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#sugar-meeting, 2012-07-17

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14:56 humitos hello everybody. I'm humitos :)
14:57 silbe humitos: Hi! That's a tautology. ;)
14:58 humitos is looking for the meaning of tautology...
14:58 I don't know even the meaning in my own language :P
14:58 humitos: http://lema.rae.es/drae/?val=tautolog%C3%ADa
14:58 wow!
15:00 manuq <manuq!~manuq@host61.190-229-211.telecom.net.ar> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:01 silbe humitos: at least you can now say you learned something new today :)
15:02 humitos silbe: everyday I can say that... Actually, I think that I know nothing
15:02 danielf <danielf!~danielf@r186-49-76-237.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:02 manuq hi silbe
15:02 hi danielf
15:02 garycmartin lurkes and waves
15:02 benzea hello
15:02 caspar hello
15:02 danielf hi everybody
15:03 silbe waves to everyone
15:03 manuq hi everybody, who is around for the meeting?
15:03 garycmartin, benzea, caspar, hi
15:03 benzea is around
15:03 manuq #startmeeting
15:03 meeting Meeting started Tue Jul 17 15:03:28 2012 UTC. The chair is manuq. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:03 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:04 manuq hopefully this will be short
15:04 so tomorrow we'll come back to design meetings
15:04 and next dev meeting can be based on design desitions
15:05 first topic, newcomers?
15:05 silbe yeah, too bad I can't participate in the first Design Team meeting since almost forever :-/
15:05 manuq do we have anyone new in the room?
15:05 silbe: we can discuss design meeting schedule at the end
15:05 jvonau hi, just lurking.
15:06 silbe manuq: ok
15:06 manuq jvonau: are you new to sugar? sorry if I don't remember you
15:06 jvonau no, with olpc-au
15:07 manuq jvonau: and new to dev meetings?
15:07 jvonau yes, but I read the logs.
15:07 danielf jvonau: welcome on-board
15:07 manuq jvonau: ok! do you want to introduce yourself?
15:08 jvonau Well, been with olpc-au for awhile now and do pretty much all the stuff to put out an image for them..
15:08 humitos manuq: don't you should use the "topic" command? (just asking
15:08 )
15:09 manuq humitos: thanks
15:09 #topic newcomers
15:10 jvonau: ok, I think I've read emails from you in the sugar-devel list
15:10 guess jvonau is around here before himself
15:11 ok
15:11 #topic follow up the shell port (manuq)
15:12 from last week, the shell starts, activities can be started, the home view is visible
15:13 issues: other zoom views are not displayed at the moment
15:13 humitos manuq: good!
15:14 manuq the journal does not start, nothing in the logs but I'm making progress
15:15 I'm reporting a couple of bugs to pygobject
15:15 yesterday I updated my sugar-build to the latest gtk+ from git
15:16 which have some fixes from carlos garnacho from a few days ago
15:16 like a fix for the big X in the search box that was affecting Browse too
15:17 (and the search boxes in the zoom views of the shell)
15:18 so, that's it, I hope I can do a lot more this week, to arrive to guadec with something more polished
15:18 any questions?
15:18 humitos manuq: no a question, but: congratulations!
15:18 danielf manuq: is there any progress with the gst regressions? (speak wasn't working)
15:19 silbe manuq: good luck!
15:19 danielf manuq: espeak^
15:20 manuq danielf: so, espeak is not working in sugar-build, because dnarvaez is trying to keep fedora and ubuntu with the same dependencies, and ubuntu doesn't have it
15:20 dnarvaez: can you correct me if I'm wrong?
15:21 humitos, silbe, thanks :)
15:22 hmm maybe he's not around?
15:22 ok, next topic? more questions?
15:22 danielf manuq: ok, I have no excuses to follow the Speak activity port, I wait to the next topic to tell more
15:23 manuq #topic follow up the activities port
15:23 has seen a lot of work recently
15:23 danielf, please go on :)
15:24 danielf About the Speak activity: I got the first Fatal Python Error of my life
15:24 manuq danielf: did it hurt? :)
15:25 danielf: do you have something in the logs?
15:25 danielf a few, now I'll fill the activity with logs to localize the problem
15:25 manuq is a segmentation fault?
15:26 danielf manuq: no, the log says Fatal Python Error
15:26 manuq danielf: and when does it happen?
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15:28 danielf manuq: I started the port, and the activity started, Alice started to speak and in a second the activity finished
15:28 manuq danielf: great, you found a bug! :)
15:28 benzea sounds like attaching gdb or even running it trough valgrind might be an idea
15:29 manuq benzea: yes, danielf: I'm sure someone in IRC can instruct you how to inspect it
15:29 humitos? ^
15:29 benzea though, I guess it is a gstreamer binding problem?
15:29 humitos manuq: what? I don't know how to use gdb
15:30 manuq danielf: how are you importing gstreamer
15:30 ?
15:30 danielf benzea: another thing to do is port the Gst code, there was no conflict, but...
15:30 manuq humitos: ok, no problem
15:30 humitos danielf: did you port the gst code?
15:30 danielf: because I'm not sure what to do with that
15:31 danielf manuq: No, there was no conflict with pygst
15:31 humitos^
15:32 manuq danielf: so you are using "import pygst"
15:32 danielf humitos: The Gobject Introspection is much more similar than the C libraries, there isn't docs for Python but there is the official documentation for C
15:32 benzea won't that load the static pygobject bindings?
15:33 danielf manuq: import gst and import pygst
15:33 manuq benzea: I fear that
15:33 benzea manuq: yup, it will happen ...
15:33 humitos benzea: yes, I think that "import gst" load the static bindings
15:34 benzea and then it is not too surprising that it fails at some point ... mostly ugly that it does not fail right away
15:34 humitos benzea: I'm using "import gst" in Jukebox with Gtk3 and it's working properly
15:34 benzea: danielf manuq that is something that we should discuss
15:34 benzea which means, there is no point in trying to debug this further before the bindings are ported
15:35 manuq so, gnome is porting to GStreamer 1.0 https://live.gnome.org/GnomeGo[…]/PortToGstreamer1
15:35 humitos http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ing/Jukebox#Notes
15:35 manuq here is a porting guide: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Novacut/GStreamer1.0
15:36 danielf humitos, manuq (manueles): A little detail: My activity ran ugly, I modified some lines which toke errors in the log an then the Fatal Python Error
15:37 benzea humitos: if it works in jukebox it may simply be that you got lucky ...
15:37 humitos benzea: :)
15:37 benzea: that's the meaning of life... lucky :)
15:38 garycmartin Talking of porting, I noticed some talk of GNOME dropping GConf (it is no longer maintained), is there an official replacement? The folks in Maliit are moving to QSettings, I've never heard of that before.
15:38 manuq garycmartin: yes, GSettings
15:38 silbe garycmartin: the replacement used by Gnome is GSettingsd
15:38 *GSettings
15:39 humitos yes
15:39 garycmartin Thanks, OK so I guess we may need to dance around with Maliit and find a way to support it's settings.
15:40 manuq ok, danielf, can you give a try to the introspection bindings with the links provided for humitos?
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15:40 manuq provided by
15:40 danielf manuq: sure
15:40 humitos manuq: danielf that would be great! even more, if you can, please document what you did and if it worked or not
15:41 manuq great
15:42 this is why keeping regular meetings is good :)
15:42 anyone else want to raise an activity port report/issue?
15:42 any other topic?
15:43 m_anish manuq, i had a question
15:43 manuq sure m_anish
15:43 m_anish manuq, so its great to see the design meetings finally start to happen :-) hopefully they'll be regular... Are the 0.98 roadmap dates being identified...
15:43 manuq, something like this http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.96/Roadmap
15:45 manuq, another question. will 0.98 ship gtk2 libs alongside gtk3 ones or will it be gtk3 only?
15:45 danielf m_anish: 0.98 will be compatible with Gtk2 activities
15:46 manuq m_anish: thanks for pointing out, yes we should do an schedule for 0.98 soon
15:46 m_anish: danielf is right
15:46 m_anish danielf, ah! okay
15:46 silbe m_anish: we said during the last meeting that sugar-toolkit will continued to be maintained. Maybe what you're more interested in is whether OLPC OS 12.2.0 will ship GTK2 libs?
15:46 m_anish manuq, okay, thanks
15:46 silbe, yep, that too! :-)
15:46 manuq, danielf any word on that? ^^?
15:46 i knw its more an OLPC question
15:47 manuq so I'm not the one to ask about 12.2.0 plans, but as it will be based on 0.98, I think it will have gtk2 compatibility
15:47 m_anish manuq, okay
15:48 manuq ok!
15:49 we are close to success keeping this meeting to 1 hr timeframe!
15:49 anything else? design meeting schedule?
15:50 silbe manuq: will the GTK3 port for 0.98 leave anything unported? Intro screen, tests, whatever? I.e. do we retain any dependency on GTK2 libraries?
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15:52 manuq silbe: well I'm not touching sugar-datastore
15:52 silbe manuq: no problem, sugar-datastore doesn't have any UI code.
15:53 manuq silbe: so, the idea is to completly port the shell
15:53 silbe manuq: ok, great. thanks!
15:53 manuq silbe: we are not using any compatibility layer, so the port is all at once
15:54 silbe manuq: perfect. Are you going directly to GSettings or will that be a separate step?
15:54 m_anish silbe, i had that question as well :-)
15:55 manuq silbe: I'm keeping GConf by now, GSettings should be a separate step, if keeping GConf doesn't block us
15:55 silbe manuq: fine with me.
15:56 m_anish yep, makes sense
15:56 manuq silbe, m_anish, great if you agree, I was in doubt
15:57 silbe manuq: If GConf stays around long enough and still works properly, it's good engineering to do it in a separate iteration. The GTK3 port is complex enough already.
15:57 m_anish manuq, sorry for stretching the meeting... another general question I had, in general builds for the XO laptop have gnome alongside. I wanted to know whether there were any efforts in integrating the settings used by sugar and gnome
15:58 manuq silbe: yeah
15:58 m_anish for example, with dsd's NM 0.9 patch i believe the network settings between sugar and gnome are shared
15:58 manuq m_anish: no problem stretching the meeting :)
15:59 m_anish: we can discuss that, or wasn't discussed already?
16:00 m_anish manuq, for example ... http://dev.laptop.org.au/issues/705
16:01 manuq, i guess there would be time to submit patches along these lines as they probably won't affect UI ... but it will help immensely if points of integrating settings between gnome and sugar could be identified and worked upon
16:01 manuq, anyway, i  guess i just wanted to raise a point, i dont have an actionable item on it right now
16:01 manuq, feel free to move to the next topic(s)
16:02 manuq m_anish: to me, sounds like a good idea, should be proceeded as a feature page as any other contribution to sugar
16:02 m_anish manuq, okay
16:02 manuq I have no more topics
16:03 countdown?
16:03 m_anish +1
16:03 manuq 5
16:04 silbe from my side only the Design Team meeting schedule is left
16:04 manuq silbe: yes, please
16:05 silbe Both as a Sugar maintainer and as a party interested in the Sugar design I'd like to take part in the Design Team meetings.
16:06 manuq garycmartin and others, can we try to move the design meeting? what about monday 15 utc? works for me if we keep it to 1 hr
16:06 silbe Unfortunately I'm unavailable on Wednesdays and Thursday and the meeting is currently scheduled for Wed (at least for this week, but the idea probably was to keep that time slot).
16:06 garycmartin In my email reply to silbe (on the mail list): "We're currently tied into Sugar/OLPC meetings Monday, Tuesday, Friday  (around the ~15:00 UTC time slot which seems to be good for many folks time zones). Let's review a regular time slot for the next meeting once I've seen who makes it this week. We could possibly try an earlier meeting on Mondays – say at 14:30UTC – as Daniel's build release/triage meetings are not until 16:00 UTC."
16:07 manuq garycmartin: good
16:07 silbe I have a different meeting on Mon 14 UTC, but if necessary the Design Team meeting will trump it.
16:07 m_anish too, FWIW
16:07 manuq garycmartin: so we will make it tomorrow, and maybe we can move to Mondays 14:30 UTC for the next weeks
16:08 m_anish silbe, yep, design meetings would trump it
16:08 garycmartin The design meetings used to be run on Mondays during the last cycle. And before that Sundays. It's always been tough to find a time/day that is good for different time zones.
16:08 m_anish we could move the other meeting around, but i think being able to have regular attendance in design meetings is going to be imp
16:09 silbe garycmartin: +1, it's an impossible problem to solve in general. :-/
16:10 manuq says +1 to Monday 14:30 UTC
16:11 m_anish says +1 to that time as well
16:11 silbe +1 to Mon 14:30 UTC
16:11 garycmartin silbe: My hope is that the IRC meeting are minimal in design decisions. Realtime design meetings (via text) are really not a good use of time. We should try an have 95% of the discussion via email on the mail list, the wiki for more static items, and bugs.SL.org for actionable items. The realtime meeting should just be about pinging folks on what progress they made for the previous week.
16:12 silbe garycmartin: if that works it would be great. It didn't work in the past, but the circumstances are different now so we should just try again.
16:13 garycmartin OK, can try the next but one meeting on a Monday.
16:14 silbe garycmartin: Do I parse this correctly to mean that there will be a meeting tomorrow, but all following meetings will be Mon 14:30 UTC?
16:14 garycmartin silbe: If it doesn't work like that I'll probably need to drop out of the Design meetings as happened last time :( I'm not a fast typer and like to think things over. Realtime is really bad for making good design decisions.
16:15 silbe: Yes, Wednesday meeting tomorrow as per email. It's just about touching base on those agenda items and kicking of email threads (and wiki, bugs) as needed.
16:16 m_anish garycmartin, looking fwd to tomorrow... Atleast from the dextrose builds, there are many useful features we want to push upstream :-)
16:16 silbe garycmartin: +1. For me the synchronous communication (i.e. IRC) is more for cases where we're not understanding each other (which often benefits from a short RTT), rather than where we (apparently) disagree (at first).
16:17 garycmartin: ok. I'll just follow up via email where necessary then.
16:18 manuq garycmartin: +1, let's keep focus in the meeting for wrap up progress, topics and action items, and keep discussions in the mailing list, actions in the bug tracker, specs and mockups in the wiki
16:19 garycmartin silbe: Yes, the plan is that decision intentions are emailed out to the lists for discussion for those than can't make the meeting.
16:19 silbe That's it from my side. Does anyone else have anything left to discuss?
16:19 m_anish nope :-) done here!
16:20 4?
16:20 manuq ok! now..
16:20 5
16:20 m_anish 4
16:20 silbe 3
16:20 garycmartin 2
16:20 manuq ...
16:20 danielf 1, 0
16:20 manuq #endmeeting
16:20 meeting Meeting ended Tue Jul 17 16:20:45 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:20 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-17T15:03:28.html
16:20 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]12-07-17T15:03:28
16:20 manuq thanks everyone!
16:20 silbe humitos: are you still typing?
16:21 oops, too late
16:21 m_anish thx everyone! :-)
16:21 silbe thanks everyone for the focussed meeting!
16:21 garycmartin thanks folks, see some of you here tomorrow!
16:21 manuq see you tomorrow :)
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16:22 humitos silbe: no, I'm not typing, why?
16:22 silbe humitos: you didn't participate in the countdown
16:22 humitos silbe: oh, I didn't know that I had to do something in the countdown
16:22 silbe: what is the idea?
16:23 ah, everybody should say the following number!
16:23 I do understand! :D
16:23 silbe humitos: The purpose of the countdown is to make sure nobody is still busy typing before we close the meeting.
16:23 humitos silbe: another thing that I've learnt today ;)
16:23 silbe humitos: if everybody joins in, we know there's nothing left in their buffers.
16:24 humitos: perfect :)
16:24 danielf laughs
16:25 cjl silbe, I have a question about sugar-toolkit (gtk2)
16:25 silbe cjl: go ahead
16:25 cjl If we will be including it in 0.98, then w eshould probably have it present in hte Poolte project and be committing to the head repo for it.
16:26 Currently, I excluded it, mistakenly thinking it was not going to be in 0.98
16:26 This is impt for new langs that may not have done 0.96 L10n.
16:27 For old langs. the completed PO files will jsut carry over.
16:27 Does that sound right to you?
16:27 silbe cjl: if there's anything left untranslated (as I expect) or otherwise unfinished then yes, we should. There probably will not be any further string change to it (from the developers side).
16:27 cjl: +1
16:28 cjl: but thinking a bit about it, wouldn't it be sufficient to keep it in 0.96? Or will 0.96 translations stop soon?
16:28 cjl ok, I'll make i tright in Poolte.  Is a sugar-toolkit o.96 branch created already?
16:28 silbe, it is that ne wlangs (and there are several) may not know they need to do 0.96.
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16:29 cjl silbe, I'll think about it some more.
16:30 silbe cjl: yes, there's a sucrose-0.96 branch.
16:30 cjl ok, as a general rule, it makes sense for each Poolte project to stand on it's own feet.  We have many releases fo the 5 word Sugar-base.po (for example).
16:31 silbe cjl: whatever works best for translators should be fine with the Development Team IMO. The advantage of keeping it in 0.96 is that deployments "still" using 0.96 would benefit from it, whereas as you point out moving on to 0.98 reduces confusion.
16:31 cjl We take care fo transferrign conserved strings around for the localizers usually, so the replication does not create any workload issues
16:32 No matter what, it will stay in 0.96 Poolte, question is whether we should also put it in 0.98 Poolte.
16:32 silbe cjl: FWIW, sugar-base was merged into sugar-toolkit-gtk3. So there's sugar-base + sugar-toolkit (both GTK2 based, both frozen at their 0.96 version) and sugar-toolkit-gtk3 (GTK3 based; all non-bug fix work will be done here).
16:33 cjl right, I understand.  I'll think about it and maybe ask the localizers what they woruld prefer t osee.
16:33 silbe cjl: thanks. Please tell me if anything needs to be done on our side.
16:33 cjl I'm on top of L10n pretty closely, so I could generally avoid issues
16:34 No the 0.96 branching should take care of every thing.
16:34 silbe cjl: You're quite invaluable as a L10n coordinator! :-|
16:34 cjl thaks.
16:35 silbe cjl: BTW, do you happen to know how a11y (accessibility) vs. i18n/l10n works in other GTK based projects?
16:35 cjl I don't know a lot (other than Orca)
16:36 I'm interested in a11y and in many ways, it is just another form of L10n.
16:36 silbe cjl: GTK resp. ATK has a way to set special a11y attributes for widgets, especially accessibility-name and accessibility-description, apparently supposed to contain a natural language string (the documentation is rather sparse on this). Should one or both of them be translated?
16:38 cjl I would imagine they should be.  Just because someone is blind doesn't mean they know English.
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16:39 silbe cjl: a comment on the Gnome bug tracker suggested that name should not be translated, but description should be. Is that still / actually the case? Given that name is usually automatically filled with the label where that is possible, it doesn't make much sense to me to leave it untranslated for manually set strings...
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16:41 cjl Silbe, for activities in Sugar, where the Name is typically an action verb, we DO translate the name (from the activity.info line 2).
16:41 silbe cjl: here's the reference: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=525226
16:42 cjl You can see the localtion actvity.info:2 in many activity PO files and it is th eactivity name available in Poolte.
16:42 silbe cjl: ah, I'm specifically talking about the ATK property accessibility-name. Sorry for abbreviating too much.
16:44 cjl silbe, I'll need t oread that bug and research a little more.  We do have an a11y list that should be consulted  http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/accessibility
16:45 I'm not subscribed myself, but posting a question there may get a mor informed response than I have.
16:46 silbe cjl: ok, thanks.
16:50 cjl silbe,  Imight ask the Orca people.  Not sure hwere they hang out.
16:50 https://live.gnome.org/Orca
16:51 silbe cjl: that would be appreciated.
16:51 cjl silbe, I menat YOU migh task them, I'm not sure I understand th etechnical issue at hand.
16:52 https://mail.gnome.org/archives/orca-list/
16:54 I don't know if they have an IRC channel, if they do it would probably be on gnome infrastructure
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18:16 silbe cjl: ok, I thought you had a more direct line to them. I'll try the Gnome accessibility ML if I don't get a response on the ticket.
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18:30 cjl silbe, no I do not know them.
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