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#sugar-meeting, 2012-01-31

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15:02 erikos #startmeeting
15:02 meeting Meeting started Tue Jan 31 15:02:06 2012 UTC. The chair is erikos. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:02 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:02 erikos who is here for the dev team meeting?
15:02 looks around
15:02 manuq here
15:03 silbe waves
15:03 erikos hey silbe and manuq
15:03 m_anish here
15:03 erikos hey m_anish
15:03 callkalpa <callkalpa!~callkalpa@61.245.165.55> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:03 erikos gonzalo__: walterbender here as well?
15:04 #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]nuary/035508.html
15:04 today's items we want to discuss ^^^
15:04 gonzalo__ hello !
15:05 erikos hi gonzalo__
15:05 walterbender hello
15:05 erikos walterbender: hey!
15:05 great so let's start
15:06 gonzalo__ hello walterbender and silbe !
15:06 walterbender hi everyone.
15:06 erikos #topic === Gonzalo Odiard: Global Text to Speech ===
15:06 Status: this one is under review, I would say 90% done. There is agreement on the design and on the general implementation. The major
15:06 open questions are (feel free to comment if I am missing any or if you disagree about the ones noted):
15:06 - do we keep the shortcut Alt-Shift-s? [3]
15:06 - addition to the Palette API that is needed by the rework of the Palete
15:06 in GTK3 [4]
15:07 [3] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]nuary/035496.html
15:07 [4] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]nuary/035491.html
15:07 gonzalo__: so, just tested and reviewed your latest patch, looks good to me
15:07 silbe: any blockers for this one from your side?
15:07 gonzalo__ erikos, i have returned to alt-shift-s
15:07 manuq I'm testing it here too
15:08 erikos gonzalo__: yes, seen that
15:08 all good
15:08 gonzalo__ and remove the palette api issue need
15:08 erikos yes
15:09 silbe erikos: I'm not sure about it, v3 introduced major implementation changes vs. v2 (the addition of SugarMenuItem) and I haven't had time to take a closer look yet.
15:09 erikos gonzalo__: frommy side all is good
15:09 gonzalo__ silbe, yes v4 go back with the SugarMenuItem
15:09 i have a question
15:10 silbe asked about adding a voice selection, i agree but i don't know if the palette will be much loaded
15:10 erikos silbe: sure, gonzalo just pasted v4, so ok if you take a closer look
15:10 silbe: but do you see any major issue? or just maybe another nitpick here and there
15:11 and when can you have that look...
15:11 silbe In general, I'm not so happy after patches for Features getting posted so close to the deadline (that includes my version of the proxy settings patch). Even though I worked overtime, I didn't have enough time to review them in time.
15:12 erikos silbe: sure, I agree, that is why I pointed that out several times in my mails and announcements
15:12 walterbender would think the point of the deadline is to make sure that there is time on the other side for thorough review
15:13 erikos and that is something you have to say again and again
15:13 walterbender: no, the code has to land by today
15:13 walterbender: since we are doing tarballs
15:14 walterbender erikos: yes, but undoubtedly we will find problems... we aren't shipping today
15:14 erikos walterbender: but that is something different
15:15 walterbender erikos: I guess what I am saying is that we should build a review window into the schedule
15:15 erikos walterbender: yeah, I tried to make that with communication this time
15:15 walterbender: see for example here: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]nuary/035428.html
15:16 walterbender: but we can make that implicit as well in the schedule
15:16 if you see our schedule: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.96/Roadmap
15:16 walterbender erikos: I think it needs to be explicit.
15:17 but we should move on to the topic of the meeting
15:17 silbe walterbender: yes, maybe we do need to make that more explicit by adding a "Feature patches submission deadline" or something like that. But it's hard to set a fixed deadline for that, as a patch usually needs to go through several rounds of review before its ready for inclusion.
15:18 erikos we have one month before UI freeze, so there is a chance to make UI changes as well to features
15:18 silbe walterbender: well, it actually is on topic as we need to decide what to do about the delayed Features.
15:18 erikos if we find issues
15:18 but the major part should be ready
15:19 ok, about that Feature in particular:
15:19 - it had patches for several weeks
15:19 - it went through different iterations of review and testing
15:19 - we adjusted accordingly to that feedback
15:19 - and we agree on the implementation
15:20 I gave my OK already
15:20 silbe: so maybe it is fine if you have a quick look later at the latest patch and say if it is ok to push or not
15:21 silbe: it is not so controversial, I think
15:21 silbe I'm not too happy with it, but like the proxy CP it's pretty self-contained. If it causes trouble, deployments and users can simply remove it (though we should make that easier).
15:22 erikos silbe: what exactly are you not so happy with?
15:22 silbe erikos: see my reviews. I can't say anything about the v4 patch, of course, as I haven't seen it yet.
15:23 erikos silbe: but were there any major blockers?
15:23 gonzalo__ silbe, i modified a lot of things based in your reviews
15:24 silbe, is difficult make you happy :)
15:24 walterbender as it should be :P
15:24 m_anish :)
15:25 gonzalo__ may be i can send you a puppy :)
15:26 erikos wonders if that culd be considered corruption
15:26 silbe I just took a look at v4 of the patch (https://patchwork.sugarlabs.org/patch/1144/). It's not perfect (several of my previous concerns like mentioning new dependencies and monitoring gconf are still unaddressed), but nothing that isn't fixable.
15:27 erikos silbe: thanks for taking a look
15:27 silbe gonzalo__: good software design and development is hard.
15:27 gonzalo__ silbe, ok, lets continue then
15:28 erikos silbe: gonzalo__ so sounds like you guys can figure that out
15:28 I am doing tarballs tomorrow, do you think you can make it?
15:28 silbe gonzalo__: in my experience if you're sloppy at the beginning, issues will come back to bite you twice as bad.
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15:29 gonzalo__ erikos, yeah one concern is a comment in the patch, the another is not implemented yet in any other configuration. anyway i can do it
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15:29 erikos gonzalo__: great
15:30 silbe: ok from your side?
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15:30 silbe erikos: probably not until tomorrow, but we can at least try.
15:31 erikos silbe: ok, good
15:31 next one
15:31 #topic === Walter Bender: Write to Journal anytime ===
15:31 Status: there have been many ideas floating around, we have one concrete implementation from Walter that adds a Palette to the Activity sub-toolbar [5]. The patch is under review, the following items are
15:31 currently open with this approach (feel free to comment if I am missing any or if you disagree about the ones noted):
15:31 - what icon do we use for the Palette?
15:31 - do we remove the NamingAlert now (the question here is, does the new
15:32 functionality besides easing the note taking inside the activity fulfill
15:32 the 'reminder' functionality if no notes have been taking and/or no
15:32 title has been set that were provided by the NamingAlert?)
15:32 - is there still enough room for the export icons in the activity
15:32 sub-toolbar?
15:32 [5] http://dev.laptop.org/~erikos/[…]eflections-ta.png
15:32 listens
15:33 dsd_: late-comers get to pay the ice-cream today
15:33 walterbender erikos: Since we remove Keep, it should not be a problem (today)
15:33 but there is a new can of worms we are opening with XO 3.0
15:34 I made some changes to TA, for example, to detect whether or not the buttons all fit, and if not, use a palette.
15:34 not ideal and not something an activity developer should have to worry about (me thinks(
15:34 raises some issues for the design team in 0.98
15:34 Cerlyn_ is now known as Cerlyn
15:35 walterbender but this patch should be OK
15:35 erikos walterbender: ok, that would be about the "room for the export icons in the activity sub-toolbar"
15:35 m_anish erikos, walterbender just curious, are there other instances inside sugar where one is entering text in a text entry inside a palette of a 'popped-up' toolbar?
15:35 silbe walterbender: we can and probably will improve on this Feature in 0.98. To me it's more of a field experiment, but we can land it because it's better than what we had before.
15:35 erikos m_anish: no, there aren't
15:36 manuq silbe: +1
15:36 walterbender silbe: sure... although I have already been doing some field testing... more is needed
15:36 but I think we should get rid of the hated Naming Alert now in conjunction with this patch
15:36 m_anish erikos, hmm at first it seemed a bit hackish to me to do it this way, but I can't think of an alternate solution myself.
15:37 walterbender, erikos, did gary have some ideas on this?
15:37 erikos m_anish: yeah, I gave it all some thinking (see my mails on the topic) but I think it is the best we can do for now
15:37 walterbender it terms of code, all of this is a minor intervention
15:37 erikos m_anish: this Feature has a long history (should be available on the Feature page)
15:38 walterbender: about removing the NA, I am not 100% convinced
15:38 silbe m_anish: +1. All mail clients^W^W designs suck, this one just sucks less.
15:38 erikos walterbender: the palette does not address parts of what the NM is for
15:38 walterbender erikos: what is its value add at this point? (1) tags, (2) star, and (3) in your face
15:39 title and description are already available and your F5 patch makes it easy to get to the detail view
15:39 m_anish erikos, yep, seen that, the one proposed is the best from the ones on that page IMO, but I guess this will be modified in the future, perhaps when someone does something with tags
15:39 erikos the NM makes sure that you name your sessions (in an your face style agreed) but it does make sure
15:40 walterbender: I don't say the NM is a glorious thing in itself, but it has some functionality
15:40 walterbender erikos: maybe that is the intent... little evidence that it is effective (except in deployments run by Simon)
15:40 gonzalo__ erikos, the NM is hated and ignored in most cases
15:41 walterbender erikos: if we did keep it, it should be scaled back to just a naming alert, not a detail view alert
15:41 silbe erikos: there's still the option of switching to the details view automatically after closing an activity...
15:41 walterbender and only invoked if the name wasn't changed
15:41 erikos silbe: yeah, that option came up at one point as well
15:42 walterbender silbe: I think that would confuse our users
15:42 erikos walterbender: the 'only invoked if the name wasn't changed' is done like that atm as well
15:42 walterbender: and that was one argument
15:42 walterbender erikos: I guess I hadn't noticed, since I always ignore it :P
15:43 erikos so, my main point is: in general the naming/set description field is pretty much hidden
15:44 and if we remove the NM we should think in the next cycle what we could do about it
15:44 silbe walterbender: I'm still not convinced about the confusion, but I won't press my point. Only a large-scale experiment would really show.
15:44 erikos to achieve with something else, what the NM tried to achieve
15:44 walterbender slbe: agreed.
15:44 erikos s/NM/NA
15:44 gonzalo__ question, what you think if the activity icon in the toolbar is white if the user has not changed title/description and take the user color if has chnaged?
15:44 walterbender erikos: many (not all) activities have the Activity toolbar open by default
15:45 m_anish walterbender, silbe erikos , just another thought, most people would just click the 'keep' button as before, does that action popup the palette? If it doesn't users might not even notice the text-entry!
15:45 walterbender gonzalo__: interesting idea...
15:45 erikos walterbender: many? maybe the ones you write...:)
15:45 m_anish s/palette/secondary palette/
15:46 gonzalo__ walterbender, the activity toolbar open by default?
15:46 erikos gonzalo__: interesting in the first place, but not sure messing with the colors paradigm is a good thing
15:46 silbe erikos: At Sugar Camp, Gary pointed out that no matter what we do, most users will probably rarely name / tag / whatever their entries and we should try to do as much of it automatically. I have to admit he's got a point. We should make the "manual" entering of metadata convenient, but not try to make the user do it if they don't want.
15:46 walterbender erikos: I guess I misspoke, but it is an easy change to make
15:47 erikos silbe: yeah, there is definitely some truth to that
15:47 m_anish: yeah, that was my concern
15:48 gonzalo__ walterbender, is a good point if is implemented in the activity class  code and not in every activity
15:48 walterbender gonzalo__: probably doable
15:48 silbe gonzalo__: that would be misleading. The activity is already the users, no matter whether they have explicitly given it a name.
15:49 m_anish erikos, ok
15:49 manuq gonzalo__, walterbender, but if the child stops the activity, what color the journal entry will have?
15:49 erikos ok, let's streamline the discussion:
15:49 I guess people agree to remove the NA, correct?
15:50 m_anish +1
15:50 silbe +1 to removing the NA, no matter what
15:50 manuq +1
15:50 gonzalo__ manuq, the same like today, i am  thinking only in a way to show the fields where filled
15:51 +1 to remove NA
15:51 walterbender +1
15:52 erikos what about the icon?
15:52 http://dev.laptop.org/~erikos/[…]eflections-ta.png ?
15:52 walterbender that is the wrong icon
15:52 gonzalo__ there are one similar but with a pencil....
15:53 erikos walterbender: do you have a screenshot?
15:53 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]o_journal_anytime
15:53 I guess the one in the cookie monster screenshot
15:53 walterbender http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]nal_Text_View.png
15:54 gonzalo__ yes....
15:54 m_anish +1 to icon walterbender 's last link
15:54 erikos it looks a bit different in style to the otehr sugar icons
15:55 but that can be adjusted if desired
15:55 m_anish walterbender, another idea about displaying whether some reflection has been entered... Maybe inside the journal icon 'booklet', you could display 2-3 horizontal lines to indicate some entry has been made?
15:55 erikos and about renaming 'description' to 'reflection'?
15:56 silbe no objections from my side on the icon in http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]nal_Text_View.png
15:56 walterbender erikos: that is perhaps a bit controversial
15:57 erikos: the learning team seems to favor it, but I don't think I ever got signoff from the design team
15:57 m_anish erikos, hmm, don't know what the translations for 'reflections' would mean in different langs
15:58 erikos walterbender: maybe we can leave it out for the merge and you ask the design team with the info you have?
15:58 walterbender: we have one more month for the string change
15:58 walterbender leave it out? or use description?
15:58 silbe m_anish: for 0.98 has ambitious plans on showing more metadata in the Journal list view that go along the same line. I'm staying tuned for patches. ;)
15:58 erikos walterbender: use description for now
15:58 silbe m_anish: *walterbender has ambitious plans
15:58 walterbender erikos: OK. I'll try to confirm with both teams
15:59 m_anish silbe, :) awesome!
15:59 walterbender m_anish: nothing a good #TRANS note wouldn't be able to address :P
15:59 m_anish walterbender, heh
16:00 erikos great, I think we sorted that one
16:00 I will finally review and merge for tomorrow
16:01 next one:
16:02 #topic: === Sascha Silbe, Anish Mangal, Aleksey Lim: Proxy configuration ===
16:02 Status: we currently have a patch that adds a new Proxy section [6][7] which mimics the GNOME2 section. Several people have argued that it should be better added to the Network section instead of having a
16:02 separate Proxy section (e.g. [8]). Mockups [9][10][11] and a proof-of-concept patch [12] have been posted that do mimic the GNOME3
16:02 proxy setting and include it in the Network section. The following main question is currently open for this feature (feel free to comment if I am missing any or if you disagree about the ones noted):
16:02 - which path should we take now, add a separate Proxy section or include it in the existing Network section? (if that decision is taken we can sort out the rest)
16:02 [6] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]uration#UI_Design
16:02 [7] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]nuary/035445.html
16:02 [8] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]nuary/035483.html
16:02 [9] http://dev.laptop.org/~erikos/[…]ew_proxy_none.png
16:03 [10] http://dev.laptop.org/~erikos/[…]_proxy_manual.png
16:03 [11] http://dev.laptop.org/~erikos/[…]oxy_automatic.png
16:03 [12] http://dev.laptop.org/~erikos/[…]roxy_layout.patch
16:03 listens
16:03 silbe listens as well ;)
16:04 m_anish too (I'm fine either way, I never liked the proxy icon I created anyway)
16:04 erikos of course if you see my recent mails on that topic, I am all for moving it in the network section
16:05 I even did a proof-of-concept patch
16:05 so basically it would need finishing and merging with the model from the other patch
16:05 walterbender +1 to moving it to the network section (at the bottom)
16:05 manuq I tested erikos patch, proxy options seems to fit very well in the network section
16:07 gonzalo__ what silbe and m_anish think about this?
16:07 is wondering if is disconnected :)
16:07 m_anish gonzalo__, I don't feel strongly about it either way ;)
16:07 silbe ok, looks like the way forward is moving it into the network CP.
16:08 gonzalo__ great, how we follow now?
16:08 erikos ok, so the following we could do schedule wise:
16:09 - we land it with an exception
16:09 manuq here I am
16:09 erikos let's say we give it another week to fully be merged?
16:09 silbe the main issues are a) who does the work and b) if it doesn't get submitted and reviewed in time, will there be a freeze exception for it or do we land it in 0.97 (i.e. in master after branching off sucrose-0.96)?
16:09 erikos does that sound reasonable?
16:10 gonzalo__ m_anish, can you integrate the ui proposal from erikos?
16:10 silbe gonzalo__: the problem with IRC is that you don't notice someone's typing...
16:10 gonzalo__ silbe, ahhh :)
16:10 erikos silbe: yeah, these are the right questions :)
16:11 in general would be great to land it in 0.96, now that we invested quite a few people's time already
16:11 and we have most of the patch done
16:11 we just need a taker to finish it up
16:11 m_anish gonzalo__, not sure i'll find time in this week :/, I thought erikos has already worked on it
16:12 erikos m_anish: for me was a proof-of-concept because I wanted to make sure the other part does not land
16:12 m_anish erikos, ok
16:13 erikos, what is remaining (other than merging in network cp)?
16:13 silbe, ^
16:13 silbe erikos: to me, 0.96 vs. 0.98 is independent of how much work we put in it. Like discussed at Sugar Camp Paris, we should branch off early and land anything that is ready in master. But I'm not averse to landing the proxy CP in 0.96, for similar reasons as the speech Frame device icon.
16:15 erikos silbe: m_anish: mainly up to you guys
16:15 you can think about it...
16:16 but not too long :)
16:16 ok, nothing more on my list
16:16 silbe m_anish: while there's a lot I'd like to be changed "under the hood", it's in a reasonable shape for now, so only the UI changes would need to be done
16:16 erikos anything else someone wants to bring up?
16:16 m_anish silbe, ok
16:17 erikos, how soon can I start proposing features for 0.98 :) ?
16:18 erikos m_anish: you can propose Features anytime
16:18 starts the count down
16:18 silbe m_anish: any time really. But it can happen that nobody will look at them for some time. If you need assistance or a decision, be prepared to remind people several times.
16:19 erikos silbe: well put
16:19 m_anish silbe, erikos okay thx!
16:19 erikos 5
16:19 silbe 4
16:19 erikos hopes we still have enough awake people
16:19 gonzalo__ then?
16:19 there are a decison about the feature?
16:20 erikos gonzalo__: does not look like the submitter is in a hurry to land it ;p
16:21 gonzalo__ ok :(
16:21 silbe gonzalo__: AIUI one of the patch authors (Aleksey, Anish or me) will rework the patch to move it to the network CP, and there will be a freeze exception in case we don't get it reworked and reviewed today.
16:21 manuq 3!
16:22 gonzalo__ silbe, but if you were interested in land the feature can request a exception
16:22 erikos silbe: I think gonzalo__ asks for what your plans are
16:22 m_anish silbe, +1
16:23 gonzalo__ excuse me if i am rude, bt i don't understand really
16:23 silbe erikos: I'm over being in a hurry w.r.t. Sugar patches. :-P And in this case, it's a) a Feature and b) pretty self-contained, so no need to rush it.
16:24 gonzalo__: I understood erikos' statement earlier to mean that he will grant an exception, so I did not request it explicitly.
16:25 erikos silbe: ok
16:25 silbe so, to make it explicit: I'm requesting a Freeze exception for the proxy CP Feature.
16:25 erikos silbe: yeah, there is the exception possibility
16:26 silbe: has to be done by mail anyhow :)
16:26 silbe erikos: :-P
16:26 gonzalo__ erikos.....
16:26 erikos silbe: but you can do once the patch is ready
16:26 gonzalo__ who willl work in the feature?
16:27 m_anish gonzalo__, me, or alsroot or silbe
16:27 silbe gonzalo__: "one of the patch authors (Aleksey, Anish or me) will rework the patch"
16:27 m_anish :)
16:27 erikos http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]se#Feature_freeze
16:27 for reference ^
16:27 gonzalo__ ok, do you know how much time do you need?
16:28 m_anish gonzalo__, to just merge into the n/w CP, within this week
16:29 gonzalo__ great! then +1 got the exception :)
16:29 erikos ok, let's get somw work done!
16:29 thaks for participating
16:29 gonzalo__ is hungry
16:29 erikos gonzalo__: m_anish can youguys finish the countdown?
16:30 m_anish 2
16:30 gonzalo__ 1!
16:30 erikos #enmeeting
16:30 m_anish yayy :)
16:30 erikos #endmeeting
16:30 meeting Meeting ended Tue Jan 31 16:30:16 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:30 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-31T15:02:06.html
16:30 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]12-01-31T15:02:06
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