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#sugar-meeting, 2011-10-19

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18:57 ClaudiaU_ hello
18:58 gonzalo hello
18:58 walterbender hi
18:58 let me try to summarize where I think we are to start
18:58 there is interest in tags (automated and user-supplied) by the Learning Team
18:59 there is the possibility of activity-generated and sugar-generated tags
18:59 there are outstanding UI issues
18:59 and some backend issues
18:59 I have a simple proposal to start
19:00 to augment the tags field in the journal detail view
19:00 to leave the tags field as a place for freeform keyword entry and to drag and drop predefined tags
19:00 ClaudiaU_ correct
19:00 walterbender and to have a separate mechanism/display of program and usergenerated keyword-value pairs
19:01 the freeform field is not useful to me as an activity developer because:
19:01 ClaudiaU_ when we had the conversation this morning, the members of the community didn't really know that the tags could be use for that purpose
19:01 walterbender I need something I can parse so, for example, I can add to or change a tag value
19:02 so I would rather exploit the existing metadata dictionary
19:02 ClaudiaU_ agree
19:02 walterbender but to do so, I need a ay in the UI to display these values
19:02 gonzalo: how about I mock up something for discussion at the next design meeting?
19:03 gonzalo walterbender: yes, i think is the way to go
19:04 walterbender gonzalo: OK... I think it will be pretty simple to implement... although I can imagine lots of corner cases
19:04 gonzalo i agree with you about using defined tags and not freeform
19:04 walterbender gonzalo: but metadata['tags'] is freeform
19:04 gonzalo walterbender: yes, right now
19:04 walterbender gonzalo: and metadata['anything else'] is invisible to the user
19:05 gonzalo yes
19:05 walterbender: yes, we need improve it
19:05 i can't find the proposal we worked in edujam
19:05 walterbender so I see two different approaches: (1) make the value of tags a Python dictonary or (2) ignore it and use the metadata dictionary we already have
19:06 gonzalo: this is independent of where tags come from
19:06 ClaudiaU_ I need to understand some implications
19:06 would the tags be changable?
19:07 so imagine I create a TurtleArt project, like the one you created walterbender, and I go to the journal...
19:07 would I see those tags and be able to change them?
19:07 walterbender ClaudiaU_: I think we want to make them changeable in general
19:07 gonzalo ClaudiaU_: depends of the use we want to do
19:07 walterbender maybe some protected tags
19:08 gonzalo maybe the tags can be editable
19:08 ClaudiaU_ I think there should be ones not editabl
19:08 editable..
19:08 gonzalo and we have other metadata , like "how much time the kid used the activity " not editable
19:09 ClaudiaU_ I would like to keep the once that the Sugar Activity is going to generate
19:09 gonzalo but that is metadata, no tags
19:09 ClaudiaU_ but would the metadata be visible?
19:09 in the journal?
19:10 walterbender ClaudiaU_: I think it should all be visible
19:10 gonzalo ClaudiaU_: may be we need first define what data we are interested in generate
19:10 ClaudiaU_ agree, walterbender!
19:10 gonzalo and later define what is editable and what no
19:10 walterbender ClaudiaU_: but maybe the distinction between editable and uneditable is to be determined from a UI perspective
19:10 ClaudiaU_ gonzalo, yes, we are in the process of the defining what data in each Activity
19:10 +1 walterbender!
19:11 walterbender gonzalo: I could imagine an activity marking which tags are visible and which are editable,
19:12 in the form of another tag :)
19:12 ClaudiaU_ I just imagine that the child will be motivated to add any tag, inspired by the ones he sees (generated) and then the tags may not represent what the project really is
19:12 walterbender ClaudiaU_: remember we still have the description field and the freeform tag field as well
19:13 gonzalo ClaudiaU_: but now, the tags are not useful, because we can't filter in the journal en a easy way
19:13 if we have aa good filter using tabs
19:13 and may be using to activities like Portfolio
19:13 then the tags will be more useful
19:14 ClaudiaU_ I agree
19:14 a lot of things are not useful, even when they work because people don't know about its use
19:14 gonzalo like http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/J[…]nal_NewUI#Mockups
19:15 i found it :)
19:15 the idea of this design is do the tags more visible and useful
19:15 walterbender gonzalo: maybe we need two mechanisms: tags and keyword/value pairs
19:16 gonzalo walterbender: the metadata is already a key/value
19:16 walterbender gonzalo: yes... but it doesn't show up in the UI anywhere (except a few select fields)
19:17 gonzalo: let me put it a different way...
19:17 gonzalo walterbender: can you show me a example of key/value needed data?
19:17 walterbender in the example from TA, we want a tag for each block type a child uses, so we can monitor how complex their projects are
19:18 in the mockup, that would mean perhaps 100 tags
19:18 gonzalo: that tagging mechanism UI is not meant for that volume of tags
19:19 gonzalo: so I was thinking of an activity-specific tag field.
19:19 gonzalo walterbender: hmm, maybe is better have a complexity field, and turtleart calculate it
19:19 walterbender gonzalo: but I don't want to reduce my complexity metric to 1 value
19:20 gonzalo walterbender: i think we have a text field in the metadata, you can save the program in logo in it
19:20 walterbender gonzalo: the bottom line is that I need a structured mechanism in the journal with an associated UI
19:21 and the mockup only addresses part of that problem
19:22 gonzalo walterbender: anyway, if every activity can save any data (and you are talking about hundred of values) we will not find a way to show that
19:23 walterbender gonzalo: I think we haven't looked for one yet... so I am not ready to give up
19:23 gonzalo :)
19:24 walterbender gonzalo: I think the EduJam mockups serve a purpose, but we have other needs too...
19:24 gonzalo walterbender: yes, i understand
19:24 walterbender gonzalo: I just want to eliminate redundancy of effort if we can
19:24 ClaudiaU_ no giving ups!
19:25 gonzalo i think there are two different use cases, tags, and metadata, at times will be the same, and at times no
19:25 ClaudiaU_: we need prepare a good proposal
19:25 walterbender gonzalo: what I think I will mock up for the short-term is a way of displaying arbitrary metadata in the ExpandedEntry view
19:25 gonzalo the design team is very active and will help
19:26 ClaudiaU_ walterbender: in the case of turtleart, you are thinking a tag, per block and keep the frequency of the block, right?
19:26 gonzalo he he :)
19:26 walterbender gonzalo: perhaps an activity can set a field that says which metadata to display
19:27 gonzalo walterbender: yes, or can be a configuration in activity.info
19:27 ClaudiaU_ and only create a tag for those blocks that are parsed and that work?
19:27 what if the block are floating around with no purpose?
19:27 walterbender gonzalo: yes... there as well, but I don't know if those data are available in the ExpandedEntry view
19:28 gonzalo walterbender: ClaudiaU_ show why is more complex than only a list of values :)
19:28 walterbender ClaudiaU_: one step at a time :)
19:28 ClaudiaU_ I am already going ahead with possibilities
19:29 walterbender ClaudiaU_: the kids will be able to spoof it, but I can imagine: show me a project where you used the repeat block and finding it with a simple Journal search
19:30 ClaudiaU_ that would be great to do
19:30 gonzalo ClaudiaU_: would be good if you think in more general cases, not only turtle art. there are other activities too :)
19:30 walterbender ClaudiaU_: with what I already implemented, you can do that now :)
19:30 ClaudiaU_ yes!
19:31 I will talk to Melissa and we will have the table with all the activities and we will start a brainstorm process
19:31 hopefully other learning people will join
19:31 gonzalo great
19:32 walterbender gonzalo: are there any tickets associated with the EduJam mockups?
19:32 gonzalo: because I was going to open one and past in this conversation
19:32 gonzalo i should check
19:32 ClaudiaU_: we are in a good moment, if we want propose changes should be before Dec 5
19:33 (if we want have it in the next version)
19:33 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0[…]/Roadmap#Schedule
19:33 ClaudiaU_ will work towards that.. promise!!
19:33 gonzalo walterbender: we should prepare a Feature proposal
19:34 walterbender gonzalo: yes... but I will make a ticket as a placeholder for the moment
19:34 gonzalo: I think we want to implement both the EduJam tags and the Activity tags
19:35 gonzalo yes
19:38 ClaudiaU_ I will keep you in the loop.. we will put the team to work
19:38 with the deadline in mind
19:38 please keep me updated
19:38 gonzalo ok
19:38 ClaudiaU_ I have a doc app now at MIT
19:39 walterbender http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/3209
19:40 gonzalo ok
19:40 i saw #3207 too
19:40 walterbender gonzalo: I'll work on a mockup
19:41 gonzalo ok
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22:03 walterbender ClaudiaU_: sketch: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]:ActivityData.png
22:03 ClaudiaU_ OMG.. this is great!!
22:04 can we grab that image to inspire the work this week?
22:05 I talked to Melissa this afternoon and she is working the table, so we can put the community to work
22:08 walterbender ClaudiaU_: an activity can specify what data to show up...
22:08 a list of lists
22:09 ClaudiaU_ yes, I understand that part
22:10 if we show this example, I expect people will have a better idea of what data to imagine can be specified by that Activity
22:11 I think this is great!
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