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#sugar-meeting, 2012-02-28

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15:00 erikos #startmeeting
15:00 meeting Meeting started Tue Feb 28 15:00:42 2012 UTC. The chair is erikos. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:00 manuq good morning
15:00 erikos hey, who is around for the dev meeting?
15:01 good morning manuq!
15:01 garycmartin Afternoon all!
15:01 manuq garycmartin: good afternoon!
15:01 garycmartin manuq: :)
15:01 silbe good afternoon everyone!
15:02 erikos hey silbe and garycmartin
15:02 seen gonzalo as well already
15:02 gonzalo hello all :)
15:02 erikos gives 2 more minutes before we dive in
15:03 I guess last week everybody was depressed there was no dev meeting
15:04 the first one we missed since months
15:04 JT_4sugar Hello all-just sitting in with hope for few minutes at end to discuss my service learning project for my Masters in Learning Design and Technology at Purdue, which I would like to collaborate with Dev team on
15:04 erikos I was at the GTK+ hackfest, report here: http://erikos.sweettimez.de/20[…]tk-hackfest-brno/
15:04 JT_4sugar: sure we can do this
15:05 let's start
15:05 JT_4sugar Thanks!
15:05 erikos #topic status of the GTK3 port
15:05 Manuel and Gonzalo have been working on getting the look and feel of sub-toolbars right
15:05 we are close to land this
15:06 I am currently working on doing the same for the palettes (e.g. Stop button)
15:06 and we have as well the screenshot patch from Gonzalo we should land in the 0.95.5 release tomorrow
15:07 gonzalo erikos, are you looking at palettes with menus too?
15:08 erikos gonzalo: do we have an example here in an ported activity?
15:08 gonzalo erikos, in Read the forward / back buttons
15:08 erikos gonzalo: ahhh, cool - yeah we should do this as well
15:09 manuq erikos: also in Browse forward / backward buttons, history palletes
15:09 palettes
15:09 walterbender <walterbender!~chatzilla@50-78-9-4-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:09 manuq walterbender: welcome
15:09 walterbender hi...
15:10 garycmartin walterbender: hi!
15:10 erikos manuq: ok, great
15:10 manuq: gonzalo thanks for the hint I was so focused on the non-menu ones...:)
15:11 manuq: gonzalo let's throw things together after the meeting in #sugar
15:11 gonzalo erikos, no problem was "fun" :)
15:11 manuq erikos: +1
15:12 gonzalo now i understan a little more that part :)
15:12 erikos gonzalo: yeah, that is the good part about it
15:12 manuq: any news on Browse?
15:12 is sure there are some
15:12 manuq erikos: so, I'm finishing the PDF feature
15:13 erikos: for this cycle, I decided to make it simple, and don't use a plugin
15:13 erikos garycmartin: I hope you can live with opening the pdf in a new tab
15:13 manuq erikos: a side effect is that, this way, we cannot do the opening in the same tab, as garycmartin pointed
15:13 erikos garycmartin: doing it in the same tab was too challenging for this cycle
15:14 manuq: yes
15:14 gonzalo manuq, +1
15:14 garycmartin erikos: understood, perhaps another cycle.
15:14 manuq so, I made a new spec for this
15:14 erikos garycmartin: sure, I think it is possible to get there
15:16 manuq what I'm doing is, if the tab has an external PDF that was not saved to journal, next time the activity is started, it ask to download again in the same tab
15:16 ajay hi all.
15:16 erikos: thanks for the invite !!
15:16 manuq ajay: hello
15:16 erikos hey ajay, great you made it!
15:17 ajay erikos: my pleasure .. :)
15:17 manuq: ^^
15:18 manuq ajay: nice to see you around
15:18 so,
15:18 erikos manuq: yeah, that sounds as a good deal to me
15:19 manuq also, for hiper links in the PDF, they will be opened directly in Browse
15:19 erikos manuq: the information is not lost, but we do not download without confirmation
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15:20 manuq gonzalo was investigating how to open PDF hiperlinks in Read with Browse
15:21 gonzalo yes, a nice improvement with the new gtk3 backend
15:21 manuq so, I expect to have a working patch by today, so erikos can review
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15:23 erikos gonzalo: so you would launch Browse from Read when the user clicks on a link?
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15:23 gonzalo erikos, now we have a event when we click in a link
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15:24 gonzalo erikos, i can save the url in the journal and open browse with it, like we are doing now with chat
15:24 erikos gonzalo: ok, I see
15:24 gonzalo is not veeeery nice, but is better than what we had before
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15:25 manuq I think we need a proper solution to open activities inside another
15:25 gonzalo the same event can be used in the browse pdf tab to open another tab
15:25 manuq (from inside another)
15:25 erikos manuq: yes
15:26 manuq this should be very clear to the user, so it doesn't disturb the current activity
15:26 erikos manuq: yeah, next cycle
15:26 manuq we need to ensure the user wants to do that
15:26 garycmartin manuq: yes as long as it is user triggered/confirmed (to prevent scripting)
15:26 manuq erikos: ok!
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15:27 manuq garycmartin: right
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15:28 garycmartin manuq: yes something like an alert strip confirmation, 'Open this link in Browse' type thing.
15:29 manuq garycmartin: yes, the Sugar alert below the main toolbar should work
15:29 we can discuss further next cycle
15:29 erikos sounds good ;p
15:30 manuq: we have a bit of stuff to fix as well in Browse
15:30 manuq: like palettes and upload....
15:30 manuq erikos: yeah
15:30 erikos manuq: we have to get back to this once the palette/subtoolbar stuff is fixed
15:31 manuq erikos: so, the upload signal hasn't landed yet in webkitgtk, right?
15:31 erikos manuq: right, I think we have drive it a bit
15:31 s/have/have to
15:32 manuq: today on my plate is palettes/screenshots then tomorrow I want to follow up on the upload one
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15:33 manuq erikos: great, I will check other pending tasks after finishing the PDF feature
15:33 erikos any more stuff on this topic (gtk+ 3)?
15:33 manuq: wonderful
15:33 gonzalo erikos, after palettes, there are more blockers in gtk3 ?
15:34 anything you want talk about your talks with gtk developers?
15:34 (related of course, beer talk not alowed here)
15:34 :)
15:34 manuq is afraid wiki.sl is down for maintenance
15:34 walterbender when should we do the push to convert the existing activities to gtk-3?
15:34 erikos gonzalo: hmmm there are a few bugs, but I don't think a major blocker in the toolkit
15:35 gonzalo: we have a bit more cleanup todo in the theme
15:35 manuq walterbender: I think the theme should be finished first
15:35 erikos gonzalo: there are a few upstream changes in gtk3 with theme handling
15:35 gonzalo erikos, changes landing before F17?
15:35 walterbender manuq: OK. makes sense.
15:36 erikos gonzalo: landing with F17
15:36 gonzalo erikos, will break our theme?
15:36 erikos gonzalo: yeah, but I have patches for that
15:36 gonzalo erikos, ok :)
15:36 erikos gonzalo: need to see if there is more
15:37 gonzalo erikos, ok, today is fedora 17 alpha
15:37 we should try it
15:38 erikos gonzalo: yeah, not sure it is in there already
15:38 gonzalo: but I did try with gtk master
15:38 gonzalo erikos, well i hope they don't land many changes after alpha....
15:39 erikos gonzalo: well, the gtk-schedule is not strictly tight
15:39 to the Fedora one
15:39 there will be changes after alpha, but good ones as well ;p
15:39 like basic touch support
15:39 garycmartin erikos: :)
15:39 gonzalo nice :)
15:39 erikos I don't worry those changes, though
15:40 gonzalo ok
15:41 erikos so, what else about the GTK hackfest
15:41 I hope I covered most of it in my blog post
15:42 here are notes as well: https://live.gnome.org/Hackfes[…]GtkBrno2012/Notes
15:42 manuq erikos: yes, pretty well covered
15:42 erikos so, in general GTK is moving forward, the toolkit is evolving
15:43 there are people that think how to make it better and up-to-date with other toolkits
15:43 and they are open for participation for widgets like the Gtk.Menu
15:44 hints at palettes there
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15:44 manuq great
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15:45 erikos I can highly recommend anyone to go to a Gtk hackfest when there is another one
15:45 most of those hackers will be at Guadec as well: http://guadec.org/
15:46 while we are already at it:
15:46 manuq yes, would be great to get there
15:46 gonzalo today! :)
15:46 erikos gonzalo: :) you know I am always up-to-date :)
15:46 manuq gonzalo: july 26 - aug 1
15:47 erikos manuq: the call for participation was today ;p
15:47 gonzalo ohh, nice to have my birthday in spain :)
15:47 erikos I have sent a mail about the documentation for Sugar
15:47 manuq erikos: saw that one
15:48 walterbender I can probably get the organizers to agree to a Sugar talk if someone is going...
15:48 be nice to let the community know about the GTK-3 work
15:49 has the GNOME ADBOARD call in 10 minutes :)
15:49 erikos walterbender: yes, we need to be more present in the GNOME community
15:49 walterbender: I applied a few days ago for the membership
15:49 walterbender I'll see if I can get us a slot in the program
15:50 satellit__ <satellit__!~satellit@208-100-149-217.bendbroadband.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:50 erikos walterbender: great, I more and more see Sugar as a spin-off from GOME
15:50 s/GOME/GNOME
15:50 walterbender: at least technology wise
15:50 walterbender erikos: that would be a good place to be over time
15:50 satellit__ has quit IRC
15:50 erikos walterbender: exactly
15:50 walterbender: that was one intention from my doc mail as well
15:51 walterbender: if we use the same infrastructure as GNOME for documentation
15:51 we can merge the people as well
15:51 they are doing a fantastic job in GNOME documantation
15:51 and they were interested in Sugar as well
15:52 walterbender I'm going to write  TA manual as a place to learn more about their toolchain
15:52 got a good start...
15:52 erikos was as well talking to the doc team at Brno https://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/BrnoDocs2012
15:52 walterbender: yeah, that is a great start, I did a quick test as well and it was quite straight forward
15:53 silbe walterbender: please keep us posted whether it's a good fit for Sugar (which is Python based, not C/C++ based like most Gnome apps)
15:53 walterbender erikos: I need to sport out i18n, esp. for artwork
15:53 Since my figures are all SVG, there should be a way to do it
15:54 needs to run to somewhere I can get onto the GNOME call...
15:54 erikos walterbender: enjoy, and feel free to be loud about us there :)
15:55 silbe walterbender: cjl may have an idea what tool is best for i18n of XML files
15:55 erikos posted the documentation he found about i18n in mallard in the doc-thread
15:56 walterbender has quit IRC
15:56 erikos otherwise if in doubt ask mallard-Shaun
15:56 gonzalo: ok, more questions on the GTK-hackfest output?
15:58 gonzalo erikos, could you report the pending issues with our theme (the slider size is the only i remember)
15:58 manuq erikos: anyone we can ask about the theme?
15:58 erikos gonzalo: I think manu had that list... manuq where was that again?
15:59 manuq: what do you want to ask?
15:59 manuq erikos: about the pending tasks like the slider size, I already asked at #gnome-design but I haven't got help
16:00 erikos manuq: I think gtk+ is the better place for this
16:00 manuq here is the list, but wiki is down: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3/Theme
16:00 erikos: ok
16:00 erikos manuq: ahh, yeah shit
16:00 manuq ok, I will try further
16:00 erikos manuq: yeah, they are quite responsive there
16:01 manuq cool
16:01 erikos manuq: if we are stuck-stuck I can ping cosimo directly
16:01 but is better to ask in the channel first
16:02 gonzalo: so yeah, the list is at: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3/Theme
16:02 manuq about the slider size, I tried a hack Company told me, but it doesn't work, and there should be a simpler way to do it in the CSS
16:02 garycmartin erikos: will GTK come up with a theme tuned for touch? I've not seen any thing mentioned, or is that something GNOME would work on in the future?
16:02 gonzalo erikos, ok
16:02 erikos manuq: ohh, did you look already at the a11y theme?
16:03 manuq erikos: is it part of gnome-themes-standard?
16:03 erikos manuq: yes, you need the latest checkout
16:04 manuq erikos: ok, did pull just now, I will check the changes
16:04 erikos manuq: gnome-themes-standard/themes/a11y-base.css
16:04 manuq erikos: yes you mentioned that a11y got simpler defaults
16:05 erikos garycmartin: ok, there have been discussions about widgets that does not work for touch
16:05 garycmartin: like the spinbutton, that has changed already to something usable
16:06 manuq and a bit ugly for now :P
16:06 erikos garycmartin: for a touch theme, you mean bigger sizes etc?
16:06 gonzalo erikos, talked about move the buttons in the spinbutton?
16:06 erikos manuq: in master?
16:06 gonzalo: can you elaborate?
16:07 manuq erikos: no, I mean, in current Sugar, that's the work we need to get done
16:07 garycmartin erikos: well larger size is certainly part of it, also trying to reduce issues when obscuring controls when using fingers.
16:07 gonzalo erikos, right now, you have the number, the + button and the - button
16:08 erikos garycmartin: hmm, there have not been any talk I heard of, but I let you know when I come across something
16:08 gonzalo erikos, for our theme with the rounded shapes, should be better if we can have the - button , the number and later the + button
16:08 erikos garycmartin: I want to follow the gnome-design team a bit as they are doing interesting stuff
16:09 manuq also, when I tried to theme the buttons of that widget, the SVGs were reduced because of the widget border radius
16:09 garycmartin erikos: yep seems wise, they have more 'hands on decks' than us.
16:10 erikos garycmartin: yeah, they are at least a few more people, actually I had some interesting thoughts from them on Sugar user experience, i can share with you
16:10 garycmartin erikos: fab. email?
16:11 erikos garycmartin: I have to write it down for you, /me makes a note
16:11 garycmartin :)
16:11 manuq erikos: I don't see a mailing list specific for gnome-design
16:12 erikos gonzalo: did you check if the order in the widget is changeble?
16:12 manuq: irc channel
16:13 manuq: maybe that is something I could you guys update on as well, how to interact with them, did ask both the gtk and gnome-design people
16:13 gonzalo erikos, i didn't checked, but manu did it without success
16:13 manuq erikos: yes, will try in #gtk
16:15 erikos gonzalo: ok, so in general: gtk did make the change of the widget just recently, if it is not like we would expect it to, ask if it would make sense for them to make it that way
16:15 walterbender <walterbender!~chatzilla@2001:4830:2446:ff01:5a94:6bff:fe7a:1bc8> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:15 erikos gonzalo: the good thing is, this is open source, and we are not left with a toolkit we do not have a certain control over
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16:17 erikos quickly two notes about interacting with gtk and gnome-design:
16:17 gonzalo erikos, probably is a conf to put in sttings.ini
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16:19 erikos gtk: the discusions happen on irc #gtk (Gimpnet), that is probably the best way to interact with them, there is no scheduled meeting or similar
16:19 the email list works for concrete questions as well (but the community is irc based)
16:20 manuq erikos: good to know, thanks
16:20 erikos gnome-design: no design meeting here neither they use irc as well to coordinate #gnome-design (gimpnet)
16:20 and for async discussions and designs they use the wiki
16:21 manuq ok
16:21 erikos interesting name spaces here are: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeOS/Design/Whiteboards
16:22 and here is more info: http://live.gnome.org/Design
16:23 manuq erikos: perfect
16:23 erikos gonzalo: no idea if it is configurable
16:23 gonzalo erikos, this crazy guys are trying to reinvent everything :( and :)
16:24 erikos manuq: about the pdf overlay: http://live.gnome.org/Design/A[…]#Tentative_Design
16:24 manuq: scroll down to "Selections & Performing Actions"
16:25 gonzalo: hehe, they are designers
16:25 gonzalo: but they have nice ideas and an interesting approach
16:25 manuq erikos: great to see that
16:26 erikos manuq: (maybe there is some code as well somewhere around who does that if you need to have another example code e.g. positioning)
16:26 gonzalo erikos, yeah, and in the good side, they are looking at the different ways used in all the patforms, and thinking in mobile and touch experiences too
16:26 erikos gonzalo: yes, exactly
16:27 ok, great - so let's cover point (2)
16:27 * current status of the development cycle [2] Tomorrow will be the 0.95.5 release, we will enter String and UI freeze after that date
16:28 let's get things done!
16:28 any questions about the schedule?
16:29 ajay has quit IRC
16:29 gonzalo i think there are no changes in strings/ui proposed in sugar
16:30 erikos gonzalo: yeah, only our fixups in gtk3
16:30 gonzalo: but those are no changes
16:30 silbe I'd like to remind everyone that we have quite a few patches in the queue, at least one of which (#1032) is an important bugfix. Reviews would be appreciated.
16:30 gonzalo yes, are changes to not change the ui :)
16:31 silbe, can you remember us what is #1032? no bugs.s.o right now
16:32 silbe gonzalo: PW#1032 (but Patchwork is down, too) is about sugar-datastore returning entries without uid if the metadata gets corrupted on-disk (especially after a crash)
16:32 erikos silbe: didn't we already review that one?
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16:34 erikos silbe: in any way, feel free to send a list of bugs you care about and where you await review
16:35 JT4sugar: you had something to bring up?
16:35 silbe erikos: there was neither an ACK for the first version nor any kind of feedback for the second or third version.
16:35 JT4sugar Yes-I have typed out so let me cut an paste in
16:35 Hello all -I have chosen to do a Service Learning Project around Sugar for my Masters Learning Design & Tech program at Purdue U
16:36 Wiki seems to be down-let me preface by saying I have read feature policy which I see flowing from technical to learning
16:36 I am coming at this from the opposite direction learning to technical because my lack of technical expertise.
16:36 I am looking to collaborate with entire Dev team to push through these constructivist learning principles if they are technically feasible?
16:36 I am coming to you at this point to start the thinking and see if either of these paths can and should be followed
16:36 When you get the chance would you please take a look-http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Jt4sugar
16:37 This is built off some of my previous work along with Fall 2011 semester work with Dr. Dana Driscoll
16:37 and her Literacy, Technology, and Civic Engagement class at Oakland U
16:37 They did an entire class semester project around Sugar-Literacy and Writing process efforts
16:37 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Owl_Jr._Project
16:37 From all this work we have distilled two features we think our apt to enhance the Sugar Learning
16:37 Platform in powerful ways for learners and teachers alike, adhere and support constructivist principles,
16:38 and build on the reflection feature
16:38 I have set up the shell pages for
16:38 1. Inquiry Learning Global Chat-http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]rning_global_chat
16:38 Peer and Teacher questioning across activities with capture log
16:38 2. Discovery Mode-http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]es/Discovery_mode
16:39 Creating a mode allowing teacher/guides/facilitator to learn about Sugar inside
16:39 Sugar activities through palettes that open and contain description and use cases for icon/process
16:39 erikos JT4sugar: interesting stuff
16:39 JT4sugar Would like to set up a couple of brainstorm sessions around the possibilities but don't want to tie up
16:39 Dev Mtg time that centers around 0.96. Can meet another time here or #sugar
16:39 I will definitely need collaborative help with the hope of having the Dev team
16:40 Please suggest what works best for you all
16:40 thats it
16:40 gonzalo JT4sugar, probaly the mailing list is the best place to talk about this
16:40 erikos JT4sugar: I think a good idea as a start is to open email threads about it to get some first feedback
16:41 from there we can take it to the Design and then to the Devs
16:41 gonzalo just now is a bad moment because the wiki is down :(
16:41 JT4sugar Erikos-That was plan I just wanted to get info to you all to at least begin to ponder-appreciate the time
16:42 Unfortnately wiki down but I will take to list ---Dev list?  Dev and IAEP?
16:42 gonzalo JT4sugar, you need know we finished the feature acceptance period for sugar 0.96 too
16:42 garycmartin JT4sugar: will keep an eye out for your email thread and take a look at your wiki pages once sunjammer is back online.
16:42 gonzalo JT4sugar, sugar-devel
16:43 JT4sugar Gonzalo-Yes about 0.96 was looking at 0.98 and realize its six month process
16:43 erikos JT4sugar: wonderful, looking forward to that
16:43 gonzalo JT4sugar, perfect
16:43 erikos JT4sugar: yes, we have a 6 months release cycle
16:43 silbe JT4sugar: don't let the Sugar schedule prevent you from working on anything. If it doesn't get into release X, it'll get into release X+1.
16:43 JT4sugar Cool-Thanks guys!
16:44 erikos wants to tie up now to get back to work
16:44 any urgent questions, comments?
16:45 gonzalo erikos, no from my part
16:45 erikos ok, thanks everyone for participating!
16:45 ajay erikos: not from my side; a great learning meeting :)
16:45 manuq thanks everyone
16:46 erikos ajay: happy it was interesting for you!
16:46 5
16:46 silbe 4
16:46 ajay erikos: )
16:46 manuq 3
16:46 ajay 2 ?
16:46 erikos ajay: got it :)
16:46 ajay :)
16:46 garycmartin Thanks guys, plenty of pages to go read...
16:46 manuq garycmartin: same here :)
16:46 erikos who is number 1?
16:47 silbe erikos: garycmartin, of course ;)
16:47 garycmartin 1! :)
16:47 dogi is zero
16:47 erikos #endmeeting
16:47 meeting Meeting ended Tue Feb 28 16:47:28 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:47 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-28T15:00:42.html
16:47 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]12-02-28T15:00:42
16:47 erikos thanks!
16:47 garycmartin thanks erikos!
16:51 satellit_ JT4sugar: I posted links to tutorials on the discussion side of OWL page maybe they could all be combined in a .pdf file for training
16:52 when wiki is back up
16:52 I think adobe acrobat will do this
16:55 JT4sugar satellit_, Thanks I'll take a look when wiki returns-a key we need to work on is getting the language down to the user level. Mind set needs to be how do I write up in a way a 10yr or my grandmother can understand
16:58 walterbender gonzalo, erikos: the Guadec call for papers just was announced today... let's get a Sugar paper written!!
16:58 satellit_ these are on sugar creation kit pages one is http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]o_Sugar_Interface  which are annotated screenshots of features (picture is worth a 1000 words) plus are easy to translate to other languages..with google translate
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17:03 JT4sugar satellit_, If we could somehow figure out how to write SCK pages in that format it would be a Godsend-We have pages for technical audience(A great thing) think of this as college age audience. Our challenege is to walk this langauge down to 5th grade level. Can you revert back to a 5th grader I'm sure you were a good one!
17:05 satellit_ JT4sugar: I have lately been writing these illustrated tutorials to help people understand sugar.....suggestions are welcome. It is easy to print to .pdf from the web pages in firefox on my Ubuntu PC
17:05 I am getting a lot of "hits" on the pages....
17:06 gonzalo walterbender, +1 :)
17:08 walterbender gonzalo: maybe a paper about the gtk-2 to gtk-3 process?
17:09 gonzalo walterbender, i don't know, need think about it
17:10 manuq walterbender: maybe erikos slides for the hackfest can help here
17:13 cjl reads backscroll
17:15 JT4sugar satellit_, Will you create the PDF's that you can and post then through an email. I would be interested to open them on my XO and test the usability of of these PDF's from a learning perspective to see if toggling between PDF and the back to interface to test/practice/discover described functionality
17:17 satellit_ ok  where can I find your e-mail? I have 3 test ones I did this morning. (It would be better to make now wiki pages just for this though)
17:17 s/new
17:18 erikos walterbender: I think a similar talk that I gave in Brno would work
17:21 cjl walterbender: silbe erikos iIf you go wit hGNOME documentation tools (e.g. Mallard), I believe they have the needed tools/workflow to generate Po files  for instance  http://l10n.gnome.org/module/gnome-devel-docs/
17:22 JT4sugar satellit_, If you could make a seperate wiki page for each fuction that would seem best to allow capture for each in one page. I could see the PDF's being arranged in a learnig module by using Turtle Portfolio Activity-email: jtis4stx@hotmail.com
17:22 cjl I'd habe to learn more about it from the gnome i18n list, but I think the needed stuff is available to shoehorn into our L10n process.
17:26 satellit_ JT4sugar: I PDF sent by e-mail
17:29 erikos cjl: yes
17:29 cjl: we just need a taker for this task :)
17:30 cjl Well, I don't think I'm the one to learn a lot about Mallard, but I will find out about hoqw they hook it up to their L10n infrastructure 9Damned Lies).
17:32 As for other HTML, there is the html2po in the Transdlate Toolkity, but I haven't had a lot of luck with it.  http://translate.sourceforge.n[…]i/toolkit/html2po
17:37 JT4sugar satellit_, Thanks
17:37 satellit_ do you want 2 more?
17:38 I do think that it could be cleaned up for pdf use though
17:41 JT4sugar satellit_, Sure send them over I will have Emily from Dr. Driscoll class look over them tomorrow when we meet tomorrow to begin to get some feedback
17:41 satellit_ ok
17:41 1 per e-mail...
17:42 JT4sugar Sure -
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17:47 satellit_ 3 sent
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22:11 cjl 20 minutes to SLOBs meeting. Who is bringing the donuts?
22:25 walterbender cjl: I baked cookies
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22:26 cjl walterbender: Damn, my browser is set to reject cookies. . .
22:27 I'll have to settle for a cuppa tea  ?
22:28 walterbender where'd you find that glyph?
22:28 robert__ <robert__!47b87efc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.> has joined #sugar-meeting
22:28 walterbender hi robert
22:29 robert__ hi walter
22:29 cjl walterbender: Saw it in IRC and copied it to a file.
22:29 walterbender we are still waiting for adam and sebastian
22:29 icarito <icarito!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
22:29 walterbender ah, here is icarito
22:29 cjl alsroot was around in the other channel earlier, he's back in Russia now
22:29 walterbender I think we have a quorum
22:30 adam said he'd be here too.
22:30 icarito hi all
22:30 cjl hi icarito
22:30 walterbender but I think gerald cannot make it
22:30 alsroot hi all
22:30 walterbender cjb?
22:30 in any case, we can get started.
22:30 #startmeeting
22:30 meeting Meeting started Tue Feb 28 22:30:53 2012 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
22:30 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
22:31 walterbender welcome all
22:31 we have Robert Fadel here today to lead a discussion about Sugar finances
22:31 cjl welcome robert__
22:31 walterbender and Bradley to discuss the SL/SFc relationship
22:31 and JT4sugar to discuss the website
22:31 plus I will update re GSOC
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22:32 walterbender shall we start with the finances?
22:32 #topic finances
22:32 welcome Robert
22:32 robert__ thanks, walter.
22:32 walterbender it is great to have a pro on board
22:32 do you want to give a quick summary of where we are at?
22:33 robert__ i'm glad to be part of it. i guess i like following you to new adventures
22:33 dogi lurks
22:33 welcome robert__
22:33 robert__ first thanks to cjb, bernie and bradley for helping me get up to speed on the finances and accessing the reports
22:33 walterbender robert__: always can guarantee an adventure :)
22:33 cjl Just saw Oct and Nov monthly reports from SFC via mail.
22:34 walterbender for those who don't know, Robert worked with me at the Media Lab and then OLPC
22:34 robert__ i was given access to the SL finances through several reports over the past 2 weeks.
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22:35 robert__ SFC uses a command-line accounting software called ledger....i am not command-line friendly
22:35 cjb (I'm here, distracted a bit for a few mins)
22:36 cjl Maybe someone can whip up a parser to turn it into csv
22:36 robert__ so entered all the transactions and created identical accounts in GNUcash. the interface is easier for me to use. the board should know there is a mirror set of records
22:37 i have updated the wiki finance page with current summary information and a monthly record of income and expenses for 2011
22:37 walterbender notes that the wiki is back online... thanks dogi
22:37 bkuhn robert__: did you use the GnuCash output in the older versions of ledger?
22:37 cjl http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Finance
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22:38 bkuhn Conservancy used to use GnuCash -- it's unfortunately very bad at tracking multiple virtual funds (which Conservancy has many of), that's why we had to switch.
22:38 cjl #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Finance
22:38 robert__ SFC (bradley) has kept diligent records and accounting notes so this process and the ledger account reconciliation was easy to do.
22:38 it gave me a chance to catch-up on the transactions since 2008.
22:40 the only project that i have reported on separately is Gould. i circulated a report on it this afternoon.
22:41 the reporting going forward will be easy to maintain. the question is information is useful for the community - both in terms of the granularity and format.
22:42 eg. is it sufficient to know the amount of given by individual donors or is the source (check, google, etc) and discreet amounts (but not names) important
22:43 walterbender I don't think the details are important
22:43 cjl I believe we should publicly acknowledge donors (unless they elect otherwise).
22:43 robert__ so we can stick with the format currently on the wiki
22:44 walterbender cjl: maybe privately ack with an offer to publicly ack if they OK?
22:44 bkuhn cjl: Publicly ack'ing donors is pretty complicated, because you need a way to opt out, and need to make sure it's actively maintained.
22:44 walterbender: privately acking already happens as part of what Conservancy does upon receiving a donation.
22:45 cjl Ther is actually an interesting strategy employed by Trisquel which acknowledges the last 5 donors, Apparently one guy donates again everytime his name falls off the list.
22:45 walterbender cjl :)
22:46 JT4sugar Important if donation is directed to fund particular project/feature/travel/conferences etc.  I imagine you can mention what is directed to without supplying individual names
22:46 cjl Never underestimate the fundraising power of vanity.
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22:47 bkuhn cjl: I've worked at various non-profits, some of which publicly acked, some of which didn't...
22:47 ... I never saw an impact from it.
22:47 The only thing I know that tends to work is having a button that people can display their own website.
22:47 icarito we have a transparency policy
22:48 walterbender robert__: a couple of questions: (1) anything we should be doing that we are not? and (2) any thoughts on the process for approval of spending... seemingly a controversial topic
22:48 icarito so in line with that I would support publicly acking if possible
22:48 bkuhn ... Which also handles maintenance as well.
22:48 cjb robert__: thanks, report looks great!
22:48 dogi robert__, I had similar problems as you and I am happy there is now a gnucash file ... maybe I understand this better ...:P
22:49 bkuhn Note that some thing  we do can't really be handled properly by Gnucash.  It's why we switched.
22:49 cjb (happy to see we have an amount of money that lets us do interesting things, too!)
22:49 bkuhn So the Gnucash file might not be perfectly correct.
22:49 dogi cjb, which report?
22:49 robert__ walter: (1) not that i can see yet. it would be useful for me to understand who and how expenses get allocated against specific projects.
22:50 icarito cjb: do you mean the Finance page?
22:50 robert__ walter: i need to catch-up on the controversy to consider a new, better process.
22:51 bkuhn:: the GNUcash ledger reconciles to the ledger ledger on an account to account basis. where do you think there might be an inaccuracy?
22:51 walterbender robert__: I'll see if I can dig up some pointers to old email complaints about our process
22:51 bkuhn robert__: There are technical no specific (sub)projects within Sugar.  At one point, someone asked me to keep track of funds that were spent in pursuit of what the Gould donors had asked for, which is why some things are categorized Gould.
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22:52 bkuhn robert__: I'm not sure.... the important thing is to not treat Gnucash as canonical.  It's entirely possible that for a single project of Conservancy (i.e., Sugar Labs) Gnucash might work.
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22:52 cjl robert__: I notice that recently we've been incurring banking fees, are these new?
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22:52 robert__ bkuhn: agreed
22:52 cjl or are tehy from unexpected causes (e..g bounced deposits).
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22:53 icarito where can I find the gnucash files?
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22:53 bkuhn cjl: What do you mean by "recently incurring"?  There was a canceled payment to Woolf and fees for wiring money
22:53 cjl http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]e_of_transactions
22:54 cancellations and wore fees are fine, just wanted to know the bank wasn't bleeding us wit hnew fees.
22:54 robert__ cjl: there have been banking fees since inception, as bkuhn explains and transactional fees for paypal
22:54 JT4sugar Is Wiki still down I am unable to connect on any of my devices-all four
22:54 bkuhn cjl: I wouldn't have let that happen!
22:54 walterbender we should perhaps leave these details to a side discussion?
22:55 bkuhn Obviously, Conservancy is paying attention to that sort of stuff.
22:55 cjl np
22:55 icarito robert__: yes the wiki Finance page is much improved now, thanks for your hard work!
22:55 cjl Thank you robert__ it is very helpful
22:55 walterbender I guess that now that we have a decent presence of our finances on the wiki, we should discuss more strategic things?
22:55 cjl +1
22:56 walterbender I would like to set our sites on some targeted fund raising
22:56 bkuhn walterbender: I have a whole list of giving programs from my research a few months ago that Sugar Labs fits.
22:56 O
22:56 walterbender maybe we can discuss this at our next meeting?
22:56 bkuhn Conservancy would be happy to help on writing grant proposals.
22:57 walterbender bkuhn: maybe we can grab some time between meetings to do a pass through...
22:58 bkuhn Sure!
22:58 walterbender robert: and I will grab bernie to review the spending procedures with you before the next meeting
22:58 JT4sugar walterbender, are you thinking creating projects and seeking funding for them or trying to fit Sugar Projects into Grant proposals? Or Both?
22:58 walterbender JT4sugar: more the former than the latter, I hope
22:58 cjb Anything on the agenda for this meeting?  Should we talk about Bradley's updated legal doc?
22:59 walterbender yes...
22:59 robert: anything else for today?
22:59 robert__ also you might consider ongoing development with past individual donors. they have contributed $16k in the past
22:59 bernie` walterbender: hello, we're back in business
22:59 walterbender: the FSF sysadmins did a fantastic job today moving sunjammer to the new colo
22:59 cjl speak fo the devil :-)
23:00 dogi congrats bernie` ... and #fsfsys
23:00 bkuhn robert__: Definitely.  Conservancy has tended to avoid this, mainly because we're not collecting opt-out for future contacting.  At some point, it might be good to build a plan for that and perhaps a one-time email to let people opt out.  Then the database could be used for fundraising.
23:01 robert__ bkuhn: thats the right way to start
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23:01 JT4sugar walterbender, It would seem for these purposes a separate account template be created to spur funding towards these and quickly activate these projects and keep funds for each separated
23:02 walterbender JT4sugar: we can allocate budgets for projects, like we did for servers
23:02 JT4sugar: presumably we can do the same for the website...
23:03 shall we move on to Bradley's topic?
23:03 JT4sugar walterbender, That would be advantageous
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23:03 walterbender #topic updating the SL/SFC agreement
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23:04 dogi hi pitere
23:04 walterbender bkuhn: do you want to summarize again for those who don't recall the details?
23:04 bkuhn walterbender: Sure:
23:05 Walter and I met in Prague in November.  At the time, I pointed out to him that while Sugar Labs agreed to pay the "staff cost of Sugar Labs" in the original FSA, this has never actually been charged -- in part because that would probably ultimately charge Sugar Labs far too much than any of us would like...
23:05 ... Typically, Conservancy has (since Sugar Labs joined) standardized on asking for a percentage back.
23:06 Recently, Conservancy's Board of Directors set the default for new projects at 10%.
23:06 I've generally been slowly talking to existing projects about going to the standard.
23:06 As it stands, Conservancy isn't actually self-funding: even if all our 33 projects were at 10%, it wouldn't pay for the existing (already overworked) staff time.
23:06 But, we decided that 10% is the max we want to set in any event.
23:07 There are also tons of minor improvements that we've made to the FSA template (unrelated to this issue) that would be good to take advantage of.
23:07 My email in November had some diffs if people want to look at those.
23:07 That's about it.
23:07 If folks have questions, I'm happy to take them.  And thanks for making the time at the meeting to discuss this!
23:08 walterbender I don't know if there is really anything to discuss at this point... we've gotten a free ride for 3+ years :P
23:08 cjl The 10% amounts to far less than SL would have to pay as a standalone 501(c)3
23:09 walterbender bkuhn: other than a vote, what other action do we need to take? sign the new agreement?
23:09 cjl Which is of course the point of banding together with other projects under the SFC banner.
23:09 bkuhn walterbender: yeah, although, technically speaking, the vote probably needs to be unanimous, at least the way the existing draft is structured because the Current Oversight Board (as defined in the agreement) is everyone and they all must sign.
23:10 cjl I will sign when you spell my name correctly :-)
23:10 bkuhn Anyway, if there's dissent, I'd like to understand why and perhaps work together to get to a unanimous decision anyway.
23:10 cjl: Oh, geez, I'm *so* sorry.
23:10 looks for the problem.
23:11 I'm really sorry, cjl.
23:11 cjl Leonard, not Lenard (two places), top and signature line.
23:11 bkuhn My "list of the current Oversight Board" has your name right....
23:11 ... I'm not sure how it got pasted wrong.
23:11 cjl np
23:11 walterbender Maybe a straw poll and then we can circulate the document for signatures.
23:11 cjl I jsut don't sign documents that have my name wrong
23:12 bkuhn cjl: nor should you.  Actually, I couldn't have "pasted wrong"; I must have retyped it as wrong or accepted an overzealous spell-checker's chagne.
23:12 Anyway, it's fixed in SVN... I can send around a new draft after the meeting.
23:12 robert__ bkuhn: is the 10% incurred on expenses or revenue?
23:12 bkuhn robert__: gross revenue.
23:14 robert__ bkuhn: is there a max or consideration for straight-pass through revenue like it seemed to be for cycling?
23:15 walterbender robert__: good point
23:15 bkuhn robert__: generally not.  We've found that the more money we're handling, the more work it is for us, so it "works out" in the end.  The only other option is keep track of staff time and bill it back, which historically would have cost more.
23:15 cjb or the Gould grant, even?
23:15 bkuhn Also, note that big grants draw the attention of the auditors: I expect to have hours of conversations with the auditors this year about the Cycling project, for example.
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23:16 cjl So in other words, Sugar Labs should not be acting as a passthrough
23:16 cjb bkuhn: but, uh, we don't have 10% of the cycling money
23:16 bkuhn cjb: oh, you mean *historically*?  No, there is no plan to take the 10% back into the past.
23:16 cjb I see
23:17 bkuhn Other than: Additionally, the Project agrees that, on the Effective Date, \$1,887.44 (10\% of the existing Project Fund on the Effective Date), will be donated to Conservancy's general fund.
23:17 (sorry for \'
23:17 s, it's LaTeX)
23:17 the 10% would start coming out of gross revenue as of the effective date.
23:17 walterbender so we should spend all of our money now
23:17 cjl bkuhn: Don't write checks with LaTeX, they'll bounce.
23:18 bkuhn If you think an "As of the Effective Date, " at the beginning of the "Fees" section would help clarify that.
23:18 cjl: lol
23:18 cjb walterbender: :)
23:18 robert__ bkuhn: to be clear, gross revenue received after the effective...sorry i have not read the doc
23:18 bkuhn walterbender: well, if you  want to make a smaller initial donation, that's ok; we can make it lower if you'd like.
23:18 kaametza walterbender: we have a project :)
23:18 cjb I guess this theoretically limits our grant-raising to be for 10*current finances :)
23:18 bkuhn robert__: right, as it is written: 10% gross revenue as the effective date, pls $1,887.44, which is 10% of the cash balance in the fund as of the day I wrote up the draft
23:19 JT4sugar robert__, Would we then set up a sort of escrow account to glean 10% as it comes in to avoid confusion later?
23:19 bkuhn As mentioned, if $1,887.44 seems to steep, I think we're open minded on that.
23:19 cjb (assuming the grant funds are restricted against being used to pay Conservancy)
23:19 bkuhn: it sounds fine to me
23:19 bkuhn JT4sugar: the 10% is taken out at income accrual time.
23:20 cjb: when you write grant proposals, you'll probably need to note some is going to overhead.
23:20 cjb bkuhn: I see
23:20 bkuhn If there's a specific grant you're going for that makes that difficult (some grant-making agencies freak out about paying overhead), we can talk about what to do on it.
23:20 walterbender cjb does bring up a point... some grants have restrictions on overhead... bumped up against this often at MIT (albeit, the overhead was 68%, not 10%)
23:21 cjl cjb depends on the granting agency, NIH grants can have over 60% overhead (indirect costs)
23:21 JT4sugar walterbender, As we seek funds for project saying 10% is going to SFC and their mission I think would strengthen our case
23:21 walterbender so we prob. need a wiggle-room clause that lets us negotiate if necessary
23:21 JT4sugar: in general, I agree
23:22 cjl JT4sugar: We should be upfront about it, I agree it is a plus for fundraising, not a minus.
23:22 bkuhn walterbender: if you have text you wanna propose, lemme know.  I would generally think it would just be a negotiation at the time of the grant.  But I'd be fine for something like "Conservancy agrees to negotiate in good faith with the Project if grant-making agencies take issue with these Fees"
23:23 cjl Since the SFC will be involved in any paperwork with the grantor, this makes sense to me.
23:24 walterbender yes... the SFC will be in on the discussion in any case.
23:24 cjl There should be no surprises.
23:25 kaametza bkuhn: will the SFC be open to international projects management as well? any additional fee?
23:26 bkuhn kaametza: that's a discussion related to the international Local Labs question.  As previously mentioned, we'd likely want to see an NGO we can work with in the municipality where the grant is taking place.  keynote2k is still working on the Local Labs plans.
23:27 But, as it stands, the 10% would cover that... the problem is one that taking donations in from a US source and spending them outside the US has IRS issues that we're still investigating.  Lots of NPOs in the USA do it, so it can clearly be done, but we're still learning the right way to do it.
23:28 pitere has quit IRC
23:29 walterbender we should move on to the next topic... we are already at the 58 minute mark
23:29 to wrap up, we can circulate the new agreement to SLOBs and solicit signatures.
23:29 bkuhn: do you have a preferred way of doing that?
23:30 kaametza bkuhn: hopefully we can find the way, donations and grants are much aprriacted/needed
23:30 bkuhn walterbender: keynote2k tells me getting paper is better. :)  But usually what I do is send it around, ask for people to send a scanned version and then collect paper over time.
23:30 I can send instructions (I have a little instruction file )
23:31 walterbender OK...
23:31 shall we move on to the website?
23:31 cjl Sure
23:31 walterbender #topic website
23:32 bkuhn Thank you for all your time on that last topic!
23:32 walterbender JT4sugar: the floor is yours
23:32 JT4sugar Thanks-As noted in the email I sent out our efforts in content collection keep falling far short for moving forward
23:33 After multiple conversation it is our belief a Sugar Labs investment into a paid internship to bring this to fruition is needed
23:33 walterbender do you have a candidate in mind?
23:33 budget?
23:34 JT4sugar The question for SLOBs is this seen as a critical need and are we willling put funds towards
23:34 cjl depends on the amount of funds
23:35 walterbender JT4sugar: critical yes... how we deal with it is open to discussion
23:35 JT4sugar My thought would be somewhere between 2500-4000 over 3 month period 12weeks 20hrs per week $12hr depends on how paid and tax liability-thought would be to 1099 intern
23:35 icarito JT4sugar: how would an intern solve the problem?
23:36 walterbender JT4sugar: are those numbers based on past experience?
23:36 JT4sugar We need someone to be able to contact our deploymenst secure the content, create copy to go along, and then feed to Christian
23:37 walterbender, I would say yes on past experience seeing the time and cold call effort by RIT Co-op guys this would seem to be what it might take
23:37 walterbender I agree... waiting for the community to do this has not worked... seems like we need a hired gun
23:38 cjb although the hired gun could come from the community :)
23:38 icarito cjb: +1
23:38 JT4sugar Christian and I both wish we had the time-OLPC has either hired pro guns or pro guns did the work pro bono either way it was a pro gun I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.
23:38 walterbender cjb: all the better
23:39 cjl Having failed to step up and provide anything on L10n when requested I acknowledge the difficulty of getting this done by just saying "Hey kids, let's put on a show".
23:40 walterbender JT4sugar: what do your numbers total to?
23:40 kaametza maybe this is a task for the local labs..
23:40 walterbender kaametza: it is a task (has been for a while). if a local lab wants to take it on...
23:41 JT4sugar Walter- 3 months 12 weeks times 20 hrs per week =$2880.00 then its a question of taxes or do we pay intern as subcontractor and 1099.
23:42 walterbender OK... that gives me a general idea. Seems like we can afford it.
23:42 JT4sugar: can you write up contract with deliverables? who will supervise the work?
23:42 bkuhn JT4sugar: subcontractor or 1099?  I'm confused by that distinction.  Who would they subcontract through?
23:42 kaametza JT4sugar: how much content do you need?
23:44 walterbender I presume we would contract a service from someone as oppose to hire anyone
23:44 JT4sugar Bkuhn- If coming out of SFC accounts I don't know if you pay them like employee and pay taxes or can you just cut them checks and leave tax liability to them as if they were subcontracted by SFC(Sugar Labs)
23:44 bkuhn JT4sugar: the "sub" part is what is confusing me, I think.
23:44 They'd be a contractor to Conservancy if paid 1099, which is what we've always done.
23:45 We haven't done W-2 employment relationships with anyone for this sort of thing (yet).
23:45 It generally never made sense because they were acting truly like a contractor (working remotely, self-directed, etc.)
23:45 walterbender JT4sugar: if you can write up something we can put out to bid, presumably we'll get some offers from the community
23:45 JT4sugar Maybe its my Detroit lingo that has me on subcontractor-contractor would be same
23:45 bkuhn Ah, ok. :)
23:46 subcontractor to me was meaning "some 3rd party (the contractor) between Conservancy and the person (subcontractor) doing the work "
23:46 icarito walterbender: +1 on a bid
23:46 bkuhn a competitive bid is a great thing to do! :)
23:46 OTOH, be careful with undercutting bids that seem "too low" :)
23:46 ajay has quit IRC
23:46 cjb sounds good!
23:46 icarito that can be a good strategy to put the funds to work
23:47 JT4sugar walterbender, I will get back with Christian to try and better identify the skill set we should have in in the write up for the bid process
23:47 walterbender let's plan to review the bid by email as soon as JT4sugar writes something up?
23:48 cjl sounds like a plan
23:48 walterbender JT4sugar: thanks for keeping on top of this
23:48 JT4sugar bkuhn, Would we plan to pay this by 1099-student would probably expect a weekly or bi-weekly check
23:49 cjb JT4sugar: why does it have to be a student?
23:49 let's not be presumptious about who will apply?
23:49 walterbender we should wrap up soon.
23:50 JT4sugar cjb, Doesn't necessarily I was thinking in terms of internship for marketing purposes but anyone that has skill set and can get this done is Great by me
23:50 cjb cool, ok.
23:50 walterbender #topic GSOC
23:50 I submitted an application today
23:50 dirakx is the backup admin
23:51 bkuhn JT4sugar: I can set it up as needed; a bi-weekly check is doable, although creates extra overhead for Conservancy.  Typically we pay contractors monthly, but I can be flexible on that if it'll make a difference to the student.
23:51 walterbender we have some project suggestions in the wiki, but could use some more
23:51 and more mentors to start listing
23:51 please help me solicit them
23:51 bkuhn Do you know who org-admin will be yet for SoC?
23:52 walterbender bkuhn: it is me
23:52 bkuhn ok
23:52 walterbender it has been a few years since I was the admin... the application is just the one page?
23:54 bkuhn: I mention the SFC relationship in the org. description
23:54 bkuhn thanks.
23:54 Someone was telling me today they ask for a W-9 up front now; if that's the case or you need anything else from me for app, let me know.
23:54 Usually, the Conservancy relationship isn't pertinent to Google until the end.
23:55 walterbender bkuhn: will do...
23:55 I have to say, the GSOC website is not very easy to navigate.
23:55 bkuhn Yeah, I know. :-/
23:56 walterbender well... anything else for today?
23:56 shall we try to meet in two weeks?
23:56 cjb sounds good
23:56 icarito yes sounds good
23:56 cjl ok
23:57 walterbender count down...
23:57 5
23:57 JT4sugar Thanks all!
23:58 walterbender 4
23:58 3
23:58 2
23:58 1
23:58 CU soon.
23:58 bkuhn Thanks all for your time on the Conservancy stuff.  I really appreciate it!  Later!
23:58 walterbender #end-meeting
23:58 meeting Meeting ended Tue Feb 28 23:58:37 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
23:58 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-28T22:30:53.html
23:58 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]12-02-28T22:30:53
23:58 bkuhn has quit IRC
23:59 cjl icarito kaametza Please try to rally Quechua and Aymara L10n efforts.
23:59 ajay <ajay!~ajay@> has joined #sugar-meeting

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