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#sugar-meeting, 2013-04-22

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14:04 erikos #startmeeting
14:04 meeting Meeting started Mon Apr 22 14:04:27 2013 UTC. The chair is erikos. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:04 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:04 erikos #topic HTML activities
14:05 Rogelio <Rogelio!~Rogelio@181.164.180.125> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:05 erikos #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]April/042558.html
14:05 dnarvaez: I opened the meeting logging for you
14:06 dnarvaez erikos: thanks :)
14:06 hi everyone
14:06 erikos is here
14:06 llaske hi Daniel, hi all
14:06 bururez hi all
14:06 IgnacioUy Hi :)
14:06 garycmartin is here
14:06 daroal Hi!
14:06 Rogelio hi!
14:06 pflores_ hi guys!
14:06 dnarvaez lots of people, cool :)
14:07 erikos manuq: was around as well...
14:07 manuq yes I'm here
14:07 SeanDaly here...
14:07 gonzalo_odiard hello all!
14:07 dnarvaez the idea was to discuss the three possibilities outlined in that email
14:08 though we had already quite a bit of discussion about it on the mailing list
14:08 is there anything people here would like to add (or ask) about those?
14:08 IgnacioUy dnarvaez: I'm new.. ¿Html 5?
14:08 quidam hi
14:09 gonzalo_odiard IgnacioUy, please read the mails in sugar-devel ;)
14:09 IgnacioUy gonzalo_odiard: ok thx.
14:09 llaske Just to mention that there is lot of JavaScript frameworks mentioned in the lists and I'm afraid we don't have time/interest to test/compare all
14:10 erikos llaske: it could be someones task to just do it and gives a summary to the list
14:10 dnarvaez llaske: I agree but I'm not sure how to choose one :P
14:10 they are so many that evaluating all woudl take more than implementign with one prrolly :)
14:11 llaske I'm not sure we need to choose one !
14:11 dnarvaez llaske: you mean choose to *not* use one or?
14:11 Rogelio IgnacioUy: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]April/042558.html
14:11 llaske Yes, that's the point. It's better to avoid using any framework. Most are just syntactic "Sugar"
14:11 gonzalo_odiard just if we gain a lot by example implementing the graphics part
14:12 dnarvaez llaske: yup, that's certainly one of the possible paths
14:12 IgnacioUy Rogelio: I just read it.
14:12 manuq I have started a research for components at https://github.com/manuq/components-test
14:12 dnarvaez manuq are you getting an opinion about that with your research?
14:12 gonzalo_odiard but by example use jquery is prety safe, and solve a lot of issues
14:13 llaske Of course, jQuery is the most popular one
14:14 erikos #link https://github.com/manuq/components-test research on components
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14:15 manuq llaske: at list for the toolkit, you want to have a way to build and organize the different bits of html, css and js in a reusable way
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14:16 dnarvaez volojs would probably suffice for that
14:16 llaske the toolkit should be a blackbox for the user so, building and organize is just an internal problem
14:16 quidam manuq: reusable is a key for this, and it is not about saving time, but to get some uniformity
14:16 manuq quidam: yes, both
14:16 dnarvaez llaske: mmm you do need to expose an "interface" to the user to pull components together
14:17 erikos manuq: quick check: in angular the timer does not work yet, right?
14:17 manuq erikos: yeah, is unfinished
14:17 angular is too different
14:17 erikos cool, great work so far
14:18 llaske the "interface" could be just some JavaScript function and objects.
14:18 manuq dnarvaez: yes, volojs as you did in agora would suffice the components architecture
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14:19 dnarvaez llaske: I'm talking more of the components part. It could either be a command line tool like volo, or well, instructions to download a .js somewhere etc
14:19 erikos dnarvaez: volojs as in organize packaging the activity, right?
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14:20 dnarvaez erikos: yeah. Basically you create a template with something like "volo create sugar-activity-template helloworld" and then add/update components with "volo add my-cool-js-library"
14:20 I think it would make things easier to bootstrap and ensure some consistency (updating the libraries will be easier than manuallu)
14:21 llaske okay, creating an empty activity will not be very complex. We could do that just with copy/paste another activity
14:21 dnarvaez it also makes it easier to pull in stuff like jquery if you want to use it
14:21 manuq dnarvaez: very similar to Tj's components https://github.com/component/component
14:21 erikos dnarvaez: yeah, and it is what Firefox OS is using as well, iirc
14:22 dnarvaez llaske: surely it could be done by cut/paste too
14:22 though you could do that even if we supported volojs
14:22 llaske copy/paste is my favorite tool: no pre-requisite need :-)
14:22 manuq there are other alternatives to volo as we said in the mailing list, but let's not go too deep with that, all do basically the same stuff
14:22 dnarvaez it's not a strong dep
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14:23 gonzalo_odiard i think we need separate the use case of components as modularization, and the widgets implementation
14:23 dnarvaez manuq: yup, I guess it's more having something like volo or not, like llaske is suggesting
14:23 llaske gonzalo_odiard: +1
14:24 dnarvaez gonzalo_odiard: want to elaborate on that?
14:24 llaske complexity is more on widgets implementation than on modularization
14:25 gonzalo_odiard dnarvaez, modularization is more low level, and we can decide on volo or similar easily. the widgets frameworks are big, and there are a lot of options
14:25 dnarvaez I agree, we need to make a call about how to implement those widgets though
14:26 gonzalo_odiard and later of soon, some will death, we need check what support they have
14:26 dnarvaez gonzalo_odiard: yup, I agree
14:26 llaske About widgets: let's talk about Toolbar, it's the first step
14:26 walterbender the pieces are: toolbar, journal, collaboration... anything else?
14:27 llaske Do you imagine something like Gtk: create JavaScript object to each Toolbar Item or do you imagine new HTML tag for toolbar ?
14:27 gonzalo_odiard may be we can do a list of the issues we need to solve, modularization, ui widget, communication with backend, backend?
14:27 dnarvaez llaske: we was talking about that with manuq
14:27 llaske walterbender: copy/paste ? viewsource ?
14:27 walterbender notifications
14:28 dnarvaez llaske: I don't quite like that enyo is using js to create widgets
14:28 llaske: I'd rather define them in html and attach js code to them
14:28 gonzalo_odiard dnarvaez, yes, is a performance nightmare
14:29 manuq exactly, going for MVC is good for me too
14:29 gonzalo_odiard is easier and cleaner, but not good for performance
14:30 llaske okay, of course my preference is for pure JavaScript like Enyo (instead of HTML) but your argument make sense
14:30 dnarvaez it's going to be really hard to agree on this kind of things :)
14:31 perhaps it make sense for someone to do some more research and then propose a plan on the ml
14:31 manuq yes, I kind of started that, of course anyone can do its own and share thoughts
14:31 dnarvaez and manuq is apparently on it already :)
14:31 yup
14:31 gonzalo_odiard nice, manuq :)
14:32 dnarvaez taking a bit of a step back...
14:32 there seem to be some agreement that we should go with WebKit for now?
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14:33 llaske But with a new way to communicate with JavaScript (avoiding console-message)
14:33 walterbender there hasn't seemed to be consensus to move away from Webkit yet
14:33 gonzalo_odiard dnarvaez, i think now we should go for html + webkit + backend. the most importan issue is solve communication
14:33 dnarvaez do we need to support WebKit1?
14:33 erikos dnarvaez: solution (1) in the meeting announcement
14:34 dnarvaez erikos: yup
14:34 or better, do we need to support existing version of Sugar?
14:34 garycmartin gonzalo_odiard: +1
14:35 llaske dnarvaez: YES !!!!
14:35 dnarvaez sigh :(
14:35 walterbender dnarvaez: I am not sure
14:35 gonzalo_odiard dnarvaez, what are the limitations of webkit1 in this area?
14:35 dnarvaez gonzalo_odiard: as far as I can tell, there is no sane way to do client side communication in WebKit1
14:36 gonzalo_odiard: the only way I can think of is the websockets stuff we discussed
14:36 with WebKit2 it can be done sanely client side I think
14:36 gonzalo_odiard dnarvaez, i like the websockets idea too
14:36 llaske dnarvaez: no "safe" way but there is some hacky way to do that: the PhoneGap one or the console-message
14:36 dnarvaez so if we want to support WebKit1 is going to be more work
14:36 erikos llaske: you have deployment background, your answer is to expect here
14:36 manuq dnarvaez: I think we can use a WebKit2 webview, it doesn't matter if Browse activity uses WK1
14:37 dnarvaez llaske: nope you can't do phonegap on WebKit1 I think :(
14:37 llaske: it's only console-message afaict
14:37 manuq dnarvaez: WK1 and WK2 can live together, right?
14:37 llaske My deployment background said: any solution is good if it works for the user :-)
14:37 dnarvaez manuq: though it wouldnt work for old sugar right?
14:37 oh wait
14:38 I suppose at least fedora ships with webkit2
14:38 erikos quickly looks
14:39 dnarvaez but that would only be latest sugar
14:39 manuq yes at least in F19, I remember pbrobinson said webkit2 is in sugar on a stick
14:39 dnarvaez llaske: would you be content with that? :P
14:39 and does anyone else then llaske feel strongly that we should support old sugar? :)
14:39 gonzalo_odiard no webkit2 on fedora 18
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14:39 llaske Hmmm, I think that we should provide an intermediate version that works today.
14:40 About my own experience, Sugar 0.96 is just starting to be deployed !
14:40 erikos Gnome 3.8 switched to webkit2
14:40 llaske We can't wait 0.100 to provide a solution
14:40 erikos so yes, Fedora 19 is the first one that should ship both
14:41 walterbender llaske: actually, I think we'll see more Sugar 0.98 than Sugar 0.96 in the field, since XO 4.0 is shipping with 0.98
14:41 dnarvaez erikos: ok, so no webkit2 in 0.98
14:42 SeanDaly dnarvaez: by supporting old sugar you mean what, that existing Activities will run over HTML based Sugar?
14:42 llaske Walter: Yes but Sugar 0.98 (OLPC 13.1.0) has yet some issue on the XO 1, it's why we choose to deploy 0.96 instead (OLPC 12.1.0)
14:42 dnarvaez SeanDaly: that html activities will run on existing sugar versions
14:43 SeanDaly: (we don't have a plan about an html based sugar yet, we are still only discussing html activities on gtk sugar)
14:43 gonzalo_odiard anyway, i think we can define what is possible to do with sugar 0.96/8, may be no all is possible in a web act, but reading and writing the journal is a first stage
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14:43 llaske You should be inspired by guys from PhoneGap/Cordoba: the find the way to run HTML5 activities on ANY operating system and device !
14:44 We should be inspired...
14:44 dnarvaez I propose that we start from the 0.100 implementation, if people care about 0.98 it can be added one way or another (using console-message in the worst casee)
14:44 manuq +1
14:44 gonzalo_odiard llaske, is not inspiration, is implementation the problem :)
14:45 llaske dnarvaez: +1, we just need to isolate the Sugar interface part of the toolkit
14:45 gonzalo_odiard then, we need port Browse to webkit2?
14:45 dnarvaez llaske: yup
14:45 manuq no need to, imh
14:45 erikos dnarvaez: I am still not sure if webkit1 runs alongside webkit2
14:45 http://koji.fedoraproject.org/[…]o?packageID=10635
14:45 SeanDaly dnarvaez: oh ok clear... in that case i would say if HTML-based Activities unavailable for existing deployments, would be complicated to communicate
14:45 dnarvaez manuq: gonzalo_odiard yeah not necessarily, might not be hard though
14:46 walterbender SeanDaly: we already have that issue re GTK3 activities
14:46 gonzalo_odiard SeanDaly, in fact is a new development
14:46 walterbender SeanDaly: ASLO can help with making sure users don't download versions that they cannot run
14:46 dnarvaez I will take care of posting a communication proposal
14:46 or code :)
14:46 erikos dnarvaez: yes, 0.100 implementation should be the first goal
14:46 dnarvaez for 0.100 that is
14:46 SeanDaly walterbender: yes I had gathered...
14:46 erikos dnarvaez: I think backwards comp. is a soft goal here
14:47 and we should not block hard on it
14:47 dnarvaez erikos: yup agreed
14:47 walterbender yes... let's get it correct on 0.100
14:47 llaske I'm sure we could support both existing and future deployment with few cost
14:47 walterbender 0.100 is going to be so great... everyone will want to upgrade :)
14:47 dnarvaez hehe
14:48 erikos back in 5
14:48 dnarvaez so we have more or less a plan on the shell integration
14:48 walterbender now we need to go from ideas to code
14:48 dnarvaez we have manuq researching the toolkit
14:49 llaske target is 0.100 but we could support 0.96+ with some performance issue (console-message)
14:49 dnarvaez llaske: yup, I think that's fine
14:49 cjb hi all, just listening for now :)
14:49 dnarvaez is someone planning to look at datastore/presence?
14:49 it woudl really useful to have some kind of API proposal
14:50 hey cjb
14:50 cjb dnarvaez: have we picked an IPC mechanism?
14:50 llaske just to be sure: the question is not to reimplement it but map it to existing Sugar API ?
14:50 cjb datastore and presence probably come pretty quickly, but need to work out how they're going to be talked to
14:50 llaske: I don't think it's desirable to reuse an existing Sugar API for these
14:51 gonzalo_odiard we moved to webkit on sugar 0.96, then backward compatibility support will not be so far
14:51 dnarvaez cjb: there has been some discussion about it on the mailing list, but we didn't pick one yet
14:51 cjb because collaboration between pre-html5 (telepathy) and html5 won't work anyway
14:52 walterbender if we can build something robust in html5 we may want to migrate even the old apps to it
14:52 dnarvaez cjb: so you are saying we should implement new datasto
14:52 llaske cjb: okay for telepathy but not true for DataStore
14:52 dnarvaez cjb: datastore/collaboration for the html5 activities?
14:52 cjb dnarvaez: yeah
14:53 or at least, I'm saying that I don't think we should feel tied down by API compatibility
14:53 llaske I'm not sure it's a good idea to reimplement datastore/telepathy using HTML5 stuff
14:54 gonzalo_odiard we already decided go for the webkit route, then we will have a python activity running to do the bridge from python to javascript
14:54 llaske Break journal compatibility ? What about backup and XS ?
14:54 gonzalo_odiard: +1
14:54 cjb gonzalo_odiard: that doesn't sound like it would work on Android
14:54 I'm not saying Android ought to be the primary use case or anything
14:54 dnarvaez cjb: what I was thinking is to define a js API and somehow map it to the current services, but already thinking the implementation might be different in the future (or on other platforms)
14:54 gonzalo_odiard cjb, we will need implement another bridge
14:54 llaske cjb: Android is not the subject of this meeting :-)
14:55 cjb llaske: disagree
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14:55 manuq hi sdanielf!
14:55 cjb again, Android's not the primary platform, but it's on-topic to think about how the decisions we make would work for running HTML5 Sugar on other platforms
14:55 sdanielf hi manuq, all
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14:56 dnarvaez I agree that we should keep the Android use case in mind
14:56 cjb dnarvaez: sounds good
14:56 llaske cjb: like gonzalo said, it's just a new bridge
14:56 gonzalo_odiard cjb, anyway, we will not have the same apis on android for datastore or colaboration, right?
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14:56 cjb gonzalo_odiard: from the point of view of the HTML5 app?
14:56 gonzalo_odiard cjb, no, on the os
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14:57 dnarvaez llaske: well the API needs to be generic enough that you can bridge it to some other services on android
14:57 cjb agreed
14:57 gonzalo_odiard cjb, the html5 will talk with a bridge with the same api
14:57 dnarvaez llaske: if it's strictly tied to the current services, it might not implementable somehwere else
14:57 llaske dnarvaez: yes
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14:57 cjb yeah, I'm just saying that Python shouldn't be part of the HTML5 activity spec
14:57 one bridge of many is fine :)
14:57 gonzalo_odiard cjb, ok
14:58 llaske okay, we should write a generic API that work today on Python and tomorrow on Android
14:58 gonzalo_odiard +1
14:58 cjb +1
14:58 manuq feels agreement
14:59 llaske BTW, more easy to say that to do :-) need to have a good knowledge of today and tomorrow
14:59 dnarvaez going back to my initial question, anyone that would take care of writing a proposal for it? :)
14:59 llaske: yes, it's hard :)
14:59 we can iterate on it though
15:00 llaske Sorry I don't have a sufficient knowledge of Telepathy :-(
15:00 gonzalo_odiard dnarvaez, any other big question to solve?
15:00 dnarvaez llaske: want to take the ds one? :)
15:00 gonzalo_odiard may be we can separate the tasks to research
15:00 llaske Yes I can try do a proposal on it.
15:00 gonzalo_odiard ui widgets
15:00 manuq excellent
15:01 gonzalo_odiard webkit2 migration
15:01 dnarvaez nope I don't think I have other big questions in mind
15:01 llaske: great
15:01 manuq gonzalo_odiard: I think we are already on that
15:01 dnarvaez manuq will solve UI widgets :P
15:01 manuq maybe sdanielf can join me?
15:01 sdanielf sure
15:01 dnarvaez I will try to take a look to the collaboration stuff then, ipc is related really
15:02 manuq sdanielf: excellent, let's talk later
15:02 dnarvaez anyone have questions?
15:02 walterbender so we have at least the basics covered :)
15:02 dnarvaez something that would be great is to have people try to write html activities
15:03 gonzalo_odiard may be we can define a new meeting in two weeks?
15:03 sdanielf dnarvaez: What do you think about porting any simple activity?
15:04 dnarvaez sdanielf: sure that would be great
15:04 cjb in case anyone hasn't seen it, cscott's http://nell-colors.github.cscott.net/ may be helpful for reference
15:04 walterbender is writing a simple html activity too...
15:04 cjb (has a Sugar toolbar, does datastore using HTML5 localstorage)
15:04 llaske I've already wrote 3 HTML5 activities :-)
15:05 cjb https://github.com/cscott/nell-colors for the code
15:05 llaske I will adapt them to the new framework
15:05 dnarvaez gonzalo_odiard: I like ml discussion more because evryone can participate but a meeting will probably be necessary at some point
15:05 manuq cjb: yeah, I was looking at cscott's neil-colors
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15:06 llaske walterbender: really ?
15:06 walterbender llaske: I am trying in any case :P
15:06 dnarvaez walterbender: release early :)
15:06 walterbender dnarvaez: will do...
15:07 dnarvaez ok if no one has other questions I think we are done with this meeting
15:07 walterbender dnarvaez: thanks for organizing it
15:07 cjb dnarvaez: thanks!
15:07 llaske thanks to all
15:07 manuq yes, and thanks all for discussing
15:07 dnarvaez let's keep the threads on the mailing list going and if necessary let's have another meeting in a bit
15:07 thanks :)
15:08 daroal thank you all for such a focused meeting in such an extensive matter :-)
15:08 manuq dnarvaez: yes as gonzalo_odiard said, a meeting in two weeks with the homework done would be great
15:08 garycmartin Thanks all!
15:08 gonzalo_odiard dnarvaez, good work!
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15:26 erikos #endmeeting
15:26 meeting Meeting ended Mon Apr 22 15:26:15 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
15:26 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-22T14:04:27.html
15:26 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]13-04-22T14:04:27
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