ walterbender: the role of the delegate looks pretty technical (as it should be) as that is what deployments are needing; someone supporting their job n Pootle
16:35 walterbender I'd like to propose a motion
16:35 cjl_ <cjl_!~chatzilla@2601:14b:8000:8d63:223:69ff:fe00:2e1c> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:36 tony___ I would like to propose that we name a translation manager and would nominate Chris Leonard.
16:36 GrannieB The manager can coordinate the technicians
16:36 Ibiam <Ibiam!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:36 samsongoddy I agree with GrannieB
16:36 cjl_ is now known as cjl_here
16:37 cjl_here hello
16:37 CanoeBerry We have many cjl's with us today, welcome to all :)
16:37 GrannieB Like a former violinist  conductor directs the bassoonist even though he doesn't know how to play it. He (or she) only needs to know what is possible!
16:37 samsongoddy Lolz
16:37 Ibiam totally correct, GrannieB
16:38 walterbender MOTION: Based on http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Translation_Proposal Tony (and other SLOB members) should write up a job description with goals and reporting structure for a coordinator position to be submitted to the SFC
16:38 cjl has quit IRC
16:38 samsongoddy The must not be a technician
16:38 CanoeBerry Agreed.  Salary and quarterly reporting structure needs precision + professionalism, per GrannieB & others outlines.
16:38 +1
16:38 llaske +1
16:38 cjl_here I'm having an awful time staying in the chat
16:38 Is someone hearing this?
16:38 cjl_here has quit IRC
16:38 walterbender We will then use this as a basis for soliciting applicatons to the position
16:39 samsongoddy What about us here in Africa??
16:39 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> +1
16:39 tony___ Do we need Adam's session on how we make these votes or can we just vote?
16:39 CanoeBerry CLARIF: "quarterly" reporting milestones should NOT be contained in the legal contract.
16:40 tony___: Just a clarification (as there are several new people) that Sugar Labs' Oversight Board motions pass when a majority of the total board seats vote in favor (currently that means a minimum of 4 out of 7 votes are required).  Constitutional-level issues (changing bylaws, election mechanics) require 2/3 of the total board seats voting in favor (currently that means 5 of 7 votes).
16:40 GrannieB ?
16:40 CanoeBerry tony___: Just a clarification that Sugar Labs' Oversight Board voting by email remains in place, as formalized in 2009/2010, so all voices are properly heard from who dedicate themselves to deployment/learning in offline countries.
16:40 tony___ +1
16:41 walterbender no one has seconded the motion that is on the table
16:41 CanoeBerry Seconded.
16:41 samsongoddy What if there are three managers instead representing each continent just like Ubuntu
16:41 tony___ I second the motion
16:41 Claudia +1
16:41 llaske +1
16:41 walterbender further discussion?
16:42 llaske Could you go to another subject ?
16:42 CanoeBerry Just my clarif above -- that legalese micromanaging of future goals should not be in contract.
16:42 GrannieB Wait… Samson has an excellent question above!
16:42 icarito samsongoddy, that's actually a good idea
16:43 tony___ We don't have nearly the resources that Ubuntu has
16:43 icarito let's make a coordinator team why not
16:43 samsongoddy I don't know what you guys agreed on because I believe it will be difficult
16:43 icarito tony___, we don't have the workload ubuntu has either
16:43 llaske Good idea but too complex for us
16:43 Claudia do we have the funds for three managers?
16:43 walterbender samsongoddy, I think the coordinator is going to build the team
16:43 icarito Claudia, if you call them technicians maybe we do
16:43 managers tend to earn more
16:43 Ibiam we might not necessarily pay them all
16:43 icarito it is a technical role
16:43 walterbender and by necessity solicit regional help
16:43 kaametza_ Claudia: we should not centralized ht funds distribution ;D
16:44 samsongoddy Our goal is to run sugar in native languages right?
16:44 Erilyth has quit IRC
16:44 walterbender samsongoddy, yes
16:44 kaametza_ Ibiam: just pay those needed to actually support the infraestructure and pootle workflow
16:44 CanoeBerry And all languages.
16:44 Claudia I am not pushing for a central management, but a good process to get things done
16:44 icarito milestones will speak by themselves I think
16:44 kaametza_ I'd lke to propose Smason and icarito
16:45 samsongoddy Okay Nigeria got about 501 languages alone compare to other in Africa
16:45 walterbender I think we are getting ahead of ourselves
16:45 icarito walterbender, it's only logical
16:45 kaametza_ Claudia: me too! decentralizing resourcres is key for an open project
16:45 tony___ Has the motion been approved?
16:45 CanoeBerry Too many cooks is a real danger we need to watch for.  A fair-minded motivated global coordinator can do wonders if we find the right one!
16:46 GrannieB +1
16:46 CanoeBerry Yes, motion approved.
16:46 walterbender to take words from kaametza we are building a heavy top down structure without evidence that it is needed or will help
16:46 GrannieB Then local sub-coordinators
16:46 icarito CanoeBerry, GrannieB samsongoddy and I did a pretty decent job with the election committee if I may say so myself
16:46 walterbender the motion has not been voted on
16:46 Ibiam and he can also build a team just like walter rightly said
16:46 icarito I enjoyed working with samson
16:46 samsongoddy Thanks
16:47 walterbender I think we are micromanaging and we have not even started yet
16:47 icarito pootle and I have lots of time ahead together if you let me help
16:47 kaametza_ according to our experience, get things done in the translation of sugar reuiresa support from (1) infrastructure team and (2) translation team coordinator
16:47 samsongoddy walterbender what do you think about having three mangers??
16:48 kaametza_ *requires
16:48 walterbender samsongoddy, I think that the person we bring on as coordinator should make that decision
16:48 pikurasa <pikurasa!~Thunderbi@2601:184:4200:2904:10f9:310:bc6b:cfc3> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:48 icarito i think *that* is micromanaging
16:48 CanoeBerry 11min warning.
16:48 walterbender samsongoddy, I think we are over-engineering the problem
16:48 icarito maybe a committee will vet their decision
16:48 kaametza_ that doesnt make any sense walterbender
16:48 icarito :-D
16:49 kaametza_ we are telling you how to simplify it
16:49 llaske I would like to switch to a marketing topic
16:49 kaametza_ you do need Chris
16:49 CanoeBerry walterbender: motion is approved if I count the votes above.
16:49 kaametza_ but you also need icarito and samsongoddy if you want to realy make it happen
16:49 samsongoddy Okay I am just saying what is right
16:49 walterbender CanoeBerry, we never asked for a vote
16:50 tony___ We do have a motion on the floor which has been seconded
16:50 CanoeBerry +1 (reiterating my vote above)
16:50 samsongoddy If you guys remember in sugar 0.104 there were a translation team I set up in Nigeria
16:50 walterbender kaametza, (1) I don't see how 3 is more simple than 1; (2) I don't see how our dictating the structure as opposed to letting the coordinator define it is not micromanaging
16:51 kaametza_ sorry llaske but I would like to propose the Motion for the creation of the Sugar Translations Project's Fund
16:51 walterbender samsongoddy, that team can play well with the manager
16:51 and make proposals to the manager
16:51 kaametza_ walterbender: it is about resources for everybody
16:51 CanoeBerry 8min warning.
16:51 walterbender kaametza, we already have a motion on the table
16:51 samsongoddy Yeah but they are funding problems
16:52 What why there were not help in the sugar 0.108
16:52 walterbender samsongoddy, that is what we may be able to help with, but not without someone looking after the process
16:52 kaametza_ walterbender: I thoug GrannieB said it was approved\
16:52 icarito native languages belong in the grassroots
16:52 walterbender kaametza, she may have said it, but we have yet to cll for a vote
16:52 icarito sugar labs needs to nurture local efforts
16:52 CanoeBerry ahem, llaske & i need to bring up other topics
16:52 kaametza_ +1 icarito
16:52 walterbender we have been discussing
16:53 icarito there is no excuse for not doing so with funds meant for i18n
16:53 GrannieB I think you need to vote to extend the meeting there are other topics that need hearing!
16:53 llaske +1 CanoeBerry
16:53 walterbender CanoeBerry, I don't feel I can cut off the discussion
16:53 icarito ok
16:53 kaametza_ please to apologize any delay but this subject is critical for us
16:53 walterbender GrannieB, We may have to try to meet again next week. I cannot stay past the hour
16:53 llaske Marketing is critical for us too...
16:54 CanoeBerry ok, but I was asked to present during this meeting.
16:54 Ibiam walterbender: ping
16:54 GrannieB nope… didn't say it
16:54 samsongoddy I am not trying to cause problem here but I think my motion should be consider
16:54 walterbender let's vote on the motion on the table
16:54 CanoeBerry +1
16:54 walterbender +1
16:54 llaske +1
16:55 tony___ +1\
16:55 walterbender samsongoddy, we can bring your motion up at the next meeting.
16:55 kaametza_ llaske: marketing is for new users and that is OK if we have a quality product
16:55 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> +1
16:55 CanoeBerry Claudia: ?
16:55 icarito is it valid that samson has made a motion? only slobs can make motions?
16:55 kaametza_ localozation is for existing sugar users
16:55 Claudia +1
16:55 walterbender the motion passes.
16:56 #topic marketing
16:56 llaske Thanks. My point regarding marketing could be sum up in few words:
16:56 kaametza_ llaske: by the way emails to your account keept bouncing :D
16:56 walterbender llaske, the floor is yours
16:56 llaske I had a talk with Sean. I've noted one important thing: to do marketing we need to have a clear strategy.
16:56 So it means that we need to be clear about what is the SugarLabs strategy for the future.
16:56 We've just talked about l10n/l18n that could be a part of our strategy but of course there is plenty other things.
16:56 Other could be related to expand the number of user, expand the number of content, expand the number of device, …
16:56 I think we must take time to write our strategy so we could clearly communicate and do marketing on that.
16:56 cjl_here <cjl_here!~chatzilla@c-69-140-220-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:57 cjl_here aaargh, so much to say, so little cahnceto speak before I get kicked.
16:57 samsongoddy Hello Lionel
16:57 kaametza_ sorry walterbender but I did propose another important motion schedualed for today walterbender: please can I propose the Motion for the creation of the Sugar Translations Project's Fund?
16:57 icarito llaske, a couple of years ago an attempt was made to make a strategic plan (3mo - 6mo) it was requested for each local lab to present their plan, slobs did nothing with this
16:58 walterbender llaske, +1
16:58 llaske we don't need a detailed plan, we need just to share a vision
16:58 samsongoddy congrats with the sugarizer
16:58 GrannieB +1
16:58 llaske @samsongoddy thanks
16:58 walterbender llaske, shall we task you with this in the same fashion that Tony took on the translation task?
16:59 llaske Yes, sure. So we could exchange on this during 45mn on next meeting :-)
16:59 walterbender llaske, we can make it topic #1 :)
16:59 llaske cool :-D
16:59 Claudia good idea
16:59 cjl_here sorry about the technical difficulties preventing him from taking part in discussion.
16:59 walterbender CanoeBerry, you had a topic?
17:00 CanoeBerry Yes, I was asked to explain email voting & removal of board members status quo, and possible cleanup.
17:00 (Just a clarification that Sugar Labs' Oversight Board voting by email remains in place, as formalized in 2009/2010, so all voices are properly heard from who dedicate themselves to deployment/learning in offline countries.)
17:00 The world is now more connected almost a decade later however.
17:00 MOTION to restrict email voting to 1 week going forward, to remove confusion from the current voting process, keeping focus.  Board members' email votes would be required to arrive within One Week Maximum (168.0 hours) of the original motion.  (Any motion that fails to pass within this 1-week sunset period, can of course be attempted again in future, e.g. if long-term overseas/off-grid/medical
17:00 absences require another later vote on the same topic).
17:01 walterbender CanoeBerry, question
17:01 llaske sounds good
17:02 walterbender if there is a majority present, e.g., 1 absent member, can a motion pass without waiting 1 week?
17:02 icarito I don't understand this board's refusal to consider the needs of active contributors in the field and to ignore valuable contributors to Sugar and Sugar Labs
17:02 pikurasa has quit IRC
17:02 walterbender CanoeBerry, ???
17:02 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> I understand that the vote by mail is when they do not reach  in the board?
17:03 CanoeBerry walterbender: are you talking about quorum to start a meeting?  not sure i understand?  that seems seperate.
17:03 pikurasa <pikurasa!~Thunderbi@2601:184:4200:2904:10f9:310:bc6b:cfc3> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:03 walterbender CanoeBerry, say we had 6 of use and voted 4-2
17:03 pikurasa has quit IRC
17:03 walterbender that would pass regardless of the email vote
17:03 icarito it's obvious there are pressing issues to be discussed I would ask the board to meet before one month to address them
17:03 CanoeBerry certainly
17:03 walterbender do we need to wait 1 week?
17:03 GrannieB +1
17:04 samsongoddy walterbender did you ask the sfs team concerning what we discuss about the media
17:04 walterbender CanoeBerry, not sure that certainly referred to
17:04 CanoeBerry oh i see -- no waiting a week implied
17:04 walterbender CanoeBerry, OK
17:04 got it
17:04 any further discussion of CanoeBerry 's motion?
17:04 CanoeBerry Context: Sugar Labs' Oversight Board motions pass when a majority of the total board seats vote in favor (currently that means a minimum of 4 out of 7 votes are required).  Constitutional-level issues (changing bylaws, election mechanics) require 2/3 of the total board seats voting in favor (currently that means 5 of 7 votes).
17:05 kaametza_ Just one qucik question can I start the request for US$ 1,000 for translation basic SAUGAR to Esse Eja?
17:05 tony___ Do all motions such as the one tonight require email voting?
17:05 GrannieB There is a motion on the floor
17:05 walterbender tony___, that was what I was asking.. adam says no.
17:05 CanoeBerry Email voting remains permitted not* required.
17:06 Email voting remains permitted *not* required.
17:06 walterbender works for me
17:06 makes sense and 1 week is reasonable
17:06 Claudia yes
17:06 CanoeBerry I  think so.
17:06 GrannieB If majority w/o the missing votes no need for email
17:06 CanoeBerry Second the motion?
17:06 walterbender let's vote
17:06 I second
17:06 CanoeBerry +!
17:06 tony___ So, as I understand it, if a motion is voted on but there is not a majority, a request for an email vote could be made?
17:06 llaske +1
17:06 CanoeBerry +1
17:06 walterbender tony___, yes
17:06 +1
17:07 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> +1
17:07 tony___ +1
17:07 CanoeBerry tony___, email votes are accepted event w/o request.
17:07 tony___, email votes are accepted even w/o request.
17:07 samsongoddy Lolz I feel like I don't belong to this meeting
17:07 icarito samsongoddy, LOL we can't believe it either
17:07 Ibiam so lost
17:07 tony___ canoeberry - I don't understand how that works. We voted on two motions tonight - how would an email vote come into play?
17:08 walterbender tony___, for completeness only in thiese cases
17:08 motion passes
17:08 icarito i hope for sugar that we can do better than 2 motions per month
17:08 GrannieB #Tony they all passed so ne email vote needed
17:08 walterbender Look. We are out of time and clearly there are more topics to discuss.
17:08 CanoeBerry tony___: a motion passes when it reaches 4 votes from SLOBS members.  e.g. permitting Sameer Verma (who missed this meeting) to vote within 168.0 hours of any motion.
17:08 walterbender can people meet again next week?
17:08 CanoeBerry No fancy process.  Just a clarification.
17:08 Claudia yes, but I need to leave now
17:08 samsongoddy Sure
17:09 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> *Yes
17:09 walterbender I need to leave now too...
17:09 llaske not sure but I will try
17:09 samsongoddy bye Claudia
17:09 CanoeBerry I'm in Haiti for most of the coming 2 weeks; cannot meet unfort.
17:09 llaske next meeting ?
17:09 next month ?
17:09 kaametza_ this is as joke?
17:09 llaske 8th april ?
17:09 samsongoddy That's far
17:09 walterbender llaske, I am hoping we can meet next week as we have much more to discuss and no time
17:10 cjl_here willing to stick around to discuss any questions anyone has about how I see a L10n manager position working.
17:10 samsongoddy Yeah your right
17:10 llaske "Official" SLOB meeting on 8th April
17:10 it was my question
17:10 CanoeBerry "Fri Apr 1 1600 UTC" is our next meeting by default.
17:10 samsongoddy Okay
17:10 llaske okay
17:10 walterbender llaske, is 1 April a problem?
17:10 tony___ canoeberry - a foolish time for a meeting
17:10 kaametza_ llaske: we are in the Amazon waiting for funds!
17:10 GrannieB I suggest that future motions on major issues be written in advance and placed on the agenda. Minor ones "on-the-fly" OK
17:10 llaske no that's okay for me
17:11 samsongoddy It was great meeting with your guys
17:11 walterbender I need to go... I will be here next week and if we have a quorum we can have a formal meeting. Otherwise, we can have a discussion
17:11 kaametza_ I have met the schools with the XO's on the sleves beacuse the software is not relevant to indigenous communities as t comes
17:11 walterbender my apologies that we ran out of time.
17:11 kaametza_ please do not waist any more time
17:12 GrannieB The meeting time should be to discuss and amend if needed major motions
17:12 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> *Ok. *Bye
17:12 cjl_here kaametza I had shared a template on the e-mail list about L10n contracts.  Crafting a custom version of Exhibit 1 is the key step, I'd be willing to help you do that for Peruvian langs you propose.
17:12 kaametza_ GrannieB: I did propose a motion and I was ignored
17:12 I felt like a bulling victim
17:12 samsongoddy Lolz
17:12 meeting * Jose_Miguel has quit (Quit: Page closed)
17:13 cjl_here That is essentially the "translation fund" you are talking about.
17:13 Claudia byt now
17:13 Claudia has quit IRC
17:13 walterbender kaametza, (1) you proposed a motion in the middle of a discussion of a different motion (2) other people had topics to discuss as well. we ran out of time
17:13 CanoeBerry kaametza): i was asked to present during this meeting a month ago and not given the chance (on SLOBS board member removal) due to time..
17:13 kaametza_ cjl_here: yes but the fun goes beyond paper work
17:14 cjl_here fcourse, but funding comes from paperwork, no way around it.
17:14 kaametza_ it does structurate a workflow for funds to keep comming and for translations to start flowing
17:15 icarito samson intervened during topic #1
17:15 as did we
17:15 JM_ has quit IRC
17:15 CanoeBerry Claudia: SVerma: plz vote on the above motions by email within the coming week, per your fiduciary duty please -- or abstain if nec, Thanks!
17:15 kaametza_ dvisor, etc\
17:15 cjl_here the proposal should name the language, the specific strings to be done and propose milestone-based payments for completing those strings
17:16 samsongoddy Icarito intervened?
17:16 icarito samsongoddy, in this case "made a proposal"
17:16 cjl_here If you want to propose logistics costs, go ahead, andthey will be discussed by SLOBs.
17:17 kaametza_ yes but only, from my eamil you can read all the logic activirties that are needed before we can find and reclure a good translator
17:18 I made an effor to make a clear description of the effort needed, is not just strings
17:18 GrannieB Why not put motions and proposals in writing in advance of the meeting… in the agenda as topics to be discussed and voted on. Most organizations do this. It streamlines the process.
17:18 cjl_here then define those activites and associated costs in the proposal.
17:18 strings are the measurable product of the actions funded.
17:19 GrannieB Key here is "in the agenda!"
17:19 email not good
17:19 samsongoddy I am not till please with the proposal
17:19 kaametza_ GrannieB: I did send an specific email about this
17:20 GrannieB Question… can any SL member propose a motion or only SLOBS?
17:20 icarito GrannieB, yes that's not fair Laura specifically addressed both the committee and IAEP
17:20 cjl_here kaametza are you talking about your Translation Fund idea?
17:20 kaametza_ GrannieB: the subject is Sugar Translations Projects Fund
17:20 cjl_here: yes
17:21 GrannieB The agenda is the place for motions. Not emails or meetings. They could be discussed in emails and in the meetings if needed
17:21 cjl_here kaametza the same goal is achievedby written proposals on specific languages with milestones, like was donefor Aymara.
17:21 kaametza_ I was surprised nobody answered my eamil
17:21 but I did receive just 1 bouncing note from llaske
17:22 cjl_here: I don't  know how it was done for aymara actually
17:22 cjl_here kaametza If you create a writen proposal based on the template I had sent out, it will be considered by SLOBs for funding.
17:22 GrannieB Don't feel bad. Nobody replied to mine about teacher training and student resources… but Tony read it and put it in his report. Tony does a superb job! As always.
17:22 kaametza_ you mean the contract?
17:23 cjl_here kaametza Walter shared the actual language of the Aymara agreement with the list
17:23 icarito GrannieB, your idea was put in the wiki, hers was not
17:23 GrannieB Maybe Tony didn't see it
17:23 kaametza_ before we meet Edgar there were years of activities reaching to people to help, you may not be aware of how much that costs but it does
17:24 icarito cjl_here, you did this without coordinating with the actual aymara deployment
17:24 the aymara translations collided with local efforts
17:24 it was a mess
17:24 by the way
17:24 cjl_here icarito this started at SugarCamp Lima in2010
17:24 kaametza_ when you guys hired he had already been working and had been trained by us at Puno and at Lima
17:24 icarito yes but I'm talking about the contract SLOBs did with Edgar for translating aymara
17:25 recently
17:25 cjl_here icarito how do you think it should havebeen done?
17:25 kaametza_ there is no way you will get a good trained translator out of thin air
17:26 it does matter now
17:26 what matter is how it should be done from now on
17:26 icarito at least it should've been announced publicly that this was being done
17:26 so that others can work with/around it
17:26 not collide
17:26 cjl_here kaametza not thin air, but many of our L10ns come from people we only meet over the internet. Obviously indigenous languages often require additional effort, so put it in a written proposal.
17:27 kaametza_ there sould be resources for community reach, exchange, translator scouting , trainning, conection, etc
17:27 ok
17:27 cjl_here kaametza so propose it and let SLOBs vote on it.
17:27 icarito I think the translation committee has not understood the complexities of *native* language tranlation
17:27 it's not like going for french
17:27 :-D
17:28 kaametza_ but please do consider the formal creation of the Projects Translation Funds, so we don't ran out of resources in the mid term ;D
17:29 Trip Advisor may like some publicity like "Gold Sponsor"
17:29 many more sponsor can be dounf
17:29 *found
17:30 cjl_here icarito: I don't kniowexactly what you are implying,can you be more clear?
17:30 llaske Sorry, need to disconnect. Don't forget to close the meeting !
17:30 kaametza_ of course
17:31 cjl_here hmm, looks like nobody officially ended the meeting.
17:31 llaske #endmeeting
17:31 GrannieB +1
17:31 llaske that's right ?
17:31 cjl_here #end-meeting
17:31 llaske :-)
17:31 cjl_here nope, not yet
17:32 GrannieB I think WB usually does it
17:32 llaske #close-meeting
17:32 :-D
17:32 cjl_here http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
17:32 llaske so endmeeting was good :-)
17:32 kaametza_ I know, still I would like you to understand that the point of creating a fund is to make it a continous process
17:32 GrannieB guess so
17:32 kaametza_ not just one time only
17:32 llaske has quit IRC
17:33 icarito cjl_here, sorry something came up and distracted me
17:33 i'm not trying to imply anything it was written to IAEP at the time
17:33 GrannieB How can it be continuing if we don't know the grant money will be continuing?
17:33 walterbender #end-meeting
17:33 GrannieB because we don't
17:33 meeting Meeting ended Fri Mar  4 17:33:28 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
17:33 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-04T16:00:36.html
17:33 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]16-03-04T16:00:36
17:33 walterbender sorry about that :P
17:34 kaametza_ GrannieB: the job description for the translation delegate should include funds raising
17:34 cjl_here kaametza There are the Trip Advisor funds that new local language proposals will be drawing from.
17:35 kaametza_ seed capital for the Translation's Fund :D
17:36 cjl_here There are currently adequate funds to get a decent number of efforts going.  But efforts can't be entirely open-ended.  They need tohave milestones and meet them.
17:36 kaametza_ now will make the proposal as you suggested, still not sure which way to go with it
17:36 cjl_here Let me help.
17:37 kaametza_ cjl_here: I do agree, please do keep in mind I coordinated the hole Awajun translation
17:37 samsongoddy kaametza_, how many languages will u be translating?
17:37 cjl_here Ido see part of the delegate/managerrole as being in assisting people access the available resources (money, tools, Pootle, etc.) to get thte necessary work done.
17:37 kaametza_ I will share scheduales and budgets alltough they are in Spacish
17:37 cjl_here kaametza That is excellent work, a proposal to support it would be most welocome, I'm sure.
17:38 kaametza_ samsongoddy: I do logistcs for translations to happen ;D
17:38 cjl_here samsongoddy: I saw in the backscroll you asked about Africa.  I am currently assisting the Lingal effort to get going on glibc locale and GNOME L10n.
17:38 kaametza_ now I'm n the Amazon rainforest and would love to be able to translate at least 3 of the indigenouse languages soon
17:39 cjl_here I'd love to work with more African language communities.
17:40 We have a great volunteer effort going in Igbo right now.
17:40 samsongoddy Which language is lingal
17:40 icarito GrannieB, cjl_here here's Laura's lost email http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ruary/017744.html
17:41 samsongoddy Yeah a friend of mine is working in the igbo
17:41 cjl_here sorry, Lingala from CD  isocode ln
17:42 samsongoddy Nigeria  have three general languages part from English
17:42 Igbo, hausa, yoruba
17:43 There are lots of languages in Nigeria
17:43 So that why I was pressing for funding
17:43 cjl_here We have Hausa and Yoruba on Pootle, all we need are translators :-)
17:44 samsongoddy Yeah but one thing is that funding is the issue.
17:45 cjl_here I'll work on a template for the milestones/associated costs that you can use to propose a language effort andput it on the wiki.
17:45 GrannieB has quit IRC
17:45 cjl_here samsongoddy: funds are available, the only thing needed is a written proposal and SLOBs approval.  I'll help with proposal writing.
17:46 kaametza_ have to go cjl_here nice talking to you
17:46 cjl_here kaametza let's keep in touch to advance proposal writing.
17:46 kaametza_ samsongoddy: please do have patiente with grownups we are trying to figure it out on how to save the world :D
17:47 cjl_here We need to add in glibc localedevelopment likewe did for Awajun.
17:47 kaametza_ we'll write to you soon :D
17:47 cjl_here ok, lookingforwardto it.
17:47 kaametza_ samsongoddy: take care
17:48 Ibiam cjl_here: the proposal will soon be drafted, there are other languages in nigeria that need to be added and we also need help in those languages
17:48 kaametza_ has quit IRC
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17:48 cjl_here Ibiam: besides Hausa and Yoruba?
17:48 Ibiam yeah
17:49 like effik
17:49 cjl_here which ones?  I'd like to check if there are glibc locales for them, if not we will need to develop them. I do a lot of that.
17:50 Ibiam one problem is the no. of translators for these languages
17:50 cjl_here Do you know any?
17:50 Ibiam some of us translating are not proficient in the above languages, but we know people who are
17:51 cjl_here If they don't speak Englsih, we can translate from French instead.
17:51 Ibiam in Nigeria, no one really does such for free
17:51 that's why we were talking about the funds
17:51 cjl_here Ibiam: would they do it for15 - 30 cents per word?
17:51 Ibiam and there are not much french speakers in the country
17:52 we haven't negotiated with anybody yet
17:52 cjl_here Ibiam: Just offering options. It is important for Peruvian and Mexican languages that we can do it from Spanish.
17:52 doyou knowthe language code for effik?
17:53 Ibiam that is a different case, in Nigeria there are so many lanuages and there are not much similarities between them
17:53 cjl_here Wedo have Fulah on Pootle also
17:54 Ibiam that's great
17:54 i think it's part of the hausa tribe
17:54 cjl_here Fulfulde
17:54 Ibiam for effik it might be efik
17:54 cjl_here Again, we need translators.
17:55 ok  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efik_language
17:56 isocode efi
17:56 Ibiam I'm at a cafe and my time is almost up
17:56 what's your facebook handle
17:56 cjl_here reach me  by e-mail cjl@sugarlabs.org
17:56 I'm not much of a facebooker
17:57 Ibiam okay it's ibiamchihurumnaya@gmail.com
17:57 cjl_here ok
17:57 I'll send you an idea I have of how to get started with minimal effort involved, but big impact.
17:57 Ibiam i need help on the email service
17:58 okay
17:58 cjl_here developing a glibc locale that will work for all versions of Linux
17:58 Key first step
17:59 Ibiam i try adding my sugarlabs account to my gmail and at the smtp server point i get this error "Authentication failed. Please check your username/password. [Server response: 535 5.7.8 Error: authentication failed: code(535) ]"
18:00 cjl_here hmmm, I neverhad a problem doing that
18:01 Ibiam i don't know why it's that way in my own case
18:01 we'll talk by email, my time is almost up
18:01 cjl_here Take care
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21:13 irma Hello
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22:50 ignacio Hello, I was watching the danish girl. A good movie. Sorry for not being able to attend
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