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#sugar-meeting, 2012-05-10

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21:08 walterbender hello all
21:08 can we have a quick SLOB show of hands
21:09 apologies for being late... head in an emacs window :P
21:09 icarito waves
21:09 CanoeBerry hi
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21:09 alsroot hi all
21:10 walterbender hey adam... where are you?
21:10 CanoeBerry cambridge / olpcf
21:10 GeraldA hello all
21:10 walterbender we have a quorum :)
21:10 #start-meeting
21:10 meeting Meeting started Thu May 10 21:10:33 2012 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:10 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
21:10 walterbender is everyone up to speed re what was discussed last week?
21:10 CanoeBerry cjb here too..
21:11 kaametza_ <kaametza_!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
21:11 CanoeBerry am not up to full-speed yet, but read the transcripts
21:12 walterbender icarito, keynote2k, kaametza, and I spent some time yesterday discussing the local lab issue in more detail
21:12 cjl waves
21:12 kaametza_ hello all
21:13 GeraldA I am up to speed
21:13 walterbender It seems we are headed down a path whereby we don't try to force a square peg into a round hole.
21:13 cjl +3.141526
21:13 walterbender the Local Lab concept is too difficult to administer in the context of the SFC
21:13 cjl missed a digit there
21:14 walterbender so we began looking at other options
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21:14 walterbender SFC is a great vehicle for managing a project and acking a developer user community, but not managing and overseeing deployment
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21:15 walterbender we are not the only project to come to this conclusion... Tony mentioned that mifos is also looking at alternative structures
21:16 http://www.mifos.org/
21:17 I am of the opinion that we need to set up a "New Co" or "New Org" to handle relationships with deployments.
21:17 cjl SFC is very software development oriented, It is after all their focus.
21:17 walterbender But first we need to make sure we get a sense of what is desired and what is possible.
21:18 cjl: I think the s'ware development works fine within the SFC structure... it is everything that is difficult
21:18 cjl yes
21:18 walterbender the SFC cannot take on a support contract, for example, as they have no way to provide oversight.
21:19 of course, New Org may find that difficult as well... we need to be realistic
21:19 but the risk structure is better contained... it doesn't spill over to other projects
21:20 cjl This sounds a little bit like why there is an OLPCF and an OLPCA
21:20 walterbender so my proposal is to move as quickly as possible to solicit from the community what they would want from a New Org and then...
21:20 cjl:  exactly
21:20 in fact OLPCA is not a 501C3
21:21 I am prepared (and Robert Fadel agreed to help) to do the heavy lifting to get something off the ground, but we need to be clear about what we want and what is possible.
21:21 CanoeBerry aside, i am part of an informal org that supports 6-7 microdeployments, and may seek to expand: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/ALEARN_Network
21:22 walterbender I don't want to set expectations we cannot realize, but I am sure we can get closer to deployments than our current structure allows.
21:22 looks at Adam's link
21:22 cjl I wonder if we could learn some lessons from OLE
21:23 walterbender ALEARN is the acronym from hell :)
21:23 CanoeBerry yes, the name may have to go
21:24 walterbender cjl: I'll speak to Dick Rowe ASAP to see how his org is structured.
21:24 CanoeBerry i agree OLE is a model we need to emulate and/or work with
21:24 walterbender CanoeBerry: is this more than a wiki page and people? Is there a formal org behind it? or is it a collection of orgs?
21:25 CanoeBerry it's a strong network that meets every week, but it's not a 501(c)(3) or anything like that yet
21:25 walterbender CanoeBerry: so it is not an organization that engages in contracts, etc.
21:26 CanoeBerry not yet, tho there are discussion of (possibly) moving in this direction
21:26 cjl OLE branches seem very deployment-logistics focused and I believe that is an element of what is needed.
21:26 Understandign their umbrella org and structure could be very helpful.
21:26 walterbender cjl: +1
21:27 In any case, I would like to propose a series of actions:
21:27 cjl Related to deployment logistics, it would be unlike me not to mention L10n as an area where human capital is important
21:28 walterbender #action: we solicit from the community things that would like from a New Org that have been difficult to achieve within the SFC framework
21:28 cjl +1
21:28 walterbender #action: we look into existing orgs, e.g., OLE, from which we may model a New Org
21:29 cjl +1
21:29 walterbender #action: we reconvene and pool our research results
21:29 cjl +1, but we should put a schedule on that
21:29 walterbender #action: if it seems rational and reasonable, we create New Org
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21:30 walterbender cjl: Yes. We need to get moving in this...
21:30 icarito I think it is a good idea to look over http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]r_Labs#Principles and see if we have been able to live up to these ideals - maybe as orientation for the path forward
21:30 alsroot can we summarize (how it is understandable right now) the purpose for new org/com in a couple of sentences
21:31 cjl alsroot, that depends somewhat on what people see as the needs, but Peru is an obvious example of where the SFC model has presented challenges.
21:32 walterbender alsroot: It seems we have a problem as an organization in engaging in deployment.
21:32 alsroot: this is a structural issue
21:32 alsroot: and it is not clear we can resolve it within the SFC framework
21:33 alsroot: hence the desire to look at alternatives
21:33 alsroot: I don't know if we can pull it off, but we should investigate
21:34 icarito: re your question, I think the place we have fallen short is the "goods"
21:34 icarito walterbender, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]r_Labs#Principles came from a cooperative model, right?
21:34 walterbender icarito: I don't know what you mean
21:35 cjl Peru is not the only example, I think that there may be other places where local groups fall under the radar of OLPCA support, or may want to do something unique.
21:35 walterbender cjl: Adam's list encompasses some...
21:36 alsroot more or less understand the issues that SL Peru faces. my concern is that the call to community needs to be more formalized, eg, one of points is a possibility to provide some support/services to deploymets or so
21:36 icarito walterbender, just asking about the origin of this particular set of principles
21:36 walterbender icarito: when we started Sugar Labs, we had two goals: find a home for the software project and try to build a mechanism for growing local efforts
21:37 icarito: we have a nice home for the software in the SFC, but have run into a variety of issues re growing local initiatives
21:37 icarito: it may be unrealistic to do the latter from within such an org...
21:38 icarito: but I think it is worh looking again at alternatives
21:39 alsroot: I agree that we need clarity... but I also am not 100% aware of the roadblocks people face. icarito has been quite outspoken, but few others have every expressed their concerns.
21:39 so I'd like to solicit more input
21:40 CanoeBerry My own vision: existing groups already doing this hard work {OLE/ALEARN/SL/AC/Support Gang/OLPC SF/OLPC Australia/Waveplace/various Ceibals/ETC} do a far better job uniting around the exhausting/expensive/personal work supporting small-to-medium-sized deployments.  Such collab won't be easy!  But it's my personal dream, and that of many, as we know :)
21:40 cjb is comfortable with an external org given that even the SFC thinks it's a good idea
21:40 icarito yes it has been difficult to get local communities to express their needs
21:41 walterbender icarito: and it is clear that there is not unanimity in those needs, even within one region
21:41 cjl alsroot, yes, I think that we might need something that could (for example) quickly provide a customized PayPal link that goes to an "intended to support initiative X" account,  For technica reasons, it may not be legally segregated, but donor inten tis registered an acted upon.
21:42 walterbender CanoeBerry: and maybe those groups are enough and we need not establish New Org... but we keep hearing there there is a need for SL to play a more direct role.
21:42 cjl Just as an example of the services tha might be needed.
21:42 walterbender CanoeBerry: I need to understand what that role should be
21:43 CanoeBerry yes
21:43 these groups are too scattered, and for a reason.  uniting them won't be easy.  but i hope others are willing to work with me to try ;)
21:44 kaametza_ shouldn't mentioned groups should find in SL a collaboration facilitator?
21:44 icarito CanoeBerry, we've always been ready to collaborate and have looked at Sugar Labs as a decentralized framework to do so
21:44 walterbender kaametza_: maybe... I would think so, but on occasion, I have been told to butt out as well.
21:45 alsroot one thing for sure, such new org should not try to repeat/replace orgs like (I know about) AC/Ceibals/pyeduca. in mymind is should a center to coordinate things like crowdfunding; provide some experts' help to setup local micro/small (maybe medium) deployements. but do it in more reliable way than just an .org
21:45 cjl kaametza We do that with mailing lists and wikis already
21:45 alsroot ..one thing for sure for me
21:46 walterbender alsroot: I don't think reliable deployments can happen from afar...
21:46 alsroot: but resources for reliable deployments might be augemented from afar
21:47 alsroot: so I agree that we need to work with those existing orgs on the ground
21:47 CanoeBerry olpcMAP.net is one such decentralized framework, and an amazing one, but i believe we can do better
21:47 icarito there is a need to share best practices and methodologies for deployment and articulating directed resources would help achieve this
21:48 alsroot walterbender: yup, I meant that such new org needs to provide some reliable help for [maybe not reliable] deploemnts (in my mind, it should a bunch of micro/small deployemnts that can't be relibale because totally community based)
21:49 walterbender icarito: we can share best practices without setting up a New Org
21:49 kaametza_ what deployments (in general) are lacking today is to be able to get formal support from the community
21:49 walterbender kaametza_: that is at least the case in your corner
21:49 cjl kaametza_ local community or global community?
21:50 walterbender kaametza_: I haven't heard the same issue raised elsewhere, but that is not to say it is not an issue
21:50 icarito walterbender, if it will be possible to direct resources to deployment projects, it will also be possible to set some standards for this
21:51 kaametza_ cjl: a bit of both i guess
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21:52 kaametza_ walterbender: +1 software support may only be a part of what deployments need
21:52 cjl One element of this is possibly be a Sugar-based kickstarter, we should look int ocrowdfunding models as well.
21:52 kaametza_ just talking out of Peru's experience
21:53 walterbender cjl: would be nice to crowdfund translation into Igbo
21:53 cjl yes
21:53 CanoeBerry Related: an "honest" listing of sugar/olpc Deployment Services Consultancies is needed, at the bare minimum.  If others would like to work with me to develop such a "live table" on wiki.sugarlabs.org or wherever please let me know.  Even if it isn't full blown "Consumer Reports", it can accompany http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Deployment_Guide etc to make the impossible choices around deployment
21:53 a bit more sane.
21:54 cjl Haitian Kreyol is an example where the volunteer localization effort has not coalesced, that could be sweetened with some (minimal) funding.
21:55 alsroot cjl: to rephrase my idea, I'm thinking about the following usecase: a couple of guys decided to do some work (like setting up sugar in a couple of school in their town) during one month. they need some funding, some help w/ procedures and expertise. all these reqs should be already setup andworking within the new org, ie, those guys just need to follow procedures and will get get to make this
21:55 micro deployemnt happened
21:55 walterbender alsroot: nice... and what I like is the scale...
21:56 alsroot: not overambitious... doable
21:56 cjl Deployment assistance in a box, (customize as needed)?
21:57 walterbender CanoeBerry: we need to (perhaps) make a distinction between an OLPC deployment and a Sugar deployment.
21:58 kaametza_ CanoeBerry: some time ago we (colombia + peru labs) worked on an initial draft of something like a sugar portfolio of services for deployments, just for refernce http://openetherpad.org/portafolio-azucar
21:58 cjl I think a key element is stuff like a fundraising infrastructure, because i nthe end, something is going to cost money (hotspots, solar panels, teacher training, etc.)
21:58 icarito The head of DIGETE (the central MoE entity that administers the laptop deployment) thought OLPC and Sugar Labs was the same organization
21:58 (in peru)
21:58 walterbender icarito: you mean Sandro?
21:59 icarito walterbender, yes, he asked
21:59 walterbender icarito: he didn't think that when I spoke with hi a few months ago. Wonder what has changed
21:59 cjl: money in and out and oversight
22:00 icarito yes Sandro some months ago, maybe before he talked with you
22:00 alsroot cjl: fundsrising is important, but there is another point. such new org should be ready to take responsobility from not-so-reliable local micro/small deployemnt. take on its own, or pass it to another micro/small deployment from the same region
22:01 cjl Another model to look at  http://www.donorschoose.org/
22:01 walterbender alsroot: this is why I like the idea of small... then there is a chance to jump in when necessary
22:01 cjl alsroot +1
22:01 walterbender alsroot: we cannot be responsible for others biting off more than we can chew
22:01 apologies for the metaphor
22:02 we've consumed our hour on this topic. we should talk next steps and touch quickly on a few other topics
22:02 cjl yes
22:03 walterbender can we divide and conquer the action items I outlined earlier and plan to reconvene again in a week?
22:03 I will take on looking into some other org structures
22:03 someone wanna solicit a wish list? Adam? from the ALEARN network?
22:04 cjl: wanna look into various funding models as per how they might impact our org. structure?
22:04 alsroot walterbender: it might be not so dramatic, ie, if that not-so-reliable micro deployement followed all set up procedures, the didn't create unique deployment, it is the same deployemnt closed from the templated (developed and well designed in mothership org). new responsobility can be taken w/o huge risks
22:04 s/closed/cloned/
22:05 walterbender alsroot: I agree, if it is a reasonable self-contained effort...
22:05 cjl walterbender: I can do some research
22:05 CanoeBerry cjl: together?
22:06 walterbender alsroot: one corollary would be to ensure that a micro deployment not prevent other groups from working in a region, or we won't have an ecosystem that can jump in to help
22:06 cjl CanoeBerry: That would be a pleasure, it's been to long since we worked togeher
22:06 CanoeBerry if only i could visit DC!
22:06 am in Jamaica for most of the coming month :)
22:06 cjl :-)  quidam was here for the Cherry Blossoms
22:06 walterbender cjl: speaking of DC, I am there for the day on Monday
22:07 cjl busy all day?
22:07 icarito we've tried in the past to solicit some open-ended feedback from the latam community without much success - maybe a more structured survey could help?
22:07 CanoeBerry walterbender: ack, on Sugar/OLPC deployments sometimes being different, in a list of deployment consultancies or wherever!
22:07 cjl walterbender: we can chat later
22:07 alsroot walterbender: Re: one corollary would be to ensure that a micro deployment not prevent other groups -- for sure, since these are micro deployemnt (a couple of people) such groups might work even in the same district
22:08 walterbender OK... I think we have our work to do.
22:08 cjl alsroot I think we need to take discussion to he mailing lists, walterbender will you kick that off?
22:09 walterbender just a heads up.. bernie is almost ready to order servers... news on that front soon.
22:09 cjl CanoeBerry: I wish I could join you in Jamaica :-)
22:09 walterbender anything else pressing?
22:09 CanoeBerry cjl: do join..roundtrip flights are $300 non-stop
22:09 walterbender CanoeBerry: Claudia and I may be joining you at some point...
22:09 cjl alsroot did you mail FSA to SFC?
22:09 CanoeBerry great
22:09 alsroot cjl: yup
22:09 cjl cool
22:10 walterbender same time next week?
22:10 cjl Told bkuhn I would follow up with you
22:10 CanoeBerry k
22:10 walterbender 5
22:10 cjl sure
22:10 walterbender 4
22:10 3
22:10 2
22:10 icarito thanks all
22:10 walterbender 1
22:10 thanks...
22:10 see you all next week.
22:10 #end-meeting
22:10 meeting Meeting ended Thu May 10 22:10:56 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
22:10 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-10T21:10:33.html
22:10 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]12-05-10T21:10:33
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22:12 bernie CanoeBerry: jamaica?
22:12 cjl icarito: Weshould try t olearn what we can from Ceibal about what they do that works.
22:12 And we should bug the folks now in UY to kick some ideas around
22:13 bernie CanoeBerry: hey, do you take voluntourists?
22:13 icarito cjl, ceibal the centralized government org that runs the laptop deployment in UY or you mean CeibalJam the grassroots software org?
22:13 bernie i might come over for a few days by attaching some vacation to a week-end
22:13 cjl icarito: CeibalJam
22:13 icarito cjl, we should inquire why they never decided to become a local lab
22:14 cjl icarito, but understanding what Ceibal does might be a good indication of what may be needed elsewhere, jsut from a different source.
22:14 icarito cjl, I think there would be some interesting feedback regarding our organizational structure
22:14 cjl, CanoeBerry, please call it CeibalJam
22:14 otherwise it's confusing
22:14 cjl icarito: As we are considering a new organization and a new organizational structure, such feedback would be useful.
22:15 icarito cjl, they have minutes from their board meetings and assemblys
22:15 cjl In lang-es?
22:15 icarito yes
22:16 cjl Well, I can always do my usual semi-Google readng
22:16 icarito for one they have a membership fee
22:16 they do distinguish between an active member and an inactive one
22:16 cjl That is one fundraising approach
22:16 More succesful in a developed country than an uder-developed one though.
22:18 icarito cjl, rather than just fundraising, a sustainable is model would be desired
22:19 cjl icarito, yes, I am not declaring funding the be-all-and-end-all, just an example fo something a central org can provide infrastructure for efficiently and reproducibly.
22:20 Collected teacher training materials might be another example
22:21 walterbender bernie: if I go, come with!!
22:22 cjl walterbender: Will you be busy all day in DC on Monday?
22:22 walterbender cjl: probably have a few hours free...
22:22 cjl I could meet you for coffee or something
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22:23 walterbender cjl: I'll let you know the schedule asap
22:23 cjl Cool, look forward to arranging a meet by e-mail. (convenient to your lcoation and schedule).
22:24 walterbender icarito:  AFAIK, Ceibal Jam did become a local lab, at least nominally, within the constraints of all the other local labs, but they kept the brand idenitfy because Ceibal is so strong in .UY
22:25 cjl:  is downtown convenient? I'll be at IADB and USAID, among others
22:26 cjl walterbender: sure
22:27 BTW  from the 0.96 release notes
22:27 For the Sucrose 0.96 release, 16 languages are 100% complete (with respect to the core Glucose module).
22:27 Armenian, Chinese (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Danish, Dutch, English (United Kingdom), English (US), French, German, Huastec (Tének), Nepali, Polish, Portuguese, Sinhala, Spanish, Thai.
22:27 An additional 8 languages are greater than 80% complete.
22:27 Arabic, Bengali, Greek, Hindi, Japanese, Kinyarwanda, Tamil, Vietnamese.
22:27 With some localization done on a total of 86 languages.
22:29 I count en_GB because I think the Aussies are using it :-)
22:30 If only I knew some Italian that could help move lang-it over the line. . .
22:31 couhs and mutters bernie
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23:12 CanoeBerry bernie: yes we in Jamaica welcome TALENTED voluntourists..you'd certainly be most welcome.
23:13 bernie: roundtrips from NYC are absolutely dirt cheap, and non-stop ($300 on jetblue)
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