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#sugar-meeting, 2013-03-31

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Time Nick Message
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16:43 walterbender hi rralcala
16:43 hi sdanielf
16:44 rralcala Hi walterbender
16:44 walterbender: Long time
16:44 walterbender rralcala: yes... I haven't been south in a while
16:44 Cerlyn <Cerlyn!~ALEIN@2602:306:35ea:4e20:6063:7114:e063:6a19> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:45 rralcala walterbender: I'm leaving in Tanzania right now, so me too :)
16:45 walterbender Tanzania... wow
16:46 rralcala living sorry
16:49 cjl hallo
16:50 walterbender hi cjl
16:53 rgs_ <rgs_!~rgs@serendipity.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:56 walterbender bernie: let me know when to start the meeting
16:57 rgs_ rralcala: hey
16:57 sdanielf hi walterbender, rgs_, bernie
16:58 walterbender sdanielf: I managed to step into the middle of a flame war on sur... oy
16:58 sdanielf rralcala, bienvenido
16:58 walterbender, :P
17:00 rralcala sdanielf: Gracias
17:00 walterbender bernie, shall we begin?
17:00 bernie walterbender: yep
17:00 walterbender #start-meeting
17:00 meeting Meeting started Sun Mar 31 17:00:54 2013 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
17:01 walterbender let's put together a  quick agenda
17:01 feel free to chime in
17:01 bernie should i send my items?
17:01 walterbender bernie: just post them here
17:02 bernie  - Self introduction (rralcala)
17:02  - Status update on SL infra (everyone)
17:02  - Paraguay Educa hosting requirements (rralcala)
17:02  - Trac maintenance (bernie)
17:02  - Pootle maintenance (bernie)
17:03 ah, and also:
17:03   - hosting code on GitHub (walter)
17:03 walterbender ok..
17:03 bernie anything else?
17:03 walterbender #topic Self introduction (rralcala)
17:04 bernie GA, rralcala
17:04 rralcala bernie: Ok, I'm not good at this but
17:04 walterbender @ bernie: we can add more topics at the end
17:04 rralcala Hi everyone, I'm rralcala, aka Roberto Rodriguez
17:04 cjl hola
17:05 rralcala I worked for a year in the Caacupe (Paraguay) implementation of olpc
17:05 but mostly on the infrastructure side
17:06 also I've some background maintaining infrastructure from other jobs
17:06 And, I'd like to give a hand/request some help if possible
17:07 how long should this be?
17:07 Also
17:08 walterbender rralcala: I think we get the idea :) but tell us about Tanzania...
17:08 rralcala Tanzania is an awesome place
17:08 really
17:08 but we don't get more than 1mbps at home
17:08 The digital breach here is huge
17:08 mostly because education
17:09 so in that perspective it might be a huge challenge doing something like paraguayeduca here
17:09 But I'm working on a telecom company
17:09 Recommended for safari and nice beaches
17:09 walterbender rralcala: will bandwidth be an issue for you re helping with infrastructure?
17:10 rralcala I'm moving to South africa
17:10 and have 3 backup connections
17:10 but yes
17:10 bernie rralcala: what are you going to do in tanzania?
17:10 ah sorry, i missed that line
17:11 rralcala I once had none of the 3 connections working because an fishers boat anchor ran over the backbone in egypt
17:11 bernie rralcala: how much free time can you realistically dedicate to volunteer activities for SL and PyEdu?
17:12 rralcala but I'm 99% available
17:12 tch___ <tch___!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:12 rralcala bernie: Ok
17:12 walterbender hi tch___
17:12 rralcala bernie: I won't have much
17:12 tch___ walterbender: hello!, sorry I am late
17:13 rralcala but enough to maintain 2 services, be available in case of emergency and monitor pyeduca's part
17:13 tch___: Hola viejo
17:13 bernie tch___: hello!
17:13 rralcala bernie: is that useful?
17:13 cjl hola tch___
17:13 rgs_ bernie: yeah maybe discussing in terms of service ownership is better?
17:14 bernie rgs_: yes, that would be good. let's wait until the third agenda item
17:14 rgs_ bernie: also, as you said, perhaps some of those services that PyEduca will host can be extended to other deployments later on/
17:14 ?
17:14 tch___ hola todos :)
17:15 rgs_ tch___: are you guys gonna  be building new images for Caacupe this year?
17:15 tch___: if so, is this something we want to do in SL's infra?
17:15 bernie: ^
17:16 bernie rralcala: we're all very busy, we don't expect anyone to have all that much free time. however, system administration is different from software development. In case you realize at some point that you lack the time to maintain something,i ask that you look for a new owner and pass the responsibility to this person.
17:16 tch___ rgs_: yes, since tomorrow ill be mentoring some FPUNA students to help me with the a new build
17:17 bernie rralcala: can you accept to do this?
17:17 rralcala bernie: Sure
17:17 bernie thanks!
17:18 tch___ rralcala: welcome!
17:18 rralcala bernie: Also being in GMT +3 I think helps to be available
17:18 bernie tch___: sorry for not asking before: do you also want to join the infra team?
17:18 tch___: initially both you and roberto were called, then only him
17:19 rralcala: yeah, it's good to have people on the team who are awake when the rest of us are sleeping
17:19 walterbender bernie: shall we jump to - Status update on SL infra (everyone)?
17:19 bernie walterbender: sure. i'll try to be brief
17:19 walterbender As I think we #agree that rralcala is an asset
17:19 #topic - Status update on SL infra (everyone)
17:19 tch___ bernie: I could help if needed, but I am probably more useful in other place inside SL hehe
17:20 bernie tch___: ok no worries.
17:20 ok, where do i start from?
17:20 i guess from the bottom
17:20 == Hosting ==
17:21 SL used to be hosted in very disparate locations, but over time we've consolidated on 2 main locations:
17:21 1. The FSF hosts our main virtual machine, sunjammer, in their colocation facility in boston downtown
17:22 2. The Media Lab hosts 2 new servers called freedom and justice, plus dogi's machine housetree which is still running a couple of things for us
17:23 ah, there's also 3. some old buildbots are still running at Develer, in Italy, but we'll probably move everything over and shut down my ancient machine.
17:23 == Capacity ==
17:23 We have two brand new machines, and lots of spare disk, ram and cpu
17:24 creating new VMs shouldn't be a problem. the only thing that is hard to scale up is sysadmin time
17:24 dnarvaez duh I like the italy machine :)
17:24 bernie dnarvaez: ah ok, then we can keep it around. it has some historic value for me as well :-)
17:24 dnarvaez :)
17:25 bernie Our new production VMs should be mostly concentrated on justice.
17:25 freedom is meant to be a hot spare box, and currently runs a few buildbots for dnarvaez and a few experimental VMs that belong to dogi
17:26 in case justice suddenly dies, we simply go over to the ML and swap the drives. this is why we shouldn't host anything important on freedom.
17:26 == Backups ==
17:27 We do cross-backups between freedom and justice. sunjammer still backs itself up on housetree, but we should fix that
17:28 all VMs _must_ be backed up one way or another. by design, we do not provide backups at the kvm level (details offline if someone is curious)
17:29 we have plenty of disk space for backups, but it's important to monitor to avoid filling up the disks due to log spew and other files that grow without bounds
17:29 == Monitoring ==
17:29 we've been using munin for a long time for graphs and alerts. rgs recently upgraded it to version 2.0
17:29 rgs_ (recently == a year ago)
17:30 bernie by our infrastructure's standards :-)
17:30 muning isn't perfect, but it served us well. it also sends alerts to the systems-logs@ list AND to my phone
17:31 if anyone has the guts to deal with the annoyance, make it page your phone too
17:31 anyway, when something goes wrong people generally complain on irc and by email
17:32 cjl == Infrastructure Documentation ==
17:32 bernie it would be good if everyone (including newcomers) made their contact info available to get notified
17:32 cjl http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Infrastructure_Team
17:32 bernie cjl: oh yeah, good point
17:32 cjl :-)
17:33 bernie we used to have really crappy documentation, but more recently we became more diligent in keeping it up to date
17:33 cjl Let's not let it get stale
17:33 bernie one secret to fresh documentation is... not too much of it
17:34 cjl hears the same works for sushi. . .
17:34 bernie i mainly worked to remove redundant info and standardize how we document services
17:34 rralcala1 <rralcala1!~rralcala1@41.222.177.40> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:34 bernie any new service _*MUST*_ be documented in the wiki
17:34 if it's not documented, it can't be in production
17:34 actually, the three requirements before we can add something to *.sugarlabs.org are:
17:34 1. backups
17:34 2. monitoring
17:35 3. documentation
17:35 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/I[…]re_Team/Resources  <- this is the sysadmin playbook for most services and administration tasks
17:35 == Services ==
17:35 There are many. in fact, a bit too many
17:36 Some of them are half-abandoned, even
17:36 we'll talk about Trac and Pootle later, those are my main concern right now
17:36 cjl :-(
17:36 bernie sunjammer hosts most of our public-facing infrastructure, while jita hosts most of our development infrastructure
17:37 rralcala has quit IRC
17:37 bernie we don't have a clear 1:1 relationship between services and servers
17:38 this has been discussed several times in the past, but I feel that it's easier to maintain fewer machines running multiple *related* things
17:38 of course, it's a matter of personal preference. whoever pledges to do the work gets to decide how to split it
17:38 rralcala1 has quit IRC
17:40 bernie ay, forgot: almost all our VMs run ubuntu at this time and i'd like to keep it this way. I'm primarily a fedora person, but i think that uniformity across the infrastructure saves us a lot of time
17:40 rralcala1 <rralcala1!~rralcala1@41.222.183.62> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:40 bernie migrating everything over to another distro would be overkill, and ubuntu worked very well for us so far (this might change soon :-)
17:41 tch___ bernie: rracala seems having trouble getting in IRC, (glod bless logs)
17:41 sdanielf bernie, BTW, they are running Ubuntu 10.04, should they be updated?
17:41 rgs_ bernie: why might it changed?
17:41 rralcala1 glod bless logs
17:41 rgs_ *change
17:41 bernie sdanielf: yes, sunjammer badly needs an upgrade
17:41 == Moving forward ==
17:42 1. upgrade sunjammer to precise (one day i'll get around to do it, and it will be painful)
17:43 2. finish migrating things from treehouse (pootle is the only SL thing missing... dogi is probably happy to host the vms of PyEdu and rgs, but check with him)
17:44 Sorry, i meant from housetree. treehouse is dead as far as i know.
17:44 3. Consolidate user accounts: currently we have a mix of ldap, cas, mediawiki accounts and whatnot
17:45 4. Membership management. Currently, the poor lfaraone has to process all requests by hand. Something like civicrm with a good registration form would save a lot of time.
17:46 last point goes with point 3: it's shameful and confusing for users that we have different passwords for different parts of the same infra
17:48 5. deal with spam. some heroes, including fgrose and cjl, spend a lot of time cleaning up wikis, bug tracker and whatnot. Someone should really help them solve the problem with capchas etc
17:49 cjl recently Pootle has come under attack from forum spamming bots that have learned the trick of activating accounts by clicking on confirmation links
17:49 bernie 6. New website. this has been on the table for *years* with very little progress. Someone should take ownership and get it done for good. I'd recommend something very simple, maybe just a single page, but very well designed.
17:49 cjl: :-(
17:50 cjl I had to turn off self-service registration
17:50 bernie jeez
17:51 cjl: recently i had to re-enable registration in mediawiki to help tch___ register his students
17:51 sdanielf has quit IRC
17:51 bernie I feel that all these problems could be solved if someone takes (3) in their hands.
17:51 not an easy task, though
17:51 cjl true
17:52 bernie it pretty much affects everything
17:52 sdanielf <sdanielf!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:52 bernie alsroot has been working on it and did good progress with CAS
17:52 ask him for the details, i feel that he has more status than me
17:52 ok, enough for this agenda item... let's move on
17:52 i promised i'd be brief, but i lied :-)
17:53 rgs_ heh
17:53 bernie walterbender: GA
17:53 walterbender OK. I think next up was the specific needs of pyedu
17:53 bernie rralcala1: are you still tuned?
17:53 rgs_ rralcala1: tch___ : ^
17:53 walterbender #topic - Paraguay Educa hosting requirements (rralcala)
17:53 sdanielf has quit IRC
17:54 rralcala1 Yes
17:54 tch___ rgs_: reading :)
17:54 rralcala1 Pyeduca basically ran into trouble because of lighting/power/ rat eating wire/vpn and no sysadmin
17:54 and there are core services that keeps caacupe running
17:55 what we need
17:55 and tch___ please correct me if I'm wrong
17:55 bernie rralcala1: yeah, i remember the server room not being a very stable environment
17:55 rralcala1 is to move two vms that basically keeps caacupe running
17:55 to somewhere else
17:56 and SL is the best option for us, in case possible
17:56 those are inventario and mothership
17:56 the key server
17:56 bernie rralcala1: one question: do you know what's the ping time from caacupe to the ML versus the PyEdu office?
17:56 tch___ rralcala1: you doing good :)
17:57 rgs_ bernie: probs ~300ms
17:57 but tch___ and rralcala1 will tell you the right #
17:58 rralcala1 bernie: Right now we can't test it as VPN is down
17:58 bernie: It should be around 50 and 100 ms due to the wimax last miles
17:58 bernie i guess it doesn't matter for mothership
17:58 and it matters a little for inventario
17:58 rralcala1 bernie: I agree
17:59 bernie it matters the most for the wiki, but that's already hosted at SL :-)
17:59 rralcala1 bernie: Also that's one of the reasons we want to move both
17:59 bernie: to ensure low latency between them
17:59 bernie rralcala1: ah, they intercommunicate?
17:59 rralcala1 bernie: mothership and inventario yes
18:00 tch___ bernie: inventario feeds mothership with activation info
18:00 bernie of course they do... i forgot most of the details
18:00 rralcala1 bernie: The other reason is because inventario holds all the serials and owners :)
18:01 bernie that's sort of sensitive data.
18:02 bah, i guess we can carry it. the olpc activation server is racked just next to freedom and justice
18:02 we should make sure we have plenty of backups, also on a secure machine
18:02 tch___ bernie: it is, inventario tells which laptop is in the hand of who and where
18:03 bernie rralcala1, tch___: who needs to have access to those machines, beside the two of you?
18:04 rralcala1 bernie: I suggest cgaray as well, but I haven't spoke to him
18:05 bernie rralcala1: ok. keep in mind that any of the SL core sysadmins can easily access the disk of the machine from the kvm host
18:06 rralcala1 bernie: Ok tch___ and me in the meantime
18:07 bernie rralcala1: are you going to install 2 new VMs, or move over the old ones?
18:07 i think i've already asked you this in the past, but for the record...
18:08 rralcala1 bernie: I'd like to install two new ones
18:08 bernie: Bu for inventario I'll  probably need the hand of tch___
18:08 tch___: ^
18:09 tch___ rralcala1: yeah, it is the perfect opportunity to upgrade stuff, dsd did a lot of work to inventario/yaas in the last 2 years
18:10 bernie rralcala1: tch is of course very welcome. if you need to add new collaborators, even to the VMs you manage personally, please make sure they understand and agree to follow our security policies
18:11 rralcala1: in the past we had trouble with junior admins doing very dangerous things with lax permissions and open ports
18:12 tch___: that's very cool. do you think we could host a public instance with fake user data as a demo for otherdeployments?
18:13 tch___ bernie: of course
18:14 bernie tch___, rralcala1: ok. i guess we have all the requirements?
18:14 tch___ bernie: every deployment should have its own instance of inventario and yaas ;)
18:14 bernie ah, what about wiki.paraguayeduca.org? do we want to move it?
18:15 rralcala1 bernie: I'd like to do it host by host, and I think it is not on amnesia (inventario)
18:16 bernie dogi called me up on the phone this morning and said that he's happy to host stuff for PyEdu on treehouse, but talk with him for the details.
18:25 meeting <meeting!~sugaroid@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
18:26 bernie cjl: we had trac first, but i'm afraid it will be very short
18:26 cjl uh, oh.  meeting jsut joined, does tha mean no logs?
18:26 alsroot meeting lives also on jita
18:27 bernie cjl: :-(
18:28 cjl: no, logs are ok: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]eeting/2013-03-31
18:28 meeting alsroot: Error: "lives" is not a valid command.
18:28 cjl well, copy/paste fop scrollback can work
18:28 ok
18:28 bernie #topic Trac maintenance (bernie)
18:28 walterbender: i cannot do it
18:29 walterbender sorry... got distracted for a few mnutes
18:29 rgs_ bernie: what's the maintenance about - just updating it?
18:29 bernie: I can get that one
18:29 bernie rgs_: yes, it's tragically outdated
18:29 rgs_: thanks
18:29 rgs_: that's what i was hoping to hear :-)
18:30 rgs_ bernie: you'll have to buy me beer when in town tho
18:30 alsroot it seems that meeting lost meeting session. for now it doesn't track this meeting but logs will exists any way in non-meeting mode
18:30 bernie rgs_: we have a devel instance on sunjammer: /srv/www-sugarlabs/bugs-devel
18:31 #start-meeting
18:31 meeting Meeting started Sun Mar 31 18:31:42 2013 UTC. The chair is bernie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:31 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
18:31 bernie #topic Trac maintenance (bernie)
18:31 alsroot: all right.
18:32 sorry guys for rebooting the old jita. it's that a few years ago we had a power outage at the ML and when i saw it running i thought i had just forgotten to remove it from the autostart
18:32 rgs_ bernie: cool
18:32 bernie which suggests that the ML also isn't immune from power outages :-)
18:33 rgs_: anyway, the trac devel instance should match (more or less) the production one
18:33 rgs_: if you can upgrade that, then we can do the other one
18:34 rgs_: maybe send an announcement on #sugar and sugar-devel@ if you plan any downtime
18:35 rgs_ bernie: k
18:35 bernie rgs_: i found some upgrade notes here: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Service/bugs
18:35 rgs_ bernie: hey, gotta go do some errands in SF
18:35 bernie: i'll follow-up on this with you offline later today
18:35 bernie rgs_: i remember both me and silbe struggling a bit with the weird upgrade procedure
18:36 rgs_: btw, if you figure out a migration path from trac to something that seems better maintained upstream, feel free to propose it to developers
18:36 rgs_: but for the time being an upgrade would be awesome
18:36 rgs_: people have been complaining to me that they get frequent 500 errors from our trac
18:36 ok, next topic?
18:37 #topic Pootle maintenance (bernie)
18:37 it should have been (cjl), i guess
18:37 cjl Pootle is ancient (2.0.5), some features (suggestion workflow) are not working.
18:37 I'd love to get an upgrade of Pootle to the soon-to-be-released 2.5, but I keep losing my sysadmin volunteers :-(
18:38 2.5 should be very stable as it has been running on translate.org and for Mozilla for a while now.  There has been a lot invested in Pootle (by Mozilla) since the version we're running
18:38 We may need a multi-step upgrade path, I'm not sure a direct jump from 2.0.5 to 2.5 is possible.
18:38 bernie Any takers?
18:39 rralcala1 I haven't used Pootle before, but I can do it, after testing somewhere else :)
18:40 cjl rralcala1: That would be great
18:40 bernie rralcala1: we have a brand new vm for pootle, probably empty right now
18:40 yeah, newpootle.sugarlabs.oeg
18:40 org
18:40 rralcala1 bernie: Great
18:41 bernie: so I can freely try there right?
18:41 cjl The RC for Pootle isn't goin gt ochange much before the release
18:41 bernie rralcala1: the "only" thing to do is installing pootle :-)
18:42 rralcala1: the pootle service is pretty well documented: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Service/translate
18:42 rralcala1 bernie: I did my homework :)
18:42 bernie rralcala1: we could not maintain it decently because nobody on our team is familiar with the intricacies of django
18:42 cjl http://docs.translatehouse.org[…]sion_control.html
18:43 http://docs.translatehouse.org[…]/users/index.html
18:44 bernie rralcala1: if you manage to solve the pootle crisis, you'll get my life-time gratitude
18:44 cjl me too
18:44 rralcala1 bernie: My tariffs are in beer currency
18:45 bernie rralcala1: trust me, you don't want my american beer :-)
18:45 cjl For Poolte we can do beer L10n
18:46 rralcala1 bernie: I'm flexible as long is > 3.5%
18:46 bernie haha
18:46 i think you need something much stronger to deal with django :-)
18:46 rralcala1 bernie: cjl: If you agree let me have that upgrade as my first official task
18:47 cjl agreed
18:47 bernie anyway, keep in touch with cjl for all the details of pootle and i'll try to be of help if i can
18:47 rralcala1 bernie: I will
18:47 bernie rralcala1: +1
18:49 walterbender bernie: there are some very good American beers... better than that Moretti swill :)
18:50 bernie walterbender: hahaha, yes... i can't be proud of our national beers either.
18:50 and i can find awesome belgian beers here too
18:51 walterbender bernie: national beer is an oxymoron
18:51 bernie haha
18:51 walterbender good beer is always local
18:51 bernie all beer is local, otherwise it wouldn't be close enough to drink it
18:51 walterbender bernie: shall we jump into the last topic?
18:52 bernie template:fozzy_the_bear
18:52 yup
18:52 #topic Code hosting on GitHub (walter)
18:52 walterbender #topic - hosting code on GitHub (walter)
18:52 dnarvaez has been experimenting with a workflow for github
18:53 there are a number of potential advantage, not the least of which would be to lessen the infrastructure burden
18:53 dnarvaez e
18:53 walterbender that would presume a complete migration, which may be complicated by things like pootle integration
18:53 alsroot could someone list them
18:54 walterbender there are some disadvantages too
18:54 alsroot: I've been experimenting with the workflow and there are some nice features on github, like the ability to make inline comments during a review
18:55 dnarvaez the main reason we are considering github is that pull request allows 1 to make the review process visible to anyone interested 2 they allow to track reviews in progress
18:55 walterbender and the possibility of more visibility to potential contributors
18:55 rralcala1_ <rralcala1_!~rralcala1@41.59.27.191> has joined #sugar-meeting
18:55 alsroot it exists on gitorious in some kind (didn't compare), the point is that nobody uses them
18:55 dnarvaez (well the review-related reasons, cjb suggested non review related reasons too)
18:55 walterbender and someone else maintains the infrastrcuture
18:56 of course, in 3 days, I have gotten more 404 errors on github than in the past year on g.sl.o
18:56 dnarvaez alsroot: yes, I have not played with gitorious pull requests yet and perhaps we should. Someone suggested that they are better in github but I can't see anything about that myself
18:56 s/see/say
18:56 alsroot it doesn't matter which is the best if it is not being used
18:56 cjl In gitorious they are "merge requests" aren't they?
18:57 rralcala1_ is now known as rralcala
18:57 walterbender dnarvaez: so far, for me, the real benefit has been the inline comments... that is a great productivity tool
18:57 dnarvaez alsroot: we are going to try and use them
18:57 walterbender dnarvaez: I use them pretty routinely working with new contributors on my apps
18:57 dnarvaez alsroot: they won't be used unless the maintainers says they will accept patch that way...
18:57 walterbender: yep
18:58 bernie yes, works also on gitorious: https://git.sugarlabs.org/test[…]/merge_requests/1
18:58 alsroot walterbender: inline comment, afaik, exists also in gitrorious
18:58 walterbender alsroot: I'd love a tutorial
18:58 dnarvaez I honestly don't have a strong point about gitorious vs github
18:58 walterbender made a merge request on g.sl.o just this morning
18:58 and it has already been merged :)
18:58 dnarvaez I feel more stronly about pull requests vs trac/ml
18:59 walterbender dnarvaez: +1
18:59 rralcala1 has quit IRC
18:59 bernie dnarvaez: is the underlying issue that reviews on the mailing list are being done too slowly or something like that?
18:59 dnarvaez I think cjb has point about github being the standard these days though
18:59 bernie windows is also the standard...
18:59 dnarvaez having your own git hosting service it's becoming a bit like having your own social service :)
19:00 bernie: reviews on the ml can't be tracked
19:00 walterbender my question to the infra team is more concerning load
19:00 alsroot dnarvaez: we already did it, ML, wiki, git, trac
19:00 walterbender what is the overhead of maintaining g.sl.o?
19:00 alsroot s/did/do/
19:00 dnarvaez bernie: also it's much less pleasant to review in an email form than in a web tool designed for reviweing
19:00 alsroot: seems pretty different, those are not social services
19:00 github has a pretty strong social component these days
19:01 walterbender should that be a factor in our decision about our review process?
19:01 dnarvaez it acts sort of like a CV even...
19:01 alsroot anyway, ML vs request review is a bit offtopic for git.sl.o vs. github
19:01 bernie dnarvaez: so the thinking is that, by making the UI more pleasant, reviews are going to be prioritized over other work?
19:01 dnarvaez they are two separate issues, yes
19:01 walterbender I worry that as much as we'd like to maintain all of our own services, the infra team is overburdened
19:02 dnarvaez bernie: the "pleasant" part is mostly a nice side effect :) the required points are the two I said at the beginning
19:02 walterbender so is g.sl.o a worthy candidate for decomissioning?
19:02 dnarvaez bernie: being able to track and being visible to everyone
19:02 bernie: ml doesn't give you that, nor trac
19:02 alsroot git.sl.o takes attention mostly during upgrade time (one time in 2y)
19:03 dnarvaez alsroot: should consider also the bug tracking part though, github offers that
19:03 walterbender alsroot: OK. so that answers my question... it will have little impact on the infra team
19:03 cjl and we just had the upgrade recently?
19:03 dnarvaez alsroot: and trac seems to be a prob for you guys
19:03 bernie walterbender: i feel that, of all the services we have, gitorious has been pretty maintenable for us
19:03 walterbender bernie: OK...
19:03 after the upgrade, it is reasonably responsive
19:03 it was pretty painful to use before that
19:04 bernie walterbender: the only feature we lack is a UI for changing project ownership, but github also won't provide it to us.
19:04 dnarvaez: for patch tracking, silbe was fond of this: http://patchwork.sugarlabs.org[…]oject/sugar/list/
19:04 dnarvaez bernie: patchwork doesn't work :P
19:05 bernie dnarvaez: i never felt that _tracking_ the patch was very useful per se. the lkml has easily scaled to the size of over 1000 developers without patchwork
19:05 dnarvaez proof is that everyone set it up and then not use it for real, included us
19:05 bernie: our maintainers feels otherwise
19:05 bernie: they are using trac because ml doesn't provide tracking
19:05 walterbender I agree... patchwork was too much overhead for the lowly developer
19:06 bernie dnarvaez: the problem i had years ago, when trying to upstream work from paraguay, was that patches don't get reviewed very quickly. neither in trac, nor on the mailing list.
19:06 dnarvaez bernie: I don't think the tool is the main issue there, but it is involbed
19:06 bernie dnarvaez: this is why i'm skeptical that changing the tool once again would fix the problem by itself
19:06 dnarvaez bernie: the main issue is that we need more people to do reviews, the current ones are too few and too busy
19:06 walterbender bernie: but workflow does matter
19:07 dnarvaez bernie: we are going to get more people with patch approval powers
19:07 bernie dnarvaez: agreed
19:07 walterbender and optimizing the efforts of our handful of reviewers would make sense
19:07 bernie dnarvaez: wait, DISAGREED on the second part: being too busy is not a good excuse imho
19:07 dnarvaez bernie: but that requires patches to be visible to everyone, so that the most experienced maintainers would still be able to keep an eye on things
19:07 alsroot lets be concentrated on practical question, ie, "git.sl.o vs. github" (the patch workflow is a real offtopic since should be widely discussed)
19:07 bernie dnarvaez: it's a matter of priority: reviews should come before other things, in order for the project to work well
19:08 dnarvaez bernie: people are currently using trac, which doesn't provide visibility. So we need to get off there :)
19:08 bernie dnarvaez: for patch reviews?
19:08 walterbender bernie: what is the overhead of maintaining trac?
19:08 dnarvaez bernie: and our maintainer clearly said they are not using ml because they can't track open bugs
19:08 bernie walterbender: none, because it's not being maintained :-)
19:08 dnarvaez bernie: yes, most patches are being reviewed in trac these days
19:09 bernie: so we need something which gives both visibility and trackability
19:09 bernie: which is why we started to play with pull requests
19:09 walterbender maybe we need to revisit the merge request system on g.sl.o (and figure out how to do inline comments on commits)
19:09 bernie dnarvaez: hmm... i don't believe better tracking will do much without giving more priority to reviews, but if we want to give github a shot, i will help out.
19:09 walterbender alsroot: can you please look into ^^
19:10 dnarvaez bernie: what will do something is to get more people to do reviews
19:10 alsroot suggests popup (if it makes sense) popup patch workflow question widely and revisit "git.sl.o vs. github) question after that (more especially, there is a FOSS analog of github and we can install SL instance w/ keeping all benefits we have w/ git.sl.o)
19:10 dnarvaez bernie: that's my main goal
19:10 bernie dnarvaez: that was my belief too, when i asked to switch from trac to the mailing list
19:11 (this was over 2 years ago, i'm not very up to date these days)
19:12 walterbender FWIW, my goal in raising the topic in this meeting was more informational... understanding the impact from the infra POV
19:12 dnarvaez bernie: yes but we need to use a tool our maintainers are comfortable with, and they aren't with mls
19:12 walterbender seems like a nop from that perspective
19:13 dnarvaez bernie: otherwise they just won't use it, which is what happened
19:13 walterbender so we can bring those data back to the broader devel team discussion
19:13 bernie dnarvaez: ok, why don't we switch over a couple of core repos, say sugar and sugar-toolkit and see if it helps speed up reviews a bit?
19:13 dnarvaez: if it seems to work, after a while we can switch everything else too
19:13 walterbender bernie: that is what dnarvaez has been doing
19:13 dnarvaez bernie: yup, exactly. That's what I've been trying :)
19:14 alsroot walterbender: from infra pov, the benefits we have are: (1) close integration w/ the rest of SL infra (accounts, sending translate.sl.o notifies, patchwork, possibly more); (2) we have more freedom to add/remove/modify the content;
19:14 walterbender alsroot: the t.sl.o one is perhaps the deal breaker
19:14 dnarvaez somethign I would be interested to know from you guys
19:15 is the bug tracking situation
19:15 bernie dnarvaez: ah ok. which repos are currently on github? do we need to link to them from somewhere?
19:15 dnarvaez just to keep that also into account
19:15 bernie dnarvaez: if you guys like trac, rgs is going to upgrade it soon
19:15 walterbender it is a messy situation
19:15 bernie i think trac is pure crap, but i never switched because developers seemed to like it more than redmine and other options
19:15 walterbender in part because there are bugs tracked downstream as well
19:16 dnarvaez bernie: just sugar for now and we have only tried with walterbender patches. Next step I want to check with maintainers if they are fine with trying it out for all patches
19:16 what are the alternatives to trac? redmine and bugzilla?
19:17 bernie dnarvaez: ok. if you get the buy in of most developers, i guess the migration can happen incrementally. the benefit of git is that you have a full copy of the history so moving things around doesn't require sysadmin help
19:17 walterbender rgs_ mentioned http://phabricator.org/ this morning
19:17 looks pretty interesting
19:17 dnarvaez bernie: yup exactly, git is really helpful here :)
19:17 bernie dnarvaez: and, i guess, we can keep gitorious around for the old projects that nobody wants to migrate
19:17 dnarvaez: we did the very same thing to migrate things from dev.laptop,org
19:18 alsroot generally, anyone is free to choose code hosting
19:18 ..right now
19:18 walterbender yes... there are some apps hosted on github already
19:18 dnarvaez phabricator might be worth explroiing yeah, though it would be more work for our sysadmins
19:18 Cerlyn GitlabHQ came up in one discussion I was in
19:18 but I haven't used it
19:18 walterbender or different work
19:19 bernie walterbender, rgs_: do you guys want to try setting up one of thse things? gitorious' review UI might simply be plain bad... i don't know because I use it just as a self-service git publishing tool.
19:19 alsroot: yup
19:19 Cerlyn: what is it?
19:19 Cerlyn http://gitlab.org/ - seems to be a full product management solution for git users
19:20 walterbender Cerlyn: but it doesn't seem to have a tracker
19:20 dnarvaez I think we shouldd not discount the social aspects of github though :)
19:20 it's really becoming what everyone uses these days
19:20 Cerlyn walterbender: What would you call "issues" then
19:21 walterbender Cerlyn: /me looks again
19:21 Cerlyn Just because someone pointed it out to me for possible OLPC use doesn't mean SL needs to consider it, but it's a thing out there
19:22 bernie dnarvaez: that's understandable... otoh it disturbs me a bit to see a project our size depend on an external web service for its core development infrastructure
19:22 dnarvaez: granted, git is easy to migrate even if github goes down all of a sudden...
19:22 walterbender Cerlyn: I see the word issues but not description anywhere... /me keeps looking
19:23 dnarvaez bernie: yeah I mean, there are downsides too certainly... and yeah git makes it less critical
19:23 bernie dnarvaez: but it would be awkward for projects like gnome and kde to host their code on some other domain, and so for us.
19:23 dnarvaez even mozilla is hosting a lot of stuff on github these days
19:24 bernie dnarvaez: oh really? well, then...
19:24 dnarvaez they still have mozilla-central tbh
19:24 though firefox os seems to be mostly github
19:24 bernie and kde almost lost all its git repos due to a disk corruption issue combined with buggy backup scripts
19:24 dnarvaez so maybe they are moving towards github, I dunno
19:24 cjl wandering afk
19:24 dnarvaez perhaps trying it out like us :P
19:25 Cerlyn github seems to be the new sourceforge
19:25 dnarvaez Cerlyn: now, that makes me want to run away from it :P
19:25 bernie anyway, does anyone want to experiment with locally hosted alternatives to gitorious?
19:26 if nobody volunteers, github will remain the only obvious choice
19:26 oh, besides trying out gitorious review workflow if anyone cares
19:26 dnarvaez planning to try out gitorious workflow at some point
19:26 bernie Cerlyn: indeed.
19:27 dnarvaez but I first want to focus on pull requests in general
19:27 bernie dnarvaez: let me know what you think. i never used it myself.
19:27 dnarvaez if we can prove pull requests work well for us, that's a good step :)
19:27 bernie: yup
19:27 bernie dnarvaez: i had not even realized that people had gone back to attaching patches to bugs in trac
19:27 -1
19:27 dnarvaez bernie: heh I havent realized for a while either, I thought developemnt just stalled :P
19:27 bernie dnarvaez: haha :-)
19:28 walterbender dnarvaez, alsroot: inline comments do work in gitorious in merge requests :)
19:28 bernie hey, does it mean i can turn off patchwork.sugarlabs.org? i've always hated it
19:28 dnarvaez walterbender: that's good, would have been a blocker for me :)
19:28 bernie: I think so yeah
19:28 bernie with great pleasure
19:29 #action bernie kills patchwork with great pleasure
19:29 ok, shall we call it a day?
19:29 walterbender dnarvaez: maybe we can experiment with another series of patches using gitorious merge-request?
19:29 bernie this meeting has been going on and on for a while
19:29 we should probably have one per month or so
19:30 dnarvaez walterbender: sure, maybe post the web service one there too?
19:30 walterbender dnarvaez: I could, or perhaps background image?
19:30 bernie dogi was telling me that he'd like to do weekly treehouse meetings, but i feel the frequency is a bit too high for my current time budget.
19:30 walterbender bernie: prob. once per month is enough
19:30 bernie how do people feel?
19:30 tch____ bernie: I didn't add much this time, but this meeting would be a good space for community integration also ;)
19:30 dnarvaez one per month seem good/enough for me too
19:31 bernie would someone like to send a monthly reminder to systems@ for the monthly meeting? I totally suck at remembering appointments
19:31 reminder + agenda
19:32 tch____: yup
19:32 walterbender sounds like a job for rralcala :)
19:33 bernie rralcala: yeah come on!
19:33 i'll actually also put a reminder in my calendar
19:33 walterbender quick... everyone take one step back
19:34 bernie but yeah, don't count on me for things that require organizational skills
19:34 dnarvaez walterbender: sure background image is fine too
19:34 alsroot bernie: Re: bernie kills patchwork with great pleasure -- are you sure that nobody uses it :)
19:34 walterbender dnarvaez: OK. I'll get that one started
19:34 bernie alsroot: the oldest patches are from 10-2012...
19:35 the *NEWEST* patches
19:35 alsroot bernie: anyway, better to ping silbe`away in this case
19:35 bernie alsroot: i'd do it, but i was unable to contact him for months now
19:36 tch____ bernie: maybe this wakes him up? xD
19:36 bernie alsroot: i'm actually somewhat worried for him
19:38 most colorful global notice ever
19:38 anyway, end meeting?
19:38 walterbender yes...
19:38 bernie 3..
19:38 2...
19:38 walterbender 1
19:38 bernie 1...
19:38 0.5...
19:38 #endmeeting
19:38 meeting Meeting ended Sun Mar 31 19:38:54 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
19:38 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-31T18:31:42.html
19:38 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]13-03-31T18:31:42
19:39 walterbender just to make sure the other meeting really ended...
19:39 #endmeeting
19:39 thanks all
19:39 tch____ arigato!
19:39 cjl meudo obrigado
19:40 bernie -> food
19:40 and then patchwork axing
19:40 tch____ lol
19:42 rralcala Thank you for the confidence!
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20:53 satellit_f19 gnome3 desktop HD install from TC3
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