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| 20:45 | barjavel.freenode.net | [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp |
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| 22:55 | andresaguirre | hi!! |
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| 23:03 | ignacio | Hi |
| 23:03 | walterbender | hi |
| 23:03 | anyone else here? | |
| 23:03 | ClaudiaU, ? | |
| 23:03 | andresaguirre | hi!! |
| 23:03 | CanoeBerry <CanoeBerry!~CanoeBerrc-98-216-39-142.hsd1.ma.comcast.net> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 23:04 | garyservin | hi! |
| 23:04 | walterbender | hi andresaguirre garyservin |
| 23:04 | cyn <cyn!~webchatrev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 23:04 | walterbender | let's get started |
| 23:04 | #start-meeting | |
| 23:04 | meeting | Meeting started Mon Mar 2 23:04:27 2015 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 23:04 | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting | |
| 23:04 | walterbender | #topic Turtle Blocks JS |
| 23:05 | cyn, is that you Cynthia S.? | |
| 23:05 | cyn | yes |
| 23:06 | ignacio | back in 2 or 3minutes |
| 23:06 | ups no,, back | |
| 23:06 | cyn | who is the user of turtle blocks |
| 23:06 | walterbender | so far it is mostly just us |
| 23:06 | but Gerald Ardito has some kids use it over the weekend | |
| 23:07 | cyn | so is the intended user |
| 23:07 | walterbender | cyn, the same as the normal turtle blocks, but since it is web based it is easier to access for more kids |
| 23:07 | cyn | ok |
| 23:07 | walterbender | before we were restricted to kids with access to Sugar or Linux |
| 23:08 | now it is any kid with a web browser or Android device | |
| 23:08 | cyn | it feels more sophisticated |
| 23:08 | walterbender | maybe it would make sense to talk about high-level goals before jumping into details |
| 23:08 | cyn, how so? | |
| 23:08 | cyn | yes |
| 23:09 | walterbender | cyn, have you been able to get it to work? |
| 23:09 | cyn | yes |
| 23:09 | walterbender | boxes ? :) |
| 23:09 | cyn | haven't used them recently |
| 23:10 | walterbender | cyn, we should meet this week to do a design review |
| 23:10 | cyn | good |
| 23:10 | walterbender | andresaguirre, why are you interested in the JS version? |
| 23:10 | same question to garyservin | |
| 23:10 | andresaguirre | I'm interested because here in Uruguay is a big deployment of tablets with android :( |
| 23:11 | so, we have to search new ways to use turtle | |
| 23:11 | and Butiá | |
| 23:11 | I have been playing with the new box concept | |
| 23:11 | walterbender | pragmatic reason |
| 23:11 | andresaguirre | I think is more easy |
| 23:12 | walterbender | andresaguirre, I think so too |
| 23:12 | garyservin | with tincho we're planninng to use it with our new Robots |
| 23:12 | andresaguirre | lot of users have problems with boxes |
| 23:12 | walterbender | but by keeping the old box block, we can make arrays and dictionaries too |
| 23:12 | andresaguirre | maybe this will help, I will test it with the butiá users :) |
| 23:12 | walterbender | but those advanced concepts don't need to confuse the users |
| 23:13 | andresaguirre, that'd be great | |
| 23:13 | andresaguirre, on Android, how important is it to be an APK vs run in the browser? | |
| 23:13 | garyservin | and it is easier to get tablets or machines with windows here |
| 23:13 | walterbender | I ask because the APK is a bit less stable |
| 23:13 | garyservin, how important is IE support? | |
| 23:14 | has never tested with IE, only Chrome, Safari, and Firefox | |
| 23:14 | andresaguirre | in butiá case, I think is important to have an apk that encanpsulate the plugins to use the robots.... |
| 23:14 | garyservin | I would say it is not too important |
| 23:14 | andresaguirre | I'm thinking in a TurtleBotsJS ... |
| 23:14 | ignacio | IE is horrible.. No body uses it.. to be honest, all users use IE for download another browser |
| 23:14 | walterbender | andresaguirre, I can make a custom APK with the TurtleBots plugins preinstalled |
| 23:14 | ignacio | andresaguirre, I think you can use TurtleBlocksJS, and just make plugins |
| 23:15 | walterbender | ignacio, good to know |
| 23:15 | since I have no Windows machine, I have no way to test | |
| 23:15 | ignacio | can test |
| 23:15 | walterbender | I think for deploying TurtleBots we will want to have custom APKs for each robot type |
| 23:16 | just my current thinking | |
| 23:16 | anyway, these are things to think about | |
| 23:16 | andresaguirre | Is important to inculde different types of robots in one apk, because is the way for kids to mix different kits |
| 23:16 | garyservin | I think apk is better, because people (and kids) are more used to the concept, otherwise people may think it needs internet to work |
| 23:17 | andresaguirre | remember that here we have 5 types of robots |
| 23:17 | walterbender | OK... one APK it is :) |
| 23:17 | andresaguirre | lego nxt, lego wedo, ficherlt, fischer tx, butiá... |
| 23:17 | walterbender | I either need to fix the bug with loading plugins from Android or just bundle the plugins into the APK |
| 23:17 | or both | |
| 23:17 | ignacio | about lego, |
| 23:17 | #link https://github.com/SAMdroid-apps/turtlestorm | |
| 23:17 | andresaguirre | +1 gary! |
| 23:17 | ignacio | can be useful |
| 23:18 | walterbender | the details I would like to sort out are more pedagogical in nature |
| 23:18 | andresaguirre | some plugins are difficult to run on android |
| 23:19 | tch__ <tch__!~tchhost-1-217.b12.cvc.com.py> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 23:19 | walterbender | I want to make sure we have the right primitives to learn the powerful ideas of programming |
| 23:19 | and I want to make better tools for debugging, assessing progress, etc. | |
| 23:19 | and collaborating/sharing results | |
| 23:20 | the webserver that tch__ wrote works pretty well but may not scale as we get more users | |
| 23:20 | tch__ | walterbender, it wont, |
| 23:20 | walterbender | SAMdroid wrote a nice interface to it, but we could connect it to a different backend |
| 23:20 | tch__, :P | |
| 23:21 | so... in the short term, I would like to know what are the critical issues to get a first version out the door | |
| 23:21 | and how will be allocate resources to accomplish that | |
| 23:22 | and what are the important things to target with resources like Google Summer of Code | |
| 23:22 | and general feedback from cyn about the learning | |
| 23:23 | andresaguirre | you could fix the bug with the cursor? somethimes when you drag a block the blocks moves near the point you touch |
| 23:23 | tch__ | walterbender, I think the its pretty solid now, but we need to promote it better |
| 23:23 | andresaguirre | and now the debugging is not working |
| 23:23 | One of the great powers of Turtle is the debuggin as a learning tool, as cyn says | |
| 23:24 | tch__ | pulling latest bits |
| 23:24 | walterbender | andresaguirre: what is broken with debugging? |
| 23:24 | andresaguirre | doesn't work now |
| 23:24 | trying now... | |
| 23:25 | it works :) it was my fault | |
| 23:25 | tch__ | andresaguirre, its working here |
| 23:26 | walterbender | is curious what aspect of debugging you were referring to? |
| 23:27 | tch__ | walterbender, have you received any feedback from UI designers lately? |
| 23:27 | andresaguirre | is working, my web browser freeze |
| 23:28 | walterbender | tch__, no |
| 23:28 | just users | |
| 23:28 | andresaguirre, try refreshing your browser | |
| 23:28 | I just did a pull on the server | |
| 23:28 | andresaguirre, I think I may have improved things regarding the dragging bug you mentioned | |
| 23:29 | Claudia_ <Claudia_!~webchatrev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 23:29 | Claudia_ | walterbender: |
| 23:29 | hi walterbender! Sorry I am joining late | |
| 23:29 | walterbender | tch__, I have gotten rid of all of the race conditions, but there still seem to be some cases where things get out of sync |
| 23:30 | Claudia_, glad you could join us | |
| 23:30 | Claudia_ | traffic.. I just got home 5 min ago |
| 23:30 | tch__ | walterbender, are we keeping track of these issues in github? |
| 23:30 | walterbender | github or trac |
| 23:30 | I watch both | |
| 23:30 | tch__ | walterbender, https://github.com/walterbende[…]leblocksjs/issues |
| 23:30 | walterbender, ok | |
| 23:31 | walterbender, I think would be good to have some designer eye feedback | |
| 23:31 | walterbender | tch__, agreed... just need to find some designers :P |
| 23:31 | andresaguirre | I'm really impressed, it has improved a lot ! |
| 23:32 | walterbender | andresaguirre, I have gotten a lot of help |
| 23:32 | lately all I have focused on is bug fixes and UI improvements | |
| 23:33 | no new features for the time being | |
| 23:33 | tch__ | walterbender, +1, it paid off, |
| 23:33 | walterbender | here is a question: what about Sugar compatibility? |
| 23:33 | does it matter to any of you? | |
| 23:33 | right now we don't use the Sugar toolbar | |
| 23:34 | but we could | |
| 23:34 | (it was a bit slower to load) | |
| 23:34 | tch__ | walterbender, I am sure about the toolbar, but a minimum of datastore integration can't hurt |
| 23:34 | walterbender | or we could use it only when not on Android |
| 23:34 | tch__ | s/sure/not sure/g |
| 23:34 | walterbender | tch__, I am not sure how to do the datastore integration from JS |
| 23:34 | never looked at that code | |
| 23:35 | but I think I should add back in the Sugar toolbar so that Lionel/Sugarizer can use it | |
| 23:35 | ignacio | +1 |
| 23:36 | tch__ | walterbender, would be good, |
| 23:36 | andresaguirre | #agreed |
| 23:36 | walterbender | any other major gotchas? |
| 23:36 | do we need to be compatible with the Python version? | |
| 23:36 | right now it is close but not quite compatible | |
| 23:37 | (start blocks are quite different) | |
| 23:37 | Claudia_ | I think it would be great if kids share their TA projects that they could open them... from Sugar to other platforms |
| 23:37 | no? | |
| 23:37 | andresaguirre | yes |
| 23:37 | walterbender | Claudia_, they can share through the server |
| 23:37 | ignacio | Right now, turtlejs load turtleart projects |
| 23:37 | Claudia_ | walterbender: and they are compatible? |
| 23:37 | ignacio | btw, I think we should make it reverse, I mean |
| 23:37 | walterbender | andresaguirre, do you guys ever use multiple turtles? |
| 23:37 | ignacio | Turtlejs <-> turtlebots |
| 23:37 | tch__ | walterbender, could help as a migration strategy, from python to js version |
| 23:37 | ignacio | *blocks |
| 23:38 | walterbender | I can probably make it work |
| 23:38 | I will need to update a few things in the Python version | |
| 23:38 | and think about adding some blocks I haven't ported yet | |
| 23:38 | andresaguirre | waltebender: we didn't use the multyple turtle feature |
| 23:39 | walterbender | andresaguirre, OK... that will make it easier to support |
| 23:39 | because that is the one thing that is completely different in the JS version: how multiple turtles work | |
| 23:39 | tch__ | walterbender, Claudia_ , full compatibility will be affected by plugins too, |
| 23:39 | ignacio | walterbender, is multiple turtles (for python version) a gsoc project? |
| 23:40 | andresaguirre | but one of our partners want to do it before the feature was implemented. To have robot cooperation |
| 23:40 | walterbender | I don't think that is going to be perfect |
| 23:40 | ignacio, no... but it could be | |
| 23:40 | andresaguirre, in Python we would do that through the Sugar collaboration mechanism | |
| 23:41 | in JS we don't have collaboration working yet, but we can run multple robots from multiple turtles, presumably, on one machine | |
| 23:41 | andresaguirre, but I would love to get collaboration working | |
| 23:41 | tch__, and I have much of a simple model working | |
| 23:42 | tch__, (remember the hack we did in Redwood City?) | |
| 23:42 | Claudia_ | walter... I have not play with it much.. |
| 23:42 | but it is working beautifully | |
| 23:42 | tch__ | walterbender, yeah, https://github.com/tchx84/sugar-web-collaboration |
| 23:42 | walterbender, but we need to sync with lionel | |
| 23:43 | walterbender | I think collaboration is really powerful in Turtle, but I suspect in the Python version it is rarely used |
| 23:43 | tch__ | walterbender, to see what hes using |
| 23:43 | walterbender | tch__, yes, we should |
| 23:43 | Claudia_ | how do you address the dif tutles? |
| 23:43 | tch__ | walterbender, and agree on 1 thing |
| 23:43 | walterbender | Claudia_, there is a plugin for that |
| 23:43 | Claudia_ | ok |
| 23:44 | walterbender | tch__, I do not want to have Sugarizer we a requirement for using collaboration... I think we will lose too many potential users that way |
| 23:44 | Claudia_, it is the "turtle" plugin, written by ignacio as I recall | |
| 23:45 | tch__ | walterbender, agreed |
| 23:45 | andresaguirre | walterbender: yes I remember the program we made to use the acelerometer to control the robot... Is a nice feature to work . |
| 23:46 | ignacio | There is a plugin for accelerometer too |
| 23:46 | walterbender | and eventually more than one robot :) |
| 23:47 | Claudia_ | I have a problem with the trash there |
| 23:47 | I keep loosing my blocks | |
| 23:47 | andresaguirre | the problem is that it works only with sugar.. and we use turtleblocks in many non sugar systems |
| 23:48 | having collaboration in turtleJS will be great | |
| 23:48 | walterbender | andresaguirre, that was my point earlier |
| 23:48 | Claudia_, :( | |
| 23:48 | Claudia_, you can undelete them | |
| 23:49 | but where should the trashcan be? maybe smaller? | |
| 23:49 | ignacio | oh, for that is the button in the toolbar? |
| 23:49 | Claudia_ | can it be moved to the side? |
| 23:49 | I love the feature | |
| 23:49 | walterbender | Claudia_, there are menus on the sides :P |
| 23:49 | ignacio | I think the blocks should be removed when they are dragged to the palettes |
| 23:49 | like in python version | |
| 23:50 | walterbender | ignacio, /me never liked that feature |
| 23:50 | ignacio | also, to have a palette only with deleted blocks & "delete all" block or option |
| 23:50 | AlanJAS2 <AlanJAS2!~webchatrev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 23:50 | Claudia_ | the bottom of the right side |
| 23:50 | walterbender | Claudia_, I suppose that could work since the right-side menu is pretty short now |
| 23:50 | ignacio | well, that isnt a lot of needed, new users just see the thrash |
| 23:51 | walterbender | ignacio, I do agree we should put the delete all button back |
| 23:51 | Claudia_ | because I undeleted them and got back a bunch that I now have to delete one by one |
| 23:51 | tch__ | walterbender, andresaguirre to have a platform independent collaboration stack it will require to re-implement some sugar ideas on turtlejs or to re-think it |
| 23:51 | Claudia_ | yes to that |
| 23:51 | walterbender | Claudia_, I guess we could restore one item at a time |
| 23:52 | ignacio | walterbender, its a bit complicated to find the button.. |
| 23:52 | Claudia_ | or delete all |
| 23:52 | cause once I get back what I need, I can delete all the rest | |
| 23:52 | walterbender | ignacio, the delete all button? |
| 23:52 | ignacio | walterbender, yeah.. |
| 23:53 | walterbender | Claudia_, delete all deletes all |
| 23:53 | Claudia_ | ohhh |
| 23:53 | no | |
| 23:53 | ignacio | just the blocks |
| 23:53 | not the turtle position & canvas | |
| 23:53 | as I recall | |
| 23:53 | walterbender | ignacio, you recall correctly |
| 23:53 | ignacio | walterbender, when I click on the planet |
| 23:53 | walterbender | but it deletes the start block too |
| 23:53 | ignacio | ho w I can back to my current project? |
| 23:53 | I dont understand the planet | |
| 23:54 | walterbender | the current project is always the first one |
| 23:54 | ignacio | but, how I can back? |
| 23:54 | when I click on the image | |
| 23:54 | nothing happens | |
| 23:54 | walterbender | to get back you click on the left-hand icon |
| 23:54 | that is a bug we should fix | |
| 23:54 | ignacio | where? |
| 23:55 | walterbender | there is a "pen" icon |
| 23:55 | ignacio | ah.. |
| 23:55 | walterbender | that is what you should click |
| 23:55 | ignacio | Probably a back button is more "easy" to use |
| 23:55 | walterbender | that icon is not very obvious |
| 23:55 | ignacio, something like that, yes | |
| 23:56 | AlanJAS2 | the pen works.. but is more intuitive click on the image |
| 23:56 | ignacio | I can work on that too, /me is working on music block |
| 23:57 | walterbender | we can write up some of these issues after the meeting |
| 23:58 | cyn, you have been quiet | |
| 23:58 | any initial feedback? | |
| 23:58 | cyn | i still find it a bit sophisticated |
| 23:59 | also some bugs | |
| 23:59 | walterbender | cyn, can you explain? |
| 23:59 | cyn | but collaboration will be fantastic |
| 23:59 | gonzalo_ <gonzalo_!~gonzalo190.173.56.77> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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