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14:13 | mtd | meeting? |
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14:49 | erikos <erikos!~erikos![]() |
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14:59 | erikos | #startmeeting |
14:59 | meeting_ | Meeting started Tue Aug 21 14:59:21 2012 UTC. The chair is erikos. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
14:59 | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting | |
14:59 | erikos | who is around for the dev meting? |
14:59 | humitos | erikos: me |
14:59 | erikos | hi |
15:01 | pflores | in background |
15:02 | garycmartin | but only just hanging on to network! |
15:03 | erikos | garycmartin: ok ;p |
15:03 | Agenda: | |
15:03 | - introducing new contributors | |
15:04 | - 0.98 Feature proposal deadline | |
15:04 | - follow up the shell port: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3/Shell (manuq) | |
15:04 | - follow up the touch support in the shell: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]Touch/Development (erikos) | |
15:04 | - follow up the activities port, touch addition (including gestures), releasing of new activities (gonzalo) | |
15:04 | - review process and code acceptance policy (silbe) | |
15:04 | gonzalo_ | hello |
15:05 | erikos | humitos: I don't think vmeta is a Sugar subject in the first place |
15:05 | humitos: gonzalo_ or is it? | |
15:05 | humitos | erikos: ok, I wasn't sure... thanks |
15:06 | erikos | ok, let's start then |
15:06 | gonzalo_ | erikos, no erikos, wrong topic |
15:06 | erikos | #topic: 0.98 Feature proposal deadline |
15:06 | mtd | erikos: (hi, here) |
15:07 | lurks | |
15:07 | erikos | hey mtd, nice to see you! |
15:07 | http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0[…]/Roadmap#Schedule | |
15:07 | http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.98/Feature_List | |
15:08 | mtd | erikos: same here :) |
15:08 | erikos | if you work on a Feature for 0.98, and it should be there ^ |
15:08 | cjl | mumbles something indistinct and slouches in the back of the room |
15:08 | erikos | deadline was yesterday, so you better tell that now |
15:09 | ajay: from your reading, the Journal multi-select one should be there, right? | |
15:09 | s/reading/mails | |
15:10 | ok, questions about that? | |
15:10 | dirakx <dirakx!~rafael![]() |
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15:10 | erikos | ok, next item then |
15:10 | #topic follow up the shell port: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3/Shell (manuq) | |
15:11 | manuq: please :) | |
15:11 | manuq | so, shell port |
15:11 | in libxklavier the API we needed was added, I still have to test it | |
15:11 | oh, as always the link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3/Shell | |
15:11 | erikos | great work |
15:11 | manuq | dnarvaez found the faulty import that was crashing sugar, thanks dnarvaez! |
15:12 | erikos | yeah, thanks daniel! |
15:12 | manuq | he also ported the speech extension to introspectable gstreamer :) |
15:12 | erikos | yeah ;p |
15:12 | manuq: we should upstream the patches from the toolkit-gtk3-porting repo | |
15:12 | manuq: so we don't have to deal with two repos | |
15:13 | manuq | erikos: sure |
15:13 | Ariel_Calzada <Ariel_Calzada!~aricalso![]() |
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15:13 | erikos | manuq: I will have a look at the items |
15:13 | manuq: and then, the layout in the Views, we should check | |
15:13 | manuq | erikos: thanks |
15:13 | erikos | manuq: how about, I start with this? |
15:13 | manuq | erikos: very good, go on |
15:14 | quidam | erikos: ajay seems to be away, but yes, we want that feature for 0.98 :) |
15:14 | manuq | hey quidam |
15:14 | gonzalo_ | quidam, and prxy configuration? |
15:14 | garycmartin | quidam: and the proxy support? |
15:14 | erikos | seen that there are quite some rough edges today and feels we have to invest |
15:14 | gonzalo_ | garycmartin, :) |
15:14 | quidam | and the 3g database |
15:14 | garycmartin | gonzalo_: ;) |
15:15 | erikos | quidam: the important part for those features would be that silbe helps with the review process |
15:15 | quidam | erikos: +1 |
15:16 | erikos | quidam: as Manuel and myself are full into touch and shell port |
15:16 | quidam | erikos: he asked in sugar-devel about the review process |
15:16 | erikos | quidam: sure, we discussed that, I just want to make clear the resources |
15:17 | quidam: can not hurt to repeat from time to time | |
15:17 | quidam: and you guys should plan in time to port it to GTK+3 as well | |
15:18 | quidam | erikos: +1 to all |
15:18 | I'll ask him to pitch in | |
15:18 | erikos | quidam: great |
15:18 | quidam: thanks | |
15:19 | soooo, any more 0.98 feature topics/questions? | |
15:19 | gonzalo_ | quidam, proxy support was almost ready 6 months ago, should be nice if you push it this time |
15:20 | quidam | erikos: maybe a dumb question since I lack info (wish silbe and ajay were here) |
15:20 | but what about the 3g database feature? | |
15:20 | erikos | gonzalo_: yes, I replied on the thread with a few questions for Sascha |
15:20 | cjl | What other AC developed dx3 features will be landing in 0.98? |
15:21 | erikos | quidam: can you elaborate? |
15:21 | gonzalo_ | quidam, 3g database was ok from the point of view of design, need code review |
15:21 | quidam | gonzalo_: so we can add it to the features list? |
15:21 | gonzalo_ | quidam, we agreed do internal review before sending patches to sugar mailing list |
15:22 | cjl | I ask primarily about the L10n that will be moving from the dx3-glu94 diff PO into Glucose. |
15:22 | silbe <silbe!~quassel![]() |
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15:22 | gonzalo_ | quidam, yes |
15:23 | quidam, you should add it to the list http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]/Database_Support | |
15:23 | erikos | gonzalo_: quidam and please update the owner accordingly, I think both owners are not around anymore ;p |
15:24 | cjl: we are just trying to figure it out | |
15:25 | quidam | so AC features would be 3g database, proxy conf, multiselect and 1-to-n |
15:25 | gonzalo_ | quidam, by the way, i think ajay should owner the multi select feature, i only worked in the initial design |
15:25 | erikos | quidam: 1-to-n? |
15:25 | quidam | transfer to many |
15:26 | cjl | erikos ok, as we'd discussed before, there is very little string churn in Glucose this cycle, so I am pushing activity L10n, if several of the Ui string containing features will be landing, I may also push dx3-glu94 diff PO L10n as a "pre-L10n" step for Sugar 0.98 |
15:26 | quidam | but I'm sure I'm missing something here, as it is owned by you |
15:26 | erikos | quidam: that has not been through design review nor through code review |
15:26 | dirakx | erikos, +1 those feature pages are outdated. |
15:26 | erikos | quidam: please keep it reasonable |
15:26 | quidam: we have a tight, tight schedule | |
15:27 | quidam | erikos: sure, I'm discussing on behalf of missing devels today, so I lack details |
15:27 | erikos | quidam: ok, maybe best to follow up by mail |
15:27 | cjl | erikos, it is worth noting that th4ese features have been in th efield for some time, they are not untested. |
15:28 | dirakx | erikos, quidam cjl +1 it's better to follow by email. ;). |
15:28 | silbe | caught up with the backlog (network routing issue prevented connection to IRC servers) |
15:29 | cjl | dirakx: sure |
15:29 | erikos | cjl: gettings things upstream takes time, including the port to GTK+3, so no matter if people used it in the field |
15:30 | cjl | erikos: yes |
15:30 | erikos | anyhow, something AC has to worry about in the first place, and then me schedule wise ;p |
15:30 | cjl | I'm jsut trying to understand best application of L10n resources in the same way :-) |
15:31 | erikos | silbe: so we were saying about the AC features, that you should coordinate, review them in the first place |
15:31 | silbe: (as I understand from the AC structure) | |
15:32 | cjl: yeah, the decision what is worked on will be announced soon, then it is easier to see which strings changes | |
15:33 | silbe: here now? or do you better want to reply async? | |
15:34 | ok, let's move maybe on... | |
15:34 | silbe | erikos: yeah, the new approach to upstream reviews will enable me to spend more time on internal reviews. |
15:34 | quidam | good :) |
15:35 | erikos | silbe: good, and yo know the process and deadlines, so I leave the meat for those features in your hands |
15:35 | silbe | or rather to keep the reviews internal at all - before everything was supposed to go upstream right away, so we could have a discussion early on about what's acceptable and what isn't. |
15:36 | quidam | silbe: #define internal |
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15:36 | silbe | quidam: not on sugar-devel |
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15:37 | erikos | manuq: I guess, we two guys will just keep on hacking on the shell port with Daniel |
15:37 | manuq | erikos: great |
15:37 | erikos | manuq: and keep on reporting to the list, so people can join if possible |
15:37 | mtd: if you look for fun things to do, let me know :)) | |
15:37 | quidam | silbe: I like that to happen in the open, you can go at your own pace, but allowing others to comment |
15:38 | tch___ <tch___!~tch![]() |
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15:39 | erikos | ok, next item |
15:39 | quidam: silbe: I guess you can discuss what to do internally first ;p | |
15:39 | #topic: follow up the touch support in the shell: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]/Touch/Developmen | |
15:40 | http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]Touch/Development | |
15:40 | this goes at high speed, I have posted patches and design discussions to the ml | |
15:40 | merged a few improvements already | |
15:40 | questions/comments here? | |
15:41 | cjl | erikos, How much of this needs to land before touch work in activities can proceed? |
15:41 | Cerlyn | erikos: When should formal testing of touch start? |
15:42 | erikos | cjl: the gesture support needs to land first |
15:43 | Cerlyn: I will do snapshot builds at those dates http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.98/Roadmap | |
15:45 | #topic - follow up the activities port, touch addition (including gestures), releasing of new activities (gonzalo) | |
15:45 | gonzalo_: please :) | |
15:46 | gonzalo_ | erikos, a important topic is gestures, needed in a few activities |
15:46 | erikos | gonzalo_: yes, Carlos will help us there, so this is on it's way |
15:46 | gonzalo_ | we agreed use code from garnacho proposal to gtk project |
15:46 | erikos | yes |
15:47 | gonzalo_ | then, activity developers needing this should wait a little |
15:47 | there are a list of the proposed gestures in the mail too | |
15:48 | dirakx, did you released new gtk3 activities? garycmartin ? | |
15:48 | anybody else? | |
15:48 | dirakx | gonzalo_, not new ones, but in process for this week. |
15:48 | gonzalo_ | dirakx, great! |
15:48 | garycmartin | I've started in Physics, but keep getting distracted with other design tasks. |
15:48 | cjl | erikos If I were to try to reel in an AbiWord dev to work on adding touch to Write/AbiWord do you have a guesstimate of the right timeline for them to start work (given that gestures in Sugar are needed first)? |
15:49 | gonzalo_ | cjl, we are working with carlos garnacho already in this topic, please communicate with us |
15:49 | cjl | ok |
15:51 | erikos | gonzalo_: ok, thanks for keeping it up, any more issues you want to raise? |
15:51 | gonzalo_: do you need specific help with something? | |
15:51 | gonzalo_ | garycmartin, any news about clock (cairo port/hands and so) |
15:51 | erikos | gonzalo_: (ohh btw, I grepped today the actiivties on the latest XO build, and many activities do still use hippo) |
15:52 | garycmartin | gonzalo_: sorry haven't touched it since we last spoke. |
15:52 | erikos | gonzalo_: I guess for the next release we cannot drop the dependency, right? |
15:52 | gonzalo_ | erikos, yes? |
15:52 | erikos | gonzalo_: yep |
15:52 | gonzalo_ | erikos, hmm, will check but we should be almost ready |
15:53 | dirakx | gonzalo_, garycmartin we will need a list of those activities ;), to tackle. |
15:54 | gonzalo_ | dirakx, starting xo with new image to do the grep |
15:54 | erikos | gonzalo_: ok, thanks |
15:54 | dirakx | gonzalo_, yep. |
15:54 | gonzalo_ | erikos, i do not have other activities topics, anybody else? |
15:55 | erikos | gonzalo_: (was probably in the 12.1.0 build == older versions) |
15:55 | gonzalo_: thanks | |
15:55 | #topic: review process and code acceptance policy (silbe) | |
15:55 | silbe: please :) | |
15:56 | silbe | I assume by now everyone had time to read and reflect on my mail, so we decide on the changes? |
15:57 | erikos | silbe: to me, the outcome of this mail is the difference between the in-depth and short-review |
15:58 | ajay | erikos, quidam: gonzalo_: oops.. sorry.. just came in. Could we add on the multi-select status-update discussion please? :P |
15:58 | silbe | as mentioned in the mail, "The two major changes are making in-depth reviews by senior developers |
15:58 | optional and non-blocking (II.) as well as accepting "no ceiling" | |
15:58 | (VI.) and standards compliance (VII.) patches." | |
15:58 | (sorry for the extra line breaks) | |
15:59 | erikos | silbe: those are out of this discussion, imho |
15:59 | silbe: they can be goals, but nothing we need to decide on | |
15:59 | silbe: if a patch makes sense, we get it in | |
15:59 | but that should be on a patch per patch basis | |
16:00 | silbe | I think requiring only short reviews in already practice by now, so the only remaining controversial part is about standards compliance and "no ceiling" patches |
16:00 | gonzalo_ | yeah, "no ceiling" is a difuse category |
16:00 | silbe | s/in/is/ |
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16:01 | gonzalo_ | "no ceiling" probably will be defined different by walter and you :) |
16:01 | erikos | hehe |
16:01 | manuq <manuq!~manuq![]() |
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16:02 | gonzalo_ | for walter means all sugar should be turtle art, of course :) |
16:02 | silbe | if it helps, the exact wording in my mail was "Accept patches into mainline that are likely to increase the number of contributors using Sugar themselves (A) or to increase their usage of Sugar, even if the patch doesn't directly benefit the XO target user base. It should not have a negative impact on the XO target user base, of course." |
16:04 | erikos | silbe: let's decide when there is a patch |
16:04 | gonzalo_ | silbe, probably apply the same than before, patch by patch |
16:04 | erikos | silbe: I am happy to look at http://patchwork.sugarlabs.org/patch/826/ for example |
16:05 | but I don't decide on something generic like this | |
16:05 | this can only be a high levelgoal | |
16:05 | silbe | The question basically is whether the target audience of Sugar should be restricted to that of the XO (i.e. school children) or whether we want to be inclusive enough to allow people using Sugar to upstream their patches. |
16:06 | kartik_perisetla <kartik_perisetla!~yaaic![]() |
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16:07 | gonzalo_ | certainly more dogfood will be good, we have discussed add git to the olpc images in fact |
16:07 | silbe | erikos: PW#826 is not just about "no ceiling", but also about standards compliance. Can we at least agree to accept those patches according to the regular review process? |
16:07 | gonzalo_: then it should be easy to agree on this change. Remember that large enough changes need to go through the Feature process anyway. | |
16:08 | gonzalo_ | silbe, are you talking about #826 ? |
16:09 | silbe | gonzalo_: my last line was about the accepting "no ceiling" / dog-feeding patches in mainline. Sorry for being unclear. |
16:10 | erikos | silbe: the only thing I can answer you here is: let's decide on a patch per patch basis |
16:10 | gonzalo_ | silbe, i think should follow the same process as any other patch, i don't understand why should be different |
16:12 | erikos | has to fade out |
16:12 | silbe | gonzalo_: that's exactly what I'm asking for. In the past, #826 was explicitly rejected because it didn't affect the XO target user base (yet). All I want is that this isn't (on it's own) a reason to reject a patch. |
16:14 | So if I post a standards compliance bug fix and it gets reviewed, I want to push it like I push any other bug fix. | |
16:14 | erikos | silbe: you mean if it gets accepted |
16:14 | gonzalo_ | silbe, i understand, but then the patch was reviewed .... and rejected |
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16:15 | cjl | Was it rejected purely on the non-targetting to XO users or for other reasons as well? |
16:16 | erikos | anyhow, can we close the discussion here? |
16:16 | silbe | cjl: I haven't been given any other reason. AFAICT there wasn't even a review, we only talked about it during Sugar Camp Paris |
16:17 | cjl | Silbe, then I would request a written review. |
16:17 | silbe | erikos: ok, so do I understand correctly that we disagree on both VI. and VII. (in my mail)? |
16:18 | quidam | silbe: one important think is not to consider staled issues as final, just ping back about it and restart the discussion |
16:18 | cjl | I think you have the right to understand the reason for rejection and to have a civil discussion about it. |
16:19 | erikos | silbe: yeah, I don't agree that we should set this up like this |
16:19 | silbe: we can discuss patches on a patch per patch basis | |
16:19 | silbe | erikos: and there's consensus on requiring only short reviews by senior developers (III. in my mail)? |
16:19 | erikos | silbe: like we do for others |
16:19 | silbe: senior developers == maintainer? | |
16:21 | silbe | erikos: yes |
16:21 | erikos | silbe: a maintainer has to ack a patch, right |
16:21 | silbe: please use maintainer as wording, senior developer is not something not very well defined | |
16:22 | good | |
16:22 | anything else? | |
16:22 | silbe | erikos: we are likely to disagree on the meaning on maintainer, too. But basically my "senior developer" is your "maintainer". |
16:23 | gonzalo_ | senior should be more than 40 years :) |
16:23 | erikos | silbe: and what differ then? who are the senior developers for the sugar module? |
16:24 | silbe | erikos: only a request to review PW#826 and PW#827 on sugar-devel. |
16:25 | cjl | silbe erikos earlier agreed to review at #826 |
16:25 | silbe | erikos: we can discuss that some other time. It's likely to take a few hours to explain what the difference is to me. |
16:25 | cjl: #827 as well? | |
16:25 | erikos | silbe: ok, then I probably don't want to know ;p |
16:25 | starts countdown | |
16:25 | 5 | |
16:25 | cjl | Let's ask him erikos, will you review #827 also? |
16:27 | gonzalo_ | cjl, are you voluntering to review? :) |
16:27 | 4 | |
16:28 | garycmartin | 3 |
16:28 | silbe | 2 |
16:28 | cjl | 1 |
16:28 | erikos | #endmeeting |
16:28 | meeting_ | Meeting ended Tue Aug 21 16:28:54 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
16:28 | Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-21T14:59:21.html | |
16:28 | Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]12-08-21T14:59:21 | |
16:30 | Cerlyn | no one's reviewed my code yet (I need to get Martin to let me code more often :) |
16:32 | garycmartin has quit IRC | |
16:33 | garycmartin <garycmartin!~garycmart![]() |
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16:33 | silbe has quit IRC | |
16:35 | garycmartin | Anyone left standing hoping for a Design Meeting? |
16:37 | ajay | garycmartin: I was wanting to get the feedback on multi-select :) |
16:37 | garycmartin | Hi ajay :) |
16:38 | ajay | garycmartin: hi Gary. Sorry, I joined late for the dev meeting :-\ |
16:38 | garycmartin | ajay: I've been having horrible internet access lately, minimal access, using a mobile connection for this :( |
16:39 | So no luck testing your recent patches emailed to the mail list. | |
16:39 | ajay | garycmartin: ahh ... that's a discomfort these days.. me too suffer frequently with such problems :P |
16:39 | garycmartin: ok.. no issues .. | |
16:39 | tch___ | me too |
16:40 | gonzalo_ | erikos, dirakx, garycmartin, activities with hippo in our last devel image: Infoslicer(already solved in git), Maze and Physics (due to olpcgames/activity.py) and Record! |
16:40 | I can look at Record | |
16:40 | garycmartin | ajay: Yea 4 + days with no voice or internet access. Now the line is up but internet access is horrendous, my one bar or 3G signal is 10 x the speed of my land line! |
16:40 | dirakx | gonzalo_, we are looking at maze |
16:41 | gonzalo_ | dirakx, garycmartin any plan to move Maze and Physics to sugargames? |
16:41 | tch___ | garycmartin, ajay: whenever you guys are ready hehe |
16:41 | ajay | garycmartin: ok.. |
16:41 | tch___: I am ready :D | |
16:41 | garycmartin | gonzalo_: Physics, yes, will move to sugargames. |
16:42 | dirakx | gonzalo_, Maze also. |
16:42 | gonzalo_ | great |
16:42 | garycmartin | gonzalo_: The challenge with Maze is that it is relying on the olpcgame collaboration code, that would need to be re-written to port... |
16:43 | gonzalo_ | garycmartin, ouch |
16:43 | garycmartin | Do we have enough here for a Design Meeting? |
16:44 | tch___: I take it you wanted to talk about your ML patch for the examples support? | |
16:45 | tch___ | garycmartin: yeah, that the way I expressed my design also this time :) (better than nothing) |
16:45 | garycmartin | If it's just us three then it's probably better to follow up asynchronously to your email threads. |
16:46 | tch___ | garycmartin: I will also add the proper feature page in the wiki |
16:46 | garycmartin | tch___: any screen shots kicking about? or is it pretty much just activity volume icons in the Journal volumes toolbar? |
16:46 | tch___ | garycmartin: yeah, easy to test ;) |
16:46 | garycmartin | ;) |
16:47 | tch___ | is a packaging level solution |
16:47 | I will put screenshots in the wiki too | |
16:47 | garycmartin | tch___: does it allow write access into a bundle examples directory? |
16:48 | tch___ | garycmartin: right now, yes, but can be disabled. |
16:48 | garycmartin: I see the utility in being able to do that too, | |
16:49 | garycmartin | tch___: and the mass confusion it may cause ;) |
16:49 | tch___ | garycmartin: repackaging i,e |
16:49 | garycmartin: well, yeah, but it can be removed anyway. Thats what discussion is for :) | |
16:49 | garycmartin | tch___: just access into an examples directory, or the whole bundle directory? |
16:49 | tch___ | garycmartin: only exaples |
16:50 | is out of activity developers control, is a convention | |
16:51 | garycmartin | tch___: pity, would make a great sneaky dev way to hack on activity code (if polished and tuned a little more) ;) |
16:51 | tch___ | garycmartin: well, its open source :) haha |
16:51 | garycmartin: we can always make it betetr | |
16:52 | garycmartin: what we should do now is decide whether the design is acceptable, is the simplest thing I could do | |
16:52 | garycmartin: less effort, greater benefit | |
16:53 | garycmartin | tch___: what happens if I have two activity instances open, still only one examples volume right? |
16:54 | tch___ | garycmartin: less effort != no love |
16:54 | garycmartin: yeah, it considers these cases | |
16:54 | garycmartin: only one will be shown | |
16:55 | garycmartin | tch___: does it have a palette like other volumes, e.g. a Remove item? |
16:55 | tch___ | garycmartin: no, it disappears when the last instance is closed |
16:56 | garycmartin: think it would be better that way? | |
16:56 | garycmartin | tch___: If you hover over it there's no textual hints? |
16:56 | tch___ | garycmartin: right now, only the activity name |
17:00 | garycmartin, ajay: I take notes on whatever you think is worth changing | |
17:00 | garycmartin | tch___: I'll try and give it a test, but my gut feeling is that we are really stretching a metaphor here and it's a non obvious/confusing thing for kids. Do you think Walter would drop the TA collections/examples in Activity feature and rely on this if it landed? |
17:02 | tch___: Same for the example games in Memorize. | |
17:02 | tch___ | garycmartin: well, we show external volumes and documents folder, is not that different... but I get what you say. :) |
17:03 | garycmartin: about walter's opinion, I don't know, still didn't received his feedback | |
17:04 | bernie | tch___: you've got way too many underscores, man! |
17:04 | :-) | |
17:04 | tch___ | bernie: I do what I can :( |
17:05 | bernie is now known as bernie_____ | |
17:05 | garycmartin | tch___: The Journal volumes bar was only meant to be there when external volumes are added. Feature creep then put the Document folder in there (as Walter wanted a place exposed in the filesystem for moving files in/out of the Journal). I notice DX have also added a shared volume there as well. So much for only exposing the volumes bar when needed ;) |
17:05 | bernie_____ | fuck it, i'm gonna do 5 underscores! |
17:06 | tch___ | garycmartin: these folders are also accessible through objectchoosers |
17:06 | garycmartin | bernie_____: _ it's like extra sergeant stripes :) |
17:06 | tch___ | bernie_____: lol... |
17:08 | garycmartin | tch___: accessible through objectchoosers, good point, yes that's a good thing I think. |
17:08 | tch___ | garycmartin: great, it actually does both things we proposed initially, |
17:08 | garycmartin: but is the same cause | |
17:10 | garycmartin | tch___: thinks it should be read only, but that'll require an error dialogue if you try and drag something in from the Journal (or I guess it could not accept drag and drop, and exclude its self from the various Copy to -> tools/menues). |
17:11 | tch___ | garycmartin: ack. |
17:12 | gonzalo_ | tch___, i want check if i understood the code: you are adding the examples directory to any activity? i mean if TurtleArt have examples, I will se the button when open the ObjectChooser in Paint? |
17:12 | garycmartin | tch___: re: read only with Write access folks may start to use them like folders, stashing their TA projects in TA, then when the upgrade at some point no more projects. |
17:13 | tch___ | garycmartin: Yes. But, only for the activities that are opened. |
17:14 | gonzalo_ | tch___, can you reply? ^^ |
17:14 | tch___ | ops, sorry, my last message was for you gonzalo_ |
17:15 | gonzalo_ | tch___, i do not agree with this implementation. examples directory is private of every activity |
17:15 | tch___, i think you should add a parameter to ObjectChooser call and open that directory | |
17:16 | tch___ | gonzalo_: under that definition it would not make sense to shown them in the journal either, ;/ |
17:16 | gonzalo_ | tch___, right, why show them in the journal? |
17:16 | tch___ | gonzalo_: I could be a option, yes... sadly for what I have seen it would require to hack around many places |
17:16 | garycmartin | gonzalo_: I think that is where I am as well, 'examples should be private to the activity'. |
17:17 | gonzalo_ | tch___, i know, you will need modify sugar and sugar-toolkit |
17:17 | bernie_____ | tch___, garycmartin: http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3qkq5e/ |
17:18 | tch___ | gonzalo_, garycmartin: I see the value in showing them like that, copying examples directly to the journal i.e, but is a design issue. Lets decide. |
17:18 | garycmartin | bernie_____: :) |
17:18 | tch___ | bernie_____: hahah |
17:19 | gonzalo_ | tch___, i think should be confuse. you need open your activity, a button will appear in the journal, go to the journal, copy the example..... |
17:20 | tch___, in the other case, you open a example, and will be copied when you finish | |
17:20 | tch___, i think is a cleaner workflow | |
17:21 | tch___ | the actual flow, does both things |
17:21 | gonzalo_ | garycmartin, i am talking too much in the design meeting, but is a activities issue too :) |
17:21 | tch___ | gonzalo_: is good, :) |
17:23 | gonzalo_ | tch___, but if you think all the places you will need modify to make this journal view read only, not add the directory to the combos and so, will see my proposal is easier |
17:23 | garycmartin | gonzalo_: yes, and if you open your activity, go to the journal, click the activity volume, click the example, you'll end up with two instances of the activity. One blank one you launched first, and the one with the example you were really after. This then makes activity authors want to add "Open file" dialogues to their activities, mentioning no names *whisperswalter* ;) |
17:24 | gonzalo_ | garycmartin, +1 |
17:24 | tch___ | well, as you can see the current implementation does everything (more than it should actually) |
17:24 | So, what you guys suggest is to only show the example folder on the objechooser | |
17:24 | ? | |
17:25 | garycmartin | tch___: yes, and only for that activity. |
17:25 | tch___ | garycmartin: perfect. |
17:25 | gonzalo_ | tch___, yes, and specify it as a optional parameter in ObjectChooser call |
17:25 | tch___, we know you can! :) | |
17:25 | tincho is back! | |
17:25 | garycmartin | :) |
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17:26 | tch___ | gonzalo_: ;) |
17:28 | bernie_____ is now known as bernie | |
17:28 | garycmartin | tch___: Walter can then use that call inside TA to bring up his example using the ObjectChooser, rather than the rather unpleasant Gnome file open dialogue. |
17:28 | tch___ | gonzalo_, garycmartin: the option should be to allow showing this folder by default? I just want to keep this as a packaging level solution, |
17:29 | gonzalo_ | tch___, i am not sure about that |
17:29 | tch___ | I don't want all activities developers to change their code to have this working. That way even deployments can just package their versions |
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17:30 | garycmartin | tch___: deployments will need custom activity bundles with added example content right? |
17:30 | tch___ | garycmartin: yep, thats all |
17:30 | garycmartin: no need for them to hack | |
17:33 | garycmartin: well, now that I think, not showing this on the journal will require to hack some activities anyway ;/ | |
17:33 | garycmartin | tch___: so could ObjectChooser check to see if an examples directory exists, and only then show the extra icon? I guess the extra ObjectChooser call would be for authors who want to default into that examples folder view. This is also only of nay use for activities that allow invoking the ObjectChooser to open a Journal Object. I can only think of TA, Read, ImageViewer .. hmmm that's about all I've got. Examples wouldn't work anywhere else |
17:33 | without activity hacking. | |
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17:34 | tch___ | garycmartin: Yeah, checking for examples folder is a requirement |
17:36 | garycmartin | tch___: OK, new random thought. What if bundle examples were exposed through the home view palettes, like a Start new with example -> option? |
17:37 | tch___ | garycmartin: it would limit the number of examples in the practise, to avoid visual spawm |
17:38 | garycmartin | tch___: how many examples were you thinking of including? |
17:38 | erikos | garycmartin: hey I am back, sorry for being late on the show :/ |
17:39 | garycmartin | erikos: Hey, well it's an unofficial design chat more than a meeting :) |
17:39 | tch___ | garycmartin: me none, hehe, guess it depends completely on developers or deployments |
17:39 | erikos | garycmartin: ahh, ok - because you did not announce it, I see |
17:40 | garycmartin | erikos: Yes, I didn't have internet access at the time, and now it's 'fixed' it's not really reliable enough (I'm having trouble just downloading regular email). |
17:40 | erikos | garycmartin: ohh, ok :/ |
17:40 | stops sending design discussion mails then | |
17:40 | garycmartin | erikos: :P |
17:41 | erikos: no don't stop, most fun I've had all week! ;) | |
17:41 | erikos | garycmartin: any of the items you want to talk about sync now? |
17:42 | garycmartin: (like the display evice, or the error alert?) | |
17:42 | tch___ | garycmartin: do we continue on ml? |
17:42 | garycmartin | erikos: I think I replied to most (just switching back on my email client to catch up, fingers crossed irc holds up!) |
17:43 | tch___: yes happy to continue on the mail list thread you'd started. | |
17:45 | erikos: So with the screenshot frame device, how do you avoid getting a screenshot with the frame and palette in? | |
17:45 | erikos | looks on the ml |
17:46 | garycmartin: just about to reply there ;p | |
17:46 | garycmartin | :) |
17:46 | erikos | copies |
17:46 | "Or we even open a new window with options how you want to take the screenshot (including only taking smaller parts of the screen)." | |
17:48 | garycmartin | erikos: that new window will still be in the way though... |
17:49 | erikos | gets a screenshot |
17:49 | garycmartin | erikos: OT, oh I dumped most of my maliit mockups at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/U[…]arycmartin/Maliit (it's roughly most refined at the top, original at the bottom) |
17:50 | erikos | garycmartin: hmm, hard to get a screenshot of the screenshot app :/ |
17:51 | (gnome-screenshot -i) in GNOME | |
17:51 | garycmartin | erikos: :) |
17:51 | erikos | garycmartin: about the window, that will go away after you clicked on it |
17:52 | garycmartin | erikos: I have a bit of python kicking around somewhere, it was the only way to get screen grabs of the Welcome first boot UI, and the Maliit OSK. |
17:52 | erikos | garycmartin: (otherwise the delay option sounds ok) |
17:52 | garycmartin: ok | |
17:53 | garycmartin: oh, great the maliit mockups, I think I never followed up on those | |
17:53 | garycmartin | erikos: I frequently need to take a shot of an open menu or palette, a delay option seems like the only way to get those types of shots. |
17:53 | (other than a physical button somewhere) | |
17:54 | erikos | garycmartin: right, palettes are tricky in that regard indeed |
17:54 | garycmartin: you are right | |
17:55 | garycmartin | erikos: I have a cleaned up module-keyboard.svg to replace the old one as well (will post it to the ML as a proposal). |
17:55 | erikos | physical button, maybe one of the game buttons ;p |
17:55 | garycmartin | erikos: or long hold of the rotate key? |
17:57 | erikos | garycmartin: yeah, for example something like this |
17:57 | garycmartin: would be available in ebook-mode as well | |
17:57 | garycmartin | yep |
17:57 | erikos | is OLPC specific, though |
17:58 | ideally we would have something in the UI | |
17:58 | garycmartin | Android and iOS didn't manage much better ;) |
17:58 | erikos | yes, which is bad, I had to google it up how to do it |
17:59 | garycmartin | erikos: Just suggesting it's a more complicated issue than would first appear. |
17:59 | erikos | garycmartin: absolutely agreed |
18:00 | garycmartin | erikos: I've been very good and not suggested we implement a new multi touch gesture ;) |
18:02 | erikos | garycmartin: actually, if you yum install 'gnome-screenshot' on the XO you can use it there |
18:02 | garycmartin: just managed to get a screenshot of the OSK and one of a Palette | |
18:02 | maybe something, worth documenting | |
18:03 | garycmartin | is gnome-screenshot a GUI or terminal command? |
18:03 | erikos | if you run it with the '-i' option it is a GUI |
18:03 | I looked once at the code, it basically has everything we would need as well | |
18:05 | garycmartin | erikos: I did try it at one point for the Welcome view but it wasn't happy (env vars etc I think). Will take a look again. |
18:05 | erikos | yeah, in the welcome screen it might be a different thing |
18:07 | not too bad, not too bad... | |
18:14 | garycmartin: ok, replied on the mail, so it does not get lost | |
18:14 | garycmartin: I think I like opening a window with a dialog about options | |
18:14 | garycmartin: does not sound too bad to me | |
18:14 | garycmartin | erikos: OK, just hunting down my emergency screenshot code :) |
18:15 | erikos: Haah, a pop up dialogue? | |
18:16 | erikos | garycmartin: http://www.google.de/imgres?hl[…]&vpy=535&dur=2457 |
18:16 | &hovh=208&hovw=242&tx=139&ty=127&sig=117837346323270795652&page=1&tbnh=146&tbnw=170&start=0&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:27,s:0,i:171 | |
18:16 | garycmartin: hope this link works for you ;p | |
18:17 | garycmartin: yeah, this is one case, where it might be a good option | |
18:17 | garycmartin: http://mymediasystem.net/wp/20[…]--interactive.png | |
18:17 | garycmartin: this link is better ^ | |
18:17 | garycmartin | it still waiting for yum install to download the database :\ |
18:18 | erikos | eeeh |
18:19 | garycmartin: while you are downloading...;p | |
18:20 | garycmartin | just got it :) |
18:20 | erikos | Erase |
18:20 | Do you want to permanently erase <entry name>? ((x) Cancel ((?) Erase) | |
18:20 | the entry name in " " ? | |
18:20 | at least I have seen that in iOS | |
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18:20 | erikos | (garageband erase of song afair) |
18:21 | garycmartin: I think this reads well | |
18:26 | garycmartin | Sure, I'm good with " " around the entry name, it's the same on Mountain Lion (just tested). Will need to make sure we are consistent. |
18:36 | erikos | garycmartin: ok |
18:37 | garycmartin: I will cc Chris to ask if it is ok we change the string for the activities as well | |
18:40 | garycmartin: what should we do with the alert for duplicate? | |
18:41 | garycmartin: I think the timeout alert would be ok | |
18:41 | garycmartin: (only in the detail view of course) | |
18:43 | garycmartin | erikos: Yes just reading the reply from silbe. It provide feedback for the action (the whole desire for duplicate in details view), but it's a little pointless for the option to switch, kind'a, would you like to see the identical duplicate or stay here. |
18:44 | erikos | garycmartin: yeah, I think I would like to see it handled with an animation |
18:45 | garycmartin: an icon moving towards the Journal icon at the bottom or similar | |
18:46 | garycmartin: maybe we wait until we have good support for animations? | |
18:46 | I don't feel too strong on this one to push for it myself ;p | |
18:46 | (meaning, the alert that notifies about the duplication) | |
18:48 | garycmartin | erikos: Much as I want animations :) Lets keep it simple. We're just after feedback that the Duplicate toolbutton does something, this can either be an alert before, or and alert on completion. So I guess it's just down to wording and what the "OK" button says. |
18:49 | and it's only in the Detail view, which is unfortunately a fairly dusty corner of the UI still. | |
18:49 | erikos | garycmartin: ok, if you have good wording ;p |
18:50 | garycmartin | ;P |
18:50 | erikos | <<Duplicated entry "". [OK]>> ? |
18:51 | (ok is a timeout) | |
18:54 | garycmartin | erikos: hmmmm, just thinking, what if Duplicate fails (say out of disk space, or you try it on a read only volume). If the alert is after the event we need to be smart about the message (e.g. don't tell the user lies). |
18:56 | erikos | cries |
19:00 | garycmartin | erikos: an alert before the action (confirmation) avoids needing to deal with an error (at least in this patch), I assume (probably incorrectly) that some other error is generated on failure? |
19:01 | erikos | garycmartin: would have to look if a duplicate error would occur |
19:01 | garycmartin: but asking if you want to duplicate, is a bit..overnany-like | |
19:01 | garycmartin: uff ;p | |
19:03 | garycmartin | erikos: agreed, I was just trying to aim for cheapest feedback for these two buttons. So much for that idea! |
19:03 | erikos | garycmartin: :) |
19:09 | garycmartin | erikos: OK, silly (?) idea what about a palette that opens, no primary action. The same way the Copy to button works? |
19:11 | remembers how you wanted the duplicate function in the Copy to feature palette/menue | |
19:11 | erikos: We'd not need this discussion if it was in there! ;) | |
19:15 | erikos | garycmartin: :)) |
19:15 | garycmartin: we can still move it in there ;p | |
19:15 | garycmartin | :P |
19:16 | erikos | (I sent you a screenshot of the erase alert with the new wording) |
19:17 | garycmartin: would be an option, I guess, having it no primary action | |
19:18 | so, not 100% convinced neither | |
19:18 | garycmartin | ;) |
19:20 | Do you dislike it more than a confirmation dialogue? | |
19:20 | erikos | no, not really |
19:21 | garycmartin: I have to run, sorry | |
19:21 | garycmartin | NP, it's very late. |
19:22 | Enjoy the rest of your evening, and thanks for all the patches et al! | |
19:23 | erikos | thanks |
19:23 | replied on the thread, so we can move forward ;p | |
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