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#sugar-meeting, 2012-01-08

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14:57 walterbender hi JT4sugar
14:59 JT4sugar Hi Walter
15:02 satellit_ listening
15:02 walterbender waiting for Christian
15:06 erikos is here
15:06 walterbender: read your proposal and added a link to mine
15:06 walterbender: (see email)
15:06 walterbender while we are waiting for Christian, please see http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ailed_Description
15:07 erikos: I added a link to your mock up from ^^
15:07 erikos: so you have your code snippet for ^^
15:07 ^so^do
15:08 erikos walterbender: I might have it somewhere but have to first locate it :/
15:08 walterbender: I did code it for the mockup indeed
15:09 walterbender I wrote the code for the Entry Alert, but didn't do the toolbar integration...
15:11 can we reach consensus about a few points to ground the discussion?
15:11 (1) that we don't want a modal interface for writing to the journal?
15:12 erikos hmm, i don't see the modal alert as a too bad option
15:12 walterbender (2) that we don't need to display the entire entry as most of it is not human-editable
15:12 erikos: I really think it is a big problem for the use case: taking notes while you work on things
15:13 JT4sugar walterbender, I like the look of Simon's alternative. Could description be renamed to reflection? Think this is the direction working towards not notes
15:13 walterbender and #2 is problematic because it means the activity is almost entirely obscured
15:13 erikos I agree on (2) that if we go down the approach sketched in the wiki page (yours or mine) we do not need all the entries of the detail view
15:13 JT4sugar: it is named description because that is the name in the Journal as well
15:14 walterbender erikos: but maybe we could add a star for favorite to whatever widget we use
15:14 erikos: what is your argument in favor of modal?
15:15 erikos walterbender: what I like about the approach sketched from Christian is that the relation to the Journal is clear
15:15 walterbender JT4sugar: +1 for "refection"
15:15 erikos: that is made clear by #2, not #1, is it not?
15:16 erikos walterbender: if I click on the 'take notes'-button in the activity or the details button of an entry in teh Journal we always display the same page/alert
15:16 I like that consistancy
15:17 walterbender erikos: I would like to change the latter as well, but not for 0.96
15:17 erikos walterbender: change the latter in which way?
15:17 walterbender erikos: we have nice mockups of expanding the detail view in place in the journal list view
15:17 much better, I think as it keeps a context...
15:18 so I wouldn't want to preserve consistency with something we may be changing anyway
15:18 plus the use case is different
15:19 I don't disagree with the need for some reference to Journal
15:19 JT4sugar erikos, Yes but in a writing sense you are trying to prompt reflection that is aking for more than a description? the key in the classroom is condtioning this reflective action.Can we rename field? Or create new one?
15:19 walterbender hence my use of a Journal icon
15:19 JT4sugar: I think description in the Journal entry could be changed to reflection as well
15:19 erikos JT4sugar: that is what I meant, if you think 'reflection' is a better name then 'description' it should be changed in both places
15:19 JT4sugar walterbender, Can you explain what exactly "Modal" refers to?
15:20 erikos, Gotcha
15:20 walterbender JT4sugar: you are unable to do anything else until you take action in that window
15:20 erikos walterbender: ok, maybe inline editing will be a nice thing, but we have to try that out first
15:20 walterbender: not sure it is the golden solution ;p
15:20 JT4sugar OK
15:21 erikos walterbender: so, that we change to inline editing is an assumption as well :)
15:21 walterbender erikos: agreed... just bringing it up as one reason I am not wedded to replicating the detail view in this instance
15:21 erikos ok
15:21 walterbender: what we should take into account as well is the usability with touch
15:21 walterbender: as this will come sooner or later
15:22 walterbender replication is just one mechanism for being referential... our crack design team can come up with others
15:22 erikos walterbender: sure
15:22 walterbender erikos: yes... we could add a virtual keyboard to your widget :)
15:23 erikos: having hacked on a XO-3.0 for 48 hours, lots of observations... for another meeting perhaps
15:23 erikos: but fundamentally, Sugar is not a bad experience :P
15:24 wonders where Christian is... will send him email
15:24 erikos walterbender: yeah, a lot of things are already in place, indeed
15:25 walterbender this was his suggested meeting time :P
15:25 erikos walterbender: I thin khe forgot :/
15:25 walterbender sent him an email
15:26 let's assume we go with some sort of widget on the toolbar or an alert as per the mockups...
15:27 what are the advantages/disadvantages of showing the entire description (reflection) field?
15:27 advantage is you see you past work/context for your new reflection
15:27 erikos yeah, lets use the time to discuss this a bit
15:27 walterbender disadvantage is that it takes up more room
15:28 and it may be more info than you need at the moment
15:28 I keep going back to commit messages as a model
15:28 you don't need to see the old ones to write a new one
15:29 erikos so you would want to appaned it?
15:29 walterbender it is a separate activity to review them collectively
15:29 erikos maybe an example can help:
15:29 It is Saturday, I do start writing my essay for Monday,
15:30 before closing the activity I add a description.
15:30 On Sunday I resume the Jurnal entry, write another paragraph,
15:30 walterbender erikos:  that is the old model
15:30 the new model is note taking in a more continuous fashion
15:31 erikos before I close the activity I want to edit the description
15:31 walterbender I decide to use this picture instead of that one, so I make a note of why at the time of the decision
15:31 erikos walterbender: well, it happens inside the activity
15:31 walterbender: whether at the end of the session or during you can not really control up to the user
15:31 walterbender it is more of a continuous monologue of decisions while using the activity
15:32 JT4sugar Understand we are trying to get in next release but in a long term vision kind of way would there be any way this could be combined with chat like abilities that would allow a teacher to pose a question into the "Reflection Box" that then child reflects on and is captured this way? Chat like functionality would allow for peer reflection or individual with a journaling/diary feel as well
15:32 walterbender erikos: yes... but we want to encourage more rather than less writing and reflecting
15:32 JT4sugar: that could be a nice use of the alert mechansim
15:33 erikos: I have a skewed world-view... everything seen through the eyes of Turtle Art
15:33 erikos walterbender: hmmm, but then it would be like leaving messages
15:33 walterbender erikos: yes...
15:33 lots of commit messages
15:34 erikos walterbender: so we would need to stamp it maybe to make clear
15:34 walterbender stamp as in timestamp?
15:34 erikos or at least show them in a bubble
15:34 walterbender that's OK
15:34 erikos walterbender: yes
15:34 walterbender +1 to timestamps
15:35 erikos so you somehow have a history inside the activity entry
15:35 walterbender erikos: this is why I was leaning more towards the UI I had mocked up... more of a short message model
15:35 erikos this is a bit like versions...;p
15:35 walterbender well... more like a commit log
15:35 if we had versions... it would fit nicely
15:36 erikos sure
15:36 walterbender but I am mostly concerned about making it easy to add reflections... path of least resistance
15:36 which is why I am almost tempted to have the alert or widget always present if the Activity toolbar is open
15:37 erikos ok, so let's assume we would do the approach, add 'messages', display them in bubbles and add timestamps
15:37 walterbender to me it is more important than changing the activity name
15:38 maybe flip them... that message entry "bubble" is always available and the title entry is invoked with a button
15:38 erikos hmm, i think the title is important too
15:39 but as we reomved the keep button, I think we have space for adding a 'message' field
15:39 walterbender it is important, but not something you change as often
15:39 erikos: in a manner such as your widget...
15:39 erikos the title entry could be shorter as well
15:39 walterbender: no, maybe directly on the toolbar
15:39 walterbender I guess what I am saying is that by default, the widget should be open...
15:39 erikos walterbender: yes, understood
15:40 walterbender erikos: do you really think there is room for both?
15:40 not in Turtle Art, but that may be exceptional
15:40 I could rework how I do my toolbars
15:40 erikos in TA you have the exports as well, right?
15:41 walterbender lots of different types of exports and imports
15:41 erikos ok
15:41 walterbender but I could put them on a submenu
15:41 erikos I could imagine as well the activity toolbar having the height doubled
15:41 walterbender erikos: that is sort of what I had in mind
15:41 erikos to give more room
15:42 walterbender the widget always expanded
15:42 erikos would like to sketch that now to show walter
15:43 walterbender erikos: actually, this raises an issue I encountered with the XO-3.0
15:43 the slightly smaller screen meant that many activity toolbars went off the end...
15:43 erikos walterbender: so either the widget expanded by default: for example: I click on the activity toolbar to expand it and it somes up like in my screenshot
15:44 walterbender: or making it double the size by default and rearrange the items
15:44 walterbender I think that should wrap to an double-height toolbar
15:44 erikos walterbender: ahh, the screen is smaller ok
15:45 walterbender we could make that happen by default instead of the pull-down menu???
15:45 but that is outside the scope of 0.96
15:46 but I think a double-sized activity toolbar would not break anything and would make this current issue easier to address
15:47 so the buttons an activity adds beyond the defaults would go on the bottom row?
15:47 JT4sugar If height doubled would that open up room for more buttons/functionality(for post 0.96 work)? If so is that where the Chat like functionality for peer review and Teacher question prompting could be put in place?
15:47 erikos walterbender: when you say activity toolbar, do you mean the subtoolbar?
15:47 walterbender: or the main toolbar?
15:47 walterbender erikos: yes
15:48 is that not what the subtoolbar is called right now? /me looks
15:48 erikos ok, I am talking as well about the activity subtoolbar with the title entry
15:48 walterbender: yeah, just making sure
15:49 walterbender whatever toolbar is associated with the ActivityToolbarButton :P
15:49 erikos good good
15:50 walterbender so if we double its size and add the reflection entry, bump the activity specific buttons to the second row?
15:50 maybe add a star-for-favorites button too?
15:51 erikos yeah, space wise it is possible I guess
15:51 (we might class with the star button in Browse (session bookmark) though)
15:51 walterbender erikos: I could try coding this up (maybe in time for the next devel team meeting)
15:51 erikos I think the sharing button we might want to move up to the main toolbar as well....
15:52 walterbender +1
15:52 erikos walterbender: maybe a mail summarizing what we discussed is enough for now
15:52 walterbender let me make some quick sketches too
15:52 erikos but if you have time, of course
15:52 walterbender erikos: me... all the time in the world :P
15:52 erikos :)
15:54 walterbender well, maybe we have gotten as far as we can w/o Christian and/or Gary
15:54 I will grab the log and add it to the wiki page and write up an email summary
15:55 but I think we are heading in a good direction
15:55 erikos walterbender: wonderful, thanks!
15:55 walterbender thank you
15:55 erikos walterbender: yes, it was very productive indeed
15:55 walterbender two heads are better than one
15:55 erikos yes, was a pleasure
15:55 walterbender three even better than two (jt)
15:55 erikos :)
15:56 JT4sugar Thanks for pushing this its very important on educational side-You staying around for 11 am meeting with Christain??
15:56 walterbender I'll stick around
15:58 erikos walterbender: JT4sugar: Christain said he will be around at 11am?
16:00 JT4sugar OK-I hope I didnt throw him off with my emails on Website revamp but mentioned it was after 10am Write to journal meeting that had been agreed upon in Sugar-devel
16:03 walterbender FYI, the for the previous discussion is here: Talk:Features/Write_to_journal_anytime#Log​_from_Design_Team_Meeting_08_January_2012
16:03 will start working on some mockups
16:06 erikos goes out now for some Sunday activity
16:06 cheers
16:06 JT4sugar walterbender, When mockups are ready you should make sure to get them to Gerald for finer points on usability-look, feel, and process
16:06 erikos has left #sugar-meeting
16:07 walterbender JT4sugar: will do
16:14 JT4sugar walterbender, Not having to much luck today on getting joiners-just sent Christian email-a reschedule may be needed-I'll wait on a response
16:17 satellit_ walterbender: FYI I have completed updating http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]vity_Test_Results for latest activities
16:19 still needs XX-1 I see...: (
16:19 s/XO-1
16:20 christianmarcsch <christianmarcsch!~christian@c-76-28-181-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:20 christianmarcsch hi--apologies for joining late
16:21 JT4sugar Hi Christian
16:21 christianmarcsch sorry, my mistake.
16:21 i was confused by the time zone difference.
16:22 walterbender christianmarcsch: we met to discuss "write to journal anytime"
16:23 christianmarcsch walterbender: sorry, yes. i just realized that would have been 7am my time
16:23 walterbender notes are at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/T[…]g_08_January_2012
16:23 christianmarcsch walterbender: thanks
16:23 walterbender christianmarcsch: I'll be writing up a summary and making some mockups
16:24 christianmarcsch walterbender: i can comment via email if you send out the mocks
16:25 walterbender: I was thinking 2 hrs diff, not 3 for some reason. my mistake
16:25 cjl Please add Tranasltion team to list of teams on homepage
16:25 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: have you started the meeting yet?
16:27 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, No we were waiting and there is only a few around. We can have some discussion but looks like a reschedule might be in order to get more voices
16:27 walterbender is not sure we need so much discussion about the design, which is excellent, than a discussion about content, which is sparse
16:28 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: OK, that is fine with me. We can discuss first today, and then reschedule for later today or another day?
16:28 walterbender: thanks. i agree that content is our biggest issue
16:29 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, We have only a few email responses I am fine with Design only big comment coming back was from Caryl about absence of Educational area for lesson plans and use of activities for lessons
16:31 christianmarcsch, cjl of translation team wants that team added to list of teams on homepage as well
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16:32 christianmarcsch is caryl online?
16:33 JT4sugar walterbender, Big question becomes how do we engage on content if we are not getting big response to emails? Most were unable to make today. Caryl not here
16:34 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: that gets to the core of the problem
16:35 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, A possibility would be to try and set up IRC meeting with Caryl and Gerald Ardito and get a direct response from retired teacher(Caryl) and present (Gerald). Maybe you sending them personal email?
16:37 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: Sure, I'd be happy to try that
16:38 i thought caryl's feedback was good. that is what we thought the forums could be there to facilitate, but that piece hasn't received any thought yet
16:38 satellit_ I am having trouble using http://www.christianmarcschmid[…]arlabs/index.html  ( I do not have java on this machine) I like the layout  Have you seen http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]o_Sugar_Interface tutorial ?
16:39 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: were you thinking we would try for later today?
16:39 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, No I don't beleive we can garner any additional folks. Sometime later this week?
16:40 christianmarcsch satellit_: sorry you are having trouble. i realize it may not be intuitive--clicking on the right half of the image advances, clicking on the left half goes back. it is essentially a slideshow
16:40 satellit_ ok
16:40 JT4sugar cjl, walterbender Any ideas on how to engage more on gathering content? Myself and Christian keep hitting this wall
16:40 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: ok, next week should work for me. we could try for wednesday or friday
16:41 satellit_: you should't need java, only javascript
16:41 walterbender JT4sugar: there is lots of content out there... but someone is just going to have to work at gathering it.
16:41 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, My thought is for you to send out email with time on wed and fri and see if we get response
16:42 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: will do. are you thinking small group, say walter, yourself, caryl and gerald?
16:42 satellit_ ok  thanks firefox on ubuntu  10.04 LTS.
16:43 I would like to help also ......
16:44 christianmarcsch thanks satellit_!
16:45 JT4sugar walterbender, In Spring when not much coming in Mike Devine began to cold call off OLPC.net to get most of it. It should not be that difficult. Maybe a Sugar Digest with big section on this and why it's so important to Sugar's Future-hopefully to start flow of content
16:45 cjl Some querying on youtube for OLPC will find lot sof possibilities.
16:47 JT4sugar OLPCmap.net I mean
16:47 satellit_ comment: need <  left side and >  right side on javascript window for next screen nav
16:47 christianmarcsch walterbender: agreed. we are looking for someone to step in to help with the content gathering.
16:48 satellit_: can you click on the image itself? the background of the window?
16:48 satellit_: note that this is only a slide show, not the actual website interaction! just a way for us to look at the design mocks
16:49 satellit_ ok now I see it. The first screen needs the < and > : )
16:49 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, walterbender A small grouping with Caryl and Gerald would be good. Walter is there a few other Teachers you could see joining? Claudia?
16:49 christianmarcsch re: content, i'm still of the opinion that it would be best if there were a single "owner" to facilitate the effort
16:50 the content owner could reach out to the community to gather content but also generate much of it
16:50 ideally someone with a history with sugar labs who knows where content is stored on the wiki
16:52 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, That would not be a competency I have. Our reaching out hasn't worked that well so I'm hesitant and would not have the time for a full fledged cold call community approach
16:54 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: yes, and in the absence of a content owner i suppose the next best step is to engage the community with you and i acting as editors/curators
16:54 JT4sugar walterbender, Does anyone come to mind that fits Christian's description? or could we use Sugar Labs funds to Fund an Internship position to perform function?
16:55 christianmarcsch i've said before that if i thought i could get this done on my own, i would, but i'm afraid that i don't have the full insight needed to pull the content together in a way that is reflective of the goals of the project, especially at the educational level
16:56 JT4sugar walterbender, Maybe a MIT, Tufts, Harvard, or BU student that would have access to Sugar and OLPC people in Boston
16:56 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: i like the notion of an internship, although also wary of repeating what happened when mike & jt were on-board
16:57 satellit_ have to leave...sorry let me know if I can contribute.  some content ; not-teacher test cases  may be on the Sugar Creation Kit Project Page already and can be adopted for non technical content : )
16:58 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, Granted but with no flow of content from Community. As Walter says it's out there. How do you do it otherwise unless you took it as full time prospect
16:58 christianmarcsch satellit_: thanks so much! will look at the page you mention
16:58 JT4sugar satellit_, Thanks
16:58 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: agreed
16:59 satellit_ http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Creation_Kit  for reference
16:59 JT4sugar walterbender, Internship idea??
16:59 christianmarcsch satellit_: thx, looking now
16:59 satellit_ bye...
17:00 : )
17:00 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, What kind of process was used on Original Sugar Labs site to gather content?
17:02 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: we were a small group of contributors. the first time, i believe walter and nicholas helped directly. the second time, it was facilitated by the marketing director (aaron, at the time), and we had a group of 3-4 folks who contributed content via a shared document, exactly like what we have now put in place for sugar labs
17:05 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, Why don't we start by you sending out email to community for Design explanation IRC meeting. Also email to Caryl and Gerald for a Small group Teacher feedback
17:05 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: yes, will do
17:05 JT4sugar: i'm digging up the content doc we used back when we were doing the olpc refresh, 1sec
17:06 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, I will follow up with Walter on Internship idea and see if we can get a individual(hopefully student in Boston)who will have time to do the leg work
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17:07 christianmarcsch here is a link to the final content doc we had for olpc:
17:07 https://docs.google.com/docume[…]bRzQQ0AXKsNU/edit
17:08 JT4sugar: take a look, that is essentially what we worked with. it is less structured even that the current doc we have for sugar labs
17:08 JT4sugar: but this was enough to get the content in for an initial launch
17:09 JT4sugar: we also had a folder of images on flickr that we used, in addition to text content
17:11 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, If I hadn't started my Masters program I probably would have the time but that has dissapeared. Lets move forward with plan and see what happens?
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17:12 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: yes, we should move forward with the plan
17:13 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, Hopefully your emails will ignite a flurry of positive developments
17:13 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: thanks, i hope so too :)
17:14 JT4sugar: do you have gerald's email address?
17:16 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, I will look for your emails. Sent you email address in side box
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17:16 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: just saw, thanks. writing emails now...
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17:17 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, Thanks I have to go out now we will talk soon!!
17:17 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: thanks john, and sorry again for being late. i will write the mail and hopefully we can get better attendance next time
17:18 JT4sugar Great and Hope so!!
17:18 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: talk to you soon
18:16 JT4sugar: sorry, when you say email the community for design explanation, what do you mean?
18:16 JT4sugar: were you thinking explanation about the process, or something else?
18:50 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, What I meant was for you to send an email to the larger lists outside of Gerald and Caryl to aks for content help a reschedule in a way of todays meeting to discuss document for those with questions and who would like to help. Today seemed like a bad time for most
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18:57 christianmarcsch JT4sugar: Got it
18:57 JT4sugar: I'll send a note out now
19:01 JT4sugar christianmarcsch, Cool-Thanks!
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23:08 meeting <meeting!~sugaroid@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
23:08 sendak.freenode.net [freenode-info] please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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23:43 dogi <dogi!~omen@honeydew.cictr.com> has joined #sugar-meeting

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