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#sugar-meeting, 2012-06-19

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14:14 gonzalo_ hello ClaudiaU ! can you imagine what I will ask you? :)
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15:03 gonzalo_ ok,is people comming to the meeting?
15:04 silbe is here for the meeting, caspar as well
15:04 manuq hello
15:04 erikos <erikos!~erikos@e178075079.adsl.alicedsl.de> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:04 erikos #startmeeting
15:04 meeting Meeting started Tue Jun 19 15:04:47 2012 UTC. The chair is erikos. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:04 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:04 erikos hey everybody
15:05 who is around for the dev meeting?
15:05 silbe and caspar still are
15:05 gonzalo_ is here
15:05 manuq sees silbe, caspar, gonzalo_, and himself :)
15:05 gonzalo_ garycmartin, hello....
15:05 benzea unusual as it may be ... I am here :-)
15:05 erikos hey benzea
15:05 garycmartin gonzalo_: Hi
15:05 silbe benzea: nice to see you again!
15:06 erikos ok, let's start
15:06 manuq benzea: hi!
15:06 caspar hi
15:06 m_anish is listening
15:06 erikos #Introducing new contributors
15:06 m_anish erikos, #topic :P
15:06 dogi is lurking
15:06 erikos anyone around that is new to the ground and wants to introduce himself?
15:07 #topic Introducing new contributors
15:07 m_anish caspar, hi!
15:07 humitos <humitos!~humitos@201-213-135-73.net.prima.net.ar> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:07 cjl waves
15:07 humitos ok
15:07 erikos s/ground/crowd
15:08 caspar I am.  My name is Caspar, working for Sascha.  I will do some reviews, at least I am hired to do so :-))
15:08 gonzalo_ caspar, any area in particular?
15:08 erikos caspar: are you part of activity central?
15:09 caspar sugar, especially gtk3-migration
15:10 gonzalo_ caspar, and migration of activities?
15:10 slpz <slpz!~slpz@159.Red-88-12-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:10 caspar activity central: indirectly
15:10 cjl caspar are you going to GUADEC?
15:11 asks because there will be a GTK3 porting team there
15:11 caspar GUADEC: didn't intend to yet.
15:12 erikos caspar: and you do have experience in gtk, python?
15:12 caspar: gobject-introspection
15:14 caspar I have some experience with both gtk and python, but that is not that important, IMO
15:15 erikos caspar: ok, and what is important in your opinion?
15:16 btw, anyone else that wants to introduce himself?
15:16 manuq caspar: welcome
15:16 danielf <danielf!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:17 manuq danielf: hi
15:17 danielf everybody: ^^
15:17 manuq danielf: do you want to introduce yourself?
15:17 erikos hey danielf
15:18 caspar I will not code, I just need to understand the changes
15:18 danielf manuq: ok, How do I do it?
15:19 manuq danielf: just tell us about you, what are your interests?
15:20 erikos danielf: just tell us what your interests are, what you will work on
15:20 cjl danielf: list your countrys ISO-3166 code and the ISO-639 codes of any languages you speak
15:20 jsut kidding
15:20 erikos danielf: and maybe where you are from :)
15:20 gonzalo_ is in a long yoga session this week
15:20 erikos caspar: ok, sounds all a bit bizarre to me, tbh
15:21 gonzalo_ caspar, yeah, may be you can start understanding the problem
15:21 caspar, formal reviews can be done with a script ....
15:21 caspar, no ofense
15:21 silbe erikos: I'm pretty confident he'll do as well as I do reviewing GTK related patches. I've known him for a long time.
15:22 danielf manuq, erikos, cjl: ok, my name's Daniel Francis, I'm from Uruguay, (contributor in CeibalJAM)
15:22 caspar gonzalo_: none taken.
15:22 manuq danielf: how old are you?
15:23 danielf I'm thirteen
15:23 manuq danielf: you are doing the GT3 porting of Terminal, right?
15:23 gonzalo_ danielf, great to see you here
15:23 erikos danielf: fantastic, it is great to have you on board here
15:23 benzea gonzalo_: I do think it is possible to do code review, even without fully understanding everything; you can find weird things, and look things up if they don't make sense right away
15:24 danielf manuq: yes, now working in the DragAndDrop/Clipboard utility
15:24 cjl danielf welcome aboard
15:25 danielf cjl: thanks
15:25 manuq danielf: so you are the same Daniel Francis that I know :)
15:25 gonzalo_ benzea, ok, will see
15:25 manuq danielf: great to see you here
15:26 benzea gonzalo_: yeah
15:26 gonzalo_ benzea, my point is, probably is better work with the code before starting to review code
15:27 erikos silbe: and yourself, you don't want to do reviews anymore?
15:27 silbe erikos: we're both going to do reviews
15:29 danielf: welcome to the team!
15:29 benzea gonzalo_: true, one needs to learn the codebase; and one way to do that is to actually write patches and fix problems. And I do hope that caspar will do that :-)
15:30 erikos silbe: as long as review and ack are two different things, caspar is frre to review code of course
15:31 caspar I will not ACK, just review.
15:32 cjl likes the idea of apprenticeships and mentoring into the greater mysteries fo Sugar :-)
15:32 erikos caspar: good job you got then, no trouble with reponsability ;p
15:32 gonzalo_ silbe, caspar, should be great if you can review the work in activities too, in particular the activities maintained by AC http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Acti[…]ate_of_Activities
15:33 erikos gonzalo_: good point
15:34 cjl gonzalo_: Lots of work to do there, good training ground
15:34 caspar erikos: I was asked to join a few days ago.  I have many other things to handle so I will start with reviews.  I didn't say anything about code contributions and other tasks in the future.
15:35 silbe gonzalo_: that's something we'll need to discuss later, when we have a better idea of how much work reviewing Glucose patches for the upcoming GTK3 port will be. The latter takes priority. But we will help even on the activity side if it's possible, of course.
15:36 erikos btw, manuq and myself we discussed maintainership so we can split up the load, from his contributions it makes sense to get him on board as a maintainer to sugar-artwork and sugar-toolkit-gtk3
15:37 benzea erikos: makes sense
15:38 erikos benzea: yeah, good to have you here today as another artwork-maintainer
15:38 benzea yeah, was just wondering whether I am still on the list :-)
15:39 erikos benzea: of course you can decide, if you want to take a silence maintainership for example ;p
15:40 manuq should I start ccing artwork patches to both of you?
15:40 erikos manuq: for me is fine if they go onto the ml
15:40 benzea hm, then I would actually see them all (I don't follow the list much ...)
15:41 manuq erikos: yes, to:sugar-devel cc: erikos is what I've been doing
15:41 erikos manuq: with your knowledge in the previous port parts you are of course as well needed by the shell port
15:42 manuq: actually i think you could help maintaining there as well ;p
15:42 manuq I'm glad to help in that front
15:42 erikos silbe: and comments from your side, re adding manu as maintainer to those modules?
15:42 manuq benzea: sure, I will start ccing you as well
15:43 erikos benzea: great, if you then have a spare moment, your commenst are always welcome
15:44 benzea erikos: sure, shouldn't be too much work to have a quick look, though I have to admit that I don't know the gtk3 theme that well ...
15:44 erikos benzea: ok, we can change that ;p
15:44 silbe erikos: it's your choice. I'm not a maintainer for sugar-toolkit-gtk3 and haven't reviewed sugar-artwork patches so far (they're too deep in GTK mystery land).
15:44 erikos benzea: actually are you going to GUADEC this year?
15:45 silbe: and about the shell (sugar module)?
15:45 benzea erikos: nah, I can't take the time off from this internship I am doing :-(
15:45 erikos benzea: sigh
15:46 benzea I would be more likely to go somewhere for a weekend ....
15:46 silbe erikos: Having many people who can ack' patches muddles the waters. It leads to either disagreements and confusement resulting from one person ack'ing the patch and the other refusing it and / or stalled patches because nobody feels responsible.
15:46 erikos benzea: we can see if we can do a camp this year at some point
15:47 benzea we'll see
15:47 silbe s/confusement/confusion/
15:47 erikos silbe: sure there is this risk, but from my experience this can work
15:48 silbe: we had it like that before and it was less pressure for everyone
15:48 silbe: of course if would be 10 people maintaining...;p
15:48 silbe erikos: I'm less confident about it than you are.
15:49 erikos silbe: you can think about it, don't want to overrun you here
15:49 dnarvaez from a new contributor perspective it would be cool if patches was replied to quickly, more maintainers will likely help that
15:49 danielf has quit IRC
15:50 gonzalo_ dnarvaez, +1
15:50 erikos is remembered of dnarvaez' open patch
15:50 dnarvaez erikos it was not my intention :P
15:50 danielf <danielf!~danielf@r186-50-183-212.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:50 erikos :)
15:51 silbe dnarvaez: quick review replies don't depend on the person doing the review to have ack "rights". quite the contrary, the more reviews are done before one of the maintainers looks at the patch, the more likely it is to be in good shape.
15:52 dnarvaez silbe quick non-ack reviews are cool too, but quick ack is more imo, especially if you are new
15:52 gonzalo_ silbe, but waiting for only one person with "rights" to ack is not healty for a project
15:52 caspar how many people do ack?
15:53 gonzalo_ right now erikos and silbe, right?
15:53 silbe dnarvaez: Caspar and I have reviewed your gnome-keyring related patch today, BTW. We did the review offline and will reply via email later. Thanks for your patch, it's looking good, just a few improvements on the non-code side would be useful.
15:53 erikos gonzalo_: yes
15:53 gonzalo_ in the past was tomeu too
15:53 dnarvaez silbe awesome thanks
15:54 erikos gonzalo_: past-past ;p
15:54 manuq dnarvaez: good to see you here, maybe you can introduce yourself next meeting, seems that your interests cover development environments :)
15:54 dnarvaez manuq will do :)
15:54 gonzalo_ erikos, it's true
15:54 cjl notes tah buildbot is back in operation, no L10n chokes
15:55 erikos cjl: yeah!!!
15:55 dnarvaez: thanks a lot for that work!
15:55 cjl erikos, thanks for the branching, I think it was the key
15:56 erikos cjl: yeah, we are getting there, thanks for all that hard work
15:56 dnarvaez cjl builds should be triggered automatically now
15:56 erikos :)
15:56 cjl will slowly feed in some more L10n commits to finish off rolling sugar-base strings into sugar-toolkit-gtk3
15:56 erikos dnarvaez: is it public already?
15:57 cjl http://176.58.108.37:8010/waterfall
15:57 dnarvaez erikos it's still on my machine, waiting for bernie to give me root on the machines we will use
15:57 erikos perfect!
15:58 great, I think it was nice to have a bit of a more informal meeting today
15:58 without to many hard topics on the agenda
15:59 cjl hard topics will come :-)\
15:59 erikos a lot of improvements those days, on many areas, infrastructure, people, translations...
15:59 and I am currently working on the shell port myself, so stay tuned for patches
16:00 manuq erikos: interesting!
16:00 gonzalo_ good, we need more hands (and brains oc course :) )
16:00 cjl erikos, please ping me if you know of a commit tha twill cahnge strings, I want to keep a close eye on the Poolte branch as it begins to diverge
16:01 erikos cjl: yes, I will do my best to do so
16:01 cjl thanks
16:01 Just the first one or tow
16:02 silbe erikos: looking forward to your patches.
16:02 erikos great, so let's close here
16:03 ---no action items today---
16:03 ajay raises his hand.
16:03 erikos school finishes early!
16:03 ajay: yes, please
16:03 was so close to finish the meeting :)
16:03 ajay erikos: any news regarding http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/3605 ?
16:04 erikos ajay: if we would have more maintainers..., sigh
16:04 ajay erikos: i am sorry erikos.. I didn't quite understand :\
16:05 erikos ajay: sorry, I was half kidding
16:05 ajay erikos: :D
16:06 erikos: so perhaps I should send to silbe/manuq for final ack? (Just querying.. no offense meant)
16:06 erikos ajay: sure, silbe can review/ack
16:07 silbe ajay: as mentioned before, I'm not convinced we're not opening ourselves up for a race conditon here. We should figure out why the mountpoint property is missing in this particular case, instead of working around the potential lack but still keeping the property around.
16:07 erikos would be appreciated from my side
16:08 ok, you can sort this out after the meeting, I preume
16:08 3
16:09 starts short countdonw
16:09 short meeting = short countdown
16:09 m_anish 2.000000000001 (damn floats)
16:09 silbe 1.90
16:09 m_anish :P
16:09 ajay 1.00000001
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16:10 erikos knows now what people do in their free time
16:10 0
16:10 #endmeeting
16:10 meeting Meeting ended Tue Jun 19 16:10:14 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:10 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-19T15:04:47.html
16:10 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]12-06-19T15:04:47
16:10 erikos thanks for joining!
16:10 cjl ERR: Cannot divide by zero
16:10 silbe for the newcomers: the purpose of the countdown is to ensure we don't close the meeting before everybody is still typing.
16:10 m_anish cjl, lol
16:10 ajay cjl: :D
16:10 garycmartin garycmartin: thanks folks!
16:11 cjl hasta la vista
16:11 silbe so we'd start with the number of people who participated in the meeting and everybody counts down by one.
16:11 caspar bye
16:11 caspar has quit IRC
16:11 humitos bye
16:11 benzea good bye
16:12 silbe have a nice $daytime everyone!
16:12 m_anish goes to find some food
16:13 silbe m_anish: bon apo
16:14 m_anish silbe, thx
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16:18 m_anish hmm, intel came out with an x86 based smartphone running android. ARM has competition.
16:21 silbe m_anish: no serious competition, though ;)
16:21 m_anish silbe, well i'd be very interested to know how they got to the ARM power consumption point
16:22 erikos has quit IRC
16:22 m_anish silbe, intel has many billons lying around and it wudn't want to lose dominance of the semiconductor industry
16:22 cjl remembers batterie size on old brick cell-phones :-)
16:22 erikos <erikos!~erikos@e178075079.adsl.alicedsl.de> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:22 m_anish xolo.in (is what /me is talking about)
16:23 and strangely, its been released first in India, where people are generally _very_ picky abt buying expensive stuff
16:23 silbe m_anish: isn't Intel still manufacturing ARM processors? i960 and the like?
16:23 m_anish silbe, i don't think so
16:23 silbe interesting
16:23 m_anish silbe, they could buy a lot of IP's from ARM, but I dont think they would be building an ARM 'processor'
16:25 anyways, interesting times ahead... at the time when everyone building anything smaller than a netbook seems to be moving to arm, intel comes out with this
16:25 s/everyone/everyone (including OLPC)/ ;)
16:25 silbe well, they could try the SoC market, though it's pretty crowded by now. But an x86 based processor in a small mobile device? I'm curious how large the loss will be...
16:26 m_anish silbe, dont think the SoC market that uses x86 is particularly crowded, ARM, PPC is another story though
16:26 silbe m_anish: I meant the ARM based one
16:26 m_anish silbe, ah right!
16:27 silbe, well, that's what they seem to be doing, an alternative SoC to ARM :-)
16:27 silbe, i'll be visiting a mobile store soon to see if I can play around with it
16:28 silbe m_anish: have fun!
16:28 m_anish silbe, yep, same to you, ttyl!
16:28 bernie m_anish, silbe: there's nothing inherently more power efficient in the arm instruction set. it's just that the x86 chips are specialized for the PC market which asks for performance and features rather than power efficiency
16:29 silbe bernie: I tend to disagree, but maybe todays processor are indeed complex enough that it doesn't make that much of a difference.
16:29 m_anish bernie, that seems to be changing, the intel chip spec sheet talks of 'power islands' in the chip and idle-with-CPU-off, i guess they threw time, money and effort on that front
16:29 slpz has quit IRC
16:30 m_anish silbe, CPU is definitely the most power-hungry component in an SoC even now, but that is slowly reducing in percent, as more complex IP's crop up (for eg: an 1080p decoder/encoder, etc.)
16:31 bernie silbe: yes, exactly. the exact ISA of a processor really doesn't matter all the much. and besides, x86 has one of the smallest code size of all modern processors.
16:31 m_anish silbe, i think on a PPC chip I worked on, it was about 30-50% of the overall power consumption of the chip (depending on CPU usage)
16:31 bernie silbe: Compare x86 linux binaries with binaries for risc processors and you'll be surprised. In some cases it's even 2x worse.
16:32 silbe: larger code => more code cache misses => slower execution & more power use
16:32 silbe: but arm is also pretty compact, especially with is one uses the thumb instruction set. we
16:33 silbe: we're talking about very *minor* differences here. what matters the most is the ability to dynamically turn off units and slow down clocks at runtime
16:34 m_anish bernie, silbe what I realized was that there is a lot of elbow-room in optimizing the power consumption of an SoC with innovation. People tend to focus more on changing semiconductor gate-size IMO, whereas one can really work on optimizing the way things work inside an SoC. (I cannot even begin to describe how bad the main bus arbitration was in some Freescale chips :-) )
16:34 bernie, +1
16:34 (re last comment)
16:34 silbe bernie: I was assuming similar hardware capabilities, esp. regarding clock gating and the likes
16:35 cjl bernie amybe for a future dev meeting you'd like to write up and float your idea about a separate L10n branch structure to reduce those pesky Pootle commits in the logs.
16:36 m_anish oops should not have said that on a logged channel ;-)
16:36 cjl I have some reservations given the additional human intervention needed and the desire to have langs (e.g. Spanish) early in dev build testing.
16:37 But I will go with the consensus as long as it works in the end of the day.
16:37 bernie m_anish: yup. sometimes it's an art of distributing functions among units that can perform them more cheaply than a generic processor. the amiga mastered this in the '80s with its custom multimedia coprocessors.
16:38 cjl: yup, i'd love to.
16:39 cjl bernie: I know there would be some interest in having L10n commits better vetted for build-breaking issues.
16:39 m_anish bernie, agree! Its about how smart the other IP's are in the SoC, so they don't keep the power-hungry CPU busy all the time. Its also about how the main system bus policies are, and (increasingly) about modeling how the software is going to use the chip and optimizing it in that way. Like I said, lots of elbow-room people don't particularly pay attention to, because the damn gate sizes keep reducing changing the baseline ;-)
16:41 bernie cjl: what alternatives were discussed so far? my fist thought would be pushing to a "pootle" branch and making the buildbot make an additional build from it
16:41 cjl: then, make the maintainer merge in from pootle from time to time, when the build is green
16:41 cjl bernie: BTW, sorry in advance, but I plan to do more commits to sugar-toolkit-gtk3, (rolling in existing sugar-base strings), so I will be "spamming #sugar via CIA-99. :-(
16:41 bernie cjl: and if people want to test the translations faster, they can pick the builds from the buildbot. we just need to make it crank out the rpms
16:42 cjl: argh!!! :-)
16:42 cjl: why not just one big commit?
16:42 dnarvaez pootle -> gerrit -> buildbot -> push would be awesome
16:42 cjl bernie with the buildbot working, I will try another big commit today.  At least I can get fast feedback
16:43 bernie m_anish: i wish linux desktops had a way to account power to processes so i'd know which ones i should kick from my system.
16:43 cjl I do not think it was the mass pushes tha caused the issue anyway wit haym, ID and km
16:43 bernie m_anish: right now, compiz is where i'd point my finger to. i often see it churn in top.
16:44 m_anish bernie, the closest you'd get to that is probably powertop
16:44 it counts wakes/sec and estimates power acc. to that
16:45 bernie cjl: yeah. smaller commits do not help reduce breakage. they may make it user to bisect when it's unclear where a regression originated, but for translations i can't see how it wouldn't be very evident
16:46 cjl bernie I was t ohonor silbe's request to minimize big pushes, but I'll try one mor enow and follow closely
16:46 f_36 has left #sugar-meeting
16:47 cjl And I will (as always) be reviewing pofilter checks to look for obvious build-breakers 9printf and mismatched ternimal newline)
16:47 dnarvaez cjl why big pushes are an issue?
16:47 bernie cjl, silbe: the "change one thing a time" mantra exists to ease reviews and regression hunting, both of which don't apply to strings.
16:47 cjl I asked the Pootel (Translate Toolkit) folks for a special pofilter chek for mismatched terminal newline, no action yet.
16:48 dnarvaez: I am not convinced they really are wit hstrings.
16:48 dnarvaez same here :)
16:48 bernie silbe: these small commits from pootle are a huge nuisance in the git changelog. they're mostly noise and hide the real commits
16:48 cjl string pushes are massively parllel, not serial
16:49 The key I think is getting quick feedback on a given lang that may have an issue.
16:49 m_anish -> afk
16:49 cjl That lang would have an issue whether ciommitted singly or in bulk and tracking it only requres the lang code.
16:53 silbe bernie: yeah, I rather like per-app power consumption breakdown view the Android has. powertop is a useful tool on stock Linux, but doesn't really compare.
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16:55 silbe cjl: I think it was bernie requesting that (or maybe walterbender?), but I certainly agree that minimizing commits as much as sensible (i.e. without introducing too much of a lag) would be a good thing.
16:56 cjl silbe ok, I thought it was your request.
16:56 I'd like to try one more carefull ywatched big commit today.
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16:57 cjl I've done enough individual ones (with buildbot success) to have some confidence in it.
16:57 bernie silbe: yes the per-app power stats are AWESOME. android really has cool geeky features that normal users can understand
16:57 silbe: i wish sugar was the same way
16:58 cjl And wit hthe automatic triggers working in buildbot (thanks dnarvaez ), I will have feedback in about 12 minutes.
16:58 But first I need to do some reviewing and string transfers in Pootle before I try it.
16:59 silbe bernie: +1 there's a lot we could learn from Android (though of course with the risk of violating software patents, like Android itself is doing).
17:00 bernie: but right now, I'm glad to even keep Sugar working in the face of major upstream changes. We're too few developers and doing too much ourselves (in Sugar).
17:01 bernie silbe: we can violate sw patents even if we write code from a cellar without windows
17:02 (and internet connection of course0
17:02 cjl bernie, only if you try to distribute it.
17:03 The whole point of patents is disclosure in exchange for exclusive economic rights.
17:05 silbe bernie: sure. but it's a lot easier if you take direct inspiration from products done by software giants :)
17:08 cjl bernie, So why have th etop and side bars of wiki.sl.o disappearred for me?
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17:39 bernie silbe: indeed. talent imitates, genius steals.
17:42 about cjl's problem with the wiki... some users had the skin still set to "shikiwiki", which is no longer supported. i changed them all to "vector"
17:42 cjl thanks bernie
17:43 For a while ther eI was typing raw wiki URLs to get where I needed :-)
17:43 bernie cjl: it's that easy with mediawiki:
17:43 php maintenance/userOptions.php skin --old shikiwiki --new vector
17:43 cjl: this is what i consider a maintainable webapp
17:43 cjl slightly scaed tha the knew how to navigate with raw wiki URLs
17:43 bernie haha
17:43 cjl s/scaed/scared/
17:44 So bernie, I hear they are changing MediaWiki to use Django. . .
17:44 plugs ears for scream
17:44 just kidding
17:45 bernie AAAARGH!!!
17:57 ClaudiaU gonzalo_:
17:58 I just received the first couple of sequences..
17:58 I am expecting 6 total
17:58 gonzalo_ ClaudiaU, ok
17:58 ClaudiaU I will have to start driving to the airport in a few minutes...
17:58 I will be able to pass them once I get there
17:59 gonzalo_ ClaudiaU, ok
18:33 silbe bernie: thx (I probably was affected as well, there were some warnings lately that sounded like what you fixed)
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