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#sugar-meeting, 2015-07-20

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20:59 tch__ ping *
21:00 gonzalo__ hello tch__
21:01 samdroid <samdroid!~sam@reserved-62-166.grapevine.net.au> has joined #sugar-meeting
21:01 gonzalo__ hi samdroid, walterbender
21:01 Quozl`, ?
21:01 samdroid g'day
21:01 Quozl` hi
21:01 gonzalo__ plarke, thanks for Browse patch ;)
21:01 Quozl` about to leave for an appointment.
21:01 walterbender hi
21:02 may get pulled away for a few minutes
21:02 gonzalo__ Quozl`, good luck with all
21:02 tch__, want start?
21:02 plarke gonzalo__, welcome, very simple one
21:02 tch__ #start-meeting
21:03 meeting Meeting started Mon Jul 20 21:02:59 2015 UTC. The chair is tch__. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:03 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
21:03 tch__ Hello eveyone
21:03 gonzalo__ plarke, every one help
21:03 samdroid g'day
21:03 gonzalo__ hi samdroid :)
21:04 samdroid so we start the meeting?
21:04 gonzalo__ yes
21:04 tch__ well, basically, this first meeting is an "informal" one :) but the topics are: 1. what do we and deployments want for 0.108 and 2. when do we want it? (sounds like this http://www.quickmeme.com/What-[…]e-Want/?upcoming)
21:05 gonzalo__ :)
21:05 tch__ I would also like to start talking about the previous cycle,
21:06 does anybody wants to make comments? (regarding the cycle itself, e.g, was it too long, too short, whatever)
21:06 walterbender seems like from the tech POV you guys did a great job
21:06 samdroid it was pretty nice
21:07 gonzalo__ honestly, we achieved more than i expected
21:07 tch__ walterbender, I feel though, we had _very_ little feedback from the deployments though, except for german who helped us with the tests,
21:07 walterbender yes
21:07 samdroid +1
21:07 walterbender I was about raise that point
21:07 gonzalo__ tch__, deployments are usually slow to provide feedback
21:07 walterbender I feel a bit at sea in terms of deployment needs/concerns
21:08 for planning the next release
21:08 Quozl` i also feel there is no feedback from deployments, as if they have abandoned the development process.
21:08 walterbender so I suggest we look at what would help with long-term maintenance
21:09 they presumably want stability
21:09 and we presumably want to lessen the support burden
21:09 Quozl` i suspect they have achieved stability by rejecting all problem reports from users.
21:09 tch__ walterbender, in my experience I am sure they want stability and a nice browser,
21:09 samdroid ;)
21:09 *:)
21:10 walterbender to a large extent stability these days is keeping current with our upstream
21:10 Quozl` i agree, and possibly that their browser concerns often trump any other problems.
21:10 samdroid good luck with a nice browser
21:10 WebKit2 we need new apis upstream (or to rewrite the whole history system)
21:11 and if we were to go CEF we're going to uncharted (and unpackaged?) terrirory
21:11 *CEF/servo
21:11 Quozl` leaves
21:11 gonzalo__ bye Quozl`
21:11 samdroid, what is CEF/servo?
21:12 walterbender back in 5
21:12 samdroid gonzalo__: cef=chromiume emdeded framework.  servo is mozillas new browser and it uses the cef api
21:12 gonzalo__: cef is probs a better browser - google spends more on browsers than apple does... now at least
21:13 tch__ samdroid, what the relation with webkit? does it use wk or is a new thing?
21:13 samdroid blink - the webkit fork
21:13 tch__ samdroid, ah, yeah
21:14 samdroid it's something to look into - but it would definatly end up with c code in browse
21:14 gonzalo__ samdroid, well, that is not compatible with old linux (like F18) nor with new right now
21:14 samdroid gonzalo__: wk2?
21:14 Quozl` i think the webkit2 browse is something to concentrate on, and the telepathy api.  bye.
21:14 tch__ samdroid, hmm, we probably need to evaluate its pros
21:14 gonzalo__ blink and the new google stuff
21:14 tch__ Quozl`, thanks for your 2cents :)
21:15 samdroid webkit 2 pros:  gi.repository bindings
21:15 tch__ samdroid, thats a big noe
21:15 s/noe/one
21:16 samdroid webkit2 -:  no history api
21:17 tch__ samdroid, I think the users big concer are related to whether or not they can display their websites
21:17 samdroid ok
21:17 gonzalo__ samdroid, yes, but other than that, we are pretty close
21:18 tch__ samdroid, gonzalo__ is there any work related to webkit2 in browse already?
21:18 samdroid yes
21:18 gonzalo__ tch__, yes
21:18 samdroid it works ok
21:18 but not histroy/persistance
21:18 gonzalo__ we have a branch webkit2, and is working
21:18 samdroid or the edit menu
21:19 gonzalo__ that are the main issues
21:19 tch__ samdroid, is that a regression in webkit? or we need to adapt browse?
21:19 gonzalo__ and the problem is, the webkit2 removed api that we use
21:19 tch__ gonzalo__, ouch,
21:19 gonzalo__, removed from webkit or the bindings?
21:19 gonzalo__ samdroid.maybe we could get the history using javascript?
21:19 tch__ gonzalo__, is it intentional?
21:19 gonzalo__ tch__, yes
21:20 samdroid gonzalo__: we can get the history 100% fine
21:20 gonzalo__ tch__, samdroid already filled a bug
21:20 samdroid but we can not set the history
21:20 gonzalo__ samdroid, true
21:20 samdroid ok so maybe I'll chase that one up
21:20 gonzalo__ i forgotten that
21:20 tch__ samdroid, ok, so this things is already moving..
21:20 gonzalo__, ^
21:20 samdroid CEF doesn't seem to have a history api at 1st look - not seeing a set history func
21:20 yeah
21:21 tch__ samdroid, gonzalo__ last question regarding webkit2, any chance it would work on f18?
21:21 or we would need to maintain a webkit1 fork for f18?
21:22 gonzalo__ tch__, i think will be better get the webkit1 on f18
21:22 tch__ gonzalo__, ok
21:23 another important topic is collaboration,
21:23 samdroid^ +1
21:23 tch__ has anyone looked into collaboration stack recently/
21:23 ?
21:24 basically, telepathy dropped Tubes channel... which is what we use for collab
21:24 they dropped it a long time ago, btw, 2011/12
21:24 I haven't looked into the details, but it does not seems to be a trivial work
21:25 the only workaround for newer distros is to use an older version of telepathy gabble,
21:26 but that can't be considered a solution since newer telepathy is used by other DE apps
21:27 putting package maintainers on a problematic situation
21:27 samdroid so is the plan to port it to the new telepathy api version?
21:28 tch__ samdroid, that would be ideal, but first we need to understand whats in telepathy now, to see if its possible...
21:28 samdroid ok
21:28 tch__ samdroid, another route could be to find a different tech,
21:28 samdroid yep
21:29 tch__ samdroid, but in any case, I won't be easy... specially because there are many activities to adapt
21:29 samdroid (I have no idea how collab stack works)
21:29 tch__ I am not even sure how many,
21:29 samdroid oh, yeah they all use tp directly
21:29 tch__ samdroid, I know very little too, just the basics
21:30 samdroid maybe from a sugar3 api sense we shouold add an abstraction over whatever api we use to make it more indipendant of the system
21:31 tch__ samdroid, assuming we can find a proper replacement for what was dropped, yes
21:32 samdroid ok
21:32 tch__ samdroid, gonzalo__ walterbender   moving on... have you tried sugar on fedora 22+?
21:32 samdroid looks nice on fedora 24(?) rawhide
21:33 but treeviews zebra stripes have regressed :P
21:33 tch__ samdroid, thanks to you and gonzalo__ ;)
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21:33 tch__ samdroid, I have noticed most of the changes are related to artwork gtk themes
21:33 and not so much to the actual code aPI
21:33 s/aPI/API
21:34 gonzalo__ tch__, yeah
21:35 tch__ samdroid, gonzalo__ I believe that is a good thing.. being optimistic, I would say gtk API its pretty stable recently,
21:35 luckily for us, because we haven't really done much about that,
21:36 I think samdroid made some adjustments recently, and the other issue I can recall was solved with the custom bindings for clipboard
21:36 in SugarExt
21:36 samdroid that's a nice hack
21:37 tch__ glorious 20 lines of C code... but I haven't checked that on f22+
21:37 i know its works on f18-20
21:37 samdroid I don't think it's broken
21:37 I was testing dranging jobjects to the cb
21:37 and that works (with cb patches)
21:38 tch__ samdroid, make sure to try with journal entries containing images, etc
21:38 samdroid tch__: quick collab question:  Aren't there 2 collab transports?  olpcmesh and telepathy?  or are they both telepathy?
21:39 tch__ samdroid, If there is a olpcmesh module/package, I don't know anything about it... the only mesh I know of the the physical network stuff
21:39 samdroid, which was dropped from xo1.5+
21:40 samdroid oh
21:40 ok
21:40 tch__ maybe walterbender has more info about that
21:41 so, we briefly mentioned webkit2, telepathy, gtk (which sounds pretty critical stuff to me), but is there anything else you guys want to mention?
21:41 ideally,
21:42 this talk is about what needs to be done, we then decide what can be done :)
21:42 samdroid getting rid of gtk menus looks like it could happen for 108
21:42 gonzalo__ tch__, we can talk about what we _want_ do, other that _need_ do
21:43 tch__ gonzalo__, well, ideally we should start by what needs to be done, and then see what can actually be done
21:43 gonzalo__ samdroid, yes, but we need maintain for compatibility (some activities use the menues).
21:44 samdroid gonzalo__: ya, and combo boxes
21:44 tch__ gonzalo__, in other words, we should at least mention these things
21:44 samdroid gonzalo__: but we can move them over
21:44 gonzalo__: and then we get less shell bugs :)  Hopefully :)
21:44 tch__ samdroid, have you experimented with that?
21:44 samdroid yep
21:44 tch__ samdroid, is a big change?
21:44 samdroid nap
21:44 gonzalo__ samdroid, yes, but i don't want break activities that didn't changed because we change the tolkit
21:45 samdroid gonzalo__: I wasn't suggesting we delete to old code
21:45 tch__: I've submitted a patch
21:45 gonzalo__ ok, just to be sure
21:45 samdroid http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]s/Replace_GtkMenu
21:45 tch__ samdroid, gonzalo__ , thats another thing we need to evaluate,
21:45 gonzalo__ tch__, the change is mostly on sugar, not in the toolkit
21:46 tch__, maybe we can add deprecation warnings in the toolkit only
21:46 tch__ gonzalo__, I see,
21:46 samdroid tch__: ...?
21:46 gonzalo__ tch__, sugar use the menu api on the journal and in the clipboard only
21:47 tch__ ok,
21:47 gonzalo__ tch__, then is doable replace that submenu by a modal window
21:47 tch__, and have a few advantages
21:47 samdroid search!
21:47 gonzalo__ * si more usable with touch
21:47 s/si/is/
21:48 * we have a few bugs in the menues interaction
21:48 samdroid gtkwindow palettes look more like proper palettes
21:48 gonzalo__ yes
21:48 samdroid proper gap rendering
21:48 (except when the window manager puts shadows all over the place)
21:49 tch__ something I was thinking about is how much of these things actually improve the user experience of user (not saying that improving maintainability and shell stability is a bad thing though)
21:49 but that takes us back to the feedback topic, which I think can't be solved in a developers team meeting
21:49 gonzalo__ tch__, i think we can detail the improvements in the feature page
21:50 samdroid, i would like work with you in this feature
21:50 samdroid ok
21:51 tch__ nice, something concrete :)
21:51 hehe,
21:51 gonzalo__ samdroid, would be, you would work, and i will review, test and criticize :)
21:51 haha
21:51 samdroid that's fine by me :)
21:51 tch__ moving on...
21:51 gonzalo__ samdroid, tch__, the other think would be land the journal patches
21:52 thing
21:52 samdroid #action gonzalo__ work with samdroid on the modals
21:52 gonzalo__ i think we need test deeply
21:52 samdroid #action look more into wk2 browse
21:52 +1
21:52 tch__ in the early meetings for 106 cycle, we said we were ok to keep time-base releases, 6 months cycles,
21:52 gonzalo__ maybe prepare testing rpms for german
21:53 tch__ samdroid, gonzalo__ walterbender are we still ok with that?
21:53 samdroid with the journal patches?
21:53 tch__: i suppose
21:53 tch__ well, I am, but is a good exercise to ask,
21:54 samdroid gonzalo__: +1 though, let's merge those journal patches early and then get them really tested
21:54 gonzalo__ tch__, i am ok with 6 months
21:54 tch__ samdroid, gonzalo__ walterbender , if its 6 months, then the next release would be in january 2016
21:54 gonzalo__ tch__, but we would think in call 0.108 Sugar 1 (or 3) and call it stable
21:55 tch__ gonzalo__, it could be, I think that is a decision charged with philosophical energies though he,
21:56 gonzalo__ yep,
21:56 tch__ gonzalo__, samdroid, walterbender regarding the time, think january is ok for the final release?
21:56 samdroid nice timing with the whole campaign around reelecting slobs :)
21:56 tch__ I was thinking about GCI, in case we participate it would be troublesome,
21:57 samdroid It always is :)
21:57 gonzalo__ tch__, when is GCI?
21:57 samdroid but we can hack more on activities during gci
21:57 tch__ gonzalo__, usually is Dec 1
21:57 gonzalo__ samdroid, +1
21:57 tch__ if 108 is released before or at the same of GCI, then it gives more flexibility,
21:58 thats the pro, the con is we have 1 month less :P
21:58 flexibility for the GCI topics
21:58 samdroid, I don't mind, working on activities is always good
21:58 samdroid tch__: will we have collab done for that release in that cycle?
21:59 tch__: 'cause fixing collab is kinda the big feature for this cycle
21:59 tch__ samdroid, we don't know yet, but if it is, that would be a popular topic for GCI
21:59 gonzalo__ tch__, if we want stability, we can add gci stuff at the end
21:59 can't
21:59 my fingers!
21:59 tch__ gonzalo__, yes, that why I am suggesting to release it before,
21:59 samdroid tch__: so maybe we should choose the times later when we have an idea of the collab stuff?
22:00 tch__ and by flexibility I meant that we usually ignore GCI stuff, because we are close to release
22:00 samdroid :_)
22:00 *:)
22:00 tch__ is something we can consult with our pillows ;)
22:00 gonzalo__ tch__, +1
22:00 samdroid count down to end meeting?
22:01 gonzalo__ i need go, any other issue?
22:01 tch__ I think we have mentioned the important topics,
22:01 3
22:01 samdroid 2
22:01 gonzalo__ 1
22:01 tch__ #endmeeting
22:01 meeting Meeting ended Mon Jul 20 22:01:36 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
22:01 gonzalo__ we can follow on the ml
22:01 meeting Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-20T21:02:59.html
22:01 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]15-07-20T21:02:59
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22:01 gonzalo__ bye!
22:01 tch__ I will paste the log in the email thread, thanks everyone for coming
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23:02 walterbender tch__, I got waylaid by babysitting duties
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23:46 satellit_e this is f23 cinnamon
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