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#sugar-meeting, 2012-07-10

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15:01 manuq hi
15:01 gonzalo_ hello!
15:01 walterbender hola
15:02 manuq hola señor walterbender!
15:02 gonzalo_ ja ja
15:02 garycmartin waves
15:02 gonzalo_ hi garycmartin !
15:03 cjl mumbles something indistinct
15:03 silbe waves
15:05 gonzalo_ great, I think we can start
15:05 #startmeeting
15:05 meeting Meeting started Tue Jul 10 15:05:17 2012 UTC. The chair is gonzalo_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:05 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
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15:06 gonzalo_ hello all, i  think we can look at the usual topics, and later see if there anything more
15:06 #topic new volnteers
15:06 anybody  new in the channel?
15:08 while we wait if anybody waves, i can tell you, in the last weekend we (manuq, humitos and gonzalo) were in a python event
15:08 and talked about sugar of course
15:08 manuq python camp!
15:09 gonzalo_ and a few guys have now dev enviroment installed, part with VMs and part using sugar-build
15:09 thanks to dnarvaez work
15:09 cjl You obviously did not spend enough on buying other people beer or we would have new people here :-)
15:09 manuq the pycamp in Argentina is great, in case anyone can come next time :)
15:09 gonzalo_ cjl, or may be too much beer do them forgot the meeting :)
15:09 manuq cjl: we will track them to make it happen :)
15:10 cjl :-)
15:10 gonzalo_ they were exploring, I hope we will have news in the future
15:11 manuq gonzalo_: and I worked face-to-face in the shell port, his help was great
15:11 gonzalo_ ok, probably is safe pass to the next topic
15:11 manuq yup
15:11 gonzalo_ #topic shell port
15:11 manuq, do you want talk about that?
15:12 manuq sure
15:12 we have branchs with GTK+ 3 already
15:13 is all in http://git.sugarlabs.org/~dnar[…]manuqs-shell-port
15:13 that's a sugar-build dnarvaez did
15:14 sugar starts, the zoom levels and the frame are working
15:14 danielf manuq: How does the current shell port work?
15:14 great
15:15 manuq the icons are not displayed yet because we need a fix in gtk about the forall method
15:15 garnacho has a patch for it, we should patch gtk to continue development
15:16 other work needed is:
15:16 - Gio.File API changes
15:16 - GenericTreeModel deprecation
15:17 - do_forall fix
15:17 - espeak
15:17 I think that's all for the moment
15:18 danielf: you can try for yourself cloning the sugar-build link above
15:18 danielf: and you can contribute if you want, of course :)
15:19 danielf What's up with speak?
15:19 silbe manuq: what are the repositories / branches you used? i'd like to take a look without installing sugar-build
15:20 manuq silbe: for sugar component, I branched from the hippo-removal branch, it's http://git.sugarlabs.org/~manu[…]erikos-shell-port
15:20 silbe manuq: did you need to change anything that we'd also need for the de-hippo'ed version?
15:20 gonzalo_ danielf, after shell will talk about activities
15:21 manuq silbe: and we branched sugar-toolkit-gtk3 too, in http://git.sugarlabs.org/~manu[…]ugar-toolkit-gtk3
15:21 silbe: no other changes are needed
15:21 danielf gonzalo: sorry, I saw a work needed with espeak and I accidentally wrote speak
15:21 silbe manuq: thanks. can you give a quick summary of what changes you needed in sugar-toolkit-gtk3? bug fixes? new widgets? enhancements to existing widgets?
15:22 manuq silbe: only porting the EventIcon changes in the hippo-removal branch
15:23 silbe manuq: ok. So that code will go into sugar for the de-hippo'ed version and move into sugar-toolkit-gtk3 for the GTK3 version?
15:23 manuq silbe: right
15:24 silbe manuq: ok, thanks.
15:24 cjl I haven't noticed any string changes in HEAD versus Sugar 0.96 yet, I'd like to track the first one or two to make sure Pootle and Gitorious are playing nicely together.
15:24 manuq silbe: you can see the changes in the last 3 commits at the sugar-toolkit-gtk3 branch above
15:25 gonzalo_ cjl, i think there are not string changes planned after the port is finished
15:25 cjl ok
15:26 silbe manuq: great, will take a look later.
15:26 manuq silbe: thanks
15:27 gonzalo_ right now, iam trying to compile gtk to add garnacho patch, but add more dependencies, probably is only a temporary solution to allow us to continue working until the fix is packaged
15:28 manuq yes, this should be fixed upstream
15:28 gonzalo_ anything more about shell port?
15:29 silbe, the EventIcon was already reviewed by benzea, is in git now?
15:30 dnarvaez gonzalo_: we will still need to keep building that stuff until next stable round of distros though :/
15:30 gonzalo_ dnarvaez, hmm, would be a shame :(
15:31 silbe gonzalo_: I don't know about Fedora, but with Debian it's pretty easy to roll your own package with a custom patch. OLPC could host a repository with those fixes, until they made their way through upstream. That way it needs to be done only once, rather than by each developer individually.
15:32 gonzalo_: I haven't seen a patch posted to add it to sugar (which IIRC was the consensus).
15:32 dnarvaez it's several interdependent packages, maybe we could apply the patch to 3.4 but my understanding is that we will need 3.5 anyway for sugar touch work later
15:34 gonzalo_ silbe, no? I was sure it was posted
15:35 dnarvaez, the patch is a oneliner in a metadata comments, I hope we have it solved upstream
15:36 silbe manuq: what's the sugar repository for the gtk3 change? (you only posted the sugar-toolkit-gtk3 link before and removing -toolkit-gtk3 does not result in a valid path)
15:36 gonzalo_: I've only seen a patch against sugar-toolkit, not against sugar
15:36 manuq silbe: it's above, http://git.sugarlabs.org/~manu[…]erikos-shell-port
15:37 silbe manuq: ah, right, thanks.
15:38 gonzalo_ manuq, the de-hippo branch use the SugarEventIcon in sugar or in sugar-toolkit?
15:38 dnarvaez gonzalo_: yeah it will be solved upstream, but probably not backported to the stable branch (maybe if we ask but then it still needs to go into the distros)
15:39 manuq silbe, gonzalo_, yes for the sugar de-hippo'ed patches we should wait erikos is back in action
15:40 because is better to get him involved in the review process, as he was doing most of the job
15:40 gonzalo_ manuq, ok, anyway  would be good if sillbe look at the branches
15:40 silbe manuq: +1. I haven't seen cleaned-up patches yet anyway.
15:41 unless somebody created a new branch and didn't post the patches yet?
15:41 dnarvaez [ot] while maintainers are here, could I get reviews on my out-source-directory patches? :)
15:41 silbe dnarvaez: caspar is working on it
15:42 dnarvaez cool
15:43 gonzalo_ ok, can we pass to the next topic?
15:43 manuq silbe, gonzalo_, yes, we didn't arrange them yet
15:43 silbe dnarvaez: IIRC, we're a) missing some explanation of the overall picture (what do we want to solve, how do we solve it in sugar, why do we solve it this way, what other changes are needed?) and b) previous review comments were applied only partially
15:43 manuq gonzalo_: yup
15:44 gonzalo_ #topic activities porting
15:44 walterbender is finally coming up for air... ready to help
15:44 gonzalo_ nice :)
15:45 danielf, do you have questions?
15:45 dnarvaez silbe: will follow up on the ml to not take over the meeting
15:45 silbe dnarvaez: re. "why do we solve it this way?", addressing why we don't just go the ./setup.py (distutils) route right away would be good, too.
15:45 dnarvaez: thanks.
15:46 danielf manuq, What problems do you have with espeak in the shell port? I'm porting Speak and I'm interested in know that
15:46 manuq danielf: I think is an issue only in the sugar-build
15:47 gonzalo_ danielf, has you ported the gstreamer code?
15:47 manuq danielf: global text-to-speech works for me in jhbuild
15:47 gonzalo_ manuq, in gtk2 :)
15:48 manuq gonzalo_: happens for me in sugar-build for gtk2 too
15:48 danielf gonzalo_: No, I have removed Hippo and now I'm waiting for revision
15:48 dnarvaez manuq: ah yeah I've seen that, I can take a look
15:48 manuq dnarvaez: oh, great
15:48 gonzalo_ alsroot, has you seen danielf patch? ^^
15:49 manuq danielf: great to see a lot of progress in the ports from you!
15:49 gonzalo_ anybody knows if dirakx1 is on vacation or anything similar? pflores?
15:50 walterbender danielf: have you begun work on the TurtleArt port?
15:50 danielf: maybe we can discuss it after the meeting?
15:50 alsroot gonzalo_: gtk3 one? I saw ag* was pinged me for some patch. I'm super busy last couple of weeks. will sort out inbox this later week
15:50 danielf walterbender: I'm sorry, let's talk about it then.
15:51 gonzalo_ alsroot, de-hippo
15:51 dirakx1 not on vacation..i have eview the patch, but is giving an error...diagnozing.
15:51 reviewed*
15:51 gonzalo_ ohh, hi dirakx1 !
15:51 walterbender danielf: no problem... I've been busy making many changes that would have needed porting anyway
15:51 pflores gonzalo_ ok, dirakx1 already answered :)
15:52 gonzalo_ dirakx1, alsroot, do you want say anything about port of activities?
15:52 alsroot gonzalo_: port? where
15:52 ..to where
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15:52 gonzalo_ alsroot, to gtk3 :)
15:53 alsroot gonzalo_: in general, my thinking is until gtk2 is still in game, it is not a super problem
15:54 dirakx1 gonzalo_: about it, what we have done is depicted on wiki.laptop.org on porting status.
15:55 cjl alsroot true for Sugar 0.96, but not Sugar 0.97>0.98
15:55 dirakx1 gonzalo_: but I can say that flavio is workin on porting maze, and Tamtam. besides all the previous work.
15:55 alsroot cjl: but what it happen there, you mean distros will stop ships gtk2?
15:56 gonzalo_ dirakx1, and what is as "Port finish" is already reviewed and ready to use?
15:56 dirakx1 gonzalo_: +1
15:56 gonzalo_: we need to do releases.
15:56 gonzalo_ dirakx1, ok
15:57 dirakx1 gonzalo_: and also we are doing QA before it.
15:57 cjl alsroot, eventually, that may happen and we want gtk3 versions ready
15:57 garycmartin dirakx1: I have some design notes here on the TamTam suite, I'll add them to http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]ivity_Touch_Input later today.
15:57 dirakx1 to be sure we don't have regressions.
15:57 gonzalo_ garycmartin, thanks!
15:57 alsroot cjl: well, if we (sugar) the only system that use gtk2, then you are right. but I suspect it is not :)
15:58 dirakx1 garycmartin: great thanks
15:58 cjl Will Sugar 0.98 support gtk2?
15:58 dirakx1 will review them.
15:58 silbe alsroot: AIUI the main reason to switch to GTK3 early is the improved touch screen support. Maybe gonzalo_ or garycmartin can explain what difference it makes?
15:58 walterbender be nice to have a quick meeting on TamTam at some point... there are a number of little things we should change given the opportunity
15:58 alsroot cjl: if there is intention to break many activiities, then, yes 0.98 should not support gtk2 :)
15:59 gonzalo_ alsroot, the main reason to port is the touch support
15:59 silbe cjl: Sugar 0.98 will continue to ship sugar-toolkit (the GTK2 version). Other than that, it's a question of what the distros support, not Sugar.
15:59 gonzalo_ alsroot, 0.98 will have gtk2 support of course
15:59 cjl walterbender: pflores asked gonzalo_ about a TamTam meeting i n#sugar a little while ago
15:59 gonzalo_ cjl, yes
16:00 pflores cjl yes
16:00 gonzalo_ from my part I would like help with TamTam port. Right now, I am fighting with Paint port, and is taking more time than I expected
16:01 manuq alsroot: the GTK3 port benefits are largely explained in the wiki, is not just for touch support
16:01 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3
16:02 alsroot manuq: no doubts it is useful, I'm only talking that there is no need in rush for all people
16:02 gonzalo_ alsroot, just courious, what activities do you maintain right now?
16:03 alsroot gonzalo_: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/U[…]#Background_tasks
16:03 manuq alsroot: I think the hurry because sugar will be overloaded for a the period to support both GTK3 and GTK2
16:03 garycmartin alsroot: We will start to see feature differences on GTK2 vs GTK3 activities in the next cycle, so ideally we should have no core Activities left behind in GTK2.
16:03 manuq the idea is to make that period as short as possible
16:04 gonzalo_ alsroot, thanks
16:04 alsroot manuq: I guess it is pretty trivial, it is up to particular devs, if they feel they are overloaded, they will do something
16:05 manuq alsroot: sorry, I meant to say, that the sugar environment will have an overload
16:05 silbe garycmartin: porting everything to GTK3 means leaving behind a large portion of the installed base. I don't see how porting to GTK3 early is a benefit there (but I do see the other reasons to do it, of course).
16:05 gonzalo_ alsroot, will you accept patches to port to gtk3 your activities?
16:05 alsroot garycmartin: for myself, I will prefer keep the common code base for activities I'm mainating. ie, there people in the field who use 0.88 (when they will siwtch to gtk3 is a question)
16:06 gonzalo_: right now, I'm prefering welcome people to support gtk3 branch for activities they provide gtk3 patches for
16:07 gonzalo_ alsroot, and how will you manage releases?
16:07 garycmartin alsroot: silbe: Agreed, it's a tricky situation to be in. I'm planning to only do new feature work for GTK3 versions, critical bugfixes only for the GTK2 activities.
16:07 gonzalo_ garycmartin, yes, we have agreed that
16:08 alsroot gonzalo_: common code base (gtk2 or gtk2+3) for stable releases and gtk3 only releases (w/ help from people who support gtk3 branch)
16:09 gonzalo_ alsroot, we have explored the gtk2+3 route, and is not easy/clean
16:10 alsroot gonzalo_: I didn't investigate that way, just if it will be not hard..
16:10 kaametza_ <kaametza_!~icarito@190.113.196.13> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:11 alsroot if it will be hard. then, well, it might be decided on case basis. who can spend what time to support/backport etc.
16:11 walterbender is not convinced we gave CScott's code a close enough look
16:12 danielf alsroot, gtk3 has new features, using gtk2 we can't take advantage of them easily
16:12 I prefer to separate the releases always when it be possible
16:13 dnarvaez agreed, we need to move away from gtk2, it's matter of figuring out how and when
16:13 alsroot danielf: for sure, but the question is what we are talking about. about shell, fructose, or arbitrary (maybe not well maintained) activity. for sure, shell might siwtch entirely to gtk3 even from 0.98, but sugar-toolkit should support gtk2 activities as well
16:13 gonzalo_ alsroot, no question about that
16:14 dnarvaez shipping sugar-toolkit-gtk2 can be left as a distro decision imo
16:14 danielf alsroot, I'm talking about your activities
16:14 gonzalo_ alsroot, we don't want break all the activities until are ported to gtk3
16:14 alsroot dnarvaez: the distro case is the most trivial. people can just switch between distro releases to use gtk2 or gtk3 system. the real problem is deployments
16:15 danielf: for activities I'm maintaining, they are being in use in the filed/deplount as well
16:15 gonzalo_ alsroot, what we are trying is have the main activities ported in the next cycle, to have a better experience to the 0.98 users
16:15 dnarvaez alsroot: same there, I think it's up to the deployment if they want/need support gtk2
16:15 not much for upstream to do
16:16 pflores cjl gonzalo_ dirakx1 Regarding TamTam, I'm not sure if we should discuss it right now, but there are many uncertainties about porting TamTam (maybe garycmartin already cleared up some of them with his new guidelines I didn't see yet). gonzalo_ do you think it would make sesnse making an "activities porting exchange"?
16:16 dirakx1 anyway, we have also to provide a backwards support for gtk based activities (at least for some time probably a year).
16:16 alsroot dnarvaez: sorry, it is not deployment maintain activiites deployment people use. it is me. so, I'm in response for what I'm doing, ie, I prefer to provide most recent activity code for all peple (btw, I guess, most of users are exactly in deloyments, not distro users)
16:16 gonzalo_ dirakx1, yes
16:17 pflores, depending on what  "activities porting exchange" means :)
16:17 walterbender "activities porting exchange"???
16:17 dirakx1 gonzalo_: agree. I think that this has been discussed before.
16:17 gonzalo_ dirakx1, yes
16:17 a lot of times
16:17 dirakx1 np.
16:17 garycmartin pflores: I'm almost done with my pass for Touch related issues. Will be adding them to wiki later today.
16:18 dirakx1 pflores: I'0m not sure what you mean either.
16:18 gonzalo_ pflores, can you explain?
16:19 walterbender garycmartin: FWIW, I removed the canvas-scrolling feature from TA because it was too slow on XO h'ware.
16:19 pflores gonzalo_ I mean you (and your team) take TamTam porting, AC team takes other activities porting
16:20 garycmartin walterbender: Understood. BTW really like the new clamp style for some of the blocks :)
16:20 pflores gonzalo_ that's the idea martin raised
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16:20 walterbender garycmartin: thx... it actually makes the underlying code simpler too.
16:20 dirakx1 pflores: I don't see why we cannot work as team.
16:20 i.e..AC + OLPC.
16:21 for instance we can make patches for other activities that OLPC is maintaining like browse.
16:21 walterbender pflores: we should be more inclusive than just AC and OLPC :)
16:21 gonzalo_ pflores, i prefer work with the maintainers
16:21 walterbender gonzalo_: +1
16:22 gonzalo_ pflores, that is the reason I wanted to know what is the position of alsroot by example
16:22 pflores walterbender of course
16:22 gonzalo_ pflores, I don't think we finish maintaining a branch for the port
16:22 is a good idea
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16:23 gonzalo_ pflores, right now we are interchanging patches, but the maintainers take the reponsability as usual
16:23 pflores gonzalo_ +1. I'm just referring to the tasks division we made in eduJAM
16:24 gonzalo_ pflores, about TamTam, I think is a big task, probably one of the more difficult activities to port
16:25 pflores, i would like to help, but if the maintainer don't want to take the patches, we have a problem
16:25 cjl and also one of the very important activities
16:25 pflores gonzalo_ +1, even more if we want to add a piano keyboard as martin wants!
16:25 gonzalo_ pflores, yes
16:25 dirakx1 the take on it has to be similar as danielf did with speak..first re-aranging the code..slashing all that is not needed, etc..and then the port.
16:25 gonzalo_ dirakx1, i agree
16:26 dirakx1, would be great have danielf patch reviewed and included
16:26 dirakx1 gonzalo_: yeah I'm no it.
16:26 on*
16:26 alsroot gonzalo_: on case/activity basis. (1) right now, my dev focus is in SN/SD, so I can't support gtk2 and gtk3 code base at the same time. (2) if there people who are willing to help w/ gtk3, there is a qustion what to do; (3) for my self, I'm prefere being stuck to gtk2 by default until it will be clear that deploymnets are switching to gtk3; (4) in the rest cases, I'm -1 for abusing gtk2 code and
16:26 stop developing useful features there
16:26 danielf dirakx1: alright, thanks.
16:26 gonzalo_ dirakx1, great :)
16:27 manuq there is also a patch from Agus for the port of ImageViewer
16:27 dirakx1 manuq: I've tested and reviewed seems o.k..but I think alsroot is the maintainer of imageviewer.
16:28 manuq dirakx1: yep, thanks
16:28 dirakx1: did you answer the email?
16:28 alsroot dirakx1: manuq: will sort out my inbox later this week
16:28 dirakx1 alsroot:can you give access to flavio/aguz to create a gtk3 branch ?.
16:28 alsroot: thanks.
16:28 manuq: nop :).
16:28 manuq dirakx1: ok
16:29 alsroot: ok, thanks
16:29 gonzalo_ dirakx1, i don't think creasting branches without maintainer review is a good idea in the long run
16:29 dirakx1, and is not because flavio or aguz
16:29 dirakx1 gonzalo_: probably is better that the maintainer reviews it, sure.
16:30 gonzalo_ alsroot, i understand your position, we need think about how resolve it, because we need gtk3 activities in the near future
16:31 cjl Would TamTam in particular benefit from ne wfeatures in GTK3?
16:31 gonzalo_ cjl, more than other activities
16:31 cjl I thought so
16:31 Touch stuff?
16:31 gonzalo_ cjl, yes
16:32 cjl Obviuosly important in a "musical instrument"
16:32 gonzalo_ cjl, +1
16:33 cjl I don't think alsroot should be distracted from the important work he is doing on SD/SN.
16:33 But I do think TamTam should have a GTK3 version being developed.
16:33 gonzalo_ cjl, maybe somebody can be co-maintainer of the gtk3 activities?
16:34 garycmartin needs to take a look at simplepiano from gonzalo_
16:34 alsroot heh, porting TamTam to gtk3. well, I maybe right new OS kernel instead?
16:34 gonzalo_ garycmartin, multitouch is almost working :)
16:35 alsroot, I don't understand
16:35 dirakx1 gonzalo_: nice is there a code that i can take a look at?
16:35 quidam hi everybody
16:36 danielf quidam: hi
16:36 quidam question: is a on screen keyboard being worked on?
16:36 alsroot gonzalo_: TamTam is a beast, porting it to gtk3 will either doing fragile fast work or, well, spend much time
16:36 cjl alsroot has a lot on his plate, and needs to prioritize his time, it is understandable that activity porting is not high on his list, but that can't stop progress that is needed.
16:36 garycmartin gonzalo_: is the keyboard code/design self contained enough to use as a component in other (TamTam) activities? I'd rather we polished one good keyboard design for use in musical activities (and perhaps a new activity that is just all about the keyboard).
16:37 gonzalo_ dirakx1, i will send a mail to sugar-devel when i finish implementing multitouch
16:37 cjl quidam: Maliit or do you mean 88 key peiano keyboard?
16:37 dirakx1 gonzalo_: ok looking forward to it.
16:37 gonzalo_ garycmartin, yes, is a gtk widget
16:37 quidam no, I mean a computer keyboard for the screen
16:37 gonzalo_ alsroot, i was wondering that :(
16:38 garycmartin quidam: Yes we are working on an OSK (Maliit based)
16:38 gonzalo_ dirakx1, garycmartin the gtk2 version is here http://git.sugarlabs.org/simplepiano
16:38 quidam garycmartin: ok, because I've been reviewing the accessibility patches in dextrose, and the keyboard in there should better be dropped
16:38 gonzalo_ dirakx1, garycmartin the sound is horrible, but is only to test it
16:38 danielf quidam, garycmartin: In Uruguay we already have an accessibility keyboard
16:39 quidam danielf: yes, that one
16:40 dirakx1 gonzalo_: thanks
16:40 gonzalo_ dirakx1, garycmartin in fact i have pushed a patch to port to gtk3, but not the patch to support touch
16:40 danielf gonzalo_ : great, then I'll test your piano, would be cool having it with the touch screen :D
16:40 cjl I'd like to acknowledge teh work tha AC is doing to upstream it's Dextrose features.
16:41 quidam cjl: the more we upstream the better :)
16:41 gonzalo_ :)
16:41 garycmartin danielf: Yes I've seen the accessibility keyboard, but it's designed for mouse use and not a touch screen (among other required features).
16:41 dirakx1 quidam: +1
16:42 gonzalo_ ok, guys, the meeting has been longer than expected, any other issue to talk?
16:42 cjl I think it should probably be a topic for the next dev meeting on a reviewing fast-tracking process to land them (or change them) in an ordwerly fashion
16:42 danielf garycmartin: yeah, and it isn't well integrated with Sugar
16:42 garycmartin danielf: Agreed.
16:43 quidam btw, and now that I mentioned accessibility, I'll be attending guadec in a few days, and the accessibility camp that will be held there. the organizer wants to discuss sugar accessibility there if possible
16:43 gonzalo_ quidam, manuq will be there too (and erikos)
16:43 quidam with at least erikos and me... manuq you in?
16:43 cjl acccessibility features also seem to be key to automated testing processes.
16:44 gonzalo_ quidam, will be great if you can look at accesibility improvements we can do in sugar
16:44 quidam cjl: yup, and UI usability analysis. Australia is very interested on all three
16:44 gonzalo_ quidam, great
16:45 quidam gonzalo_: both the orca main developer and the GNOME a11y team manager are also interested in that
16:45 cjl has concerns about accessibility loss with an OSK (no haptic elements).
16:45 gonzalo_ quidam, good
16:46 ok, I need run, anything more you need talk?
16:46 cjl blind kids can't touch type with an OSK
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16:46 silbe cjl: that's a concern just with the current state of hardware, not with the software. Not every piece of hardware is well suited for every one
16:46 cjl silbe true
16:46 gonzalo_ cjl, accesibility needs different solutions for every case
16:47 garycmartin cjl: They can if it speaks to you as you hold you finger over the keys
16:47 cjl Well, as long as theure is a USB port, there is an alternative
16:47 garycmartin: Interesting
16:47 silbe cjl: I'm more concerned about the lack of adaptability of the software, e.g. the lack of keyboard support. Ever tried navigating in Sugar without a pointing device? Many people have problems with those.
16:47 gonzalo_ silbe, +1
16:48 garycmartin cjl: And a simple thin overlay with patterns where the virtual keys appear can be very useful.
16:48 silbe gonzalo_: +1. Adaptability is key to accessibility.
16:48 cjl Silbe, Sugar uses very few accelerators 9if any)
16:48 quidam also, not being disabled you make many wrong assumptions on what is actually needed
16:48 cjl accelerators ar ea L10n mess though
16:48 danielf_ cjl, +1
16:48 walterbender danielf: when do you want to talk about Turtle Art?
16:49 cjl quidam which is why engaging with a11y experts is crucial.
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16:50 danielf_ walterbender: after the meeting we can talk about TA, but we are already delaying the meeting
16:50 silbe quidam: yeah, that's quite visible, e.g. in the UY accessibility patch set. :-/
16:50 gonzalo_ we can end now :)
16:50 i need go out
16:50 silbe +1, let's finish for today
16:50 gonzalo_ 5
16:50 4
16:51 danielf_ 3
16:51 silbe 2
16:51 garycmartin 1
16:52 cjl mumbles 0.5
16:52 manuq 0
16:52 :)
16:53 thanks all! see you later
16:53 danielf_ #endmeeting
16:53 cjl waiting for gonzalo_ to end the suspense
16:54 danielf_ is now known as danielf
16:55 walterbender danielf: I need to disappear for an hour or so, so I will look for you later.
16:55 cjl still waiting for gonzalo_ to end the suspense with an #endmeeting
16:55 pflores garycmartin so when will we have a design meeting?
16:55 danielf walterbender: ok, see you later at #sugar
16:55 garycmartin pflores: :)
16:56 pflores: we haven't announced it yet. I'm guessing we'll try for a day next week.
16:56 gonzalo_ #endmeeting
16:56 meeting Meeting ended Tue Jul 10 16:56:46 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:56 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-10T15:05:17.html
16:56 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]12-07-10T15:05:17
16:56 gonzalo_ :)
16:56 cjl thank you gonzalo_
16:57 quidam, the a11y issue is obviously one for the new cycle of design team meetings garycmartin mentioned on the sugar-dev list.
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16:59 pflores garycmartin ok, thx!
17:00 cjl pflores: Did you eveer try reaching Flipo by e-mail?
17:01 pflores cjl no, I thought you were to put him in touch with us?
17:02 cjl anyway, I should know better where we're standing re:this, as I know flavio and dirakx1 made some work on this
17:03 cjl maybe we should meet (with gonzalo_ too) in a few days to analyze this
17:03 cjl pflores: I gave you his contact info, I did not reach out for you.
17:03 I can send an intro e-mail if you'd like
17:04 pflores sure, tamTam is not going to be an easy quick fix :-(
17:04 and this is the time to rethink some things about it anyway.
17:05 pflores cjl right, let's have this conversation 1st and then we see how to send this mail
17:05 cjl ok
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17:10 dnarvaez manuq: I pushed what I have so far, still getting the forall not sure why, maybe the wrong gtk is picked up or maybe I'm missing some other patch
17:10 wrong channel, bah
17:10 manuq dnarvaez: ok, I'll pull
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