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#sugar-meeting, 2012-08-21

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14:13 mtd meeting?
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14:59 erikos #startmeeting
14:59 meeting_ Meeting started Tue Aug 21 14:59:21 2012 UTC. The chair is erikos. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:59 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:59 erikos who is around for the dev meting?
14:59 humitos erikos: me
14:59 erikos hi
15:01 pflores in background
15:02 garycmartin but only just hanging on to network!
15:03 erikos garycmartin: ok ;p
15:03 Agenda:
15:03 - introducing new contributors
15:04 - 0.98 Feature proposal deadline
15:04 - follow up the shell port: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3/Shell (manuq)
15:04 - follow up the touch support in the shell: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]Touch/Development (erikos)
15:04 - follow up the activities port, touch addition (including gestures), releasing of new activities (gonzalo)
15:04 - review process and code acceptance policy (silbe)
15:04 gonzalo_ hello
15:05 erikos humitos: I don't think vmeta is a Sugar subject in the first place
15:05 humitos: gonzalo_ or is it?
15:05 humitos erikos: ok, I wasn't sure... thanks
15:06 erikos ok, let's start then
15:06 gonzalo_ erikos, no erikos, wrong topic
15:06 erikos #topic: 0.98 Feature proposal deadline
15:06 mtd erikos: (hi, here)
15:07 lurks
15:07 erikos hey mtd, nice to see you!
15:07 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0[…]/Roadmap#Schedule
15:07 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.98/Feature_List
15:08 mtd erikos: same here :)
15:08 erikos if you work on a Feature for 0.98, and it should be there ^
15:08 cjl mumbles something indistinct and slouches in the back of the room
15:08 erikos deadline was yesterday, so you better tell that now
15:09 ajay: from your reading, the Journal multi-select one should be there, right?
15:09 s/reading/mails
15:10 ok, questions about that?
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15:10 erikos ok, next item then
15:10 #topic follow up the shell port: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3/Shell (manuq)
15:11 manuq: please :)
15:11 manuq so, shell port
15:11 in libxklavier the API we needed was added, I still have to test it
15:11 oh, as always the link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3/Shell
15:11 erikos great work
15:11 manuq dnarvaez found the faulty import that was crashing sugar, thanks dnarvaez!
15:12 erikos yeah, thanks daniel!
15:12 manuq he also ported the speech extension to introspectable gstreamer :)
15:12 erikos yeah ;p
15:12 manuq: we should upstream the patches from the toolkit-gtk3-porting repo
15:12 manuq: so we don't have to deal with two repos
15:13 manuq erikos: sure
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15:13 erikos manuq: I will have a look at the items
15:13 manuq: and then, the layout in the Views, we should check
15:13 manuq erikos: thanks
15:13 erikos manuq: how about, I start with this?
15:13 manuq erikos: very good, go on
15:14 quidam erikos: ajay seems to be away, but yes, we want that feature for 0.98 :)
15:14 manuq hey quidam
15:14 gonzalo_ quidam, and prxy configuration?
15:14 garycmartin quidam: and the proxy support?
15:14 erikos seen that there are quite some rough edges today and feels we have to invest
15:14 gonzalo_ garycmartin, :)
15:14 quidam and the 3g database
15:14 garycmartin gonzalo_: ;)
15:15 erikos quidam: the important part for those features would be that silbe helps with the review process
15:15 quidam erikos: +1
15:16 erikos quidam: as Manuel and myself are full into touch and shell port
15:16 quidam erikos: he asked in sugar-devel about the review process
15:16 erikos quidam: sure, we discussed that, I just want to make clear the resources
15:17 quidam: can not hurt to repeat from time to time
15:17 quidam: and you guys should plan in time to port it to GTK+3 as well
15:18 quidam erikos: +1 to all
15:18 I'll ask him to pitch in
15:18 erikos quidam: great
15:18 quidam: thanks
15:19 soooo, any more 0.98 feature topics/questions?
15:19 gonzalo_ quidam, proxy support was almost ready 6 months ago, should be nice if you push it this time
15:20 quidam erikos: maybe a dumb question since I lack info (wish silbe and ajay were here)
15:20 but what about the 3g database feature?
15:20 erikos gonzalo_: yes, I replied on the thread with a few questions for Sascha
15:20 cjl What other AC developed dx3 features will be landing in 0.98?
15:21 erikos quidam: can you elaborate?
15:21 gonzalo_ quidam, 3g database was ok from the point of view of design, need code review
15:21 quidam gonzalo_: so we can add it to the features list?
15:21 gonzalo_ quidam, we agreed do internal review before sending patches to sugar mailing list
15:22 cjl I ask primarily about the L10n that will be moving from the dx3-glu94 diff PO into Glucose.
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15:22 gonzalo_ quidam, yes
15:23 quidam, you should add it to the list http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]/Database_Support
15:23 erikos gonzalo_: quidam and please update the owner accordingly, I think both owners are not around anymore ;p
15:24 cjl: we are just trying to figure it out
15:25 quidam so AC features would be 3g database, proxy conf, multiselect and 1-to-n
15:25 gonzalo_ quidam, by the way, i think ajay should owner the multi select feature, i only worked in the initial design
15:25 erikos quidam: 1-to-n?
15:25 quidam transfer to many
15:26 cjl erikos ok, as we'd discussed before, there is very little string churn in Glucose this cycle, so I am pushing activity L10n, if several of the Ui string containing features will be landing, I may also push dx3-glu94 diff PO L10n as a "pre-L10n" step for Sugar 0.98
15:26 quidam but I'm sure I'm missing something here, as it is owned by you
15:26 erikos quidam: that has not been through design review nor through code review
15:26 dirakx erikos, +1 those feature pages are outdated.
15:26 erikos quidam: please keep it reasonable
15:26 quidam: we have a tight, tight schedule
15:27 quidam erikos: sure, I'm discussing on behalf of missing devels today, so I lack details
15:27 erikos quidam: ok, maybe best to follow up by mail
15:27 cjl erikos, it is worth noting that th4ese features have been in th efield for some time, they are not untested.
15:28 dirakx erikos, quidam cjl +1 it's better to follow by email. ;).
15:28 silbe caught up with the backlog (network routing issue prevented connection to IRC servers)
15:29 cjl dirakx: sure
15:29 erikos cjl: gettings things upstream takes time, including the port to GTK+3, so no matter if people used it in the field
15:30 cjl erikos: yes
15:30 erikos anyhow, something AC has to worry about in the first place, and then me schedule wise ;p
15:30 cjl I'm jsut trying to understand best application of L10n resources in the same way :-)
15:31 erikos silbe: so we were saying about the AC features, that you should coordinate, review them in the first place
15:31 silbe: (as I understand from the AC structure)
15:32 cjl: yeah, the decision what is worked on will be announced soon, then it is easier to see which strings changes
15:33 silbe: here now? or do you better want to reply async?
15:34 ok, let's move maybe on...
15:34 silbe erikos: yeah, the new approach to upstream reviews will enable me to spend more time on internal reviews.
15:34 quidam good :)
15:35 erikos silbe: good, and yo know the process and deadlines, so I leave the meat for those features in your hands
15:35 silbe or rather to keep the reviews internal at all - before everything was supposed to go upstream right away, so we could have a discussion early on about what's acceptable and what isn't.
15:36 quidam silbe: #define internal
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15:36 silbe quidam: not on sugar-devel
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15:37 erikos manuq: I guess, we two guys will just keep on hacking on the shell port with Daniel
15:37 manuq erikos: great
15:37 erikos manuq: and keep on reporting to the list, so people can join if possible
15:37 mtd: if you look for fun things to do, let me know :))
15:37 quidam silbe: I like that to happen in the open, you can go at your own pace, but allowing others to comment
15:38 tch___ <tch___!~tch@191.132.52.190.res.adsl.dyn.click.com.py> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:39 erikos ok, next item
15:39 quidam: silbe: I guess you can discuss what to do internally first ;p
15:39 #topic: follow up the touch support in the shell: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]/Touch/Developmen
15:40 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]Touch/Development
15:40 this goes at high speed, I have posted patches and design discussions to the ml
15:40 merged a few improvements already
15:40 questions/comments here?
15:41 cjl erikos, How much of this needs to land before touch work in activities can proceed?
15:41 Cerlyn erikos: When should formal testing of touch start?
15:42 erikos cjl: the gesture support needs to land first
15:43 Cerlyn: I will do snapshot builds at those dates http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.98/Roadmap
15:45 #topic - follow up the activities port, touch addition (including gestures), releasing of new activities (gonzalo)
15:45 gonzalo_: please :)
15:46 gonzalo_ erikos, a important topic is gestures, needed in a few activities
15:46 erikos gonzalo_: yes, Carlos will help us there, so this is on it's way
15:46 gonzalo_ we agreed use code from garnacho proposal to gtk project
15:46 erikos yes
15:47 gonzalo_ then, activity developers needing this should wait a little
15:47 there are a list of the proposed gestures in the mail too
15:48 dirakx, did you released new gtk3 activities? garycmartin ?
15:48 anybody else?
15:48 dirakx gonzalo_, not new ones, but in process for this week.
15:48 gonzalo_ dirakx, great!
15:48 garycmartin I've started in Physics, but keep getting distracted with other design tasks.
15:48 cjl erikos If I were to try to reel in an AbiWord dev to work on adding touch to Write/AbiWord do you have a guesstimate of the right timeline for them to start work (given that gestures in Sugar are needed first)?
15:49 gonzalo_ cjl, we are working with carlos garnacho already in this topic, please communicate with us
15:49 cjl ok
15:51 erikos gonzalo_: ok, thanks for keeping it up, any more issues you want to raise?
15:51 gonzalo_: do you need specific help with something?
15:51 gonzalo_ garycmartin, any news about clock (cairo port/hands and so)
15:51 erikos gonzalo_: (ohh btw, I grepped today the actiivties on the latest XO build, and many activities do still use hippo)
15:52 garycmartin gonzalo_: sorry haven't touched it since we last spoke.
15:52 erikos gonzalo_: I guess for the next release we cannot drop the dependency, right?
15:52 gonzalo_ erikos, yes?
15:52 erikos gonzalo_: yep
15:52 gonzalo_ erikos, hmm, will check but we should be almost ready
15:53 dirakx gonzalo_, garycmartin we will need a list of those activities ;), to tackle.
15:54 gonzalo_ dirakx, starting xo with new image to do the grep
15:54 erikos gonzalo_: ok, thanks
15:54 dirakx gonzalo_, yep.
15:54 gonzalo_ erikos, i do not have other activities topics, anybody else?
15:55 erikos gonzalo_: (was probably in the 12.1.0 build == older versions)
15:55 gonzalo_: thanks
15:55 #topic: review process and code acceptance policy (silbe)
15:55 silbe: please :)
15:56 silbe I assume by now everyone had time to read and reflect on my mail, so we decide on the changes?
15:57 erikos silbe: to me, the outcome of this mail is the difference between the in-depth and short-review
15:58 ajay erikos, quidam: gonzalo_: oops.. sorry.. just came in. Could we add on the multi-select status-update discussion please? :P
15:58 silbe as mentioned in the mail, "The two major changes are making in-depth reviews by senior developers
15:58 optional and non-blocking (II.) as well as accepting "no ceiling"
15:58 (VI.) and standards compliance (VII.) patches."
15:58 (sorry for the extra line breaks)
15:59 erikos silbe: those are out of this discussion, imho
15:59 silbe: they can be goals, but nothing we need to decide on
15:59 silbe: if a patch makes sense, we get it in
15:59 but that should be on a patch per patch basis
16:00 silbe I think requiring only short reviews in already practice by now, so the only remaining controversial part is about standards compliance  and "no ceiling" patches
16:00 gonzalo_ yeah, "no ceiling" is a difuse category
16:00 silbe s/in/is/
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16:01 gonzalo_ "no ceiling" probably will be defined different by walter and you :)
16:01 erikos hehe
16:01 manuq <manuq!~manuq@host233.190-136-200.telecom.net.ar> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:02 gonzalo_ for walter means all sugar should be turtle art, of course :)
16:02 silbe if it helps, the exact wording in my mail was "Accept patches into mainline that are likely to increase the number of contributors using Sugar themselves (A) or to increase their usage of Sugar, even if the patch doesn't directly benefit the XO target user base. It should not have a negative impact on the XO target user base, of course."
16:04 erikos silbe: let's decide when there is a patch
16:04 gonzalo_ silbe, probably apply the same than before, patch by patch
16:04 erikos silbe: I am happy to look at http://patchwork.sugarlabs.org/patch/826/ for example
16:05 but I don't decide on something generic like this
16:05 this can only be a high levelgoal
16:05 silbe The question basically is whether the target audience of Sugar should be restricted to that of the XO (i.e. school children) or whether we want to be inclusive enough to allow people using Sugar to upstream their patches.
16:06 kartik_perisetla <kartik_perisetla!~yaaic@42.109.16.150> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:07 gonzalo_ certainly more dogfood will be good, we have discussed add git to the olpc images in fact
16:07 silbe erikos: PW#826 is not just about "no ceiling", but also about standards compliance. Can we at least agree to accept those patches according to the regular review process?
16:07 gonzalo_: then it should be easy to agree on this change. Remember that large enough changes need to go through the Feature process anyway.
16:08 gonzalo_ silbe, are you talking about  #826 ?
16:09 silbe gonzalo_: my last line was about the accepting "no ceiling" / dog-feeding patches in mainline. Sorry for being unclear.
16:10 erikos silbe: the only thing I can answer you here is: let's decide on a patch per patch basis
16:10 gonzalo_ silbe, i think should follow the same process as any other patch, i don't understand why should be different
16:12 erikos has to fade out
16:12 silbe gonzalo_: that's exactly what I'm asking for. In the past, #826 was explicitly rejected because it didn't affect the XO target user base (yet). All I want is that this isn't (on it's own) a reason to reject a patch.
16:14 So if I post a standards compliance bug fix and it gets reviewed, I want to push it like I push any other bug fix.
16:14 erikos silbe: you mean if it gets accepted
16:14 gonzalo_ silbe, i understand, but then the patch was reviewed .... and rejected
16:15 kartik_perisetla has quit IRC
16:15 cjl Was it rejected purely on the non-targetting to XO users or for other reasons as well?
16:16 erikos anyhow, can we close the discussion here?
16:16 silbe cjl: I haven't been given any other reason. AFAICT there wasn't even a review, we only talked about it during Sugar Camp Paris
16:17 cjl Silbe, then I would request a written review.
16:17 silbe erikos: ok, so do I understand correctly that we disagree on both VI. and VII. (in my mail)?
16:18 quidam silbe: one important think is not to consider staled issues as final, just ping back about it and restart the discussion
16:18 cjl I think you have the right to understand the reason for rejection and to have a civil discussion about it.
16:19 erikos silbe: yeah, I don't agree that we should set this up like this
16:19 silbe: we can discuss patches on a patch per patch basis
16:19 silbe erikos: and there's consensus on requiring only short reviews by senior developers (III. in my mail)?
16:19 erikos silbe: like we do for others
16:19 silbe: senior developers == maintainer?
16:21 silbe erikos: yes
16:21 erikos silbe: a maintainer has to ack a patch, right
16:21 silbe: please use maintainer as wording, senior developer is not something not very well defined
16:22 good
16:22 anything else?
16:22 silbe erikos: we are likely to disagree on the meaning on maintainer, too. But basically my "senior developer" is your "maintainer".
16:23 gonzalo_ senior should  be more than 40 years :)
16:23 erikos silbe: and what differ then? who are the senior developers for the sugar module?
16:24 silbe erikos: only a request to review PW#826 and PW#827 on sugar-devel.
16:25 cjl silbe erikos earlier agreed to review at #826
16:25 silbe erikos: we can discuss that some other time. It's likely to take a few hours to explain what the difference is to me.
16:25 cjl: #827 as well?
16:25 erikos silbe: ok, then I probably don't want to know ;p
16:25 starts countdown
16:25 5
16:25 cjl Let's ask him erikos, will you review #827 also?
16:27 gonzalo_ cjl, are you voluntering to review? :)
16:27 4
16:28 garycmartin 3
16:28 silbe 2
16:28 cjl 1
16:28 erikos #endmeeting
16:28 meeting_ Meeting ended Tue Aug 21 16:28:54 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:28 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-21T14:59:21.html
16:28 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]12-08-21T14:59:21
16:30 Cerlyn no one's reviewed my code yet (I need to get Martin to let me code more often :)
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16:35 garycmartin Anyone left standing hoping for a Design Meeting?
16:37 ajay garycmartin: I was wanting to get the feedback on multi-select :)
16:37 garycmartin Hi ajay :)
16:38 ajay garycmartin: hi Gary. Sorry, I joined late for the dev meeting :-\
16:38 garycmartin ajay: I've been having horrible internet access lately, minimal access, using a mobile connection for this :(
16:39 So no luck testing your recent patches emailed to the mail list.
16:39 ajay garycmartin: ahh ... that's a discomfort these days.. me too suffer frequently with such problems :P
16:39 garycmartin: ok.. no issues ..
16:39 tch___ me too
16:40 gonzalo_ erikos, dirakx, garycmartin, activities with hippo in our last devel image: Infoslicer(already solved in git), Maze and Physics (due to olpcgames/activity.py) and Record!
16:40 I can look at Record
16:40 garycmartin ajay: Yea 4 + days with no voice or internet access. Now the line is up but internet access is horrendous, my one bar or 3G signal is 10 x the speed of my land line!
16:40 dirakx gonzalo_, we are looking at maze
16:41 gonzalo_ dirakx, garycmartin any plan to move Maze and Physics to sugargames?
16:41 tch___ garycmartin, ajay: whenever you guys are ready hehe
16:41 ajay garycmartin: ok..
16:41 tch___: I am ready :D
16:41 garycmartin gonzalo_: Physics, yes, will move to sugargames.
16:42 dirakx gonzalo_, Maze also.
16:42 gonzalo_ great
16:42 garycmartin gonzalo_: The challenge with Maze is that it is relying on the olpcgame collaboration code, that would need to be re-written to port...
16:43 gonzalo_ garycmartin, ouch
16:43 garycmartin Do we have enough here for a Design Meeting?
16:44 tch___: I take it you wanted to talk about your ML patch for the examples support?
16:45 tch___ garycmartin: yeah, that the way I expressed my design also this time :) (better than nothing)
16:45 garycmartin If it's just us three then it's probably better to follow up asynchronously to your email threads.
16:46 tch___ garycmartin: I will also add the proper feature page in the wiki
16:46 garycmartin tch___: any screen shots kicking about? or is it pretty much just activity volume icons in the Journal volumes toolbar?
16:46 tch___ garycmartin: yeah, easy to test ;)
16:46 garycmartin ;)
16:47 tch___ is a packaging level solution
16:47 I will put screenshots in the wiki too
16:47 garycmartin tch___: does it allow write access into a bundle examples directory?
16:48 tch___ garycmartin: right now, yes, but can be disabled.
16:48 garycmartin: I see the utility in being able to do that too,
16:49 garycmartin tch___: and the mass confusion it may cause ;)
16:49 tch___ garycmartin: repackaging i,e
16:49 garycmartin: well, yeah, but it can be removed anyway. Thats what discussion is for :)
16:49 garycmartin tch___: just access into an examples directory, or the whole bundle directory?
16:49 tch___ garycmartin: only exaples
16:50 is out of activity developers control, is a convention
16:51 garycmartin tch___: pity, would make a great sneaky dev way to hack on activity code (if polished and tuned a little more) ;)
16:51 tch___ garycmartin: well, its open source :) haha
16:51 garycmartin: we can always make it betetr
16:52 garycmartin: what we should do now is decide whether the design is acceptable, is the simplest thing I could do
16:52 garycmartin: less effort, greater benefit
16:53 garycmartin tch___: what happens if I have two activity instances open, still only one examples volume right?
16:54 tch___ garycmartin: less effort != no love
16:54 garycmartin: yeah, it considers these cases
16:54 garycmartin: only one will be shown
16:55 garycmartin tch___: does it have a palette like other volumes, e.g. a Remove item?
16:55 tch___ garycmartin: no, it disappears when the last instance is closed
16:56 garycmartin: think it would be better that way?
16:56 garycmartin tch___: If you hover over it there's no textual hints?
16:56 tch___ garycmartin: right now, only the activity name
17:00 garycmartin, ajay: I take notes on whatever you think is worth changing
17:00 garycmartin tch___: I'll try and give it a test, but my gut feeling is that we are really stretching a metaphor here and it's a non obvious/confusing thing for kids. Do you think Walter would drop the TA collections/examples in Activity feature and rely on this if it landed?
17:02 tch___: Same for the example games in Memorize.
17:02 tch___ garycmartin: well, we show external volumes and documents folder, is not that different... but I get what you say. :)
17:03 garycmartin: about walter's opinion, I don't know, still didn't received his feedback
17:04 bernie tch___: you've got way too many underscores, man!
17:04 :-)
17:04 tch___ bernie: I do what I can :(
17:05 bernie is now known as bernie_____
17:05 garycmartin tch___: The Journal volumes bar was only meant to be there when external volumes are added. Feature creep then put the Document folder in there (as Walter wanted a place exposed in the filesystem for moving files in/out of the Journal). I notice DX have also added a shared volume there as well. So much for only exposing the volumes bar when needed… ;)
17:05 bernie_____ fuck it, i'm gonna do 5 underscores!
17:06 tch___ garycmartin: these folders are also accessible through objectchoosers
17:06 garycmartin bernie_____: _ it's like extra sergeant stripes :)
17:06 tch___ bernie_____: lol...
17:08 garycmartin tch___: accessible through objectchoosers, good point, yes that's a good thing I think.
17:08 tch___ garycmartin: great, it actually does both things we proposed initially,
17:08 garycmartin: but is the same cause
17:10 garycmartin tch___: thinks it should be read only, but that'll require an error dialogue if you try and drag something in from the Journal (or I guess it could not accept drag and drop, and exclude its self from the various Copy to -> … tools/menues).
17:11 tch___ garycmartin: ack.
17:12 gonzalo_ tch___, i want check if i understood the code: you are adding the examples directory to any activity? i mean if TurtleArt have examples, I will se the button when open the ObjectChooser in Paint?
17:12 garycmartin tch___: re: read only… with Write access folks may start to use them like folders, stashing their TA projects in TA, then when the upgrade at some point… no more projects.
17:13 tch___ garycmartin: Yes. But, only for the activities that are opened.
17:14 gonzalo_ tch___, can you reply?  ^^
17:14 tch___ ops, sorry, my last message was for you gonzalo_
17:15 gonzalo_ tch___, i do not agree with this implementation. examples directory is private of every activity
17:15 tch___, i think you should add a parameter to ObjectChooser call and open that directory
17:16 tch___ gonzalo_: under that definition it would not make sense to shown them in the journal either, ;/
17:16 gonzalo_ tch___, right, why show them in the journal?
17:16 tch___ gonzalo_: I could be a option, yes... sadly for what I have seen it would require to hack around many places
17:16 garycmartin gonzalo_: I think that is where I am as well, 'examples should be private to the activity'.
17:17 gonzalo_ tch___, i know, you will need modify sugar and sugar-toolkit
17:17 bernie_____ tch___, garycmartin: http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3qkq5e/
17:18 tch___ gonzalo_, garycmartin: I see the value in showing them like that, copying examples directly to the journal i.e, but is a design issue. Lets decide.
17:18 garycmartin bernie_____: :)
17:18 tch___ bernie_____: hahah
17:19 gonzalo_ tch___, i think should be confuse. you need open your activity, a button will appear in the journal, go to the journal, copy the example.....
17:20 tch___, in the other case, you open a example, and will be copied when you finish
17:20 tch___, i think is a cleaner workflow
17:21 tch___ the actual flow, does both things
17:21 gonzalo_ garycmartin, i am talking too much in the design meeting, but is a activities issue too :)
17:21 tch___ gonzalo_: is good, :)
17:23 gonzalo_ tch___, but if you think all the places you will need modify to make this journal view read only, not add the directory to the combos and so, will see my proposal is easier
17:23 garycmartin gonzalo_: yes, and if you open your activity, go to the journal, click the activity volume, click the example, you'll end up with two instances of the activity. One blank one you launched first, and the one with the example you were really after. This then makes activity authors want to add "Open file" dialogues to their activities, mentioning no names *whisperswalter* ;)
17:24 gonzalo_ garycmartin, +1
17:24 tch___ well, as you can see the current implementation does everything (more than it should actually)
17:24 So, what you guys suggest is to only show the example folder on the objechooser
17:24 ?
17:25 garycmartin tch___: yes, and only for that activity.
17:25 tch___ garycmartin: perfect.
17:25 gonzalo_ tch___, yes, and specify it as a optional parameter in ObjectChooser call
17:25 tch___, we know you can! :)
17:25 tincho is back!
17:25 garycmartin :)
17:25 Cerlyn has left #sugar-meeting
17:26 tch___ gonzalo_: ;)
17:28 bernie_____ is now known as bernie
17:28 garycmartin tch___: Walter can then use that call inside TA to bring up his example using the ObjectChooser, rather than the rather unpleasant Gnome file open dialogue.
17:28 tch___ gonzalo_, garycmartin: the option should be to allow showing this folder by default? I just want to keep this as a packaging level solution,
17:29 gonzalo_ tch___, i am not sure about that
17:29 tch___ I don't want all activities developers to change their code to have this working. That way even deployments can just package their versions
17:29 cjl has quit IRC
17:30 garycmartin tch___: deployments will need custom activity bundles with added example content right?
17:30 tch___ garycmartin: yep, thats all
17:30 garycmartin: no need for them to hack
17:33 garycmartin: well, now that I think, not showing this on the journal will require to hack some activities anyway ;/
17:33 garycmartin tch___: so could ObjectChooser check to see if an examples directory exists, and only then show the extra icon? I guess the extra ObjectChooser call would be for authors who want to default into that examples folder view. This is also only of nay use for activities that allow invoking the ObjectChooser to open a Journal Object. I can only think of TA, Read, ImageViewer….. hmmm that's about all I've got. Examples wouldn't work anywhere else
17:33 without activity hacking.
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17:34 tch___ garycmartin: Yeah, checking for examples folder is a requirement
17:36 garycmartin tch___: OK, new random thought. What if bundle examples were exposed through the home view palettes, like a Start new with example -> … option?
17:37 tch___ garycmartin: it would limit the number of examples in the practise, to avoid visual spawm
17:38 garycmartin tch___: how many examples were you thinking of including?
17:38 erikos garycmartin: hey I am back, sorry for being late on the show :/
17:39 garycmartin erikos: Hey, well it's an unofficial design chat more than a meeting :)
17:39 tch___ garycmartin: me none, hehe, guess it depends completely on developers or deployments
17:39 erikos garycmartin: ahh, ok - because you did not announce it, I see
17:40 garycmartin erikos: Yes, I didn't have internet access at the time, and now it's 'fixed' it's not really reliable enough (I'm having trouble just downloading regular email).
17:40 erikos garycmartin: ohh, ok :/
17:40 stops sending design discussion mails then
17:40 garycmartin erikos: :P
17:41 erikos: no don't stop, most fun I've had all week! ;)
17:41 erikos garycmartin: any of the items you want to talk about sync now?
17:42 garycmartin: (like the display evice, or the error alert?)
17:42 tch___ garycmartin: do we continue on ml?
17:42 garycmartin erikos: I think I replied to most (just switching back on my email client to catch up, fingers crossed irc holds up!)
17:43 tch___: yes happy to continue on the mail list thread you'd started.
17:45 erikos: So with the screenshot frame device, how do you avoid getting a screenshot with the frame and palette in?
17:45 erikos looks on the ml
17:46 garycmartin: just about to reply there ;p
17:46 garycmartin :)
17:46 erikos copies
17:46 "Or we even open a new window with options how you want to take the screenshot (including only taking smaller parts of the screen)."
17:48 garycmartin erikos: that new window will still be in the way though...
17:49 erikos gets a screenshot
17:49 garycmartin erikos: OT, oh I dumped most of my maliit mockups at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/U[…]arycmartin/Maliit (it's roughly most refined at the top, original at the bottom)
17:50 erikos garycmartin: hmm, hard to get a screenshot of the screenshot app :/
17:51 (gnome-screenshot -i) in GNOME
17:51 garycmartin erikos: :)
17:51 erikos garycmartin: about the window, that will go away after you clicked on it
17:52 garycmartin erikos: I have a bit of python kicking around somewhere, it was the only way to get screen grabs of the Welcome first boot UI, and the Maliit OSK.
17:52 erikos garycmartin: (otherwise the delay option sounds ok)
17:52 garycmartin: ok
17:53 garycmartin: oh, great the maliit mockups, I think I never followed up on those
17:53 garycmartin erikos: I frequently need to take a shot of an open menu or palette, a delay option seems like the only way to get those types of shots.
17:53 (other than a physical button somewhere)
17:54 erikos garycmartin: right, palettes are tricky in that regard indeed
17:54 garycmartin: you are right
17:55 garycmartin erikos: I have a cleaned up module-keyboard.svg to replace the old one as well (will post it to the ML as a proposal).
17:55 erikos physical button, maybe one of the game buttons ;p
17:55 garycmartin erikos: or long hold of the rotate key?
17:57 erikos garycmartin: yeah, for example something like this
17:57 garycmartin: would be available in ebook-mode as well
17:57 garycmartin yep
17:57 erikos is OLPC specific, though
17:58 ideally we would have something in the UI
17:58 garycmartin Android and iOS didn't manage much better ;)
17:58 erikos yes, which is bad, I had to google it up how to do it
17:59 garycmartin erikos: Just suggesting it's a more complicated issue than would first appear.
17:59 erikos garycmartin: absolutely agreed
18:00 garycmartin erikos: I've been very good and not suggested we implement a new multi touch gesture ;)
18:02 erikos garycmartin: actually, if you yum install 'gnome-screenshot' on the XO you can use it there
18:02 garycmartin: just managed to get a screenshot of the OSK and one of a Palette
18:02 maybe something, worth documenting
18:03 garycmartin is gnome-screenshot a GUI or terminal command?
18:03 erikos if you run it with the '-i' option it is a GUI
18:03 I looked once at the code, it basically has everything we would need as well
18:05 garycmartin erikos: I did try it at one point for the Welcome view but it wasn't happy (env vars etc I think). Will take a look again.
18:05 erikos yeah, in the welcome screen it might be a different thing
18:07 not too bad, not too bad...
18:14 garycmartin: ok, replied on the mail, so it does not get lost
18:14 garycmartin: I think I like opening a window with a dialog about options
18:14 garycmartin: does not sound too bad to me
18:14 garycmartin erikos: OK, just hunting down my emergency screenshot code :)
18:15 erikos: Haah, a pop up dialogue?
18:16 erikos garycmartin: http://www.google.de/imgres?hl[…]&vpy=535&dur=2457
18:16 &hovh=208&hovw=242&tx=139&ty=127&sig=11783​7346323270795652&page=1&tbnh=146&tbnw=170&​start=0&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:27,s:0,i:171
18:16 garycmartin: hope this link works for you ;p
18:17 garycmartin: yeah, this is one case, where it might be a good option
18:17 garycmartin: http://mymediasystem.net/wp/20[…]--interactive.png
18:17 garycmartin: this link is better ^
18:17 garycmartin it still waiting for yum install to download the database :\
18:18 erikos eeeh
18:19 garycmartin: while you are downloading...;p
18:20 garycmartin just got it :)
18:20 erikos Erase
18:20 Do you want to permanently erase <entry name>?      ((x) Cancel  ((?) Erase)
18:20 the entry name in " " ?
18:20 at least I have seen that in iOS
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18:20 erikos (garageband erase of song afair)
18:21 garycmartin: I think this reads well
18:26 garycmartin Sure, I'm good with " " around the entry name, it's the same on Mountain Lion (just tested). Will need to make sure we are consistent.
18:36 erikos garycmartin: ok
18:37 garycmartin: I will cc Chris to ask if it is ok we change the string for the activities as well
18:40 garycmartin: what should we do with the alert for duplicate?
18:41 garycmartin: I think the timeout alert would be ok
18:41 garycmartin: (only in the detail view of course)
18:43 garycmartin erikos: Yes just reading the reply from silbe. It provide feedback for the action (the whole desire for duplicate in details view), but it's a little pointless for the option to switch, kind'a, would you like to see the identical duplicate or stay here.
18:44 erikos garycmartin: yeah, I think I would like to see it handled with an animation
18:45 garycmartin: an icon moving towards the Journal icon at the bottom or similar
18:46 garycmartin: maybe we wait until we have good support for animations?
18:46 I don't feel too strong on this one to push for it myself ;p
18:46 (meaning, the alert that notifies about the duplication)
18:48 garycmartin erikos: Much as I want animations :) Lets keep it simple. We're just after feedback that the Duplicate toolbutton does something, this can either be an alert before, or and alert on completion. So I guess it's just down to wording and what the "OK" button says.
18:49 …and it's only in the Detail view, which is unfortunately a fairly dusty corner of the UI still.
18:49 erikos garycmartin: ok, if you have good wording ;p
18:50 garycmartin ;P
18:50 erikos <<Duplicated entry "". [OK]>> ?
18:51 (ok is a timeout)
18:54 garycmartin erikos: hmmmm, just thinking, what if Duplicate fails (say out of disk space, or you try it on a read only volume). If the alert is after the event we need to be smart about the message (e.g. don't tell the user lies).
18:56 erikos cries
19:00 garycmartin erikos: an alert before the action (confirmation) avoids needing to deal with an error (at least in this patch), I assume (probably incorrectly) that some other error is generated on failure?
19:01 erikos garycmartin: would have to look if a duplicate error would occur
19:01 garycmartin: but asking if you want to duplicate, is a bit..overnany-like
19:01 garycmartin: uff ;p
19:03 garycmartin erikos: agreed, I was just trying to aim for cheapest feedback for these two buttons. So much for that idea!
19:03 erikos garycmartin: :)
19:09 garycmartin erikos: OK, silly (?) idea… what about a palette that opens, no primary action. The same way the Copy to button works?
19:11 remembers how you wanted the duplicate function in the Copy to feature palette/menue
19:11 erikos: We'd not need this discussion if it was in there! ;)
19:15 erikos garycmartin: :))
19:15 garycmartin: we can still move it in there ;p
19:15 garycmartin :P
19:16 erikos (I sent you a screenshot of the erase alert with the new wording)
19:17 garycmartin: would be an option, I guess, having it no primary action
19:18 so, not 100% convinced neither
19:18 garycmartin ;)
19:20 Do you dislike it more than a confirmation dialogue?
19:20 erikos no, not really
19:21 garycmartin: I have to run, sorry
19:21 garycmartin NP, it's very late.
19:22 Enjoy the rest of your evening, and thanks for all the patches et al!
19:23 erikos thanks
19:23 replied on the thread, so we can move forward ;p
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