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#sugar-meeting, 2015-03-02

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22:55 andresaguirre <andresaguirre!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
22:55 andresaguirre hi!!
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23:03 ignacio Hi
23:03 walterbender hi
23:03 anyone else here?
23:03 ClaudiaU, ?
23:03 andresaguirre hi!!
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23:04 garyservin hi!
23:04 walterbender hi andresaguirre garyservin
23:04 cyn <cyn!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
23:04 walterbender let's get started
23:04 #start-meeting
23:04 meeting Meeting started Mon Mar  2 23:04:27 2015 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
23:04 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
23:04 walterbender #topic Turtle Blocks JS
23:05 cyn, is that you Cynthia S.?
23:05 cyn yes
23:06 ignacio back in 2 or 3minutes
23:06 ups no,, back
23:06 cyn who is the user of turtle blocks
23:06 walterbender so far it is mostly just us
23:06 but Gerald Ardito has some kids use it over the weekend
23:07 cyn so is the intended user
23:07 walterbender cyn, the same as the normal turtle blocks, but since it is web based it is easier to access for more kids
23:07 cyn ok
23:07 walterbender before we were restricted to kids with access to Sugar or Linux
23:08 now it is any kid with a web browser or Android device
23:08 cyn it feels more sophisticated
23:08 walterbender maybe it would make sense to talk about high-level goals before jumping into details
23:08 cyn, how so?
23:08 cyn yes
23:09 walterbender cyn, have you been able to get it to work?
23:09 cyn yes
23:09 walterbender boxes ? :)
23:09 cyn haven't used them recently
23:10 walterbender cyn, we should meet this week to do a design review
23:10 cyn good
23:10 walterbender andresaguirre, why are you interested in the JS version?
23:10 same question to garyservin
23:10 andresaguirre I'm interested because here in Uruguay is a big deployment of tablets with android :(
23:11 so, we have to search new ways to use turtle
23:11 and Butiá
23:11 I have been playing with the new box concept
23:11 walterbender pragmatic reason
23:11 andresaguirre I think is more easy
23:12 walterbender andresaguirre, I think so too
23:12 garyservin with tincho we're planninng to use it with our new Robots
23:12 andresaguirre lot of users have problems with boxes
23:12 walterbender but by keeping the old box block, we can make arrays and dictionaries too
23:12 andresaguirre maybe this will help, I will test it with the butiá users :)
23:12 walterbender but those advanced concepts don't need to confuse the users
23:13 andresaguirre, that'd be great
23:13 andresaguirre, on Android, how important is it to be an APK vs run in the browser?
23:13 garyservin and it is easier to get tablets or machines with windows here
23:13 walterbender I ask because the APK is a bit less stable
23:13 garyservin, how important is IE support?
23:14 has never tested with IE, only Chrome, Safari, and Firefox
23:14 andresaguirre in butiá case, I think is important to have an apk that encanpsulate the plugins to use the robots....
23:14 garyservin I would say it is not too important
23:14 andresaguirre I'm thinking in a TurtleBotsJS ...
23:14 ignacio IE is horrible.. No body uses it.. to be honest, all users use IE for download another browser
23:14 walterbender andresaguirre, I can make a custom APK with the TurtleBots plugins preinstalled
23:14 ignacio andresaguirre, I think you can use TurtleBlocksJS, and just make plugins
23:15 walterbender ignacio, good to know
23:15 since I have no Windows machine, I have no way to test
23:15 ignacio can test
23:15 walterbender I think for deploying TurtleBots we will want to have custom APKs for each robot type
23:16 just my current thinking
23:16 anyway, these are things to think about
23:16 andresaguirre Is important to inculde different types of robots in one apk, because is the way for kids to mix different kits
23:16 garyservin I think apk is better, because people (and kids) are more used to the concept, otherwise people may think it needs internet to work
23:17 andresaguirre remember that here we have 5 types of robots
23:17 walterbender OK... one APK it is :)
23:17 andresaguirre lego nxt, lego wedo, ficherlt, fischer tx, butiá...
23:17 walterbender I either need to fix the bug with loading plugins from Android or just bundle the plugins into the APK
23:17 or both
23:17 ignacio about lego,
23:17 #link https://github.com/SAMdroid-apps/turtlestorm
23:17 andresaguirre +1 gary!
23:17 ignacio can be useful
23:18 walterbender the details I would like to sort out are more pedagogical in nature
23:18 andresaguirre some plugins are difficult to run on android
23:19 tch__ <tch__!~tch@host-1-217.b12.cvc.com.py> has joined #sugar-meeting
23:19 walterbender I want to make sure we have the right primitives to learn the powerful ideas of programming
23:19 and I want to make better tools for debugging, assessing progress, etc.
23:19 and collaborating/sharing results
23:20 the webserver that tch__ wrote works pretty well but may not scale as we get more users
23:20 tch__ walterbender, it wont,
23:20 walterbender SAMdroid wrote a nice interface to it, but we could connect it to a different backend
23:20 tch__, :P
23:21 so... in the short term, I would like to know what are the critical issues to get a first version out the door
23:21 and how will be allocate resources to accomplish that
23:22 and what are the important things to target with resources like Google Summer of Code
23:22 and general feedback from cyn about the learning
23:23 andresaguirre you could fix the bug with the cursor? somethimes when you drag a block the blocks moves near the point you touch
23:23 tch__ walterbender, I think the its pretty solid now, but we need to promote it better
23:23 andresaguirre and now the debugging is not working
23:23 One of the great powers of Turtle is the debuggin as a learning tool, as cyn says
23:24 tch__ pulling latest bits
23:24 walterbender andresaguirre: what is broken with debugging?
23:24 andresaguirre doesn't work now
23:24 trying now...
23:25 it works :) it was my fault
23:25 tch__ andresaguirre, its working here
23:26 walterbender is curious what aspect of debugging you were referring to?
23:27 tch__ walterbender, have you received any feedback from UI designers lately?
23:27 andresaguirre is working, my web browser freeze
23:28 walterbender tch__, no
23:28 just users
23:28 andresaguirre, try refreshing your browser
23:28 I just did a pull on the server
23:28 andresaguirre, I think I may have improved things regarding the dragging bug you mentioned
23:29 Claudia_ <Claudia_!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
23:29 Claudia_ walterbender:
23:29 hi walterbender! Sorry I am joining late
23:29 walterbender tch__, I have gotten rid of all of the race conditions, but there still seem to be some cases where things get out of sync
23:30 Claudia_, glad you could join us
23:30 Claudia_ traffic.. I just got home 5 min ago
23:30 tch__ walterbender, are we keeping track of these issues in github?
23:30 walterbender github or trac
23:30 I watch both
23:30 tch__ walterbender, https://github.com/walterbende[…]leblocksjs/issues
23:30 walterbender, ok
23:31 walterbender, I think would be good to have some designer eye feedback
23:31 walterbender tch__, agreed... just need to find some designers :P
23:31 andresaguirre I'm really impressed, it has improved a lot !
23:32 walterbender andresaguirre, I have gotten a lot of help
23:32 lately all I have focused on is bug fixes and UI improvements
23:33 no new features for the time being
23:33 tch__ walterbender, +1, it paid off,
23:33 walterbender here is a question: what about Sugar compatibility?
23:33 does it matter to any of you?
23:33 right now we don't use the Sugar toolbar
23:34 but we could
23:34 (it was a bit slower to load)
23:34 tch__ walterbender, I am sure about the toolbar, but a minimum of datastore integration can't hurt
23:34 walterbender or we could use it only when not on Android
23:34 tch__ s/sure/not sure/g
23:34 walterbender tch__, I am not sure how to do the datastore integration from JS
23:34 never looked at that code
23:35 but I think I should add back in the Sugar toolbar so that Lionel/Sugarizer can use it
23:35 ignacio +1
23:36 tch__ walterbender, would be good,
23:36 andresaguirre #agreed
23:36 walterbender any other major gotchas?
23:36 do we need to be compatible with the Python version?
23:36 right now it is close but not quite compatible
23:37 (start blocks are quite different)
23:37 Claudia_ I think it would be great if kids share their TA projects that they could open them... from Sugar to other platforms
23:37 no?
23:37 andresaguirre yes
23:37 walterbender Claudia_, they can share through the server
23:37 ignacio Right now, turtlejs load turtleart projects
23:37 Claudia_ walterbender: and they are compatible?
23:37 ignacio btw, I think we should make it reverse, I mean
23:37 walterbender andresaguirre, do you guys ever use multiple turtles?
23:37 ignacio Turtlejs <-> turtlebots
23:37 tch__ walterbender, could help as a migration strategy, from python to js version
23:37 ignacio *blocks
23:38 walterbender I can probably make it work
23:38 I will need to update a few things in the Python version
23:38 and think about adding some blocks I haven't ported yet
23:38 andresaguirre waltebender: we didn't use the multyple turtle feature
23:39 walterbender andresaguirre, OK... that will make it easier to support
23:39 because that is the one thing that is completely different in the JS version: how multiple turtles work
23:39 tch__ walterbender, Claudia_ , full compatibility will be affected by plugins too,
23:39 ignacio walterbender, is multiple turtles (for python version) a gsoc project?
23:40 andresaguirre but one of our  partners want to do it before the feature was implemented. To have robot cooperation
23:40 walterbender I don't think that is going to be perfect
23:40 ignacio, no... but it could be
23:40 andresaguirre, in Python we would do that through the Sugar collaboration mechanism
23:41 in JS we don't have collaboration working yet, but we can run multple robots from multiple turtles, presumably, on one machine
23:41 andresaguirre, but I would love to get collaboration working
23:41 tch__, and I have much of a simple model working
23:42 tch__, (remember the hack we did in Redwood City?)
23:42 Claudia_ walter... I have not play with it much..
23:42 but it is working beautifully
23:42 tch__ walterbender, yeah, https://github.com/tchx84/sugar-web-collaboration
23:42 walterbender, but we need to sync with lionel
23:43 walterbender I think collaboration is really powerful in Turtle, but I suspect in the Python version it is rarely used
23:43 tch__ walterbender, to see what hes using
23:43 walterbender tch__, yes, we should
23:43 Claudia_ how do you address the dif tutles?
23:43 tch__ walterbender, and agree on 1 thing
23:43 walterbender Claudia_, there is a plugin for that
23:43 Claudia_ ok
23:44 walterbender tch__, I do not want to have Sugarizer we a requirement for using collaboration... I think we will lose too many potential users that way
23:44 Claudia_, it is the "turtle" plugin, written by ignacio as I recall
23:45 tch__ walterbender, agreed
23:45 andresaguirre walterbender: yes I remember the program we made to use the acelerometer to control the robot... Is a nice feature to work .
23:46 ignacio There is a plugin for accelerometer too
23:46 walterbender and eventually more than one robot :)
23:47 Claudia_ I have a problem with the trash there
23:47 I keep loosing my blocks
23:47 andresaguirre the problem is that it works only with sugar.. and we use turtleblocks in many non sugar systems
23:48 having collaboration in turtleJS will be great
23:48 walterbender andresaguirre, that was my point earlier
23:48 Claudia_, :(
23:48 Claudia_, you can undelete them
23:49 but where should the trashcan be? maybe smaller?
23:49 ignacio oh, for that is the button in the toolbar?
23:49 Claudia_ can it be moved to the side?
23:49 I love the feature
23:49 walterbender Claudia_, there are menus on the sides :P
23:49 ignacio I think the blocks should be removed when they are dragged to the palettes
23:49 like in python version
23:50 walterbender ignacio, /me never liked that feature
23:50 ignacio also, to have a palette only with deleted blocks & "delete all" block or option
23:50 AlanJAS2 <AlanJAS2!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
23:50 Claudia_ the bottom of the right side
23:50 walterbender Claudia_, I suppose that could work since the right-side menu is pretty short now
23:50 ignacio well, that isnt a lot of needed, new users just see the thrash
23:51 walterbender ignacio, I do agree we should put the delete all button back
23:51 Claudia_ because I undeleted them and got back a bunch that I now have to delete one by one
23:51 tch__ walterbender, andresaguirre to have a platform independent collaboration stack it will require to re-implement some sugar ideas on turtlejs or to re-think it
23:51 Claudia_ yes to that
23:51 walterbender Claudia_, I guess we could restore one item at a time
23:52 ignacio walterbender, its a bit complicated to find the button..
23:52 Claudia_ or delete all
23:52 cause once I get back what I need, I can delete all the rest
23:52 walterbender ignacio, the delete all button?
23:52 ignacio walterbender, yeah..
23:53 walterbender Claudia_, delete all deletes all
23:53 Claudia_ ohhh
23:53 no
23:53 ignacio just the blocks
23:53 not the turtle position & canvas
23:53 as I recall
23:53 walterbender ignacio, you recall correctly
23:53 ignacio walterbender, when I click on the planet
23:53 walterbender but it deletes the start block too
23:53 ignacio ho w I can back to my current project?
23:53 I dont understand the planet
23:54 walterbender the current project is always the first one
23:54 ignacio but, how I can back?
23:54 when I click on the image
23:54 nothing happens
23:54 walterbender to get back you click on the left-hand icon
23:54 that is a bug we should fix
23:54 ignacio where?
23:55 walterbender there is a "pen" icon
23:55 ignacio ah..
23:55 walterbender that is what you should click
23:55 ignacio Probably a back button is more "easy" to use
23:55 walterbender that icon is not very obvious
23:55 ignacio, something like that, yes
23:56 AlanJAS2 the pen works.. but is more intuitive click on the image
23:56 ignacio I can work on that too, /me is working on music block
23:57 walterbender we can write up some of these issues after the meeting
23:58 cyn, you have been quiet
23:58 any initial feedback?
23:58 cyn i still find it a bit sophisticated
23:59 also some bugs
23:59 walterbender cyn, can you explain?
23:59 cyn but collaboration will be fantastic
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