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#sugar-meeting, 2012-01-10

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15:01 erikos #startmeeting
15:01 meeting Meeting started Tue Jan 10 15:01:06 2012 UTC. The chair is erikos. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:01 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:01 erikos roll call please!
15:01 silbe is there
15:01 erikos who is here for the developer meeting?
15:01 benzea is there
15:01 erikos hey silbe and benzea!
15:02 silbe happy new year everyone :)
15:02 erikos happy new year to you as well!
15:02 silbe erikos: thx!
15:02 benzea happy new year :-)
15:03 erikos let's wait two more mins for the late comers...
15:04 garycmartin <garycmartin!~garycmart@host-92-26-189-38.as13285.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:05 erikos hey garycmartin
15:06 ok - let's start
15:06 garycmartin erikos: hi! Here to lurk in the meeting.
15:06 erikos #topic status of the GTK3 port
15:06 garycmartin: just in time ;p
15:07 so we advanced a lot in Browse last week!
15:07 Manuel and myself did around of pair programming
15:07 (has to update patchwork which is not anymore up-to-date regards browse patches)
15:08 there is a page that tracks the current status:
15:08 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ebKit/Development
15:09 so, I think we can make it with an acceptable version in time
15:09 silbe erikos: I guess we can mark old Browse patches (like export-to-PDF and SSO support) as Rejected now? They won't be applicable to the new code base.
15:10 erikos silbe: yeah, if they depend on mozplugger or such, yes
15:11 ok, the next item with changes is the theme
15:11 silbe erikos: no, but they seem to be pretty Mozilla specific AFAICT (not having worked with WebKit so far).
15:11 erikos silbe: yeah, the mozilla specific one I mean
15:11 benzea kindly reviewed the patch
15:12 I will do the clean up and push
15:12 once that is in we can do more iterations
15:12 more cleanup etc
15:12 benzea not that I am too hapy with it really :-)
15:12 but yeah, please push
15:13 erikos benzea: ok, what are the main issues?
15:13 happy to fix stuff up before of course
15:13 that is why we send it for review :P
15:13 benzea oh, that it is just copied from the gtk+ 2 theme, and I have no idea what is still correct and what is not ...
15:13 some parts are copies, that is
15:15 erikos benzea: ok, any suggestion how we can proceed?
15:15 benzea: should we meet up for a test/remove old stuff/whatever session?
15:16 or do you want to have a look at it async
15:16 or...
15:16 benzea erikos: well, I would suggest pushing it as is, to have something in for now
15:16 it seems to be working acceptable
15:17 erikos and then cleanup more
15:17 is fine with me as well
15:18 benzea unfortunately I have no idea how much work it is
15:18 erikos to do what exactly?
15:19 benzea well, I would want to figure out what has changed in GTK+ 3 (especially with regard to padding)
15:19 erikos the basic approach we took is ok, isn't it?
15:19 ok
15:19 benzea and then see what needs to be changed, or what can be done in a better waythese days
15:19 sure
15:20 walterbender <walterbender!~chatzilla@146-115-134-246.c3-0.nwt-ubr​1.sbo-nwt.ma.cable.rcn.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:20 walterbender sorry I am late
15:20 benzea I am just wondering about all the style property values; I am not even sure all of those style properties still exist :-)
15:21 erikos like 'border-style: solid;' ?
15:21 hey walterbender
15:21 silbe walterbender: Happy new year! The backlog is at http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]etings/2012-01-10
15:22 erikos benzea: so our approach was that we only left the stuff we need
15:22 benzea erikos: like -GtkWidget-wide-separators
15:22 erikos benzea: there shouldn't be too many unused stuff anymore
15:23 benzea: ok, those we did not touch indeed
15:23 I can have a look
15:23 benzea erikos: though if you have removed some of the stuff, that is probably already much better than what I had at the beginning :-)
15:23 erikos benzea: yeah ;p
15:24 benzea *much* better ;-)
15:25 erikos ok, let's do it that way
15:26 I will iterate and let you know ;p
15:26 benzea fine with me :-)
15:26 erikos next item, anything else on the GTK3 end?
15:27 walterbender has a few more activities to "de-hippo" :P
15:27 erikos #action erikos look at potentially unused style propoerties in the theme like GtkWidget-wide-separators
15:27 walterbender: keep them coming ;p
15:28 ok, let's move to 0.96 then
15:28 #topic current status of the development cycle
15:28 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.96/Roadmap Feature Freeze is appraoching
15:29 I did give feedback to Gonzalo yesterday about his 'global text to speech' feature
15:29 will send a summary to the list
15:29 #action erikos send 'global tts' feedback to list
15:29 and we had some chat about the famous "Write to Journal anytime" feature over the last days
15:30 walterbender I did a first-pass implementation yesterday afternoon
15:30 erikos maybe we can talk some more about that?
15:30 walterbender yes, please
15:30 erikos walterbender: which approach did you take?
15:30 walterbender I ended up using a palette
15:30 erikos and what did you save as metadata
15:31 walterbender: similar to my mockup?
15:31 walterbender I just increment writes to the 'description' field
15:31 erikos like in bullet points?
15:31 walterbender erikos: very similar, but a text entry
15:32 erikos: like bullet points
15:32 didn't add a timestamp yet
15:32 gonzalo hello
15:32 erikos and there is a submit button?
15:32 walterbender yes
15:32 erikos in the palette, ok
15:32 walterbender and it clears the entry after each submit
15:32 erikos but you don't see the items from before, right?
15:32 ok
15:32 hi gonzalo!
15:32 walterbender no... you need to go to the journal to see/edit the items
15:33 silbe walterbender: I'm not convinced that the description field is a good place for notes taken while working on the entry, but that's a topic for a Design Team meeting (or mail thread).
15:33 walterbender this is really just for adding notes while you are working
15:33 gonzalo erikos, reading the log :(
15:33 walterbender silbe: I think description should be renamed to Notes or Reflections
15:34 silbe: the Description field today is almost unused in practice
15:34 silbe walterbender: (still better than nothing and if people don't get too used to it, we might fix it up once version support is there)
15:34 garycmartin walterbender: so you can't edit or read the existing description?
15:34 walterbender garycmartin: not from the activity, just from the Journal, as before
15:34 erikos walterbender: I have been thinking about the toolbar/palette
15:34 http://dev.laptop.org/~erikos/[…]oolbar_browse.png
15:35 garycmartin :(
15:35 erikos I was wondering if we should expand the toolbar for the activity to half the screen size
15:35 walterbender garycmartin: what is the use case?
15:35 garycmartin: all the evidence suggests that there is none
15:35 erikos we keep the context, but have enough space for displaying the 'add new note' field and the old notes as well
15:35 silbe walterbender: I wouldn't mind an additional field and even hiding the description field by default, but I actually use the field for multi-line descriptions so naturally I'd be opposed to removing or renaming it. :) (but again, something to discuss at another time; I'll shut up now)
15:36 walterbender erikos: I don't mind making an additional field, Notes, and leaving descriptions as they are...
15:36 easy enough to do
15:37 garycmartin walterbender: if your notes vanish from the UI after a submit, and then you have to go hunt down a different UI to edit or make a corrections...
15:37 walterbender but I really think that the activity is not the place to spend a lot of time editing desctiptions
15:37 gonzalo walterbender, i also think would be good look at your old notes.....
15:38 if you want promote reflexion, would be good have your previous notes
15:38 erikos yes, I think old notes are as well as important as the context in the activity
15:38 walterbender I don't feel strongly about it... but I want to keep the interface as simple as possible
15:38 I will change the patch to be the entire entry, editiable
15:38 gonzalo and we can do it with a simple two rows entry
15:39 erikos garycmartin: do you think having a half size toolbar for the activity like in  http://dev.laptop.org/~erikos/[…]oolbar_browse.png would be something horrible?
15:39 garycmartin: that way we would have enough space at least ;p
15:39 walterbender not horrible, just annoying
15:39 garycmartin erikos: it would be pretty non standard.
15:39 silbe Is there anything from the coding side that we should talk about w.r.t. Write to Journal anytime? If you like, we can do a spontaneous Design Team meeting (we'd only be missing Christian I think) after we finish up the Dev Team meeting.
15:39 walterbender it would take up too much of the canvas
15:40 garycmartin I take it this is all to avoid the original unified details view dialogue designs?
15:40 walterbender silbe: I did have some questions re coding
15:40 erikos garycmartin: yes
15:40 walterbender the way I implemented it, I made it so that the activity could add extra elements to the palette... not sure if that is necessary
15:40 erikos walterbender: if you have a big palette up with the description it takes up as well a lot of space
15:41 walterbender erikos: part of my rationale for just a single line
15:41 erikos walterbender: and i think it will be more akward to use
15:41 gonzalo erikos, i like it, and have space to add tags in the future
15:41 garycmartin erikos: because it was too much work, or a new argument against that work?
15:41 erikos gonzalo: that is what I thought, yes
15:41 silbe walterbender: that makes sense to me; it's probably a good place for export buttons to live.
15:42 erikos garycmartin: a new argument against that work
15:42 the modal dialog is not seen as desirable
15:42 walterbender silbe: then I should expose the label to be overwritten as well
15:42 gonzalo please keep the export buttons where there are.... :(
15:42 silbe walterbender: which label?
15:42 erikos gonzalo: hehe
15:42 walterbender there is a label on the palette
15:43 silbe: see http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/imag[…]urnal_Palette.png
15:43 gonzalo walterbender, the title?
15:43 walterbender, that is waste of space...
15:44 silbe walterbender: ah, sorry, I probably got confused by the different mock-ups. With that particular design, I don't think you need to make it easily extensible.
15:44 walterbender silbe: OK...
15:44 silbe walterbender: I was worried about the Activity Toolbar (the one that contains your toolbutton) not being extensible anymore, and that would be a real loss IMO.
15:44 walterbender gonzalo: if there is a way to eliminate the tooltip from the palette, I haven't discovered it yet
15:45 silbe (and the Activity Toolbar is exactly the place where the export buttons live, at least in some activities)
15:45 walterbender silbe: what I really envisioned was a second row to the toolbar... but couldn't think of a clean implementation
15:45 gonzalo maybe the half screen palette from erikos can be done with a litle less space
15:45 walterbender silbe: yes
15:46 erikos gonzalo: you mean a 1/3 of the screen or similar?
15:46 gonzalo yes
15:46 walterbender here is a compromise proposal:
15:46 (1) I figure out how to remove the space wasted by the tool tip
15:46 erikos gonzalo: sure, I just think it will be more easy to use than having a palette in the toolbar
15:47 walterbender (2) I make my test entry expanded to two lines and put the old content in a scroll view
15:47 gonzalo erikos, but works as a alert or as a subpalette?
15:47 walterbender (3) I make it such that other things can be added
15:47 erikos gonzalo: no, is the subpalette
15:48 gonzalo: so one click on the activity icon and you have it like the old toolbar just bigger
15:48 walterbender but (4) I don't add provision for tags, etc. n this iteration
15:48 silbe walterbender: I've fought against GTK recently as well to implement a multi-line toolbar to show all scanner settings in the Scan activity (currently they get simply dropped off, not even an overflow menu appears), but GTK won hands-down. :-/
15:48 walterbender silbe: I think I could do it, but it would mean touching virtually all of toolkit graphics... too invasive and ugly
15:49 erikos: how do you make a palette full screen width?
15:49 erikos: how do you make a palette not show a tooltip?
15:50 gonzalo walterbender, why not add the description widget to our actual activity subtoolbar as eirkos said?
15:50 erikos walterbender: the width is determined by the content
15:50 walterbender gonzalo: I don't know what an activity subtoolbar is
15:51 gonzalo walterbender, the suibtoolbar displayed by the activity button
15:51 walterbender erikos: yes... but no way to override? it would look better visually if it was full screen
15:51 erikos walterbender: the tooltip I don't think you can remove by API
15:51 walterbender gonzalo: that toolbar is too full
15:51 erikos: OK...
15:52 gonzalo walterbender, adding more vertical space
15:52 walterbender gonzalo: how?
15:52 gonzalo the first row should be as today is, the title and the export buttons
15:53 walterbender, would be a special subtoolbar
15:53 walterbender gonzalo: I couldn't figure out how to add a second row... what silbe and I were just discussing
15:53 erikos walterbender: you would have to code that special subtoolbar in the toolkit first
15:53 gonzalo yes
15:54 walterbender erikos: and I was looking at that... it looks like it would be very messy
15:55 garycmartin Hmmm. All this to avoid a modal dialogue we already have a design for. Can we not just base it on invoking the existing naming dialogue on demand?
15:55 gonzalo walterbender, that is because there are palettes involved :)
15:55 walterbender why not take advantage of the current toolkit as is? and just add a palette? less invasive and not too much different
15:55 silbe walterbender: for a fixed size, you could call toolbar_button.page_widget.set_size_request(-1, num_lines*style.GRID_CELL_SIZE). Ugly, but it works. The thing I didn't get to work was determining how much space my toolbar needs...
15:55 gonzalo walterbender, take much space and is not extensible
15:55 erikos walterbender: even so I mocked that up, I don't like too much havinf a palette in a subtoolbar you then add text
15:56 walterbender erikos: why? what didn't you like?
15:56 erikos garycmartin: yeah, I still don't find the modal alert a too bad solution
15:56 walterbender guys, you are really really missing the point re the user experience
15:57 erikos walterbender: because you have to click on the activity icon first, then on get to the palette and then you can type your text in, if you move the mouse the palette will go away
15:59 gonzalo erikos, this can be solved if we use a alert
15:59 walterbender gonzalo: that was my first implementation
15:59 erikos gonzalo: the last part you mean
15:59 silbe erikos: good point. Moving it to the Activity Toolbar, as a second line, would seem like a better idea then.
15:59 erikos gonzalo: but it is still two clicks away
15:59 gonzalo: you could go to the Journal in the meantime ;p
15:59 gonzalo erikos, yes
16:00 walterbender erikos: yes... and completely lose context
16:00 silbe gonzalo: How would you invoke the Alert? You can't just show it always as it'd take up precious space.
16:00 erikos walterbender: I was kidding ;p
16:00 walterbender we know from experience that (1) people don't go to the journal and (2) people don't use the model dialog
16:01 erikos walterbender: (2) is not true from my experience
16:01 walterbender erikos: it is true in virtually every Sugar deployment...
16:01 silbe erikos: it's at least true for some major deployments; they even patched it out :-P
16:02 erikos walterbender: maybe german kids are different
16:02 walterbender I don't know that they would use this new mechanism either...
16:02 maybe their mentor was different
16:02 erikos did the mentorship ;p
16:02 anyhow
16:02 garycmartin walterbender: I'd argue that the modal 2) is not used so much as it appears at the absolute wrong time, when a user is trying to escape an activity and go do something else. Being able to invoke it on demand when YOU want to make a note or add a tag would make a big difference.
16:03 erikos garycmartin: good point
16:03 silbe walterbender: maybe they wouldn't, but at least the new functionality will be available for everyone to use at their own choice of if and when to use it, not forced upon them after closing an activity (possibly because you're running out of battery or need to catch the bus).
16:03 walterbender garycmartin: and because it obscures the screen and because you cannot access your activity while it is open
16:03 erikos garycmartin: I think the only downside of the modal alert is that you can not look at the activity content at the same time
16:03 garycmartin: but maybe that is 'ok'
16:04 walterbender that is not 'ok'
16:05 gonzalo walterbender, may be is no so bad. actually you can't go back from the leaving alert, because the activity exit
16:05 walterbender and because is shows you a bunch of stuff you cannot edit...
16:05 silbe erikos: I just tried it: You can't move the window and almost all of the screen is obscured. The toolbar / palette ideas are much better in that respect.
16:05 garycmartin erikos: I agree it is not ideal most of the activity canvas is covered, but there is only so much screen space available. As long as it is quick to show and dismiss it can be toggled on/off as you look back at your work.
16:05 m_anish also tuned into write-to-journal discussion ;-)
16:06 erikos garycmartin: yeah, it is not ideal indeed, but the alert has other advantages
16:06 walterbender maybe I am having trouble disassociating all the baggage from the naming alert to think objectively
16:06 erikos I think the solution that mixes all good points is: http://dev.laptop.org/~erikos/[…]oolbar_browse.png
16:06 think about it :)
16:07 - one click to invoke
16:07 - still having context (could be only 1/3 of teh screen as well)
16:07 silbe erikos: I don't think it's an either-or between the dialog and the note taking facility. Both have their use, and for replacing the Naming Alert the notes taking is more important IMO.
16:07 walterbender erikos: so what you did was replace the acitivity toolbar with a big palette?
16:07 silbe but we have drifted back from implementation to design; we should continue with the Dev Team meeting.
16:08 gonzalo trying to think different.... what about a modal dialog, but using 1/3 of the screen at the top?
16:08 erikos walterbender: the activity toolbar would just be bigger
16:08 walterbender erikos: I will ask again, how do you make the activity toolbar bigger? seems like a major intervention
16:08 erikos gonzalo: i think that only works if you grey out the rest or similar
16:09 gonzalo erikos, should be confusing?
16:09 erikos gonzalo: yeah, otherwise it might be confusing what you can click on or not
16:10 garycmartin erikos: some activities will not like their canvases shrunk that much (will do strange resealing or just overflow).
16:10 resealing -> reflowing
16:10 erikos walterbender: this is a mockup, I did not look at the code
16:10 silbe erikos: except for looking ugly (GTK3 based perhaps?) I think it's a reasonable start.
16:10 walterbender erikos: I did look at the code and I think it would be very very messy
16:11 erikos: but maybe I missed something obvious
16:11 erikos silbe: no - just a mockup copy/paste in gimp
16:11 walterbender erikos: for example, where do activity-supplied buttons go?
16:11 erikos garycmartin: I think the toolbar shifts it down
16:12 garycmartin: ahh, maybe only on locked toolbar...
16:12 walterbender thinks we could try something that is minimally invasive and get some feedback
16:12 silbe erikos: yes, that's exactly the difference locking a toolbar makes. :)
16:13 erikos so locked toolbar shifts the canvas down, on-hover toolbar does go over it, hmm
16:14 silbe: yeah ;p
16:16 walterbender we are far from consensus... but let me propose the following
16:16 erikos walterbender: yeah, we are far it seems
16:16 garycmartin erikos: depends on how the activity is layed out re shift vs rescale (calculate will squish all it's buttons)
16:17 walterbender (1) I will investigate again the details of an extended (vertically) toolbar
16:17 and (2) I will look at some changes suggested ^^ re the contents of the palette or toolbar
16:17 and report back
16:17 erikos garycmartin: oh, I see what you mean, now
16:18 garycmartin: like walter said the activity buttons like export, would be a problem indeed
16:18 gonzalo erikos, can't be in the first row as the title entry?
16:19 walterbender maybe we should have a standard export palette activities can add...
16:19 would save some space
16:19 erikos gonzalo: and then a box below, maybe
16:19 walterbender and then we could have future palettes for tags, etc.
16:19 erikos standard toolbar, you mean?
16:20 subtoolbar
16:20 like edit or view
16:20 walterbender and in a second go-around, think about reimplementing it as a subtoolbar that expands
16:20 gonzalo erikos, may be the activity subtoolbar can have the default size, and if the take notes button is pressed, expand to show the other widgets?
16:21 walterbender gonzalo: that is no different than a palette, really... except it doesn't autoclose
16:21 erikos gonzalo: whee would be the 'take notes' button?
16:21 gonzalo: in the actiivty subtoolbar?
16:21 gonzalo erikos, yes
16:21 walterbender, but will use better the space
16:21 erikos the thing is that it is as well, two clicks
16:22 gonzalo: better space usage yes
16:22 gonzalo erikos, two clicks is no so bad
16:22 walterbender erikos: same number of clicks in gonzalo's scheme
16:22 erikos walterbender: that is what I meant
16:23 gonzalo erikos, two clicks, but you can see the screen (walter priority) and does not use so much space if you don't want take notes
16:23 erikos ok, maybe we can keep on that one async
16:23 gonzalo: yeah, it is better, I agree
16:24 walterbender and it is only 1 click if the toolbar is already open
16:24 gonzalo yes
16:24 erikos i think still best and most discoverable would be one click if possible
16:25 walterbender yeah... but it may not be achievable in the short term
16:25 erikos already the kids need to discover that there is something under the activity icon
16:25 gonzalo erikos, but if is consistent, the discover is only one time....
16:25 erikos I can imagine with the move of the title entry from the main toolbar to the subtoolbar we lost already kids naming their activities
16:26 silbe walterbender, gonzalo: can you do some mock-ups and upload them to the wiki, so we can continue the discussion on sugar-devel?
16:26 erikos oh well, with tabs it wasn;t as obvious before neither...
16:26 gonzalo erikos, ok
16:26 walterbender silbe: +1
16:27 will add the to current collection
16:27 erikos yeah, let's keep on flashing out on the devel list
16:27 gonzalo silbe, ok
16:27 silbe thx!
16:28 erikos so, maybe let's stop here
16:28 garycmartin erikos: yea, before one of us is injured ;-)
16:28 erikos #action everyone contributing with mockups and ideas to the famous "Write to Journal anytime" feature
16:28 garycmartin: :)
16:28 any other comment for today?
16:29 starts the count down
16:29 5
16:29 silbe 4
16:29 erikos hehe
16:29 3
16:29 needs another adjutant
16:30 everyone sleeping already
16:30 gonzalo :)
16:30 erikos 1
16:30 #endmeeting
16:30 meeting Meeting ended Tue Jan 10 16:30:33 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:30 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-10T15:01:06.html
16:30 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]12-01-10T15:01:06
16:30 erikos thanks everyone!
16:30 gonzalo garycmartin, i have sent you Write screenshots
16:31 garycmartin erikos: thanks for chairing!
16:31 gonzalo: Yes just looking at the screen grabs now, thanks.
16:31 erikos needs tea now
16:31 walterbender erikos: thanks for the feedback... didn't mean to be ornery :P
16:32 erikos walterbender: no worries :) Is a tough one to get right...
16:35 garycmartin gonzalo: will reply by email, but the layout looks good to me. The call is really only what features were used more frequently, but we didn't have any real data from kids back when we did the original rework, and we don't have any new data available now, so I guess we can land this (FWIW back when the toolbar was re-designed I did look at what other document editors exposed as primary functions).
16:35 gonzalo garycmartin, ok
16:35 thanks!
16:36 garycmartin must dash, wood to chop for a fire and it's getting dark out there!
16:36 garycmartin has quit IRC
16:36 walterbender garycmartin: this new layout was based on feedback from .PY, FWIW
16:37 plus other feedback re the difficultly of finding image insert
16:37 missed him
16:38 gonzalo walterbender, yes, i think we have a ticket filled about this
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