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#sugar-meeting, 2011-12-13

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15:00 erikos #startmeeting
15:00 meeting Meeting started Tue Dec 13 15:00:22 2011 UTC. The chair is erikos. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:00 erikos looks around for who is here for the development meeting
15:01 dsd_ <dsd_!~dsd@cpc2-hitc2-0-0-cust908.9-2.cable.virginmedia.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:03 erikos who is here for the meeting?
15:03 dsd_ e
15:03 me
15:03 erikos hey dsd_, nice surprise ;p
15:07 manuq <manuq!~manuq@> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:07 m_anish is lingering
15:07 erikos silbe: around?
15:07 manuq hello
15:07 erikos hi manuq
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15:09 erikos ok, let's start
15:10 manuq topics?
15:10 erikos #topic status of the GTK3 port [1], can we merge the outstanding patches and get a first release?
15:11 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3
15:11 so, there have been a lot of progress this week on several ends:
15:11 - palettes (dsd)
15:12 silbe is there
15:12 erikos - theme (manu, gonzalo and simon)
15:12 - Browse (manu)
15:12 - Read (gonzalo)
15:13 - aslo, gtk activities (simon)
15:13 dsd_: do you want to give a short summary about palettes?
15:13 dsd_ yeah
15:13 we fixed the main behavioural issues
15:14 showing and hiding etc
15:14 for menus and window-based palettes
15:14 the new structure does introduce a change of behaviour for some palettes
15:14 those that mix regular widgets and menus can no longer mix
15:14 like the speaker icon
15:15 but there will not be many of those
15:15 erikos dsd_: and those will package then all in a menu, correct?
15:15 dsd_ thats it so far, next step is to clean up the patches and submit them
15:15 or in a window without using a menu
15:15 erikos dsd_: ok
15:15 manuq cool
15:16 erikos dsd_: so, what rests there is full theming of the palettes, which I am working on atm
15:16 dsd_: (which does not hold off the patches of course)
15:16 dsd_: fatastic work!
15:17 thanks as well to marcopg for helping us on that end!
15:17 questions here?
15:18 ok, next one
15:18 - theme: manuq, can you do a quick wrap up?
15:19 manuq yeah
15:19 erikos #link for background reading http://erikos.sweettimez.de/
15:22 manuq so, we were learning how the css stylesheet works in gtk3, using a test activity with several widgets
15:22 and I'm passing now the css styles from that local css to the sugar-artwork css
15:22 we are also finding what can be done with current gtk3, gnome-themes-standard packages
15:23 ..and what we have to wait for the new packages of does products
15:23 we are in contact with the gtk3 theme people
15:24 erikos manuq: ok, right, there are changes in gtk itself for the theming
15:24 manuq erikos: right
15:24 erikos manuq: so, yeah - we will get those soon
15:25 manuq here is a wiki page for the theme status: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3/Theme
15:25 erikos manuq: the good thing is, I don't see any major blokcer in the theme port atm
15:25 manuq: thanks
15:25 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3/Theme
15:25 manuq erikos: yes, and a lot of things can be done using SVG graphics, which is good
15:26 erikos manuq: maybe we can do a summary soon, and send the patches for review, so that benzea can comment
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15:26 manuq erikos: perfect
15:26 also gonzalo was working in the theme resolution
15:27 erikos manuq: perfect, so let's aim for the end of this week to send the patches for review
15:27 next one
15:28 manuq erikos: about the review timing, great
15:28 erikos manuq: ok browse+webkit, any major blockers there?
15:29 manuq: I think we have a few pending patches for review
15:29 manuq: so we should just find some time to review+merge them in
15:30 manuq: and then upload a new version (0.96 only) to aslo
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15:30 manuq erikos: yes, the with the theme work we stopped a bit
15:31 erikos manuq: yes, of course
15:31 manuq: we are still far ahead of time, so I amnot worried about it
15:31 manuq erikos: but I'm rebasing patches now under your review, and we are going mainline noe
15:31 now
15:31 erikos manuq: wonderful
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15:31 erikos manuq: no blockers so far, right?
15:31 manuq I have several code ported to rebase
15:32 erikos: the session store was stepping me a bit
15:32 erikos: but I'm sure it can be done in webkit
15:32 erikos manuq: yes, is a tricky one
15:32 manuq: right, that is what I hoped to hear ;p
15:33 manuq wiki page of status here: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/inde[…]ebKit/Development
15:34 erikos #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ebKit/Development
15:34 ok, the next one is Read
15:34 as Gonzalo is travelling, he did finish the major task of porting to gtk3 and introspection
15:34 and uploaded a new version to aslo (0.96)
15:35 next one, aslo:
15:35 so we can upload activities to aslo, just have to put them under the 0.96 platform
15:35 and then browse have to use the user agent to identify itself
15:35 as being only interested in 0.96 activities
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15:36 erikos a quick hack is here: http://erikos.sweettimez.de/?p=1075
15:36 how that can be done in webkit
15:36 thinks that were all the points for the wrap up
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15:36 manuq erikos: it will be a new version for previous Browse without webkit for that too?
15:38 dsd_ i think we used to have this
15:38 but it has been broken for a while
15:38 http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/2834
15:40 i dont think we should worry about it
15:40 manuq dsd_: ok
15:40 dsd_ but patches accepted of course
15:40 erikos dsd_: ok, I guess it might suffice for the new version to set it
15:40 great!
15:40 #topic merge patches for sugar/sugar-toolkit
15:41 ping silbe
15:41 silbe: how is the status on that end
15:41 ?
15:42 silbe erikos: I'll need to catch up on the email thread, but AFAICT most things should be in good shape now (except for the sugar-activity patch, where I'm questioning the approach after having seen all of it).
15:43 dsd_ ok so lets discuss that patch first
15:43 erikos ok - sounds good
15:43 as I want to package the status for circulation I am highly interested that this patch lands
15:43 silbe not sure synchronous communication it well suited for that, but we can try
15:43 erikos (several repos affected)
15:44 silbe erikos: so you want exactly this approach to be used, not any of the alternatives I suggested?
15:44 dsd_ so one of the main things we decided in the earlier discussions was that it is important not to change the activity.info format
15:44 erikos silbe: so, the idea behind daniels patch is that activity authors only have to set sugar3 at one place
15:45 silbe: in the activity code
15:45 dsd_ and that authors should specify exactly once which sugar-toolkit they want, not twice
15:45 erikos silbe: well, we have been discussing that appraoch in prague for quite a while and put all our soul into it ;p
15:46 dsd_ this came out of two long discussions with me, erikos, tomeu, walter, marco and ben
15:46 silbe dsd_: why was that considered important? Authors even need to do code changes, including running a tool to convert identifiers and probably hand-tweaking the result.
15:46 erikos silbe: of course we are convinced it is a good appraoch
15:46 dsd_ silbe: your mail pretty well spells out the pain of changing activity.info
15:46 what we have in these patches is simply much simpler
15:47 and doesnt require further changes in all/many activities.. a simplification step
15:48 sugar-activity is already a part of sugar, although basic, so in some ways this is also a lesser invasive change for the platform components
15:49 silbe dsd_: if you take the most complicated solution, yes. The wrapper script would be pretty easy and simple.
15:49 dsd_ however, sugar-activity could be moved to sugar-toolkit-gtk3 (which will be a platform requirement) if you dislike the choiec of repo
15:49 erikos silbe: but then you need to include a wrapper script in each activity
15:49 dsd_ i fail to see how moving code around (which is what my patch does) is more complicatd than changing mechanics, affecting multiple activities, requiring new code to be written
15:49 silbe erikos: like we already do for setup.py
15:50 erikos silbe: but why another one, if we do not have to?
15:50 dsd_ silbe: you did realse that my patch is entirely existing code, right?
15:50 silbe erikos: because it's cleaner, loosening the coupling between sugar and sugar-toolkit rather than reinforcing it
15:50 dsd_ minus the mainloop bit
15:50 silbe dsd_: yes, I did.
15:51 erikos silbe: to me this is not cleaner actually
15:51 silbe erikos: why?
15:51 dsd_ but we cannot run sugar without sugar-toolkit
15:51 sugar uses loads of the widgets
15:51 it is a very strong relationship that cannot be broken
15:52 erikos silbe: I don't find it a clean solution to have to put wrapper scripts in each activity
15:52 silbe dsd_: yes, but activities don't use code from sugar other than the sugar-activity script.
15:52 dsd_ silbe: ok, so lets move that script (in the form of my patch) into the toolkit, without changing its name
15:52 silbe erikos: then we should drop setup.py as well ;)
15:53 cjl dsd_: I saw the sugar-toolkit patch and wondered if it moved any strings into different PO files?
15:53 silbe dsd_: I'd have to consider the consequences again, but in general it sounds good to me.
15:54 cjl jsut thinking of how to avoid relocalizing moed strings if they already exist.
15:55 s/moed/moved/
15:55 erikos silbe: so, moving the script to the toolkit-gtk3 is fine with me as well
15:55 silbe great
15:55 erikos silbe: ok, so this one looks to be sorted
15:55 dsd_ ok
15:55 i will repost the patch after the meeting
15:56 silbe dsd_: thanks!
15:56 erikos dsd_: thanks
15:56 dsd_ silbe: will you have time to review it today if i do it immediately?
15:56 or are you wiling to trust erikos review? :)
15:56 silbe dsd_: can't promise, but I'll try to get it reviewed this week.
15:57 (i.e. either today or on the weekend)
15:57 erikos silbe: we really should move on on this one
15:57 dsd_ silbe: please..
15:57 silbe:you have had the patch in your hands for ages
15:57 erikos silbe: you have seen the patch already and it does not change anything
15:57 dsd_ i have posted it as your requested, you have reviewed it to some extent already
15:57 silbe erikos: don't try to press me. This is the first time I saw the full patch.
15:57 dsd_ i am now going to post it again against a different repo with no changes
15:58 this is holding us back
15:58 silbe dsd_: not on purpose. I only ever saw the sugar-toolkit part of it.
15:58 erikos silbe: but, you should maybe trust more the other maintainers and members
15:59 silbe: I mean, you have pointed out one part, ok
15:59 dsd_ how about if we pause the meeting while you review it now?
15:59 this review is more important than the rest of the meeting
15:59 silbe dsd_: it's going to take more than just a few minutes
15:59 dsd_ we will wait
15:59 silbe dsd_: and I have other stuff to do after the meeting
16:00 dsd_ right, but what about if we do it now
16:00 during the meeting
16:00 nobody will say a word while you review it, you wont miss anything
16:00 erikos silbe: see, it is fair to say that you have other stuff to do of course, but then maybe you should adjust your way of reviewing as well accordingly
16:00 silbe dsd_: it would still take me much longer than the meeting would have been.
16:00 dsd_ silbe: we will wait
16:01 please?
16:01 erikos silbe: the regrouping of the gtk-3 branch for the toolkit 'just' added more comments and descriptions (which is good)
16:01 silbe dsd_: ok, let's meet again in a few hours then. Say 21 UTC?
16:01 erikos silbe: but does not warrent to hold us back for so long
16:01 dsd_ silbe: so you will work on it right now, and you think it will take you a few hours?
16:02 ie a 5 hour review (estimated) ?
16:02 silbe dsd_: I will start working on it once I finished my other work, and I assume the review takes about two to three hours.
16:03 dsd_ you have other work that is more important?
16:03 silbe dsd_: yes, I do.
16:03 dsd_ i.e. that has more dependencies than this, that blocks more people?
16:04 cjl think that a man is entitled to plan his own day.  silbe has promised to get on it as soon as he can.
16:04 silbe dsd_: it has a higher priority for me, not necessarily for you.
16:05 cjl I do not know that badgering over a same day issue is an effective use of time.
16:05 erikos silbe: how can we move forward on this?
16:06 silbe: I am sorry to say, that I am really unhappy about it
16:06 dsd_ me too
16:06 and we have all the other patches in the branch
16:06 silbe dsd_: In Paris, you wanted me to continue maintaining Sugar. But if we go on like this, it's not going to work.
16:06 dsd_ and the stuff this week
16:06 erikos silbe: I absolutely respect you and that you take the time to do things right
16:06 dsd_ silbe: i agree, what you do you suggset? your slow reviews are really holding things back
16:07 and your lack of interest in prioritising something that is of great importance to sugar is a little upsetting
16:07 cjl asks everyone to take a deep breath and think about how important our common goals are.
16:07 silbe dsd_: I don't consider less than one week for a patch slow. And I already am prioritising the GTK3 work so much that I'm getting into trouble with my customers.
16:08 erikos cjl: no, worries, we just try to coomunicate our different views
16:09 silbe but as you seem to have such a strong impression of me blocking you, I suggest that you maintain sugar-toolkit-gtk3 and I'll concentrate on sugar and sugar-datastore.
16:10 dsd_ this sounds like a good idea
16:11 i think that would be a win for everyone - significantly less pressure for you, you have so many roles
16:11 and would allow us to pick up  the pace on this critical project
16:11 erikos silbe: as I said earlier, we do not want to put you under pressure
16:12 cjl It does sound like a reasonable compromise at a time when there is necessarily the dual-track of current and future-gtk3 supporting activity.
16:12 silbe erikos: honestly, from this conversation I have the exact opposite impression.
16:12 erikos silbe: as I said, I respect that you do want to do things at your speed
16:12 silbe: and I take my time as well to do reviews
16:13 silbe: but maybe you want to do it sometimes too good
16:13 and you could trust us more
16:13 dsd_ delegating is a fine skill in my eyes
16:14 silbe erikos: it's not about trust, it's about maintainable code. The commits in the sugar-toolkit GTK3 branch were making it hard to maintain the code.
16:14 erikos dsd_: that is what I would have said next
16:14 silbe: I would not have landed them like that neither
16:14 dsd_ silbe: thanks a lot for the great cleanup of those patches btw
16:14 silbe as nobody else was willing to fix them up, I stepped up to do it. But it takes time.
16:15 dsd_ anyway, lets concentrate on moving forward
16:15 erikos silbe: but I think we could have find a 'middle-nitpicky-way' that would have moved us forward equally well
16:15 silbe And now you're pressing me because I'm not fast enough to do that _and_ reviews _and_ all my other work.
16:16 erikos silbe: that is not true, I said I would fix them up us well, we met several times to do it together as well
16:16 silbe: but you wanted to order them differently etc
16:16 silbe: and that I told you, I don't think is necessary but you wanted to do it
16:16 anyhow
16:16 dsd_ yes, lets move on
16:16 cjl A key mgmt principle "Be hard on the problem, soft on the people".  I'm bothering to talk here at all because I think silee has justification to be feeling badgered.  He has calmly suggested a solution, let's focus on the problem and not the people.
16:17 erikos so just to keep the record clear
16:17 anyhow, let's move forward
16:17 dsd_ ok so
16:18 erikos: lets discuss initial steps on suga-toolkitgtk3
16:18 sorry for this dodgy keyboard
16:18 we should take saschas branch and integrate the feedback we provided by email
16:18 erikos dsd_: so we have the repository already
16:19 dsd_ and that could become master ?
16:19 erikos dsd_: yes
16:19 silbe erikos, dsd_: so we all agree that dsd_ will maintain sugar-toolkit-gtk3? Alone or together with erikos?
16:19 dsd_ together
16:19 silbe ok
16:20 dsd_ thanks a lot for being open to this
16:20 erikos silbe: yes, thanks
16:20 silbe dsd_: can you take care of updating a) the wiki and b) the MAINTAINERS file? I can do the announcement on sugar-devel.
16:20 dsd_ sure
16:20 silbe thanks
16:21 cjl silbe, I think you've proposed an elegant solution there.
16:22 dsd_ ok so, we can create master as discussed above
16:22 then create the palette patch (cleaned up etc) to be reviewed
16:22 then any other patches we have come up with in the last few days to follow the normal review process
16:23 erikos dsd_: yes, that sounds good, once we are at that point, things will be smoothen out
16:23 aything else on this?
16:23 dsd_ thats all from me, i think w can move to nxt topic
16:23 erikos the gtk3 topic i mean?
16:24 great
16:24 dsd_ the one after the gtk3 topic :) we just did that
16:24 erikos #topic current status of the development cycle
16:24 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.96/Roadmap
16:27 dsd_ still quite a while before first freeze
16:27 erikos dsd_: yes
16:28 dsd_: we did not package Sucrose 0.95.3
16:28 dsd_ a task for this week
16:28 erikos dsd_: I would like to just do that at the end of the week
16:28 dsd_: exactly!
16:29 so, I guess, let's close this meeting and get this done!
16:29 other comments?
16:29 ideas?
16:29 questions?
16:29 5
16:29 4
16:29 3.33333333333
16:29 2
16:29 i
16:29 1
16:29 silbe 0
16:30 dsd_ 32768
16:30 wraparound
16:30 or would that be 32767
16:30 erikos #endmeeting
16:30 meeting Meeting ended Tue Dec 13 16:30:16 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:30 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-13T15:00:22.html
16:30 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-12-13T15:00:22
16:30 erikos finishing with a question is good!
16:30 :)
16:30 thanks everyone - see you again next week!
16:30 silbe dsd_: I guess 65535 or -1, depending on signedness. :)
16:31 dsd_ hehe indeed
16:36 cjl dsd_: Is th etoolkit refactoring going to move strings from one PO to another?
16:36 dsd_ nope
16:37 but are you aware of the considerations for sugar-toolkit-gtk3 in general?
16:39 cjl Um, I am mostly intersted in following the strings, but I do get tha ttoolkit-gtk3 is going to be outr way of supoorting both gtk2 and gtk3.
16:39 dsd_ lets move to £sugar and i'll explain
16:39 cjl ok
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