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#sugar-meeting, 2012-03-20

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14:45 humitos hi
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15:00 gonzalo_ hello all
15:00 walterbender hola
15:00 garycmartin waves to gonzalo_
15:00 gonzalo_ garycmartin, Ariel_Calzada humitos icarito walterbender silbe
15:00 garycmartin Hi folks!
15:00 gonzalo_ anybody else here?
15:00 Ariel_Calzada hi
15:01 dirakx: ping
15:01 m_anish hola a todos!
15:02 gonzalo_ hola!, in a few years more, we will do the meetings in spanish :)
15:03 silbe waves
15:03 gonzalo_ hi silbe
15:03 hi garycmartin
15:03 ready to start?
15:03 garycmartin yep :)
15:03 gonzalo_ #startmeeting
15:03 meeting Meeting started Tue Mar 20 15:03:51 2012 UTC. The chair is gonzalo_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:03 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
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15:04 gonzalo_ maybe you know, today is erikos out, and i stolen the chair :)
15:04 manuq waves
15:04 gonzalo_ hi manuq :)
15:05 then the idea is talk a little more about activities state
15:05 garycmartin gonzalo_: welcome to the hot seat :)
15:05 silbe gonzalo_: this is open source, no need to steal. Just fork! ;)
15:05 gonzalo_ :)
15:05 the last we we was working in our os4 image
15:06 the bugs we found are http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User[…]ng/os4#activities
15:06 and we updated a few activities,
15:07 i have a list here, and would be good if you can confirm if the maintainers are ok
15:07 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User[…]ate_of_Activities
15:07 m_anish, silbe, dirakx, garycmartin, walterbender, manuq, please check ^
15:07 garycmartin looks
15:07 walterbender gonzalo_: peter confirmed that Abacus v32 is all set
15:08 gonzalo_ walterbender, great
15:08 walterbender gonzalo_: so it is time to jump in and start packaging for Sugar3???
15:09 garycmartin is about to release a Calculate-39 (with the great fixes from Miguel)
15:09 gonzalo_ walterbender, i think we are in a better shape now
15:09 garycmartin, great, is very good for new volunteers see that, thanks!
15:10 manuq gonzalo_: I released Implode 11 and Labyrinth 12, time to update the list
15:10 I'll do it
15:10 gonzalo_ manuq, wait
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15:11 gonzalo_ manuq, these are the versions in os4, i put a note with the updates to help peter to see all he need update
15:11 walterbender gonzalo_: oops. I just updated the table
15:11 gonzalo_ manuq, there are a note aboutr your activities already
15:11 walterbender, :)
15:12 hi callkalpa, welcome!
15:12 callkalpa hi all
15:12 manuq gonzalo_: ok!
15:13 gonzalo_ ok, no comments about the maintainer list? is ok?
15:13 walterbender gonzalo_: I guess the one thing I am still up in the air about before launching into updating all of my activities to Sugar3 is the issue of backward compatibility. Did we ultimately reject cscott's approach?
15:14 garycmartin gonzalo_: what type of errors on the maintainer list were you looking for?
15:14 just checked the activities he maintains
15:14 gonzalo_ garycmartin, check if the maintainers are right
15:15 walterbender, we didn't rejected or approved it
15:16 right now, porting to gtk3 means maintain two versions or stop working in gtk2
15:16 like you know
15:17 walterbender gonzalo_: seems like now is the time to decide on our recommended approach
15:17 manuq walterbender: can you point us to cscott's approach?
15:17 gonzalo_ walterbender, did you tried use cscott's idea?
15:18 walterbender will look for the example in git...
15:18 manuq walterbender: does it requiere extra effort?
15:18 garycmartin gonzalo_: FWIW my plan was to stop adding features to gtk2 versions, critical bug fix only, and focus new feature work on gtk3 versions.
15:18 gonzalo_ garycmartin, yes, have sense
15:19 manuq maybe we can leave a compatible approach to the maintainer
15:19 gonzalo_ another interesting news is this http://www.piware.de/2012/03/p[…]-3-1-92-released/
15:19 manuq so is up to the maintainer to decide
15:19 re Browse, for example, will be too much for keeping compat
15:19 walterbender manuq: http://git.sugarlabs.org/~csco[…]util/gtkcompat.py
15:19 manuq checks
15:20 gonzalo_ manuq, yes, there are activities where should be very difficult
15:21 walterbender, did you read  http://www.piware.de/2012/03/p[…]-3-1-92-released/ ?
15:22 walterbender interesting that maintainer of pygtkcompat module talks about it as a temporary transition...
15:22 gonzalo_ walterbender, well, we need a temporary solution too :)
15:22 walterbender suggests we may as well move whole-hog into Sugar3 as per Plan A
15:23 gonzalo_: I think the idea of maintenance patches is enough of a temporary solution
15:23 gonzalo_ ok
15:23 manuq +1
15:23 garycmartin +1
15:24 walterbender I can see dealing with i18n update for a quite a while, however :P
15:24 gonzalo_ then we can do like we are doing in browse / read, release point gtk2 versions
15:24 only with fixes
15:25 probably we should suggest a branch /numbering standard, right?
15:25 manuq yes, bug fixes, string translations included, get a new dotted version
15:26 gonzalo_ i have another comment about porting to gtk3
15:27 garycmartin gonzalo_: Are activity releases with decimal points OK (bug fix releases 25.1 25.2 25.3 etc). I just don't see many folks using this yet. Wanted to make sure it's working well before we _really_ need decimal point versions.
15:27 gonzalo_ garycmartin, is working ok
15:27 we are using it
15:27 garycmartin My worry is older Sugar distros not updating to the latest version correctly.
15:28 gonzalo_ garycmartin, older than 10.1.3 will not work
15:28 walterbender gonzalo_: point of information: how soon would you like the Sugar3 activities?
15:28 gonzalo_: alas, that is most of Peru and .UY?
15:29 gonzalo_ walterbender, sadly, i don't know what versions are running in most deployments
15:30 m_anish, do you know what is the suppport of dotted versions in dextrose releases?
15:30 silbe, ? ^
15:31 m_anish gonzalo_, where? updater? IIRC they're supported
15:31 garycmartin Hmmmm, well I might use the old/nasty trick of bumping up my activity versions by +10 and hope that's enough space for bug fix releases.
15:31 gonzalo_ walterbender, in the next 17 image (os5) i hope we will have a almost finished sugar-toolkit-gtk3
15:32 garycmartin, i think will be better if all do the same, people will be confused about what version is for gtk3/2
15:32 (people will be confused anyway, the situation is confussing :/)
15:33 m_anish gonzalo_, we're not doing anything special in sugar-core (in dx) specifically related to dotted versions. our code is based on top of 0.94.1
15:33 garycmartin gonzalo_: but there's no point releasing bug fixes for old Sugar users if almost none of them can get them :(
15:33 gonzalo_ m_anish, dextrose 1 was ased in 10.1.3, right?
15:33 m_anish gonzalo_, yep dx1 and 2
15:33 walterbender bernie: ^^ ?
15:34 gonzalo_ m_anish, ok
15:34 walterbender if that is accurate, we should be OK in .UY
15:34 m_anish gonzalo_, uhm wait! sorry for the dumb ques 10,.1.3 is 0.88?
15:34 gonzalo_, dx1 and 2 were f11+0.88
15:34 garycmartin thought some testing went on with dotted version numbers to make sure things didn't break old Sugar builds.
15:35 walterbender and since .PE never uses ASLO, it is seemingly moot.
15:35 gonzalo_ walterbender, then you think is ok use dotted versions?
15:35 reubencaron, ping
15:36 reubencaron gonzalo_: pong
15:36 icarito m_anish, 10.1.3 is sugar 0.84
15:36 walterbender gonzalo_: I think so. but it would be good to double check with the various deployments if we can.
15:36 m_anish icarito, yah i thought so right after i pressed enter ;)
15:36 gonzalo_ reubencaron, do you know what images are used in the deployments?
15:36 reubencaron gonzalo_: for the most part
15:37 icarito gonzalo_, peru basically uses 10.1.2 or something
15:37 gonzalo_ icarito, m_anish then we need check if you ported dotted versions to 0.88
15:37 icarito "Sugar 8 Peru" is based on 10.1.? releases
15:37 m_anish gonzalo_, fwiw, in au they use  a custom version of 10.1.3 (but they'll be moving to something based on 11.x pretty soon)
15:37 reubencaron icarito: but i'm not sure how much of peru was updated
15:37 m_anish gonzalo_, okay, details pls? :) any bud-id?
15:37 *bug
15:37 reubencaron there was a push about a year ago to get that update pushed out
15:37 icarito gonzalo_,  dotted versions don't work with 0.84 ?
15:37 reubencaron if machines in PE were not updated they would still be on 703
15:38 walterbender according to the data I got from dogi, there is essentially zero activity on ASLO from Peru
15:38 icarito walterbender, that is explained by essentially zero conectivity in peru
15:38 like we've been saying for long time
15:38 gonzalo_ reubencaron, we are trying to define if is safe use dotted versions to do versions for sugar gtk2
15:38 icarito but we are addressing this with Sugar Network
15:38 walterbender icarito: you are preaching to the choir...
15:39 gonzalo_ reubencaron, and dotted versions are supported from 10.1.3
15:39 walterbender icarito: but the point here is that we should not hold up development for a deployment that is not using the resources...
15:39 icarito gonzalo_, if you point me to a dotted bundle maybe I can try in a "Sugar 8" image
15:39 garycmartin gonzalo_: I can flash an XO here with an original Sugar build and test what it does with a dotted version - if I remember it ignores the dotted part but does not crash/die, and back then .xo bundles would just install over whatever was there withe their contents.
15:39 gonzalo_ reubencaron, then we need what deployments have older versions
15:40 icarito, ok
15:40 reubencaron walterbender: i agree
15:40 m_anish gonzalo_, would this be a problem for existing deployments that use ASLO (and dotted version support isnt thr!?)
15:40 silbe icarito: dotted version support was introduced in 0.92.0 and backported to 0.84, first shipped in 0.84.14.
15:41 m_anish gonzalo_, walterbender i'd imagine kids in both uy and py would use ASLO
15:41 reubencaron gonzalo_: I would say the majority have updated; however, I do not know to what extent PE was able to complete it's update
15:41 walterbender icarito: when you put resources on the local server, you can always repackage the activities to use a non-dotted scheme if necessary
15:41 icarito silbe, thanks for the info, will check exactly what sugar version is in "Sugar 8 Peru" then
15:41 m_anish silbe, when did this happen (approx date?)
15:42 icarito walterbender yes one more reason to provide our own custom updated image in schools we intervene
15:42 reubencaron I belive Sugar 8 Peru was 10.1.3
15:42 silbe m_anish: November 2010
15:42 icarito reubencaron, it was based on 10.1.2 cycle i think
15:42 gonzalo_ icarito, you have dotted versions to test here http://dev.laptop.org/~gonzalo/activities/
15:42 icarito it has some bugs 10.1.3 doesnt have
15:42 thanks gonzalo_
15:43 m_anish silbe, ok then it might be in dx2.. i'll have to check... bernie by any chance you know the status of dotted version support in dx1?
15:43 silbe icarito: the important thing to note is that Sugar 0.86.x and 0.88.x do _not_ support dotted versions, even though 0.84.14+ does.
15:43 walterbender icarito: also, there is Abacus-30.1 on ASLO
15:43 m_anish #action m_anish check dotted version support in dx1/2
15:43 reubencaron icarito: ah yes you're correct they had two different versions the Sugar 8 Peru for the primary kids was 10.1.2 and the Gnome only build was 10.1.3
15:43 gonzalo_ m_anish, thanks
15:44 m_anish gonzalo_, silbe however, doesnt this reflect poorly on the versioning system (not being backwards compatible) maybe something to consider going forward?
15:44 gonzalo_ m_anish, can you explain?
15:45 silbe m_anish: there are a few reflections on the dotted version support and how it was handled, but that's something for another day (with a nice cold beer). ;)
15:45 icarito reubencaron, thanks! good to know you have the info sometimes hard to find here
15:45 m_anish silbe, ok, i'll let pass ;)
15:45 gonzalo_ ok
15:46 then, there are agreement we can use the dotted versions for gtk2 activities with bug fixes?
15:46 can we agree on this?
15:46 m_anish gonzalo_, you mean in ASLO? I still have to check whether they're supported in dx1/2. otw i guess its going to be a problem for uy/py
15:47 gonzalo_ m_anish, yes, in aslo
15:47 m_anish, ok, we can wait for your test and decide in the next meeting
15:47 m_anish gonzalo_, +1!
15:47 walterbender gonzalo_: we can do to Sugar3 ports in parallel withreconfiming the numbering decision
15:47 m_anish gonzalo_, i'll have that info by next weeks' meeting
15:48 gonzalo_ garycmartin, is ok for you?
15:49 garycmartin thinking...
15:49 gonzalo_ i propose decide a coordinate scheme the next week
15:51 garycmartin +1 for following up on this for the next meeting. I'd certainly like to do a quick rough test here to see if dotted versions do something nasty to an old Sugar build.
15:51 gonzalo_ ok
15:52 anybody else? :)
15:52 m_anish garycmartin, not sure if its still there, but wasnt there an instance of ASLO just for testing... activities-testing.sugarlabs.org alsroot might know.
15:52 silbe garycmartin: thanks for volunteering to do the test!
15:52 gonzalo_ #agreed next meeting decide numbering scheme to gtk2/3 activities
15:53 garycmartin (ideally we use dotted versioning for the gtk2 bug releases, as long as dotted versions work on ASLO for new builds and old builds don't explode in a cloud of 0's and 1's)
15:53 gonzalo_ yes
15:53 ok
15:53 silbe m_anish: AIUI activities-testing.sl.o is for testing ASLO itself, not content. But if you don't "publish" the activity version, most users won't see it and they'll get a scary warning not to use it.
15:54 m_anish silbe, ah right
15:55 gonzalo_ about porting to gtk3, would be good if we start then we can found problems earlier
15:55 by example gstreamer is not ready
15:55 i don't know who else will have this problem
15:55 but ....
15:55 walterbender, measure use gstreamer?
15:57 hmm, we lost walterbender ?
15:57 garycmartin, did you tried os4?
15:57 manuq so gonzalo_, we should check the sucrose activities?
15:58 garycmartin gonzalo_: os4, no. I'm waiting for an XO image, I don't have a Fedora-17 VM setup here.
15:59 gonzalo_ manuq, why sucrose?
15:59 garycmartin, os4 is a xo-1.5 image
15:59 walterbender gonzalo_: sorry. got a phone call... yes measure (and turtle art and portfolio) use gstreamer
15:59 garycmartin gonzalo_: damn, only have XO-1 and XO-1.75 here.
15:59 manuq gonzalo_: I mean, main activities?
15:59 gonzalo_ garycmartin, :(
16:00 manuq, yeah main activities
16:00 all the activities we include need to be ported
16:01 walterbender, hmm, will be a problem , probably
16:01 walterbender, has you tried?
16:01 walterbender gonzalo_: haven't tried yet.
16:02 gonzalo_: I suppose I will try with measure first.
16:02 gonzalo_ walterbender, i have tried with Read activity, basic play works, but no the messages in the gstreamer bus
16:02 ok, can we change to the next topic?
16:03 i have a question for you walterbender
16:03 walterbender, remember the proposal of metada for activities?
16:03 walterbender yes
16:03 gonzalo_: I thought it was tabled for the time being
16:04 gonzalo_ walterbender, I thought you will propose a standard way to save the metadata
16:05 then if the activity maintainers could implement it , they can
16:05 walterbender, may be i was wrong
16:05 walterbender What I was proposing was a standard way to identify metadata you wanted to have appear in the Journal detail view beyond the description and tags
16:06 but I got push back on the idea
16:06 gonzalo_: the specific problem I am trying to solve is a way to give learners feedback
16:07 gonzalo_: most of the efforts to date (in Sugar and otherwise) are geared towards giving feedback to administrators, not learners.
16:07 gonzalo_: I though the journal was the correct place to do this
16:07 gonzalo_ walterbender, there was interest from the learning team on this too
16:07 walterbender gonzalo_: but I find the description and tags to be very limiiting
16:08 gonzalo_: yes... they very much endorsed the idea
16:08 gonzalo_: the approach I think we may want to take is a general extension to the detail view that allows for display of additional text and images
16:09 this would work for the "badge" program as well
16:10 gonzalo_ walterbender, and the data will be metadata generated by the activities, fight?
16:10 right?
16:10 walterbender gonzalo_: yes
16:10 gonzalo_: but that was the cause of the fight :)
16:10 gonzalo_ walterbender, how can move this forward?
16:11 walterbender I suppose I need to make a new Feature proposal
16:11 gonzalo_ walterbender, and/or start discussing in sugar-devel
16:11 walterbender yup
16:11 garycmartin walterbender: All I saw re Journal integration was a proposal  to add yet another text box into the details view to displayed misc metadata text output additionally saved by an Activity. What was the use case, how does this help the learner? Would it be misc hints "Why no try using the accelerometer block next time?" type thing.
16:12 gonzalo_ garycmartin, i think is more related to achievments?
16:13 walterbender I was not too much more sophisticated than that from the Sugar point of view.
16:13 but we developed with .PY a series of rubrics to use in a number of activities to trigger such hints and feedback
16:14 we are experimenting with a small subset in Miami at the Holmes school
16:14 but only capturing the metadata, not displaying it in the Journal :P
16:15 silbe walterbender: FWIW, I'm not opposed to showing additional metadata in the details view. The devil is just in the details (no pun intended) of what to show and how. Also, depending on the exact purpose, a special-purpose activity (like Portfolio is) may be a better fit than overloading the Journal.
16:15 gonzalo_ silbe, yes, this was proposed too
16:15 walterbender silbe: I don't disagree. and my original proposal was not very fully developed
16:16 silbe: but I do think the Journal is the right place to display these data (as well as Portfolio). Really for two different purposes
16:16 gonzalo_ walterbender, my point, is if we agree in the format and the information we need save, the activities can be modified
16:17 silbe walterbender: as I said, it depends on the exact purpose. And that's where I'm still lacking information. Happily waiting for results from your little pilot program.
16:17 garycmartin silbe: +1, would love to see an Awards/Achievement activity that mined the Journal for default metadata and some agreed on metadata. Activity can then present the data in a friendly/fun manner.
16:18 walterbender garycmartin: if we can agree on a design for how these extra images and text are displayed, we can also agree on a mechanism for triggering them in s'ware
16:19 silbe: I am not sure that we will know in advance all the uses, but we already have described two use cases just in the past 5 minutes
16:19 garycmartin silbe: if successful it could then perhaps land in the Sugar UI/Journal as a core, exposed, feature for all.
16:19 manuq has to run now :/
16:19 gonzalo_ is happy to do noise about this :)
16:19 walterbender, ok, we can wait for your pilot
16:20 and your new proposal
16:20 i have a last topic
16:20 garycmartin walterbender: a full canvas scrolling trophy room of cups, certificates, and badges. Colourful, animated, with a section for greyed out cups, certificates, and badges about to be unlocked (hints as to what to try next).
16:21 walterbender garycmartin: OK... the key here is "a full canvas scrolling..."
16:21 gonzalo_ garycmartin, yes, but is no so easy from the education point of view...
16:21 walterbender garycmartin: I wasn't being so ambitious... I just wanted a scrolling window
16:21 garycmartin walterbender: and an option to share the activity so friends, teachers could see as well.
16:22 walterbender garycmartin: cannot we already share Journal entries?
16:22 gonzalo_ walterbender, but this is not just a journal entry
16:22 walterbender one of the reasons I want this to be journal based is to leverage the existing features and use cases
16:23 gonzalo_: I don't see why it is not "just a journal entry"
16:23 garycmartin walterbender: sure you could send the journal object to someone (would be the last snapshot of the journal activity mined award data)
16:23 gonzalo_ walterbender, because ++
16:23 ok
16:23 is a entry about other entries then
16:24 ok
16:24 walterbender I had not thought of it that way... I thought it was additional metadata about the current entry only
16:24 silbe walterbender: looking forward to more elaborate explanations of what you'd like to achieve. I could imagine that the "trophy" stuff would be encompassing enough to warrant special status, i.e. explicit handling in the details view rather than piggy-backing on a generic mechanism for letting activities show metadata of their choosing. And as to "a series of rubrics", I have to admit I don't understand what you're saying there.
16:24 walterbender gonzalo_: only in an activity like portfolio would cross entry interactions happen
16:25 gonzalo_: in my thinking at least
16:25 garycmartin walterbender: Sharing the Awards/Achievements activity would show up in the neighbourhood, like letting people in to see your trophy room.
16:25 gonzalo_ walterbender, ok
16:25 walterbender garycmartin: I agree that like portfolio, we could have an achievements activity
16:26 garycmartin: but why wouldn't we use the journal metadata to store each activty's award status?
16:26 and why not display it in the journal entry itself?
16:27 silbe: I think we could go pretty far with short texts and icons displayed on demand in the detail view
16:27 gonzalo_ walterbender, the last time we agreed in saving in the metadata, and do a portfolio like activity to explore the posibilities
16:27 and later move to the journal detail view
16:27 walterbender gonzalo_: yes... but in retrospect, I think the journal view is more important
16:28 gonzalo_: because that is the place the kids are used to looking
16:28 gonzalo_ walterbender, but is more difficult agree in this changes
16:28 walterbender the portfolio is a weekly event
16:29 gonzalo_ walterbender, anyway, would be good know you changed your mind :)
16:29 walterbender gonzalo_: yes... but even in the portfolio, it is not going to be meaningful if we don't agree on a protocol
16:29 gonzalo_: it was not until Holmes last week that I did change my mind
16:29 gonzalo_ walterbender, yes, that is the reason i am asking you....
16:29 walterbender, ok
16:30 walterbender I don't really think the protocol needs to be very complex... some simple XML-like markup
16:30 gonzalo_ walterbender, i agree, may be json is better
16:30 walterbender gonzalo_: sure... that is what I use at the moment
16:31 a json-encoded python dictionary
16:31 gonzalo_ walterbender, great
16:31 garycmartin walterbender: yep, portfolio is the excellent current example. However apart from some simple awards we could currently generate ("You shared a write document with 10 others!", "You've painted 25 pictures", etc), we need activities to flag useful metadata that is custom to their use. So maybe it's a sophisticated block not yet used in TA, so that the Awards activity can show a greyed out "Used accelerometer block" cup with a text hint to try an enga
16:31 a learner to go look for it and give it a go. You the author would need to flag these interesting "achieved", and "to achieve" cases.
16:31 walterbender garycmartin: that is exactly what I mocked up in TA
16:32 garycmartin: but I didn't do anything fancy on the display side yet
16:32 gonzalo_ walterbender, garycmartin you need look at kids playing in facebook games :)
16:33 walterbender silbe: the rubrics are the heuristics to trigger ^^ that each activity needs to sort out
16:33 gonzalo_: which brings up the another journal-related feature: making the journal look more like the facebook or google+ wall
16:34 the problem there is probably gong to be performance
16:34 gonzalo_ walterbender, this will be very easy to do generating a html page
16:34 garycmartin walterbender: Displaying the award data in the Journal detail view means each Journal entry would need to be viewed for a kid to try and find what awards they had and did not have. The stand alone activity would give a view of how you were doing on all activity/sugar fronts.
16:35 walterbender garycmartin: yes... we need both
16:36 garycmartin walterbender: very happy to see an agreed on metadata format for text and/or svg badges, just didn't want us to stall on a redesign of the details view (I hoped we would have just exposed the full detail view rather than the 'add notes' feature recently landed).
16:37 gonzalo_ garycmartin, +1
16:39 another data i want standarize is the state on the activities, by example the size and color of the pen used in Paint or the font used in Write
16:39 is supposed when you open a draw, you continue working as the last time you closed it
16:40 but right now is not implemented in most activities
16:40 maybe we can agree in saving in the metadata "state" a json with the info needed
16:41 this is no so important than the achievemts metadata, because will be used only by the activity
16:41 garycmartin gonzalo_: Yep, that would be great, should store as much state as we can. I think this stalled previously and then was lost in the churn due to the metadata bugs in early Sugar (it lost all metadata after a reboot).
16:41 gonzalo_ but is good have this as goal for the maintainers
16:41 garycmartin, ahh, good to know
16:42 silbe gonzalo_: I don't think we need to come up with a common data format for that. It doesn't need to be interoperable between activities. (It doesn't hurt either, of course).
16:42 walterbender gonzalo_: I thought you were going somewhere else: the color you chose in Paint would be the default color in Write....
16:42 gonzalo_ garycmartin, would be good set it as a objective as we did with the toolbars
16:42 walterbender gonzalo_: don't most activities already maintain state?
16:42 gonzalo_ walterbender, no
16:43 garycmartin gonzalo_: using metadata variables would be the easy was, no special writing needed, you just set metadata variables, and remember to pick them up at resume.
16:43 gonzalo_ silbe, i agree, is not for interoperability
16:43 walterbender maybe time for another marathon
16:43 garycmartin s/was/way
16:43 gonzalo_ walterbender, :)
16:43 we can do a wiki page as with the toolbars
16:44 i think worked pretty well
16:44 garycmartin +1
16:45 gonzalo_ #action garycmartin and gonzalo will review and prepare a wiki page checking state saving in activities
16:46 :)
16:46 garycmartin :b
16:46 gonzalo_ i have the action tag easy :)
16:46 finally.... the last topic i want talk is about the help proposal
16:47 i don't think we will found a ideal solution for all our problems
16:47 but, may be we can check what activities need a help
16:48 and what features need be more visible in the ui
16:48 like by example, changing levels in Maze activity
16:48 i don't think will be easy to agree on this
16:49 but if we do not start never will be done
16:49 garycmartin gonzalo_: Does maze resume to the current level yet?
16:49 gonzalo_ garycmartin, no
16:49 this for the previous topic :)
16:49 garycmartin gonzalo_: ;)
16:49 walterbender gonzalo_: my problem with the help proposal as it stands it lacks context
16:50 gonzalo_: not that I have any better ideas
16:50 gonzalo_: It may be more simple to launch a Mallard doc in Browse
16:50 gonzalo_ walterbender, yes, my proposal is useful only for simple activities, not for turtleart
16:51 walterbender, but changing to browse would be very disruptive for the user, you don't like model dialogs! :)
16:52 walterbender gonzalo_: I was thinking it would happen from either the Homeview menu or the Frame menu
16:52 gonzalo_ walterbender, i think using the same HelpButton, we can add a way to the activity to provide context
16:53 walterbender, maybe i can try to play a little and do a prototype for turtleart
16:53 JT4sugar gonzalo_, I think your proposal is good for basic understanding of Icons and features. A link then to a mallard doc to dig deeper would then seem appropriate. BTW this is what I was trying to get at with my Discovery mode idea-info in palettes when hovered over to give basic info
16:53 gonzalo_ you already have a lot of info
16:54 JT4sugar, yes, i agree
16:54 walterbender gonzalo_: all the strings you need for TA are already there... there is a help string for every block and every button
16:54 gonzalo_ may be we need agree a "more info" button
16:55 s/agree/add/
16:55 walterbender, yes, i know
16:55 walterbender gonzalo_: I think we need two things: some simple inline help like you have proposed and a more comprehensive document-style help available in Browse.
16:56 the latter could be accessed from the homeview menu
16:56 maybe we need to add an entry in activity.info for the help doc?
16:57 gonzalo_ walterbender, and call browse or the help activity with a parameter?
16:57 or should be caontained in the activity?
16:58 contained
16:59 JT4sugar Ganzalo-I think if we approach as layers of understanding coming up with solution that is leveled-Basics(palettes) then to push the learner and challenge through the deeper discovery documents-This could then be tied to achievement/award ideas dicussed earlier possibly?
17:01 garycmartin Could the current source view be extended to view html content now we're moving to webkit?
17:01 gonzalo_ JT4sugar, i think every idea is already complex to discuss/implement on his own. trying to implement/discuss togheter only can exponentialy do this worst :(
17:02 JT4sugar gonzalo_, Understand
17:02 gonzalo_ garycmartin, the view sorce window  in sugar? can be done
17:03 garycmartin, i don't know if webkit is a desirable dependency in sugar
17:03 garycmartin, but areyou thinking in a similar window for the help?
17:03 garycmartin gonzalo_: are not Browse and Read critical for Sugar?
17:04 gonzalo_ garycmartin, i get your point
17:06 ok, will try to do a improved proposal in sugar-devel (the next night i can't sleep) :)
17:06 garycmartin gonzalo_: yes, I was just thinking an inline, view source, like help for detailed documents (your proposal is separate to this detailed content). Then though perhaps view source should be able to handle the displaying of html anyway (and a 'Documentation' button could take you directly there).
17:06 s/though/thought
17:07 gonzalo_ garycmartin, manuq proposed put the help button in the toolbar where we have the title entry, but open the activity with the toolbar visible, when is a new instance
17:08 this have sense, because if not the user do not see the title entry
17:08 garycmartin FWIW in IOS, there is no formal way of displaying help, every developer makes their own call, some with overlays, or none, or web views, just depends on how complicated they are.
17:08 gonzalo_ garycmartin, we can do it better :)
17:08 walterbender needs to run out soon
17:09 gonzalo_ too
17:09 garycmartin me as well...
17:09 gonzalo_ ok, the meeting is already long
17:09 anybody else need touch a topic?
17:10 should i satrt the countdown?
17:10 5
17:10 silbe 4
17:10 garycmartin 3
17:10 gonzalo_ 2
17:10 1
17:11 #endmeeting
17:11 meeting Meeting ended Tue Mar 20 17:11:02 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
17:11 Minutes: http://meeting.ole.org/sugar-m[…]-20T15:03:51.html
17:11 Log:     http://meeting.ole.org/sugar-m[…]12-03-20T15:03:51
17:11 gonzalo_ thanks all!
17:11 satellit_ .iso for PC's to match what you are doing?
17:11 there was talk of this in past
17:12 garycmartin gonzalo_: re help button in the toolbar where we have the title entry open toolbar by default on net activities, sounds very plausible and will avoid running out of toolbar space.
17:12 gonzalo_: Will have a think about it, but need to dash away for now.
17:12 Thanks for running the meeting gonzalo_ !
17:16 dirakx garycmartin: ping
17:16 gonzalo_: thanks for the link
17:19 garycmartin dirakx: pong (for a short time)
17:22 walterbender has quit IRC
17:23 dirakx garycmartin: just an small req on calculate...can we make the color of the error message the same, now its showing only the last letter in red..
17:24 garycmartin: I have a small patch that turns the letters to black as a possible solution.
17:25 garycmartin dirakx: can you email it to me and I will have a look and a think about it? Have been landing some patches today for a release later.
17:25 dirakx garycmartin: ok
17:26 garycmartin: related code begins on  line 164 on calculate.py
17:27 garycmartin dirakx: OK just email what you have, sure I'll get the gist if it's a smallish change to try ;-)
17:27 dirakx garycmartin: ok thanks
17:28 garycmartin has to dash
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17:51 gonzalo_ hay dirakx, we missed you in the meeting :)+
18:01 dirakx gonzalo_: sorry I was deep into work.
18:11 gonzalo_ dirakx, no problem, nice to see you here
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