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| 15:00 | erikos | #startmeeting |
| 15:00 | meeting | Meeting started Tue Dec 13 15:00:22 2011 UTC. The chair is erikos. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 15:00 | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting | |
| 15:00 | erikos | looks around for who is here for the development meeting |
| 15:01 | dsd_ <dsd_!~dsdcpc2-hitc2-0-0-cust908.9-2.cable.virginmedia.com> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 15:03 | erikos | who is here for the meeting? |
| 15:03 | dsd_ | e |
| 15:03 | me | |
| 15:03 | erikos | hey dsd_, nice surprise ;p |
| 15:07 | manuq <manuq!~manuq190.210.143.197> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 15:07 | m_anish | is lingering |
| 15:07 | erikos | silbe: around? |
| 15:07 | manuq | hello |
| 15:07 | erikos | hi manuq |
| 15:09 | dirakx has quit IRC | |
| 15:09 | erikos | ok, let's start |
| 15:10 | manuq | topics? |
| 15:10 | erikos | #topic status of the GTK3 port [1], can we merge the outstanding patches and get a first release? |
| 15:11 | #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3 | |
| 15:11 | so, there have been a lot of progress this week on several ends: | |
| 15:11 | - palettes (dsd) | |
| 15:12 | silbe | is there |
| 15:12 | erikos | - theme (manu, gonzalo and simon) |
| 15:12 | - Browse (manu) | |
| 15:12 | - Read (gonzalo) | |
| 15:13 | - aslo, gtk activities (simon) | |
| 15:13 | dsd_: do you want to give a short summary about palettes? | |
| 15:13 | dsd_ | yeah |
| 15:13 | we fixed the main behavioural issues | |
| 15:14 | showing and hiding etc | |
| 15:14 | for menus and window-based palettes | |
| 15:14 | the new structure does introduce a change of behaviour for some palettes | |
| 15:14 | those that mix regular widgets and menus can no longer mix | |
| 15:14 | like the speaker icon | |
| 15:15 | but there will not be many of those | |
| 15:15 | erikos | dsd_: and those will package then all in a menu, correct? |
| 15:15 | dsd_ | thats it so far, next step is to clean up the patches and submit them |
| 15:15 | or in a window without using a menu | |
| 15:15 | erikos | dsd_: ok |
| 15:15 | manuq | cool |
| 15:16 | erikos | dsd_: so, what rests there is full theming of the palettes, which I am working on atm |
| 15:16 | dsd_: (which does not hold off the patches of course) | |
| 15:16 | dsd_: fatastic work! | |
| 15:17 | thanks as well to marcopg for helping us on that end! | |
| 15:17 | questions here? | |
| 15:18 | ok, next one | |
| 15:18 | - theme: manuq, can you do a quick wrap up? | |
| 15:19 | manuq | yeah |
| 15:19 | erikos | #link for background reading http://erikos.sweettimez.de/ |
| 15:22 | manuq | so, we were learning how the css stylesheet works in gtk3, using a test activity with several widgets |
| 15:22 | and I'm passing now the css styles from that local css to the sugar-artwork css | |
| 15:22 | we are also finding what can be done with current gtk3, gnome-themes-standard packages | |
| 15:23 | ..and what we have to wait for the new packages of does products | |
| 15:23 | we are in contact with the gtk3 theme people | |
| 15:24 | erikos | manuq: ok, right, there are changes in gtk itself for the theming |
| 15:24 | manuq | erikos: right |
| 15:24 | erikos | manuq: so, yeah - we will get those soon |
| 15:25 | manuq | here is a wiki page for the theme status: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3/Theme |
| 15:25 | erikos | manuq: the good thing is, I don't see any major blokcer in the theme port atm |
| 15:25 | manuq: thanks | |
| 15:25 | #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3/Theme | |
| 15:25 | manuq | erikos: yes, and a lot of things can be done using SVG graphics, which is good |
| 15:26 | erikos | manuq: maybe we can do a summary soon, and send the patches for review, so that benzea can comment |
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| 15:26 | manuq | erikos: perfect |
| 15:26 | also gonzalo was working in the theme resolution | |
| 15:27 | erikos | manuq: perfect, so let's aim for the end of this week to send the patches for review |
| 15:27 | next one | |
| 15:28 | manuq | erikos: about the review timing, great |
| 15:28 | erikos | manuq: ok browse+webkit, any major blockers there? |
| 15:29 | manuq: I think we have a few pending patches for review | |
| 15:29 | manuq: so we should just find some time to review+merge them in | |
| 15:30 | manuq: and then upload a new version (0.96 only) to aslo | |
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| 15:30 | manuq | erikos: yes, the with the theme work we stopped a bit |
| 15:31 | erikos | manuq: yes, of course |
| 15:31 | manuq: we are still far ahead of time, so I amnot worried about it | |
| 15:31 | manuq | erikos: but I'm rebasing patches now under your review, and we are going mainline noe |
| 15:31 | now | |
| 15:31 | erikos | manuq: wonderful |
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| 15:31 | erikos | manuq: no blockers so far, right? |
| 15:31 | manuq | I have several code ported to rebase |
| 15:32 | erikos: the session store was stepping me a bit | |
| 15:32 | erikos: but I'm sure it can be done in webkit | |
| 15:32 | erikos | manuq: yes, is a tricky one |
| 15:32 | manuq: right, that is what I hoped to hear ;p | |
| 15:33 | manuq | wiki page of status here: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/inde[…]ebKit/Development |
| 15:34 | erikos | #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ebKit/Development |
| 15:34 | ok, the next one is Read | |
| 15:34 | as Gonzalo is travelling, he did finish the major task of porting to gtk3 and introspection | |
| 15:34 | and uploaded a new version to aslo (0.96) | |
| 15:35 | next one, aslo: | |
| 15:35 | so we can upload activities to aslo, just have to put them under the 0.96 platform | |
| 15:35 | and then browse have to use the user agent to identify itself | |
| 15:35 | as being only interested in 0.96 activities | |
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| 15:36 | erikos | a quick hack is here: http://erikos.sweettimez.de/?p=1075 |
| 15:36 | how that can be done in webkit | |
| 15:36 | thinks that were all the points for the wrap up | |
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| 15:36 | manuq | erikos: it will be a new version for previous Browse without webkit for that too? |
| 15:38 | dsd_ | i think we used to have this |
| 15:38 | but it has been broken for a while | |
| 15:38 | http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/2834 | |
| 15:40 | i dont think we should worry about it | |
| 15:40 | manuq | dsd_: ok |
| 15:40 | dsd_ | but patches accepted of course |
| 15:40 | erikos | dsd_: ok, I guess it might suffice for the new version to set it |
| 15:40 | great! | |
| 15:40 | #topic merge patches for sugar/sugar-toolkit | |
| 15:41 | ping silbe | |
| 15:41 | silbe: how is the status on that end | |
| 15:41 | ? | |
| 15:42 | silbe | erikos: I'll need to catch up on the email thread, but AFAICT most things should be in good shape now (except for the sugar-activity patch, where I'm questioning the approach after having seen all of it). |
| 15:43 | dsd_ | ok so lets discuss that patch first |
| 15:43 | erikos | ok - sounds good |
| 15:43 | as I want to package the status for circulation I am highly interested that this patch lands | |
| 15:43 | silbe | not sure synchronous communication it well suited for that, but we can try |
| 15:43 | erikos | (several repos affected) |
| 15:44 | silbe | erikos: so you want exactly this approach to be used, not any of the alternatives I suggested? |
| 15:44 | dsd_ | so one of the main things we decided in the earlier discussions was that it is important not to change the activity.info format |
| 15:44 | erikos | silbe: so, the idea behind daniels patch is that activity authors only have to set sugar3 at one place |
| 15:45 | silbe: in the activity code | |
| 15:45 | dsd_ | and that authors should specify exactly once which sugar-toolkit they want, not twice |
| 15:45 | erikos | silbe: well, we have been discussing that appraoch in prague for quite a while and put all our soul into it ;p |
| 15:46 | dsd_ | this came out of two long discussions with me, erikos, tomeu, walter, marco and ben |
| 15:46 | silbe | dsd_: why was that considered important? Authors even need to do code changes, including running a tool to convert identifiers and probably hand-tweaking the result. |
| 15:46 | erikos | silbe: of course we are convinced it is a good appraoch |
| 15:46 | dsd_ | silbe: your mail pretty well spells out the pain of changing activity.info |
| 15:46 | what we have in these patches is simply much simpler | |
| 15:47 | and doesnt require further changes in all/many activities.. a simplification step | |
| 15:48 | sugar-activity is already a part of sugar, although basic, so in some ways this is also a lesser invasive change for the platform components | |
| 15:49 | silbe | dsd_: if you take the most complicated solution, yes. The wrapper script would be pretty easy and simple. |
| 15:49 | dsd_ | however, sugar-activity could be moved to sugar-toolkit-gtk3 (which will be a platform requirement) if you dislike the choiec of repo |
| 15:49 | erikos | silbe: but then you need to include a wrapper script in each activity |
| 15:49 | dsd_ | i fail to see how moving code around (which is what my patch does) is more complicatd than changing mechanics, affecting multiple activities, requiring new code to be written |
| 15:49 | silbe | erikos: like we already do for setup.py |
| 15:50 | erikos | silbe: but why another one, if we do not have to? |
| 15:50 | dsd_ | silbe: you did realse that my patch is entirely existing code, right? |
| 15:50 | silbe | erikos: because it's cleaner, loosening the coupling between sugar and sugar-toolkit rather than reinforcing it |
| 15:50 | dsd_ | minus the mainloop bit |
| 15:50 | silbe | dsd_: yes, I did. |
| 15:51 | erikos | silbe: to me this is not cleaner actually |
| 15:51 | silbe | erikos: why? |
| 15:51 | dsd_ | but we cannot run sugar without sugar-toolkit |
| 15:51 | sugar uses loads of the widgets | |
| 15:51 | it is a very strong relationship that cannot be broken | |
| 15:52 | erikos | silbe: I don't find it a clean solution to have to put wrapper scripts in each activity |
| 15:52 | silbe | dsd_: yes, but activities don't use code from sugar other than the sugar-activity script. |
| 15:52 | dsd_ | silbe: ok, so lets move that script (in the form of my patch) into the toolkit, without changing its name |
| 15:52 | silbe | erikos: then we should drop setup.py as well ;) |
| 15:53 | cjl | dsd_: I saw the sugar-toolkit patch and wondered if it moved any strings into different PO files? |
| 15:53 | silbe | dsd_: I'd have to consider the consequences again, but in general it sounds good to me. |
| 15:54 | cjl | jsut thinking of how to avoid relocalizing moed strings if they already exist. |
| 15:55 | s/moed/moved/ | |
| 15:55 | erikos | silbe: so, moving the script to the toolkit-gtk3 is fine with me as well |
| 15:55 | silbe | great |
| 15:55 | erikos | silbe: ok, so this one looks to be sorted |
| 15:55 | dsd_ | ok |
| 15:55 | i will repost the patch after the meeting | |
| 15:56 | silbe | dsd_: thanks! |
| 15:56 | erikos | dsd_: thanks |
| 15:56 | dsd_ | silbe: will you have time to review it today if i do it immediately? |
| 15:56 | or are you wiling to trust erikos review? :) | |
| 15:56 | silbe | dsd_: can't promise, but I'll try to get it reviewed this week. |
| 15:57 | (i.e. either today or on the weekend) | |
| 15:57 | erikos | silbe: we really should move on on this one |
| 15:57 | dsd_ | silbe: please.. |
| 15:57 | silbe:you have had the patch in your hands for ages | |
| 15:57 | erikos | silbe: you have seen the patch already and it does not change anything |
| 15:57 | dsd_ | i have posted it as your requested, you have reviewed it to some extent already |
| 15:57 | silbe | erikos: don't try to press me. This is the first time I saw the full patch. |
| 15:57 | dsd_ | i am now going to post it again against a different repo with no changes |
| 15:58 | this is holding us back | |
| 15:58 | silbe | dsd_: not on purpose. I only ever saw the sugar-toolkit part of it. |
| 15:58 | erikos | silbe: but, you should maybe trust more the other maintainers and members |
| 15:59 | silbe: I mean, you have pointed out one part, ok | |
| 15:59 | dsd_ | how about if we pause the meeting while you review it now? |
| 15:59 | this review is more important than the rest of the meeting | |
| 15:59 | silbe | dsd_: it's going to take more than just a few minutes |
| 15:59 | dsd_ | we will wait |
| 15:59 | silbe | dsd_: and I have other stuff to do after the meeting |
| 16:00 | dsd_ | right, but what about if we do it now |
| 16:00 | during the meeting | |
| 16:00 | nobody will say a word while you review it, you wont miss anything | |
| 16:00 | erikos | silbe: see, it is fair to say that you have other stuff to do of course, but then maybe you should adjust your way of reviewing as well accordingly |
| 16:00 | silbe | dsd_: it would still take me much longer than the meeting would have been. |
| 16:00 | dsd_ | silbe: we will wait |
| 16:01 | please? | |
| 16:01 | erikos | silbe: the regrouping of the gtk-3 branch for the toolkit 'just' added more comments and descriptions (which is good) |
| 16:01 | silbe | dsd_: ok, let's meet again in a few hours then. Say 21 UTC? |
| 16:01 | erikos | silbe: but does not warrent to hold us back for so long |
| 16:01 | dsd_ | silbe: so you will work on it right now, and you think it will take you a few hours? |
| 16:02 | ie a 5 hour review (estimated) ? | |
| 16:02 | silbe | dsd_: I will start working on it once I finished my other work, and I assume the review takes about two to three hours. |
| 16:03 | dsd_ | you have other work that is more important? |
| 16:03 | silbe | dsd_: yes, I do. |
| 16:03 | dsd_ | i.e. that has more dependencies than this, that blocks more people? |
| 16:04 | cjl | think that a man is entitled to plan his own day. silbe has promised to get on it as soon as he can. |
| 16:04 | silbe | dsd_: it has a higher priority for me, not necessarily for you. |
| 16:05 | cjl | I do not know that badgering over a same day issue is an effective use of time. |
| 16:05 | erikos | silbe: how can we move forward on this? |
| 16:06 | silbe: I am sorry to say, that I am really unhappy about it | |
| 16:06 | dsd_ | me too |
| 16:06 | and we have all the other patches in the branch | |
| 16:06 | silbe | dsd_: In Paris, you wanted me to continue maintaining Sugar. But if we go on like this, it's not going to work. |
| 16:06 | dsd_ | and the stuff this week |
| 16:06 | erikos | silbe: I absolutely respect you and that you take the time to do things right |
| 16:06 | dsd_ | silbe: i agree, what you do you suggset? your slow reviews are really holding things back |
| 16:07 | and your lack of interest in prioritising something that is of great importance to sugar is a little upsetting | |
| 16:07 | cjl | asks everyone to take a deep breath and think about how important our common goals are. |
| 16:07 | silbe | dsd_: I don't consider less than one week for a patch slow. And I already am prioritising the GTK3 work so much that I'm getting into trouble with my customers. |
| 16:08 | erikos | cjl: no, worries, we just try to coomunicate our different views |
| 16:09 | silbe | but as you seem to have such a strong impression of me blocking you, I suggest that you maintain sugar-toolkit-gtk3 and I'll concentrate on sugar and sugar-datastore. |
| 16:10 | dsd_ | this sounds like a good idea |
| 16:11 | i think that would be a win for everyone - significantly less pressure for you, you have so many roles | |
| 16:11 | and would allow us to pick up the pace on this critical project | |
| 16:11 | erikos | silbe: as I said earlier, we do not want to put you under pressure |
| 16:12 | cjl | It does sound like a reasonable compromise at a time when there is necessarily the dual-track of current and future-gtk3 supporting activity. |
| 16:12 | silbe | erikos: honestly, from this conversation I have the exact opposite impression. |
| 16:12 | erikos | silbe: as I said, I respect that you do want to do things at your speed |
| 16:12 | silbe: and I take my time as well to do reviews | |
| 16:13 | silbe: but maybe you want to do it sometimes too good | |
| 16:13 | and you could trust us more | |
| 16:13 | dsd_ | delegating is a fine skill in my eyes |
| 16:14 | silbe | erikos: it's not about trust, it's about maintainable code. The commits in the sugar-toolkit GTK3 branch were making it hard to maintain the code. |
| 16:14 | erikos | dsd_: that is what I would have said next |
| 16:14 | silbe: I would not have landed them like that neither | |
| 16:14 | dsd_ | silbe: thanks a lot for the great cleanup of those patches btw |
| 16:14 | silbe | as nobody else was willing to fix them up, I stepped up to do it. But it takes time. |
| 16:15 | dsd_ | anyway, lets concentrate on moving forward |
| 16:15 | erikos | silbe: but I think we could have find a 'middle-nitpicky-way' that would have moved us forward equally well |
| 16:15 | silbe | And now you're pressing me because I'm not fast enough to do that _and_ reviews _and_ all my other work. |
| 16:16 | erikos | silbe: that is not true, I said I would fix them up us well, we met several times to do it together as well |
| 16:16 | silbe: but you wanted to order them differently etc | |
| 16:16 | silbe: and that I told you, I don't think is necessary but you wanted to do it | |
| 16:16 | anyhow | |
| 16:16 | dsd_ | yes, lets move on |
| 16:16 | cjl | A key mgmt principle "Be hard on the problem, soft on the people". I'm bothering to talk here at all because I think silee has justification to be feeling badgered. He has calmly suggested a solution, let's focus on the problem and not the people. |
| 16:17 | erikos | so just to keep the record clear |
| 16:17 | anyhow, let's move forward | |
| 16:17 | dsd_ | ok so |
| 16:18 | erikos: lets discuss initial steps on suga-toolkitgtk3 | |
| 16:18 | sorry for this dodgy keyboard | |
| 16:18 | we should take saschas branch and integrate the feedback we provided by email | |
| 16:18 | erikos | dsd_: so we have the repository already |
| 16:19 | dsd_ | and that could become master ? |
| 16:19 | erikos | dsd_: yes |
| 16:19 | silbe | erikos, dsd_: so we all agree that dsd_ will maintain sugar-toolkit-gtk3? Alone or together with erikos? |
| 16:19 | dsd_ | together |
| 16:19 | silbe | ok |
| 16:20 | dsd_ | thanks a lot for being open to this |
| 16:20 | erikos | silbe: yes, thanks |
| 16:20 | silbe | dsd_: can you take care of updating a) the wiki and b) the MAINTAINERS file? I can do the announcement on sugar-devel. |
| 16:20 | dsd_ | sure |
| 16:20 | silbe | thanks |
| 16:21 | cjl | silbe, I think you've proposed an elegant solution there. |
| 16:22 | dsd_ | ok so, we can create master as discussed above |
| 16:22 | then create the palette patch (cleaned up etc) to be reviewed | |
| 16:22 | then any other patches we have come up with in the last few days to follow the normal review process | |
| 16:23 | erikos | dsd_: yes, that sounds good, once we are at that point, things will be smoothen out |
| 16:23 | aything else on this? | |
| 16:23 | dsd_ | thats all from me, i think w can move to nxt topic |
| 16:23 | erikos | the gtk3 topic i mean? |
| 16:24 | great | |
| 16:24 | dsd_ | the one after the gtk3 topic :) we just did that |
| 16:24 | erikos | #topic current status of the development cycle |
| 16:24 | #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.96/Roadmap | |
| 16:27 | dsd_ | still quite a while before first freeze |
| 16:27 | erikos | dsd_: yes |
| 16:28 | dsd_: we did not package Sucrose 0.95.3 | |
| 16:28 | dsd_ | a task for this week |
| 16:28 | erikos | dsd_: I would like to just do that at the end of the week |
| 16:28 | dsd_: exactly! | |
| 16:29 | so, I guess, let's close this meeting and get this done! | |
| 16:29 | other comments? | |
| 16:29 | ideas? | |
| 16:29 | questions? | |
| 16:29 | 5 | |
| 16:29 | 4 | |
| 16:29 | 3.33333333333 | |
| 16:29 | 2 | |
| 16:29 | i | |
| 16:29 | 1 | |
| 16:29 | silbe | 0 |
| 16:30 | dsd_ | 32768 |
| 16:30 | wraparound | |
| 16:30 | or would that be 32767 | |
| 16:30 | erikos | #endmeeting |
| 16:30 | meeting | Meeting ended Tue Dec 13 16:30:16 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
| 16:30 | Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-13T15:00:22.html | |
| 16:30 | Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-12-13T15:00:22 | |
| 16:30 | erikos | finishing with a question is good! |
| 16:30 | :) | |
| 16:30 | thanks everyone - see you again next week! | |
| 16:30 | silbe | dsd_: I guess 65535 or -1, depending on signedness. :) |
| 16:31 | dsd_ | hehe indeed |
| 16:36 | cjl | dsd_: Is th etoolkit refactoring going to move strings from one PO to another? |
| 16:36 | dsd_ | nope |
| 16:37 | but are you aware of the considerations for sugar-toolkit-gtk3 in general? | |
| 16:39 | cjl | Um, I am mostly intersted in following the strings, but I do get tha ttoolkit-gtk3 is going to be outr way of supoorting both gtk2 and gtk3. |
| 16:39 | dsd_ | lets move to £sugar and i'll explain |
| 16:39 | cjl | ok |
| 16:39 | dsd_ has left #sugar-meeting | |
| 16:40 | erikos has left #sugar-meeting | |
| 17:17 | gonzalo_ <gonzalo_!~gonzalo190.210.143.197> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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