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#sugar-meeting, 2013-06-03

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17:12 gonzalo_odiard ok
17:12 hello! :)
17:12 callkalpa hello
17:12 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, ready to start?
17:13 callkalpa yes
17:13 gonzalo_odiard perfect
17:13 then, our topic is improve help in sugar
17:13 callkalpa yes of course
17:14 the proposal is to implement using Mallard
17:14 gonzalo_odiard i think we can discuss it here, and later send our conclusions to sugar-devel and the gsoc group, to put all in the loop
17:15 callkalpa sure
17:15 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, ok, what are the advantages of using mallard?
17:17 callkalpa well, it can be used as a offline help and it supports inline links and is well known as a help display system as it is been used in projects such as GNOME as well
17:18 gonzalo_odiard i am concerned about your comment: " Due to the facts that it is a bit complicated (especially when compared with MarkDown) and there is no wysiwyg editor being developed that is fully functional."
17:19 callkalpa well, yes the syntax is a bit complicated when compared with MarkDown and I think that the developers will be reluctant to write their help in Mallard
17:20 as I have stated in the mailing list as well, the wysiwyg editor that is their is not completed
17:20 gonzalo_odiard our main problem is find editors to write the help. this is very important
17:21 callkalpa yes of course, the idea is to ask the developers themselves to write the help in MarkDown (which has a easy to catch syntax) and convert the MarkDown to Mallard
17:22 gonzalo_odiard did you see https://git.sugarlabs.org/help[…]-content/mainline ?
17:23 callkalpa loading...
17:24 saw it first time of course
17:25 yes we have to have someone/team to modify the existing help content to suit the new system
17:26 But for new activities, it would be better to ask developers to write the help themselves as I have stated before, what do you think?
17:26 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, we can ask, but we need a plan to improve what we have today
17:27 i think we have two ways to improve what we have:
17:28 * collect content already existing, improve it and translate to a format we can use for i18n, put on git, etc
17:28 * implement a mechanism to display the generated help
17:29 do you agree?
17:29 callkalpa, ^?
17:29 callkalpa my idea was to have the MarkDown to Mallard conversion script in sugar base
17:30 and it will convert the help source file to Mallard and display
17:30 yeah I agree with you
17:30 aguz <aguz!~androirc@r179-31-162-254.dialup.mobile.ancel.net.uy> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:30 aguz Hi everybody...
17:31 gonzalo_odiard hi aguz
17:32 aguz gonzalo_odiard: I will upload all as soon as possible
17:32 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, should this Malllard content be used in the Help activity?
17:32 aguz, ok :)
17:33 callkalpa The idea is to have help for each activity, isn't it
17:33 but of course we have to have help activity there since we don't have activities for some components
17:34 such as battery, about etc
17:34 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, another motive to have the help activity is, until we don't modify every activity, the help will not be available
17:35 callkalpa yeah of course
17:35 btw, were the rst files written for help activity, written by each activity developer or by yourself?
17:35 or by contributors other than the activity developer?
17:36 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, no, were written by volunteers
17:36 no by developers
17:36 callkalpa ok
17:37 gonzalo_odiard i am thinking in how get this work available for users as soon as possible
17:38 callkalpa I will first look at how to convert the source help file to Mallard, implement a frame to display the mallard content in each activity
17:38 gonzalo_odiard if your work need modification to sugar, probably will be ready for next release after sugar-100, does means at least one year to release, and more to be in users hands
17:38 callkalpa we will do it for a sample file, and do the same for the other making necessary improvements
17:40 yes we need to have a mechanism to display Mallard content, and I think that it should be build into sugar core
17:40 gonzalo_odiard ok, but we need one activity available to display the content to, then we can use this work earlier
17:40 ok, but we need one activity available to display the content too, then we can use this work earlier
17:41 callkalpa yeah that way it is possible
17:41 gonzalo_odiard also, i think you should dedicate part of your work to improve the help content we have right now
17:42 callkalpa yeah that should be part of the project, I agree
17:44 gonzalo_odiard this information can be useful for you http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Help[…]vity_refresh/0.98
17:44 callkalpa thanks gonzalo_odiard
17:45 gonzalo_odiard I don't have a strong preference for rst over other MarkDown, but if you decide change it, you should provide a patch with the changes needed for the help activity, and a mechanism to generate the html content
17:46 to many mardown formats... spurious format creation should be punished by law :/
17:47 callkalpa yeah I was wondering about the same, why we should not stay with rst. Shall we keep rst, the one defined in the Help activity. What do you think?
17:47 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, yes, may be is the same do a script to translate from rst to mallard
17:48 callkalpa Because in an activity help the content would be mostly text and images, aren't they
17:48 gonzalo_odiard what i don't  get yet, is the need of mallard
17:48 dnarvaez there is some tool to do that
17:48 but I wasn't impressed by the result
17:48 oh rst -> mallard sorry
17:48 I read rst -> markdown
17:49 gonzalo_odiard i am pretty sure, mallard is a intermediate step to generate html
17:49 dnarvaez votes for markdown anyway :) It's nicer and we are writing dev docs in markdown
17:49 callkalpa Mallard as first was walter's idea, since it is a topic based help mechanism and it is easier for the users to search for what they are looking for
17:50 We already have one in favor of MarkDown :-)
17:50 gonzalo_odiard dnarvaez, no problem, sent a patch with the translation from rst to MarkDown
17:50 dnarvaez nah, I just vote :P
17:50 gonzalo_odiard :)
17:51 callkalpa since there are tools to rst->markdown that won't be a big issue to have markdown as our base for the source
17:51 people who are much familiar with rst can write in rst and convert them to markdown
17:51 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, well, that depend on what help do you have available
17:52 dnarvaez callkalpa: not sure you can use the tools
17:52 callkalpa: at least for the doc I tried with, I preferred to redo it manually
17:53 callkalpa: maybe there are better tools than the one I tried though :)
17:53 callkalpa I will look for
17:53 gonzalo_odiard well are not so different
17:53 callkalpa yes
17:55 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, ok, let see if we can summarize what we have until now:
17:55 callkalpa I will look for tools to rst->MarkDown, if there are we will go with rst, else for the time being we will go with MarkDown as the source file syntax
17:56 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, i think, if you found tools to convert rst to markdown, you can convert help activity to use markdown
17:56 we don't want have help in two different formats
17:56 right?
17:57 callkalpa yes, the task will be easy and can be automated if there are tools
17:57 gonzalo_odiard if there are not tools, what is your plan?
17:58 callkalpa do it manually :-)
17:58 gonzalo_odiard use rst?
17:58 ah, ok :)
17:58 then, we have:
17:59 1) the base content is available here  https://git.sugarlabs.org/help[…]-content/mainline
17:59 2) useful information about how generate html for help activity here  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Help[…]vity_refresh/0.98
18:00 3) Maybe MarkDown is better, callkalpa will reserch ways to translate rst to MarkDown
18:00 callkalpa ok. we will do it that way then
18:01 gonzalo_odiard 4) callkalpa will research how to display/search Mallard and how to translate MarkDown to Mallard
18:01 5) Part of the project will be improve help content
18:01 callkalpa of course
18:02 gonzalo_odiard 6) the final piece is mechanism to integrate the help in the activities
18:02 do you agree?
18:02 callkalpa and localization support as well
18:03 yes that makes a complete cummary
18:03 *summary
18:04 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, yes i18n is important, our actual tool to generate the html content support it
18:04 callkalpa got it
18:05 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, i think you should look at the formats and tools in a pragmatic way, i discussed this issue with the gnome guys and they were not too religious about the use of mallard
18:06 i am searching the mail thread to forward to you
18:07 callkalpa I will, that would be great if you can find it and forward it
18:07 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, forwarded :)
18:08 callkalpa gonzalo_odiard, thanks
18:10 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, Shaun McCance say "For somebody that created a help format and wrote at least partial
18:10 implementations of a handful of others, I am actually not all that
18:10 religious about formats. There are benefits to semantic XML formats
18:10 like Mallard, DocBook, and DITA. There are benefits to lightweight
18:10 markup syntaxes. There are times when writing HTML by hand really
18:10 is the right answer. You have to define your needs and then figure
18:10 out what's going to best help you solve them."
18:10 i completely agree with that
18:12 callkalpa Me too. But I think is it better to have a common mechanism and a common format (as far as possible) for help in each activity.
18:12 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, yes, of course
18:12 callkalpa I will look into more like Mallard
18:12 gonzalo_odiard i am talking about how to select this common format
18:13 callkalpa yes I got you
18:14 gonzalo_odiard ok, anything else for today?
18:14 callkalpa nope, I guess
18:15 shall I post my studies about the systems to sugar-devel?
18:15 Or writing a blog post is also possible
18:15 but I need a way to get feedback as well
18:16 or shall I keep posting to sugar-gsoc@googlegroups.com
18:17 gonzalo_odiard yeah, sugar-devel, gsoc & blog post :)
18:17 is copy paste anyway :)
18:17 i think one weekly report is ok
18:18 callkalpa won't it be annoying to read the same in sugar-devel and gsoc as well ? :-)
18:18 gonzalo_odiard at least is the way we work, and is useful
18:18 no problem
18:18 and i am in #sugar usually, and reply mails in the day
18:19 callkalpa Ok then I will post a weekly report
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18:21 callkalpa I think we are happy to wind up, gonzalo_odiard ?
18:21 gonzalo_odiard callkalpa, only if you are happy :)
18:21 callkalpa yes I am, that was a productive meeting for me :-)
18:24 gonzalo_odiard great
18:24 callkalpa :-)
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