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#sugar-meeting, 2011-11-01

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14:59 garycmartin erikos: hi
14:59 erikos garycmartin: hey!
14:59 walterbender hi everyone
14:59 erikos prepares for the development team meeting
14:59 garycmartin hi walterbender
14:59 erikos who is here for the meeting?
15:00 garycmartin raises hand
15:00 walterbender me too
15:00 erikos gonzalo_: and manuq should be here too
15:00 manuq is here
15:01 erikos let's gibe it three more minutes if anyone else shows up
15:01 marcopg might be travelling...
15:02 manuq erikos: marco started the theming port, right?
15:02 erikos manuq: benzea did, yes
15:03 manuq ok
15:03 erikos (benjamin)
15:03 topic: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]/GTK3/Development
15:03 manuq: benjamin did the old theme as well
15:04 ok, let's start
15:04 walterbender needs to update the wiki from the activity POV
15:04 erikos walterbender: yes, good point, maybe we can give it a shot after the meeting
15:05 so maybe we can start with questions, this first meeting should be about bringing up the people whoi have not been in prague
15:06 garycmartin: manuq, gonzalo_: please ask anything you are interested in
15:07 (I hope there have been good information by email and wiki page already to start with)
15:07 garycmartin erikos: I noted in one of the screen shots of a gtk3 activity, that the toolbar had text hints below each icon. Was this intended or just work in progress?
15:07 erikos garycmartin: just work in progress
15:07 walterbender garycmartin: there was no intention at this point to make deisgn changes... just get things working
15:07 erikos garycmartin: we have two main areas that are 'broken' at the moment
15:08 manuq what is the state of the theme port? there is a plan or a schedule?
15:08 erikos palettes (benjamin and marco have been working  on that)
15:08 and the theme
15:09 garycmartin erikos: Also only just realised that GTK3 drops all it's drawing/image bits, and recommends moving over to ciaro. I'll need to do that for Moon (it's been something I intended to do anyway), I wonder how many other activities may be using GTK2 drawing primitives...
15:09 erikos manuq: ben has been working on it and will continue, I presume, but help is welcome of course
15:09 manuq: and I presume needed as he is a volunteer
15:09 garycmartin: correct, walter did work on TA for that
15:09 garycmartin: he will post some help about that later
15:10 garycmartin: (should be as well in his repo) walterbender^^
15:10 dsd_ <dsd_!~dsd@gentoo/developer/dsd> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:10 manuq I wonder if there is a need to change Paint also
15:10 I will check
15:11 erikos manuq: garycmartin: yes, maybe someone can go through the activities and make alist which ones need porting to cairo
15:11 manuq ok
15:11 erikos maybe for now, just check the ones that are in an olpc build to start with
15:11 walterbender I ported Abacus to gtk-3 (with lots of benzea help)
15:11 erikos takers for that task?
15:11 walterbender and I am almost done with TA for gtk-3
15:11 erikos hey dsd_ (everything packed already?)
15:12 walterbender but I made no UI changes
15:12 garycmartin erikos: I can do some quick grep actions and see what activities I spot using GTK2 drawing.
15:12 erikos garycmartin: great, thanks
15:13 manuq walterbender: that's great news!
15:13 erikos I will grab benzea to see what he says about the theme and he has some unpushed palette code
15:13 walterbender garycmartin: I suspect that many if not all use Drawable
15:14 manuq yeah, Paint does
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15:14 garycmartin walterbender: Ouch. OK.
15:15 walterbender garycmartin: I have a pretty good handle on the transition to cairo
15:15 erikos walterbender: and performance wise you were happy, too - right?
15:15 walterbender garycmartin: the strategy is to get it to be cairo only in gtk-2 and then switch to gtk-3
15:15 erikos: well...
15:16 erikos: with abacus, yes...
15:16 erikos: but I have a concern re TA
15:16 erikos ahh, ok
15:16 walterbender erikos: TA in GNOME is very fast
15:16 but less fast in Sugar
15:17 garycmartin erikos: So a general question about activity authors intentions. Future Sugar will support both GTK2 and GTK3 for a transition period (~year). During that transition period will authors try to support both existing users (GTK2), and hold of on GTK3 work as late as feasible?
15:18 erikos did add Abacus to the repos list: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]Development#Repos
15:19 walterbender garycmartin: the idea is to branch and do future development on gtk-3 and only maintenance on gtk-2
15:19 erikos walterbender: ok, we should investigate why that is the case
15:19 walterbender erikos: give me 24 hours...
15:19 erikos garycmartin: yes, the toolkit-gtk2 will be around for ~1 year, but will only see bug fixes if at all
15:20 walterbender: heh, not that much of a rush
15:20 garycmartin garycmartin: will need to go learn how to do git branch workflow type things – have mostly avoided that complexity up to now.
15:20 erikos garycmartin: and yes, activity authors can do work and releases in the following way:
15:20 manuq so, is there a proposal on how we should do the maintenance of both branches, maybe a convention in the naming of the branches?
15:20 dsd_ garycmartin: i think thats up to the maintainer and their preference
15:21 personally i would prioritise GTK3 work and future-facing developments, leaving the previously released versions for those who dont run the new stuff
15:21 walterbender dsd_: yes...
15:21 erikos - maintainers should start there wrk by branching of the las stable release, for example Memorize
15:21 dsd_ but others might have different views and want to keep doing releases for GTK2 users for years to come
15:22 walterbender dsd_: we need to give activity developers guidence
15:22 erikos - last stable release 30
15:22 - branch of the 'sucrose-0.94' branch
15:22 - make a bugfix in 'sucrose-0.94' branch
15:22 - make a release in the 'sucrose-0.94' branch branch --> 30.1
15:23 - port to gtk3 in master branch
15:23 - make a new release ---> 31
15:23 so point releases for bug fix releases (GTK2)
15:23 and major releases for the new GTK3 stuff
15:24 garycmartin erikos: I'm also wondering about version numbers of such activities that do decide to fork development. I guess we end up with one stuck on a version number 12.1, 12.2, 12.3, while the GTK3 versions get 13, 14, 15?
15:24 erikos of course a maintainer can name their branch how they like, but I would suggest them to choose the same name
15:24 (maybe 'sucrose-0.94' branch, so it is easy for someone that looks at the branches)
15:24 garycmartin: exactly
15:25 garycmartin: happy with that versioning approach?
15:25 garycmartin erikos: so new features will end up in a bug fix version number?
15:25 erikos and yes, the git workflow and the conventions would be written on the 'port your activity to gtk3' page
15:25 garycmartin: that is dependent on the author
15:25 cjl thinks lots of activity branching is probably going to impact L10n and Pootle. . .
15:26 erikos garycmartin: maybe bugfix branch is more correct for sugar
15:26 garycmartin: if an activity author wants to put a new feature in a gtk2 and the gtk3 release he is welcome to
15:28 does that make sense?
15:28 walterbender cjl: not sure that it will have too much impact... gettext works the same AFAIK
15:29 garycmartin erikos: hmmm, so the assumption is that we generally won't add any new features for existing GTK2 folks, bug fixes for them only.
15:29 cjl walterbender: Poolte points at specific branches for POT refresh and commit.
15:29 erikos garycmartin: do you mean on the sugar platform? or for activities?
15:29 garycmartin erikos: sorry, activities.
15:29 cjl It's not a function thing, but a Poolte git thing
15:31 erikos garycmartin: well, I would not recommend it
15:31 garycmartin :)
15:31 manuq I think we should prioritize gtk3 development in order to reach the goal, there are not many hand for development
15:31 erikos garycmartin: if an author has the time to do it, up to him really
15:32 manuq: yes, espacially for the activities the core team deals with
15:32 garycmartin erikos: OK, I'm just thinking about the general dev author recommendations we'll make for this (Activity Team)
15:33 erikos garycmartin: yes, is important
15:33 garycmartin erikos: and what deployments may/will expect from activities they use (and likely maintained be folks in Activity Team)
15:33 erikos are people happy with recommending the branch name: 'sucrose-0.94' for the stable branch?
15:34 manuq erikos: I know "sucrose-0.94" is more specific than "sugar-0.94", but the latter is simpler IMHO
15:35 erikos garycmartin: I think if the new release rocks and has general advantages (including sugar goodies itself) we can recommending updating to the new platform
15:35 manuq: is fine with me
15:36 does sugar-0.94 speak to others as well?
15:36 gonzalo_ erikos, yes, would be good if all the branches are named equal if possible
15:37 garycmartin erikos: I'd go for sticking with the names as used already, I assume that is 'sucrose-0.94'?
15:37 erikos I prefer slightly to 'sucrose-0.94' because that is the name of the stable sugar-toolkit branch
15:37 cjl I'd like to avoid branching in Pootle, so hopefully people will be okay with dealing with their own backporting of Po files.  I'll keep Poolte focused on master
15:38 erikos cjl: sure
15:38 actually the pootle stuff is another good reason not to port back features (likely including new strings)
15:38 should we vote quickly for the name?
15:39 we have up 'sugar-0.94' and 'sucrose-0.94'
15:40 manuq as I'm new, I didn't knew that 'sucrose-094' was used previously, if that is the case we should continue using it
15:40 sorry for the interruption
15:40 cjl abstains
15:41 erikos manuq: http://git.sugarlabs.org/sugar-toolkit/mainline
15:41 gonzalo_ erikos, about versions, i am thinking about how will work aslo and the activity updater in actual (non gtk3) sugar
15:42 may be we need do a more specific filter to avoid breaking usuers experience
15:43 erikos manuq: i think in general sugar-0.94 works slightly better for activity authors in that it is shorter and sugar is clearer than sucrose to many
15:43 garycmartin gonzalo_: yea I'm worried about that as well. ASLO will be fine, but not the activity updater (I haven't used that in a year or so)
15:43 erikos manuq: but yeah as we have used it already and the stable branch of the sugar-toolkit will be 'sucrose-0.94', I guess this makes sense
15:44 gonzalo_ garycmartin, aslko show you the last version
15:44 erikos manuq: if an author wants to look in the git repo of the toolkit he might more likely find it
15:44 garycmartin gonzalo_: ASLO allows a developer to set what version of Sugar an activity works with.
15:45 gonzalo_ garycmartin, yes, but the users do not care about that :(
15:45 erikos gonzalo_: garycmartin: good point we need to check that, so I thin kit should be fine
15:45 gonzalo_: users or activity authors?
15:45 garycmartin Hmmm, actually… does ASLO allow a developer to release more than one activity with the same bundle identifier??
15:45 gonzalo_ erikos, users
15:46 erikos gonzalo_: if your system is 0.94 and you go to aslo it should not offer you an activity that is marked 0.96 only
15:46 garycmartin gonzalo_: If a user visits ASLO with Browse it shows them the latest activity version for their current Sugar build.
15:46 erikos but ok, we should verify
15:46 manuq erikos: let's use the 'sucrose-0.94' recomendation!
15:47 gonzalo_ garycmartin, yes?
15:47 erikos 10 more minutes to go
15:47 had the recommendation to keep this to an hour MAX so externals can prepare for attending
15:48 gonzalo_ manuq, sucrose is specific to a group of modules
15:48 erikos ok, anyone against the 'sucrose-0.94' recomendation?
15:48 gonzalo_ sugar is general
15:48 erikos, i am for sugar-0.94
15:49 erikos uff :)
15:49 gonzalo_ damn chemist! :)
15:50 garycmartin doesn't mind much either way.
15:50 erikos ok, let's vote
15:51 I think the most important thig is that activity authors go for the recommendation and that we end up with same baranch names
15:51 being consistent
15:51 if people think we have better chances to reach that with 0.94
15:51 with sugar-0.94
15:52 ...
15:52 manuq: garycmartin, walterbender, gonzalo_ your votes please
15:52 dsd_: you as well
15:52 gonzalo_ erikos, +1 to sugar-0.94
15:54 erikos forgot about the bot :/
15:54 startmeeting
15:54 forgots syntax
15:54 manuq ok, let's start again
15:54 erikos #startmeeting
15:54 meeting Meeting started Tue Nov  1 15:54:34 2011 UTC. The chair is erikos. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:54 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:54 gonzalo_ ha ha
15:55 erikos branch name: sugar-0.94 or sucrose-0.94 ?
15:55 garycmartin it momentarily confused… next version of Sugar will still be GTK3+ compatible
15:56 walterbender garycmartin: that is the hope
15:56 garycmartin so should the branch name be sugar-0.96, the last working build?
15:57 or am I very confused.
15:58 manuq ok, I'll give +1 to sugar-0.94 as the convention name for an activitie's branch that works on GTK-2, as it's simpler from the devs point of view
15:58 cjl gasry name is for the gtk2 version remaining behind
15:59 gonzalo_ erikos, the plan is move sugar module to use instrospection in 0.96 cycle?
15:59 manuq garycmartin: we are voting the convention name for the branch of activities, not for sugar
16:00 erikos #action check if ASLO supports well having different activity versions, dotted versions and major versions
16:00 cjl garycmartin: The gtk3 version just becomes master (if branched at all)  the gtk2 branch will have a recommended naming standard
16:00 erikos garycmartin: you will work for gtk3 on the master branch, no forking needed
16:00 cjl thinks he got that right
16:00 erikos garycmartin: you can fork again for GTK4 :)
16:01 garycmartin isn't the activity branch for indicating the last gtk2 compatible sugar it will run on?
16:01 erikos gonzalo_: you mean, that we access GTK3 through introspection in the sugar-toolkit?
16:01 gonzalo_ erikos, yes
16:02 erikos gonzalo_: the new toolkit already does that, there are no static bindings anymore, so we have to :)
16:02 garycmartin: the 'sucrose-0.94' will be the gtk2 branch, master will be the future branch (new features GTK3)...
16:03 gonzalo_ erikos, yeah, but sugar module, need be ported to the new sugar-toolkit
16:03 the views, journal...
16:03 erikos gonzalo_: the shell? ok...
16:03 gonzalo_: if we have time, we do yes, otherwise the shell (sugar) accesses the old toolkit
16:04 garycmartin is now positive he's very confused about branches and naming.
16:04 erikos gonzalo_: lets see how fast we move on with the toolkit porting and with the activity work
16:04 gonzalo_ erikos, ok
16:05 erikos garycmartin: I can write it up in the porting guide and show you the example in the hello-world activity, is that fine?
16:05 garycmartin erikos: sure.
16:05 gonzalo_ erikos, i have another concern related to branches, and pootle specifically
16:05 erikos #action check which activities uses a drawable which has to be replaced by cairo calls
16:06 #action write up cairo porting guide (walter)
16:06 gonzalo_: shoot
16:07 gonzalo_ erikos, right now pootle is using projects related to branches, if we create a sugar-0.94 branch in every ported activity, we will need document the developer should report to pootle maintainers
16:08 erikos gonzalo_: yes
16:08 gonzalo_ and pootle mainteiners will need create a honey094 project
16:08 and add every activity
16:08 right?
16:08 cjl gonzalo I don't think I want to do that.  I think we keep Pootle focused on master
16:09 Id someone doesn't branch, it is still pointed at the right place.
16:09 erikos gonzalo_ yes I think focusing on master is ok
16:09 cjl If someone does (and wants t orelease a gtk2 backport), they can deal with pomerge themselves.
16:09 gonzalo_ cjl, we can agree in a "no string changes" in the old branch
16:09 erikos gonzalo_ we just should tell the activity author to not port back stuff with strings
16:09 right
16:10 cjl gonzalo_  Iwould say strign changes on gtk2 branch will nto be supported in Poolte.
16:10 erikos ok, let's wrap up, we are already over time
16:10 gonzalo_ cjl, the problem will be all the user in gtk2 we will have for a few years
16:10 erikos I will work on the porting instructions after the meeting, help welcome
16:10 espacially when there are questions that come up while following the guide
16:10 gonzalo_ we have users using sugar 0.84 now (and probably 0.82 too)
16:11 cjl gonzalo_ we can discuss more after meeting
16:11 erikos and I will send it for review etc of course
16:11 garycmartin erikos: So I guess as we move an activity over to GTK3, we can also strip out all the backwards compatibility tweaks for old Sugar toolbars and suck like as well.
16:11 erikos garycmartin: yes
16:11 garycmartin: we can do the bg cleanup
16:12 ok, as noted in the mail, this will be a weekly meeting, so we will see again next week
16:12 I ant to keep the meetings short so externals can easily plan and participate
16:12 if people want to chat more after the meeting, ok, and great
16:12 walterbender weekly or biweekly ? devel team meetings inbetween?
16:13 erikos walterbender: weekly, this is the devel team meeting
16:13 gonzalo_ ok
16:13 walterbender erikos: OK...
16:13 cjl walterbender: you asre thinking alternating desgn and activ ity team perhaps?
16:13 erikos thanks everyone for attending!
16:13 5
16:13 4
16:13 3
16:14 2
16:14 1
16:14 #endmeeting
16:14 meeting Meeting ended Tue Nov  1 16:14:12 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:14 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-01T15:54:34.html
16:14 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-11-01T15:54:34
16:14 erikos gets tea for the next round
16:14 walterbender heads to lunch
16:14 cjl s ogonzxalo, I'm happy to have my thinking on Poolte challenged.
16:14 garycmartin erikos: thanks
16:14 tea and pizza here!
16:15 cjl What I am thinking is that existing older Sugar deployments have the L10n they want for the most part.
16:16 We sholul keep Pootle focused on master t okeep it simple and encourage migration.
16:16 gonzalo_ cjl, may be
16:16 dogi <dogi!~omen@> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:16 cjl What Sugar is Peru using?
16:16 gonzalo_ cjl, i want see how hard/easy is port the activities....
16:17 cjl, i don't know what are theyusing now
16:17 cjl, i am going to lunch now, can we continue later?
16:17 walterbender gonzalo: take a look at the abacus cairo and gtk-3 branches
16:17 cjl gonzalo_ I hope you know that in the end of the day, I will support what is necessary to get people the strings we can, I'm hoping for the simplest answer though.
16:18 gonzalo_ cjl, of course, i know
16:18 cjl gonzalo_ sure, bon apetit
16:18 walterbender gonzalo_: I first migrate to cairo and then to gtk-3
16:19 cjl gonzalo_ I g3enuinely welcome havign my thinmking challenged, because I'll be the first to admit that I am 'shooting from the hip".
16:20 is also typing with his thumbs apparently
16:29 I know gonzalo_ is at lunch, but I will go ahead and try to articulate my thoughts for later
16:29 The basic idea would be to have one PO file maintained under the master branch.
16:30 If the activity doesn't branch, ther eis no issue.
16:31 If the activity branches and a gtk2 version is desired, most strings should hopefully remain the same, so the master branch PO file should be usable for packaging a build of the activity.
16:32 If there are string differences between master and the gtk2 branch, perhaps the dev can hang the differing gtk2 strings in the master code in such a way that it gets picked up by POT generator, but does not really do anything in the code.
16:33 That way, the gtk2 strings would be present in the single POT and get localized without any complexity in Poolte.
16:33 The activity dev would use the master branch PO files for the gtk2 build and hopefully everything works out jsut fine.
16:34 That is my wish for how this might work.
16:34 Whether it can really work tha tway is to be determined.
16:35 gonzalo_   ^^^^
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16:41 garycmartin cjl: seems to make sense to me. This is with the assumption that a developer who makes a GTK2 bug fix release wants to pick up any new translations available – if not then they will still have the old pot files in their old branch.
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16:42 cjl garycmartin: yes
16:43 That was my earlier point tha deployments usign older Sugar releases may already have hte L10n they need.
16:44 As they will not be under Poolte control, the dev can do whatever they need t odo on th ebranched /po directory.
16:44 Ther eare suitable tools like pomerge, etc.
16:45 Whast I want to do is come to an understanding tha we do not have t ogo out of our way t osupport L10n of the gtk2 branch version.
16:45 Although I am happy to offer ad hoc suggestions of how to achieve tha with any developer that feels they need it.
16:48 garycmartin cjl: I think most developers who are focused on supporting existing users/deployments will hold off branching for a while, at least until gtk3 offers them some really exciting shiny feature they just have to include ;-)
16:51 cjl: I know that's likely not what the Development Team would want to hear, as it will mean GTK3 Sugar will not be so heavily tested with real activities for a while, and that there might be a 'last minute' rush to port some activities once GTK2 support gets close to disappearing.
16:54 cjl I suspect yo uare right, whcih is another reason to maintain focus on master
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17:13 erikos garycmartin: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]3/ActivityPorting
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17:13 erikos garycmartin: maybe this makes it a bit clearer
17:14 garycmartin: let me know if things are still unclear
17:15 has to run
17:16 garycmartin erikos: thanks!
17:16 will go read.
17:16 dsd_ erikos: please merge that into http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ures/GTK3/Porting
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17:33 manuq dsd_: I tested your browse-gtk branch, great
17:34 dsd_: browse-gtk3
17:34 dsd_: do you plan to continue working on it? or was a test case for sugar gtk-3 ? may I step into it?
17:42 dsd_ cool
17:42 manuq: please take over :)
17:42 i will give you commit access to that repo
17:43 username manuq ?
17:43 done
17:43 manuq dsd_: yes, thanks
17:44 dsd_ some other things for you to look at :
17:44 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/WebKit
17:44 manuq dsd_: yes, I'm keeping an eye on that page
17:44 dsd_ you should also take over that page and propose it as a feature for Sugar-0.96 (ask erikos about the feature proposal process)
17:44 manuq thanks
17:44 dsd_ also http://dev.laptop.org/~dsd/20110625/wkdemo.py
17:44 manuq dsd_: ok, will do
17:44 dsd_ simple app that shows what we need to do inside browse to get basic functionality going
17:45 manuq I know about the template procedure for a feature proposal
17:45 dsd_: right, erikos sent me the example already
17:45 dsd_ and http://webkitgtk.org/reference/index.html - this is the API you are working against
17:45 manuq perfect
17:49 dsd_ you will be able to remove a huge amount of browse code
17:50 webkit is so much nicer than xulrunner from an embedding standpoint..
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17:54 Cerlyn I guess I didn't get the Mozilla folks drunk enough to support us while I was there :/
17:57 manuq dsd_: I hope so
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