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| 21:08 | walterbender | hello all |
| 21:08 | can we have a quick SLOB show of hands | |
| 21:09 | apologies for being late... head in an emacs window :P | |
| 21:09 | icarito | waves |
| 21:09 | CanoeBerry | hi |
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| 21:09 | alsroot | hi all |
| 21:10 | walterbender | hey adam... where are you? |
| 21:10 | CanoeBerry | cambridge / olpcf |
| 21:10 | GeraldA | hello all |
| 21:10 | walterbender | we have a quorum :) |
| 21:10 | #start-meeting | |
| 21:10 | meeting | Meeting started Thu May 10 21:10:33 2012 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 21:10 | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting | |
| 21:10 | walterbender | is everyone up to speed re what was discussed last week? |
| 21:10 | CanoeBerry | cjb here too.. |
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| 21:11 | CanoeBerry | am not up to full-speed yet, but read the transcripts |
| 21:12 | walterbender | icarito, keynote2k, kaametza, and I spent some time yesterday discussing the local lab issue in more detail |
| 21:12 | cjl | waves |
| 21:12 | kaametza_ | hello all |
| 21:13 | GeraldA | I am up to speed |
| 21:13 | walterbender | It seems we are headed down a path whereby we don't try to force a square peg into a round hole. |
| 21:13 | cjl | +3.141526 |
| 21:13 | walterbender | the Local Lab concept is too difficult to administer in the context of the SFC |
| 21:13 | cjl | missed a digit there |
| 21:14 | walterbender | so we began looking at other options |
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| 21:14 | walterbender | SFC is a great vehicle for managing a project and acking a developer user community, but not managing and overseeing deployment |
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| 21:15 | walterbender | we are not the only project to come to this conclusion... Tony mentioned that mifos is also looking at alternative structures |
| 21:16 | http://www.mifos.org/ | |
| 21:17 | I am of the opinion that we need to set up a "New Co" or "New Org" to handle relationships with deployments. | |
| 21:17 | cjl | SFC is very software development oriented, It is after all their focus. |
| 21:17 | walterbender | But first we need to make sure we get a sense of what is desired and what is possible. |
| 21:18 | cjl: I think the s'ware development works fine within the SFC structure... it is everything that is difficult | |
| 21:18 | cjl | yes |
| 21:18 | walterbender | the SFC cannot take on a support contract, for example, as they have no way to provide oversight. |
| 21:19 | of course, New Org may find that difficult as well... we need to be realistic | |
| 21:19 | but the risk structure is better contained... it doesn't spill over to other projects | |
| 21:20 | cjl | This sounds a little bit like why there is an OLPCF and an OLPCA |
| 21:20 | walterbender | so my proposal is to move as quickly as possible to solicit from the community what they would want from a New Org and then... |
| 21:20 | cjl: exactly | |
| 21:20 | in fact OLPCA is not a 501C3 | |
| 21:21 | I am prepared (and Robert Fadel agreed to help) to do the heavy lifting to get something off the ground, but we need to be clear about what we want and what is possible. | |
| 21:21 | CanoeBerry | aside, i am part of an informal org that supports 6-7 microdeployments, and may seek to expand: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/ALEARN_Network |
| 21:22 | walterbender | I don't want to set expectations we cannot realize, but I am sure we can get closer to deployments than our current structure allows. |
| 21:22 | looks at Adam's link | |
| 21:22 | cjl | I wonder if we could learn some lessons from OLE |
| 21:23 | walterbender | ALEARN is the acronym from hell :) |
| 21:23 | CanoeBerry | yes, the name may have to go |
| 21:24 | walterbender | cjl: I'll speak to Dick Rowe ASAP to see how his org is structured. |
| 21:24 | CanoeBerry | i agree OLE is a model we need to emulate and/or work with |
| 21:24 | walterbender | CanoeBerry: is this more than a wiki page and people? Is there a formal org behind it? or is it a collection of orgs? |
| 21:25 | CanoeBerry | it's a strong network that meets every week, but it's not a 501(c)(3) or anything like that yet |
| 21:25 | walterbender | CanoeBerry: so it is not an organization that engages in contracts, etc. |
| 21:26 | CanoeBerry | not yet, tho there are discussion of (possibly) moving in this direction |
| 21:26 | cjl | OLE branches seem very deployment-logistics focused and I believe that is an element of what is needed. |
| 21:26 | Understandign their umbrella org and structure could be very helpful. | |
| 21:26 | walterbender | cjl: +1 |
| 21:27 | In any case, I would like to propose a series of actions: | |
| 21:27 | cjl | Related to deployment logistics, it would be unlike me not to mention L10n as an area where human capital is important |
| 21:28 | walterbender | #action: we solicit from the community things that would like from a New Org that have been difficult to achieve within the SFC framework |
| 21:28 | cjl | +1 |
| 21:28 | walterbender | #action: we look into existing orgs, e.g., OLE, from which we may model a New Org |
| 21:29 | cjl | +1 |
| 21:29 | walterbender | #action: we reconvene and pool our research results |
| 21:29 | cjl | +1, but we should put a schedule on that |
| 21:29 | walterbender | #action: if it seems rational and reasonable, we create New Org |
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| 21:30 | walterbender | cjl: Yes. We need to get moving in this... |
| 21:30 | icarito | I think it is a good idea to look over http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]r_Labs#Principles and see if we have been able to live up to these ideals - maybe as orientation for the path forward |
| 21:30 | alsroot | can we summarize (how it is understandable right now) the purpose for new org/com in a couple of sentences |
| 21:31 | cjl | alsroot, that depends somewhat on what people see as the needs, but Peru is an obvious example of where the SFC model has presented challenges. |
| 21:32 | walterbender | alsroot: It seems we have a problem as an organization in engaging in deployment. |
| 21:32 | alsroot: this is a structural issue | |
| 21:32 | alsroot: and it is not clear we can resolve it within the SFC framework | |
| 21:33 | alsroot: hence the desire to look at alternatives | |
| 21:33 | alsroot: I don't know if we can pull it off, but we should investigate | |
| 21:34 | icarito: re your question, I think the place we have fallen short is the "goods" | |
| 21:34 | icarito | walterbender, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]r_Labs#Principles came from a cooperative model, right? |
| 21:34 | walterbender | icarito: I don't know what you mean |
| 21:35 | cjl | Peru is not the only example, I think that there may be other places where local groups fall under the radar of OLPCA support, or may want to do something unique. |
| 21:35 | walterbender | cjl: Adam's list encompasses some... |
| 21:36 | alsroot | more or less understand the issues that SL Peru faces. my concern is that the call to community needs to be more formalized, eg, one of points is a possibility to provide some support/services to deploymets or so |
| 21:36 | icarito | walterbender, just asking about the origin of this particular set of principles |
| 21:36 | walterbender | icarito: when we started Sugar Labs, we had two goals: find a home for the software project and try to build a mechanism for growing local efforts |
| 21:37 | icarito: we have a nice home for the software in the SFC, but have run into a variety of issues re growing local initiatives | |
| 21:37 | icarito: it may be unrealistic to do the latter from within such an org... | |
| 21:38 | icarito: but I think it is worh looking again at alternatives | |
| 21:39 | alsroot: I agree that we need clarity... but I also am not 100% aware of the roadblocks people face. icarito has been quite outspoken, but few others have every expressed their concerns. | |
| 21:39 | so I'd like to solicit more input | |
| 21:40 | CanoeBerry | My own vision: existing groups already doing this hard work {OLE/ALEARN/SL/AC/Support Gang/OLPC SF/OLPC Australia/Waveplace/various Ceibals/ETC} do a far better job uniting around the exhausting/expensive/personal work supporting small-to-medium-sized deployments. Such collab won't be easy! But it's my personal dream, and that of many, as we know :) |
| 21:40 | cjb | is comfortable with an external org given that even the SFC thinks it's a good idea |
| 21:40 | icarito | yes it has been difficult to get local communities to express their needs |
| 21:41 | walterbender | icarito: and it is clear that there is not unanimity in those needs, even within one region |
| 21:41 | cjl | alsroot, yes, I think that we might need something that could (for example) quickly provide a customized PayPal link that goes to an "intended to support initiative X" account, For technica reasons, it may not be legally segregated, but donor inten tis registered an acted upon. |
| 21:42 | walterbender | CanoeBerry: and maybe those groups are enough and we need not establish New Org... but we keep hearing there there is a need for SL to play a more direct role. |
| 21:42 | cjl | Just as an example of the services tha might be needed. |
| 21:42 | walterbender | CanoeBerry: I need to understand what that role should be |
| 21:43 | CanoeBerry | yes |
| 21:43 | these groups are too scattered, and for a reason. uniting them won't be easy. but i hope others are willing to work with me to try ;) | |
| 21:44 | kaametza_ | shouldn't mentioned groups should find in SL a collaboration facilitator? |
| 21:44 | icarito | CanoeBerry, we've always been ready to collaborate and have looked at Sugar Labs as a decentralized framework to do so |
| 21:44 | walterbender | kaametza_: maybe... I would think so, but on occasion, I have been told to butt out as well. |
| 21:45 | alsroot | one thing for sure, such new org should not try to repeat/replace orgs like (I know about) AC/Ceibals/pyeduca. in mymind is should a center to coordinate things like crowdfunding; provide some experts' help to setup local micro/small (maybe medium) deployements. but do it in more reliable way than just an .org |
| 21:45 | cjl | kaametza We do that with mailing lists and wikis already |
| 21:45 | alsroot | ..one thing for sure for me |
| 21:46 | walterbender | alsroot: I don't think reliable deployments can happen from afar... |
| 21:46 | alsroot: but resources for reliable deployments might be augemented from afar | |
| 21:47 | alsroot: so I agree that we need to work with those existing orgs on the ground | |
| 21:47 | CanoeBerry | olpcMAP.net is one such decentralized framework, and an amazing one, but i believe we can do better |
| 21:47 | icarito | there is a need to share best practices and methodologies for deployment and articulating directed resources would help achieve this |
| 21:48 | alsroot | walterbender: yup, I meant that such new org needs to provide some reliable help for [maybe not reliable] deploemnts (in my mind, it should a bunch of micro/small deployemnts that can't be relibale because totally community based) |
| 21:49 | walterbender | icarito: we can share best practices without setting up a New Org |
| 21:49 | kaametza_ | what deployments (in general) are lacking today is to be able to get formal support from the community |
| 21:49 | walterbender | kaametza_: that is at least the case in your corner |
| 21:49 | cjl | kaametza_ local community or global community? |
| 21:50 | walterbender | kaametza_: I haven't heard the same issue raised elsewhere, but that is not to say it is not an issue |
| 21:50 | icarito | walterbender, if it will be possible to direct resources to deployment projects, it will also be possible to set some standards for this |
| 21:51 | kaametza_ | cjl: a bit of both i guess |
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| 21:52 | kaametza_ | walterbender: +1 software support may only be a part of what deployments need |
| 21:52 | cjl | One element of this is possibly be a Sugar-based kickstarter, we should look int ocrowdfunding models as well. |
| 21:52 | kaametza_ | just talking out of Peru's experience |
| 21:53 | walterbender | cjl: would be nice to crowdfund translation into Igbo |
| 21:53 | cjl | yes |
| 21:53 | CanoeBerry | Related: an "honest" listing of sugar/olpc Deployment Services Consultancies is needed, at the bare minimum. If others would like to work with me to develop such a "live table" on wiki.sugarlabs.org or wherever please let me know. Even if it isn't full blown "Consumer Reports", it can accompany http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Deployment_Guide etc to make the impossible choices around deployment |
| 21:53 | a bit more sane. | |
| 21:54 | cjl | Haitian Kreyol is an example where the volunteer localization effort has not coalesced, that could be sweetened with some (minimal) funding. |
| 21:55 | alsroot | cjl: to rephrase my idea, I'm thinking about the following usecase: a couple of guys decided to do some work (like setting up sugar in a couple of school in their town) during one month. they need some funding, some help w/ procedures and expertise. all these reqs should be already setup andworking within the new org, ie, those guys just need to follow procedures and will get get to make this |
| 21:55 | micro deployemnt happened | |
| 21:55 | walterbender | alsroot: nice... and what I like is the scale... |
| 21:56 | alsroot: not overambitious... doable | |
| 21:56 | cjl | Deployment assistance in a box, (customize as needed)? |
| 21:57 | walterbender | CanoeBerry: we need to (perhaps) make a distinction between an OLPC deployment and a Sugar deployment. |
| 21:58 | kaametza_ | CanoeBerry: some time ago we (colombia + peru labs) worked on an initial draft of something like a sugar portfolio of services for deployments, just for refernce http://openetherpad.org/portafolio-azucar |
| 21:58 | cjl | I think a key element is stuff like a fundraising infrastructure, because i nthe end, something is going to cost money (hotspots, solar panels, teacher training, etc.) |
| 21:58 | icarito | The head of DIGETE (the central MoE entity that administers the laptop deployment) thought OLPC and Sugar Labs was the same organization |
| 21:58 | (in peru) | |
| 21:58 | walterbender | icarito: you mean Sandro? |
| 21:59 | icarito | walterbender, yes, he asked |
| 21:59 | walterbender | icarito: he didn't think that when I spoke with hi a few months ago. Wonder what has changed |
| 21:59 | cjl: money in and out and oversight | |
| 22:00 | icarito | yes Sandro some months ago, maybe before he talked with you |
| 22:00 | alsroot | cjl: fundsrising is important, but there is another point. such new org should be ready to take responsobility from not-so-reliable local micro/small deployemnt. take on its own, or pass it to another micro/small deployment from the same region |
| 22:01 | cjl | Another model to look at http://www.donorschoose.org/ |
| 22:01 | walterbender | alsroot: this is why I like the idea of small... then there is a chance to jump in when necessary |
| 22:01 | cjl | alsroot +1 |
| 22:01 | walterbender | alsroot: we cannot be responsible for others biting off more than we can chew |
| 22:01 | apologies for the metaphor | |
| 22:02 | we've consumed our hour on this topic. we should talk next steps and touch quickly on a few other topics | |
| 22:02 | cjl | yes |
| 22:03 | walterbender | can we divide and conquer the action items I outlined earlier and plan to reconvene again in a week? |
| 22:03 | I will take on looking into some other org structures | |
| 22:03 | someone wanna solicit a wish list? Adam? from the ALEARN network? | |
| 22:04 | cjl: wanna look into various funding models as per how they might impact our org. structure? | |
| 22:04 | alsroot | walterbender: it might be not so dramatic, ie, if that not-so-reliable micro deployement followed all set up procedures, the didn't create unique deployment, it is the same deployemnt closed from the templated (developed and well designed in mothership org). new responsobility can be taken w/o huge risks |
| 22:04 | s/closed/cloned/ | |
| 22:05 | walterbender | alsroot: I agree, if it is a reasonable self-contained effort... |
| 22:05 | cjl | walterbender: I can do some research |
| 22:05 | CanoeBerry | cjl: together? |
| 22:06 | walterbender | alsroot: one corollary would be to ensure that a micro deployment not prevent other groups from working in a region, or we won't have an ecosystem that can jump in to help |
| 22:06 | cjl | CanoeBerry: That would be a pleasure, it's been to long since we worked togeher |
| 22:06 | CanoeBerry | if only i could visit DC! |
| 22:06 | am in Jamaica for most of the coming month :) | |
| 22:06 | cjl | :-) quidam was here for the Cherry Blossoms |
| 22:06 | walterbender | cjl: speaking of DC, I am there for the day on Monday |
| 22:07 | cjl | busy all day? |
| 22:07 | icarito | we've tried in the past to solicit some open-ended feedback from the latam community without much success - maybe a more structured survey could help? |
| 22:07 | CanoeBerry | walterbender: ack, on Sugar/OLPC deployments sometimes being different, in a list of deployment consultancies or wherever! |
| 22:07 | cjl | walterbender: we can chat later |
| 22:07 | alsroot | walterbender: Re: one corollary would be to ensure that a micro deployment not prevent other groups -- for sure, since these are micro deployemnt (a couple of people) such groups might work even in the same district |
| 22:08 | walterbender | OK... I think we have our work to do. |
| 22:08 | cjl | alsroot I think we need to take discussion to he mailing lists, walterbender will you kick that off? |
| 22:09 | walterbender | just a heads up.. bernie is almost ready to order servers... news on that front soon. |
| 22:09 | cjl | CanoeBerry: I wish I could join you in Jamaica :-) |
| 22:09 | walterbender | anything else pressing? |
| 22:09 | CanoeBerry | cjl: do join..roundtrip flights are $300 non-stop |
| 22:09 | walterbender | CanoeBerry: Claudia and I may be joining you at some point... |
| 22:09 | cjl | alsroot did you mail FSA to SFC? |
| 22:09 | CanoeBerry | great |
| 22:09 | alsroot | cjl: yup |
| 22:09 | cjl | cool |
| 22:10 | walterbender | same time next week? |
| 22:10 | cjl | Told bkuhn I would follow up with you |
| 22:10 | CanoeBerry | k |
| 22:10 | walterbender | 5 |
| 22:10 | cjl | sure |
| 22:10 | walterbender | 4 |
| 22:10 | 3 | |
| 22:10 | 2 | |
| 22:10 | icarito | thanks all |
| 22:10 | walterbender | 1 |
| 22:10 | thanks... | |
| 22:10 | see you all next week. | |
| 22:10 | #end-meeting | |
| 22:10 | meeting | Meeting ended Thu May 10 22:10:56 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
| 22:10 | Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-10T21:10:33.html | |
| 22:10 | Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]12-05-10T21:10:33 | |
| 22:11 | GeraldA has quit IRC | |
| 22:12 | bernie | CanoeBerry: jamaica? |
| 22:12 | cjl | icarito: Weshould try t olearn what we can from Ceibal about what they do that works. |
| 22:12 | And we should bug the folks now in UY to kick some ideas around | |
| 22:13 | bernie | CanoeBerry: hey, do you take voluntourists? |
| 22:13 | icarito | cjl, ceibal the centralized government org that runs the laptop deployment in UY or you mean CeibalJam the grassroots software org? |
| 22:13 | bernie | i might come over for a few days by attaching some vacation to a week-end |
| 22:13 | cjl | icarito: CeibalJam |
| 22:13 | icarito | cjl, we should inquire why they never decided to become a local lab |
| 22:14 | cjl | icarito, but understanding what Ceibal does might be a good indication of what may be needed elsewhere, jsut from a different source. |
| 22:14 | icarito | cjl, I think there would be some interesting feedback regarding our organizational structure |
| 22:14 | cjl, CanoeBerry, please call it CeibalJam | |
| 22:14 | otherwise it's confusing | |
| 22:14 | cjl | icarito: As we are considering a new organization and a new organizational structure, such feedback would be useful. |
| 22:15 | icarito | cjl, they have minutes from their board meetings and assemblys |
| 22:15 | cjl | In lang-es? |
| 22:15 | icarito | yes |
| 22:16 | cjl | Well, I can always do my usual semi-Google readng |
| 22:16 | icarito | for one they have a membership fee |
| 22:16 | they do distinguish between an active member and an inactive one | |
| 22:16 | cjl | That is one fundraising approach |
| 22:16 | More succesful in a developed country than an uder-developed one though. | |
| 22:18 | icarito | cjl, rather than just fundraising, a sustainable is model would be desired |
| 22:19 | cjl | icarito, yes, I am not declaring funding the be-all-and-end-all, just an example fo something a central org can provide infrastructure for efficiently and reproducibly. |
| 22:20 | Collected teacher training materials might be another example | |
| 22:21 | walterbender | bernie: if I go, come with!! |
| 22:22 | cjl | walterbender: Will you be busy all day in DC on Monday? |
| 22:22 | walterbender | cjl: probably have a few hours free... |
| 22:22 | cjl | I could meet you for coffee or something |
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| 22:23 | walterbender | cjl: I'll let you know the schedule asap |
| 22:23 | cjl | Cool, look forward to arranging a meet by e-mail. (convenient to your lcoation and schedule). |
| 22:24 | walterbender | icarito: AFAIK, Ceibal Jam did become a local lab, at least nominally, within the constraints of all the other local labs, but they kept the brand idenitfy because Ceibal is so strong in .UY |
| 22:25 | cjl: is downtown convenient? I'll be at IADB and USAID, among others | |
| 22:26 | cjl | walterbender: sure |
| 22:27 | BTW from the 0.96 release notes | |
| 22:27 | For the Sucrose 0.96 release, 16 languages are 100% complete (with respect to the core Glucose module). | |
| 22:27 | Armenian, Chinese (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Danish, Dutch, English (United Kingdom), English (US), French, German, Huastec (Tének), Nepali, Polish, Portuguese, Sinhala, Spanish, Thai. | |
| 22:27 | An additional 8 languages are greater than 80% complete. | |
| 22:27 | Arabic, Bengali, Greek, Hindi, Japanese, Kinyarwanda, Tamil, Vietnamese. | |
| 22:27 | With some localization done on a total of 86 languages. | |
| 22:29 | I count en_GB because I think the Aussies are using it :-) | |
| 22:30 | If only I knew some Italian that could help move lang-it over the line. . . | |
| 22:31 | couhs and mutters bernie | |
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| 23:12 | CanoeBerry | bernie: yes we in Jamaica welcome TALENTED voluntourists..you'd certainly be most welcome. |
| 23:13 | bernie: roundtrips from NYC are absolutely dirt cheap, and non-stop ($300 on jetblue) | |
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