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#sugar-meeting, 2011-10-31

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13:45 walterbender gonzalo: how soon is the design meeting? I have about an hour between flights :)
13:46 gonzalo walterbender: should be at 15UTC, but may be we can do it before
13:46 garycmartin: is here and manuq too
13:47 walterbender checks to see exactly how much time he has...
13:48 I have about 90 minutes...
13:49 garycmartin walterbender: Hi, did you want to chair the meeting?
13:49 walterbender I could, but if I need to leave early... it would better for someone else to do it
13:50 garycmartin walterbender: OK I can run it to save a panic at the last moment.
13:50 Sascha usually joins us, but I can't see him logged in anywhere just now.
13:51 manuq: gonzalo: you two ok with a meeting now with walterbender ?
13:51 walterbender we should wait on him... but maybe we can just talk now...
13:52 gonzalo garycmartin: i am ready, and manuq will be back in a few minutes
13:53 walterbender: would be good if we can start to talk about the Journal proposal, ClaudiaU wanted to talk about this with the people from #olpc-aprendizaje
13:55 walterbender gonzalo: did you look at my mock up?
13:55 gonzalo walterbender: yes
13:55 walterbender gonzalo: I could post a patch as well...
13:55 pretty simple change to the journal... more a design issue
13:55 garycmartin: have you followed this thread at all?
13:56 gonzalo walterbender: yeah, but may be we should think about all the changes we want to do
13:56 walterbender gonzalo: of course... but most of them are orthogonal...
13:56 gonzalo: unless we are proposing an entire overhaul :P
13:56 garycmartin walterbender: yea have been following it.
13:57 walterbender gonzalo: we may want to think about it in light of the gtk3 work this weekend... but I think that the teachers would like something to experiment with sooner than later
13:57 garycmartin walterbender: what was the key need for visually exposing the extra metadata in the UI?
13:58 walterbender dsd, rgs, erikos, et al. did a lot of great work this weekend in Prague
13:58 garycmartin walterbender: Some of us have been considering an Achievement type activity for some time.
13:59 walterbender garycmartin: to answer questions about what the kids are doing, e.g., how many times did they go into their document to revise it... what tools and design elements did they use in creating their project...
13:59 garycmartin walterbender: Such an activity could leverage the extra hidden metadata to provide summary for the learners (in a fun visual way), teachers, and upstream developers
13:59 walterbender but also, my proposed solution is a general way for activities to publish activity-specific info to the detail view
14:00 garycmartin (has just emails pinged sascha)
14:01 walterbender garycmartin: I don't have any strong use cases other than the evaluation ones...
14:02 garycmartin walterbender: another meta data we should standardise on is cc license flags (but again I'd not rush to expose such data all over the UI, just agree on some standard usage).
14:03 walterbender garycmartin: would the badges show up in the Journal or only when running the activity?
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14:04 walterbender garycmartin: I would like, for example, to give special badges out for using certain TA blocks...
14:04 garycmartin walterbender: I'd +1 standardising on a set of extra (optional) metadata so that we start generating useful data and better instrumenting Sugar to automatically track more variables (number of time resumed is an easy obvious one). I don't think we have to agree where to expose the data just now, and until we start to get some, the UI side will just stall things.
14:05 walterbender: Why not display badges, cups, certificates, etc in an Achievements activity?
14:05 walterbender garycmartin: part of the mechanics is for the activity to let the journal (or some other activity) know what is worth exposing... I save lots of different metadata, but only a few fields have user-oriented info. But that would vary from activity to activity
14:05 garycmartin: +1
14:06 garycmartin: but I think there is more to it than just achievements
14:06 but we could invent an iconic language for this...
14:06 garycmartin walterbender: that way we could proof the idea out side of changing the UI designs right now. It's also likely to become clearer which metadata we might want to start exposing in the Journal/details view.
14:07 walterbender garycmartin: +1
14:07 garycmartin walterbender: 'more to it than just achievements' can you elaborate?
14:07 walterbender wants a Sísyphos badge :)
14:07 gonzalo garycmartin, walterbender: the achievements should need cross the metadata with teacher criteria.
14:07 walterbender garycmartin: I guess the question is: open ended or a fixed set...
14:08 I think there is no reason not to leave things somewhat open to activities
14:09 garycmartin Sísyphos badge, the son of Aeolus and founder and king of Corinth. Renowned for his cunning, he was said to have outwitted even Death. For his disrespect to Zeus, he was condemned to eternal punishment in Tartarus. Having a bad day?
14:10 walterbender garycmartin: that is sort of the point... I think we will want to invent things like bad-day badges...
14:10 gonzalo walterbender: ??
14:10 walterbender it is also not clear that each system will want to use the same evaluation mechanisms...
14:11 garycmartin gonzalo: apart from some we may be able to instrument Sugar with recording, it would be down to lobbying Activity authors, and the maintainers of the Achievement activity to meet with teachers criteria...
14:11 gonzalo walterbender: i think we should start with the metadata, later, with more information we willl be enabled to think in achivements
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14:13 garycmartin gonzalo: walterbender has fallen offline, hopefully will make it back in a moment
14:13 gonzalo garycmartin: the problem i see with the achivement activity is how we can define what is ok to every user (i mean to different user levels)
14:14 that is a teacher's task
14:14 garycmartin gonzalo: well some game theory will be of help, it's the same problem they have to deal with to keep players interested.
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14:14 walterbender sorry... I lost my connection
14:14 garycmartin walterbender: we guessed :)
14:14 gonzalo welcome back :)
14:14 walterbender thx
14:15 maybe some sketches?
14:15 and then we can discuss some of the other journal-related themes?
14:15 for example, there is some connection between badges and tags...
14:15 presumable both are searchable
14:16 but they are really for different purposes.
14:16 garycmartin walterbender: I think I have a folder somewhere were I was working once on Sugar design fruit badges, just playing with ideas.
14:17 walterbender 3 lemons for a really bad TA project :)
14:17 manuq walterbender: hi!
14:17 walterbender hi manuq
14:17 we've been discussing a bit already, while I am on line
14:17 garycmartin walterbender: tags are tags. Badges are generated from any available data, hidden or visible.
14:18 walterbender garycmartin: yes... both are binary where as I think some data we may want to show is not binary
14:18 gonzalo and badges are assigned by the teacher, right?
14:18 walterbender gonzalo: or earned in the context of an activity
14:18 garycmartin gonzalo: no
14:20 walterbender all of this could also show up in the Portfolio activity
14:20 garycmartin gonzalo: teacher/educators work with us to balance the Achievement activity logic. It uses that logic to display trophies, badges, cups, certificates based on it's analysis of the Journal.
14:20 gonzalo walterbender: +1
14:20 garycmartin: in many cases will be possible, but in other is no so simple
14:21 garycmartin walterbender: Portfolio, well if you star an Achievement Journal entry ;-)
14:21 gonzalo garycmartin: in particular in "open activities"
14:21 garycmartin gonzalo: There's no sane way a
14:22 walterbender I think a game should be able to award whatever badges it wants, for example
14:22 gonzalo garycmartin: for example, how can we judge how good is a draw in paint or a song played with tamtam?
14:22 walterbender but there could also be a global gamer badge
14:22 garycmartin …sane way a teacher could flag a learners activity to awards a star, badge etc. That's just asking for folks to cheat and hack making them meaningless.
14:22 walterbender gonzalo: well, one indicator is the complexity of the tools they used...
14:23 gonzalo walterbender: no really
14:23 i can press all the buttons
14:23 at random
14:23 walterbender gonzalo: you can spoof it, sure...
14:23 and when exploring, that usually happens.
14:23 gonzalo a kid will found it in 10 minutes :)
14:24 walterbender gonzalo: they can spoof anything we design...
14:24 garycmartin walterbender: activities should be able to specify a badge svg image to be shown for a given metadata award. If none is set Achievement activity would use one of it's own.
14:24 gonzalo i think the badges add a level of complexity to metadata, and should be analyzed later
14:25 but we can start with the simple games, like typing turtle, maze, etc
14:25 where we can do a logic decission
14:26 walterbender gonzalo: maze, typing turtle, can be made harder to spoof. Paint, TA, Write... that is more difficult...
14:26 that is why I think Portfolio is still relevant
14:26 gonzalo ClaudiaU is collecting what information the teachers want http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Datos_diario
14:26 ClaudiaU hello
14:26 gonzalo hello ClaudiaU :)
14:27 garycmartin gonzalo: yes lets see the value in a simple system using data we can track/generate. Lets not try to solve strong AI for analysing art and literature just now ;-)
14:27 gonzalo garycmartin: +100
14:27 we can wait to the next version :)
14:28 ClaudiaU gonzalo: I am going to edit with my team the contributions from countries.. translate everything and try to get feedback from community deployments
14:29 walterbender I am not where to go from my current proposal... are badges an extension or a replacement?
14:29 gonzalo walterbender: a extension
14:29 and a later step
14:29 garycmartin walterbender: gonzalo There are a number of default badges/awards we can generate easily for all activities. Discovery of some feature, number of entries created, number of folks collaborated with etc.
14:30 ClaudiaU as you mentioned, the Journal is the next chat because most people get stuck thinking the journal is not friendly, or is notbehaving  as it shoule be...
14:30 anything you want me to discuss with the learnig teams from countries, I am happy to discuss, but it would be nice to have one of you come to the chat
14:31 gonzalo ClaudiaU: i will be in the chat
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14:31 ClaudiaU how do the badges fit in this?
14:31 gonzalo garycmartin: i think the badges is a good idea, but does not have the highest priority
14:32 garycmartin gonzalo: so what are we talking about?
14:32 seems to have missed the point.
14:32 ClaudiaU I don't want students to work based on the badges...
14:32 gonzalo garycmartin: we started talking about metadata generated by activities
14:33 ClaudiaU badges as reward system?
14:33 garycmartin +1 for more metadata, and agree some standards for activity authors.
14:33 gonzalo garycmartin: and in my view there are not a direct relation between metadata and badges
14:33 garycmartin badges as a UI to show what a learner had done.
14:33 gonzalo garycmartin: and probably ClaudiaU have a strong argument about why not use badges :)
14:33 walterbender gonzalo: what I got from garycmartin's discussion is that we can make the presentation of the metadata a lot more fun
14:34 garycmartin gonzalo: +1 for no concrete link between metadata and badges.
14:34 gonzalo walterbender: i am not sure of doing it right and fun :/
14:35 garycmartin walterbender: +1
14:35 manuq so metadata in the journal view, badges in the Archivements activity?
14:35 gonzalo and i prefer do it right
14:35 walterbender we already have arbitrary metadata, but we need to talk about how/when to display it
14:35 how/when/if
14:35 gonzalo walterbender: yes, you ave proposed the activity publish a list of "public" metadata?
14:35 walterbender my if proposal was simply a dictionary entry for what to display
14:36 gonzalo: exactly... public might be a nice key for the entry
14:36 better than activity_data :P
14:36 garycmartin manuq: I still think (certainly for the short mid term) all of this is hidden from the UI. But that an Achievement activity can be created to view it in learner, teacher, and developer friendly ways.
14:37 gonzalo walterbender: and that information is in activity.info to sugar consumption?
14:37 walterbender gonzalo: I just had put it in the metadata
14:37 gonzalo walterbender: ahh, ok
14:37 walterbender metadata[public] = 'a list of public keys'
14:37 gonzalo ok
14:38 walterbender garycmartin: in some sense, Portfolio is just another viewer for the Journal
14:38 garycmartin: and the achievement activity could be the same...
14:38 garycmartin walterbender: Yep.
14:38 ClaudiaU I like the idea of displaying what the students has done somewhere else... it will show his learning style, and his preferences (or maybe lack of use of certain activities).. not sure about the name of the Acticity (Achievement)..
14:39 walterbender but I think we need to consider that we want the kids (and teachers) to also annotate their work, perhaps based on these data
14:39 gonzalo walterbender: +1
14:39 walterbender for example, in Portfolio, I show the Description.
14:39 maybe I should make that editable
14:40 so it really is just an alternative view of the Journal expanded view
14:40 manuq walterbender: +1
14:40 garycmartin ClaudiaU: the name Achievement just how all the games out there deal with this kind of problem. It's a very common way to allow players to gauge how they are doing, for other to see what they have been doing, to try and lead player to try and discover and try new things.
14:40 gonzalo walterbender: i think teacher feedback is a missing part of the journal
14:40 walterbender I could live with that as a short-term solution... and we only need to agree on a keyword
14:40 +1 to public
14:41 garycmartin ClaudiaU: Happy to use another name if you don't think it appropriate.
14:41 walterbender gonzalo: I agree... we could add that to Portfolio... of make an Assignment version of Portfolio
14:41 in Portfolio, the child does the editing; in Assignment it is the feedback from the teacher ?
14:42 ClaudiaU thanks garycmartin! It would be great to think with the learning teams about what the Activity should be name like
14:42 walterbender along with stickers, smilies, ...
14:42 gonzalo walterbender: i think is not so difficult to do (a teacher can have a password) and set it the first time
14:42 walterbender has about another 30 minutes...
14:43 gonzalo: I can work on some sketches after I finish my current project (TA-cairo)
14:43 gonzalo walterbender: ta-cairo! great :)
14:43 walterbender, garycmartin, manuq, can we talk about the home/school mode idea?
14:44 garycmartin gonzalo: home/school mode?
14:44 gonzalo garycmartin: i sent it in a reply to walterbender mail
14:45 walterbender gonzalo: I think two sep. home views is an easy concept
14:45 gonzalo walterbender: but is not the same....
14:45 walterbender gonzalo: I am talking about the UI element... it could drive everything else
14:46 gonzalo: in other words, if you launch an activity from the Home view, it doesn't go to thew school server... if you launch it from the School view, it does
14:46 gonzalo the idea is to enable the kid to identify what works he does with the xo is related to the school and what is his own exploration/games/music
14:46 walterbender gonzalo: the kids could override it in the detail view...
14:46 gonzalo walterbender: yes
14:47 manuq garycmartin: the idea is that a child can change to "home mode" when she don't do school stuff, for example in weekends
14:47 walterbender gonzalo: but to have to tag each item each time is a pain... we want a mechanism for a global setting
14:47 gonzalo may be home mode was a wromg word because we have a "home view"
14:47 walterbender: yes, a mode switch
14:47 walterbender gonzalo: but it is important that the mode switch changes what activities appear on the home view
14:47 garycmartin gonzalo: sounds like it's going to complicate the UI even more :(
14:48 ClaudiaU what is the idea behind home/school? protect his privacy?
14:48 gonzalo walterbender: i don't think it, why?
14:48 garycmartin thinks it's already too complicated
14:48 manuq too
14:48 gonzalo ClaudiaU: protect privacy, and avoid filling the school servers with mp3
14:48 walterbender gonzalo: one reason that, for example, Peru limits the number of activities on the machine is that the teachers don't like the clutter.
14:49 gonzalo walterbender: but that is the use of favorites, right?
14:49 walterbender anyway, I would personally love to have a simple way of swapping in and out lists of favorites
14:49 gonzalo: yes... and it could be under the homeview layout icon
14:50 gonzalo walterbender: if want work on this, i think we should tag the activities too
14:50 ClaudiaU gonzalo: so leaving it to the kid is perhaps the wrong way to go.. we may end up not looking at things that may be interesting..
14:50 gonzalo and then filter by mathematics, or media, or games
14:50 walterbender gonzalo: we already have the tag in ASLO
14:51 ClaudiaU: I see this as something soft, easily circumvented by the teacher or parents
14:51 gonzalo walterbender: yes, we should add this to activity.info
14:51 manuq gonzalo: +1
14:51 ClaudiaU I heard.. kids delete their work because they value more their MP3 than theis Scratch projects, or anyother work... so they will make the same decisions.. no?
14:51 walterbender I am not convinced we can really solve the privacy issue... but we can solve the server overload issue
14:52 ClaudiaU walterbender: what about MP3 don't do to the server...
14:52 walterbender and it gives each deployment the opportunity to lock down certain activities... a perennial issue.
14:52 gonzalo ClaudiaU: we solved part of the problem with protected activitie
14:52 s
14:53 ClaudiaU: but they can use ogg files, or videos
14:53 but yes, we need resolve this too
14:54 walterbender I am going to need to head to the gate in a few minutes...
14:54 gonzalo one problem we have, is what priorize now
14:54 satellit_ limit certain file types ie: mp3 to an external usb or usb harddrive?
14:54 garycmartin walterbender: thanks for making it to the meeting!
14:54 satellit_ saving
14:54 walterbender if you get a chance... please discuss write to journal any time
14:54 manuq I think it's impossible to know whether a video or audio is for educational purposes or not
14:54 gonzalo this cycle we will have a lot of changes, think about this
14:55 walterbender and possibly grabbing the bulletin board key or a new icon on the toolbar
14:55 manuq walterbender: have a nice fly!
14:55 walterbender thanks...
14:55 garycmartin walterbender: :)
14:55 gonzalo walterbender: bye!
14:55 walterbender hey... you guys know about the gtk3 meeting tomorrow?
14:55 ClaudiaU what about two types of server interaction: 1) backup stores everything in the journal (but large media) , runs every certain days and 2) kids_use type of backup that stores meta data, comments and tags kind of information
14:55 walterbender I think at 14UTC
14:55 garycmartin walterbender: yes, same time as today
14:55 walterbender OK... CU you guys.
14:56 ClaudiaU because we are using backup of everything to understand use, and people are already having problems with the backup activity
14:56 walterbender has quit IRC
14:56 satellit_ save only links for mp3 to back up not files
14:57 ClaudiaU satellit_: +1
14:57 gonzalo ClaudiaU: you should ask to server side people
14:57 ClaudiaU who are the server side people?
14:58 gonzalo: what do you mean?
14:58 gonzalo ClaudiaU: i don't know how is working the backup, satellit_ do you know?
14:58 ClaudiaU backups everything
14:59 Agree.. it would be great to know how backup works.. thngs such as: how often, how many copies, ect
14:59 gonzalo ClaudiaU: we can mark the media created in the xo (audio and video) to know is different than the media downloaded
14:59 ClaudiaU gonzalo: +1
15:00 I heard that the backup function gets the server full..  so I wonder about the way it is implemented
15:00 manuq me too
15:01 gonzalo ClaudiaU: ok, we should ask
15:01 manuq there is a server devel mailing list
15:01 I will join it
15:01 ClaudiaU ok
15:02 manuq http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
15:02 ClaudiaU I will like to go step by step with the learning teams because they can be so negative about many things
15:03 garycmartin fwiw there are a bunch of different ways to backup implemented. There's a couple of activities, there's the original OPLC rsync solution, and I think Dextrose implemented their own Journal school server backup process that some other folks also use… Any idea which you are using?
15:03 ClaudiaU they want a friendlier Journal, that does simple things, and serves a purpose...
15:04 and for the purpose, they have different ideas too.. not all of them agree on what that is
15:05 satellit_ can metadata be used to mark authorized audio and video? if not marked use USB storage only
15:06 manuq ClaudiaU: it's great to start having feedback from the learning teams
15:06 gonzalo satellit_: i think so
15:06 manuq: +10
15:06 ClaudiaU +100
15:06 I love to be able to connect the two worlds... so expect more
15:06 gonzalo ClaudiaU: i don't know how was before, we are relative new :)
15:07 ClaudiaU: and yes, we need connect the two worlds/languages/experiences
15:07 ClaudiaU agree
15:08 gonzalo garycmartin: are you still here?
15:08 garycmartin manuq: +1, constructive feedback is so hard to get reliably!
15:08 ClaudiaU Gonzalo, can you help me summarize this conversation, so I can invite the learning team for feedback. You can do it in English and  I will translate...
15:08 I am planning to invite people in two languages and use the "-en" room...
15:09 we'll see
15:09 garycmartin ClaudiaU: I think the translation chat bot might be broken just at the moment… They are trying to get it fixed last I saw.
15:10 gonzalo ClaudiaU: ok
15:10 ClaudiaU garycmartin: it does work somewhat
15:11 gonzalo garycmartin: next topic about the journal?
15:11 ClaudiaU I was with dogi and gonzalo.. i have been using through the week and it does work
15:13 garycmartin ClaudiaU: Make sure to give it another test, alsroot emailed yesterday about taking it offline because it was not correctly sending all messages and causing much confusion.
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15:13 ClaudiaU ok
15:14 garycmartin gonzalo: sorry I've lost track after our talk with Walter...
15:15 gonzalo garycmartin: write journal any time?
15:15 alsroot garycmartin: ClaudiaU: Google is closing his translation API for free usage, so we need to find an alternative. I've emailed to Apertium mailing list (the FOSS project for machinery translation), it might be a good possibility to synergy between two communities, and at least we will have en-es/es-en translation
15:16 will email to sugar mls after getting results
15:16 ClaudiaU alsroot: thanks!
15:16 So I shouldn't use the #olpc-aprendizaje-en?
15:18 manuq ClaudiaU: I'm afraid is not working at the moment
15:21 garycmartin gonzalo: manuq: Sorry, I think I need to tune out for a while. I will try to catch up replying to some of these topics via email later in the week.
15:21 gonzalo garycmartin: ok
15:22 garycmartin gonzalo: thanks. Glad we managed to catch Walter this week.
15:23 manuq garycmartin: thanks for your time!
15:24 garycmartin manuq: you too!
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