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#sugar-meeting, 2011-10-10

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15:00 manuq hi garycmartin
15:00 garycmartin manuq: Hi!
15:01 manuq garycmartin: how are you? May we wait for Gonzalo?
15:01 garycmartin Anyone else here yet for the Activity Meeting?
15:02 manuq (yes we'll wait for Gonzalo)
15:03 manuq anyone would like to join us for Activity Meeting?
15:05 JT4sugar Just sitting in and at some point would like to help revive Write to Journal anytime option following up on a conversation with Walter
15:08 garycmartin Hi JT4sugar, thanks for sitting in.
15:09 JT4sugar Hello and appreciate the welcome
15:10 cjl manuq: FYI this is a US holiday (Columbus Day)
15:11 manuq cjl: yes, here in argentina is holiday too, we forgot that the previous week
15:12 cjl It als ohappens to be Canadian Thanksgiving :-)
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15:13 gonzalo hi garycmartin
15:13 garycmartin gonzalo: Hi!
15:13 cjl I'm thinking if one excluded all national holidays, a good part of the calendar would be blacked out :-)
15:14 gonzalo hi cjl!
15:14 garycmartin cjl: Hi
15:14 cjl hola, happy columbus day and canadian Thanksgiving to all
15:14 gonzalo i did not realize when we talked about this meeting, today is a holiday
15:15 manuq not an aniversary to celebrate for me
15:15 gonzalo yeah, hi manu!
15:15 manuq hi gonzalo!
15:15 gonzalo anybody more?
15:15 have you already started?
15:16 garycmartin no just waiting for you :-)
15:16 #startmeeting
15:16 meeting Meeting started Mon Oct 10 15:16:32 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:16 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:17 garycmartin Well I guess… Welcome to the first Activity Team meeting for some time! :)
15:17 manuq welcome!
15:17 gonzalo great!
15:17 garycmartin The last official meeting was back in the summer of 2009!
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15:18 garycmartin (we have had others, but random/informal)
15:19 So looking at the agenda page we have...
15:19 gonzalo garycmartin: yes, and we have a agenda! http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/A[…]m/Meetings#Agenda
15:19 garycmartin - Identifying Activities in ASLO that require i18n and L10n setup.
15:19 - Diff between ASLO and Pootle Honey / Fructose hosted activities.
15:19 - Call for Activity maintainers to draft text on notable updates for 11.3.0 release notes
15:20 - Review our Report (and plans) http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ember/014077.html
15:20 - Who is in the team? We need do plans according to who can work in it.
15:21 I didn't add any items myself as I wanted to see suggestions other had.
15:21 … but if there is one that's on my mind just now it's
15:22 cjl I'm not really in the team, but I was the one who put those suggestions there :-)
15:22 garycmartin - Clarify 'core' activities (fructose/honey/olpc builds/dextrose/etc) make sure we keep an eye on them
15:22 cjl The second point came from somthing dsd said on IRC
15:23 gonzalo cjl, before we go to the second point
15:23 garycmartin Any other items folks think we should raise today?
15:24 cjl not trying to move it along, jsut pointing out source
15:24 gonzalo ok
15:24 i think is ok for a first meeting
15:25 garycmartin OK then, lets dive right in (I'm sure w'll have some others once we get going):
15:25 #topic Identifying Activities in ASLO that require i18n and L10n setup.
15:26 cjl: could you give us a quick run down of this one?
15:26 cjl I placed that there, so I will say my intent is that the Activity team actively engage in promoting i18n and L10n.
15:26 Through a variety of manes
15:26 means
15:27 One idea would be to identify really popular ASLo activities that are not currently set up for L10n
15:27 Diff between ASLO and Pootle Honey / Fructose hosted activities
15:28 I think a spreadsheet would do it and then some poking (over an extended period of time) to add more and more L10n ot activities.
15:28 That is pretty much my concept for tha tpoint.
15:29 garycmartin cjl: makes sense, I might skip the spreadsheet though ;-)
15:29 gonzalo i was thinking in all the fructose/honey classification is not very useful anymore
15:30 cjl garycmartin: Whatever works, I would jsut like othe aActivity team as active promoters fo i18n and L10n.
15:30 garycmartin cjl: I'd like to think this might fit a little with my item about establishing the 'core' activities
15:30 gonzalo garycmartin: +1
15:30 garycmartin gonzalo: +1 on the  fructose/honey classification not being very useful
15:31 cjl I think something like it has some utility, not entirely sure th ecurrrent breakdown is what it needs t obe.
15:31 garycmartin gonzalo: Fructose boils down to Activity maintainers needing to agree to the Sugar release cycle.
15:33 gonzalo garycmartin: yes, but in fact, with all the activities included by default in the olpc build we need apply a stabilization period
15:33 and the other distros use the olpc build as base
15:33 garycmartin gonzalo: +1, but it's just that the maintainer has made no official commitment to do that.
15:34 cjl No one responded to http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ember/033514.html about a Frcutose "freeze" set in git or pootle.
15:35 gonzalo garycmartin: well, the maintainer at one point in the history :) i am pretty sure a lot of the activities changed maintainers ....
15:35 garycmartin gonzalo: Yea :)
15:35 cjl That would be a practical distinction between Fructose and Honey, but no one has spoken up.
15:36 garycmartin gonzalo: also new things are being added to shipping builds without other changes to the workflow.
15:37 gonzalo yes
15:38 garycmartin cjl: so you're suggesting maintainers branch their git rep?
15:38 gonzalo i think, in the context of l10n, would be great if the translators know what are the activities included by default
15:38 cjl garycmartin: That would be the point of a frozen set.  Fix a "last known good" set fo glucose and fructose
15:39 wit hthe underlying vchanges in glucose, at somepoint, an impt activity is going to get broken.
15:39 garycmartin cjl: ASLO allows us to mark compatibility, is that not good enough?
15:39 cjl It happened for Fructose 0.84
15:40 garycmartin: not for L10n
15:41 If the POT changes (as they do) and we keep updatign he l10n, how do you go back if we don't have a frozen POT.
15:41 gonzalo branching all the activities would add a lot of work to maintainers and translators
15:41 garycmartin cjl: I know for sure that I could not manage releasing multiple branches for the activities I maintain. I'd never get any other work done :-(
15:41 cjl gonzalo: yes, I understand, but what else makes a true differrentiation btween a fructose activity and a hony activity.
15:42 I'm not necessarily advocating creating all that work, as long as the consequences ar eunderstood and accepted
15:42 gonzalo cjl, i think from a practical point of view, the only alternative is coordinate freeze periods
15:42 cjl And it makes much mor eof a difference to OLPC than anyone
15:43 freeze periods are good from a snapshot build, but unless you freeze a set of the source and POT, there is no backfilling in langs that were not complete at snapshot time.
15:44 gonzalo cjl, we did this cycle a lot better than in 11.2.0
15:44 cjl e.g. Armendian started out wanting a Sugar 0.84 build
15:44 Armenian
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15:44 cjl gonzalo: I agree,
15:45 garycmartin cjl: does your recent language pack revival help here?
15:45 walterbender: Hi
15:45 gonzalo garycmartin: not ever
15:45 cjl garycmartin: no, the lang-packs change and refresh right along with the POT
15:46 gonzalo cjl, but one user can update the activities and use the lang packs
15:46 is no so difficult
15:47 the lang packs are a great tool, we need tweak it a little
15:47 cjl, i think we can add a "user" optative parameter to deal with non olpc installations
15:47 cjl Guys, I swear I am not trying to advocate the creation of a lot of work,  I just want to discuss the possible consequences of not doing that work.  If they are acceptable, then so be it.
15:48 It is easier for me not t obranch frucotse in Poolt eas well.
15:48 It is easier for me not to branch fructose in Poolte as well.
15:48 gonzalo cjl, yes, may be we need document the process needed to the users
15:49 garycmartin cjl: I think we all know we have a painful 'red flag' day or two coming up if we are to move Sugar forward, and I doubt we have enough activity developer time to have them make dual releases for past builds.
15:50 cjl garycmartin: I'm just advocating some thought about possible contingencies for tha tday
15:50 garycmartin cjl: yes I understand.
15:50 cjl One idea is a frozen "last known good" glucose/fructose pair.
15:50 Branching is a PITA in Pootle too, multiplied by all of you activities :-)
15:51 walterbender garycmartin: let's see what the Prague meeting brings in terms of potential Flag Days...
15:52 garycmartin walterbender: yes, good point.
15:53 cjl that would be good.  I just would hate tp hit that flag day and say, damn, if only we had created an 0.94 branch of Fructose, we'd have a stable situation to fall back on.
15:53 garycmartin OK should we move on?
15:53 cjl yep
15:54 gonzalo +1
15:54 garycmartin #topic Diff between ASLO and Pootle Honey / Fructose hosted activities.
15:54 cjl garycmartin: Technically that was a sub-point of promoting i18n and L10n
15:54 One method for doing it being tha spreadsheet you want t oskip :-)
15:55 garycmartin cjl: you said this was something dsd mentioned…. Ah ok :-)
15:55 cjl Sorry, second point by dsd was release  notes
15:55 garycmartin #topic Call for Activity maintainers to draft text on notable updates for 11.3.0 release notes http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Release_notes/11.3.0
15:55 cjl yes, that is a dsd request, and a reasonable one 9IMHO)
15:56 gonzalo ok, i started http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Rele[…]11.3.0#Activities but a little help would be great
15:56 only the most important changes
15:57 garycmartin cjl: Yes, agreed. Is this a list of bugs fixed, or new features? I never seem to get to all the features I want to add so I only have dull bug fixes.
15:57 cjl garycmartin: I think just  a few lines of what impt has changed since last OLPC build.
15:57 gonzalo are important changes for the user
15:58 cjl I'd ping dsd about what he's looking for.
15:58 garycmartin cjl: gonzalo OK, good, 'user facing changes'
15:58 cjl garycmartin: +1 I think that captures his intent
15:58 gonzalo garycmartin: yes
15:59 cjl And really only for those activities in the build.
16:00 garycmartin #action Activity maintainers to update http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Rele[…]11.3.0#Activities with any user facing changes in their activity since the OLPC 11.2.0 release
16:01 gonzalo if a native english speaker can do a review, is appreciated
16:01 :)
16:01 garycmartin gonzalo: Will do :)
16:01 gonzalo thanks!
16:02 garycmartin #topic Review our Report (and plans) http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ember/014077.html
16:03 gonzalo garycmartin: maybe we can change the order and check first who is in the team and later talk about plans?
16:03 garycmartin It's probably a little long to read now (unless you've already read through it before)
16:03 gonzalo garycmartin: we can talk about short term plans
16:05 manuq about the UI review, I think some things spotted in our toolbars redesign
16:05 garycmartin gonzalo: I think we need to mail shot the folks listed on http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/A[…]ity_Team/Contacts and see if they are still interested. There are a fair few names I don't recognise there.
16:06 gonzalo yeah
16:07 then we can do a call to next meeting, in two weeks
16:07 garycmartin gonzalo: yep.
16:07 gonzalo with the specific proposal of discuss plans for the next months
16:07 cjl garycmartin: I consider myself an "ex officio" who sits in on meetings to whinge about i18n and L10n :-)
16:08 gonzalo and inviting to possible new members
16:08 cjl :)
16:09 garycmartin: the timing would be good, because we will be near 11.3.0
16:09 garycmartin gonzalo: Inviting is a tough one...
16:10 gonzalo may be inviting to the maintainers of the actual core activities?
16:10 or maybe we need define first what are the core activities and the criteria to inclusion?
16:11 garycmartin gonzalo: we could also ping past Activity developers directly, but if they are interested they'll be on sugar-devel and will already be seeing such emails.
16:12 gonzalo: (we did email many past developers when we migrated activities over from laptop.org, but had very few replies, mostly folks wanting to hand over maintenance).
16:14 gonzalo: having an active maintainer was a fairly critical part of the criteria to inclusion ;-)
16:14 gonzalo garycmartin: +1
16:15 garycmartin: then, what you think if in the next meeting we talk about this criteria and prepare a proposal of "core activities"
16:16 garycmartin gonzalo: Unfortunately many activities are written as medium term projects, there's no really intent on longer term maintenance once the initial few releases are out (aka student projects).
16:16 gonzalo garycmartin: yes
16:17 and there are times when maintainers change jobs, ar other real life activities and need stop
16:17 garycmartin gonzalo: we do get some great things (Physics is a good example), but it usually take other team members to pick them up.
16:17 gonzalo yeah
16:18 paint is another example
16:18 manuq yes :)
16:18 garycmartin OK...
16:19 cjl garycmartin: Is there some way of creating incentives to be part of a "rescue" squad that takes on abandoned activities?
16:19 gonzalo cjl, i think we can't rescue all the activities
16:20 garycmartin So, next meeting (two weeks) we look at least going through the short term goals, and having emailed the folks on the contact page directly to gauge their interest?
16:20 cjl gonzalo: no, I guess the othe relement would be a list of activities worthy of rescue.
16:20 gonzalo garycmartin: +1
16:20 cjl: i agree
16:21 garycmartin: another important point: we need a plan to the change to gtk3
16:21 and probably guidelines
16:21 garycmartin cjl: The Open Source mantra of 'let a thousand flowers bloom' means you have to let the vast majority dry up and die :-( That's where certain 'walled gardens' can take a different approach (with perhaps lest wastage and more focus).
16:21 gonzalo this was not in our plans, but will hit us
16:22 garycmartin likes to think the Activity Team can cultivate a small patch of flowers, with a small wicker fence rather than a stone wall ;)
16:23 manuq garycmartin: +1
16:23 gonzalo garycmartin: you are a poet :)
16:23 but i agree with the idea
16:24 cjl BTW, The AbiWord folks have made some real progress in their migration and I have extorted additional help with Write in exchange for taking on some L10n admin responsibilities for their PO files.
16:24 garycmartin gonzalo: plan to gtk3 and introspection. Yea. I'm hoping for Prague to help lead the way there!
16:25 gonzalo would convince martinlanghoff to send him to prague :)
16:25 garycmartin I hear the beer is good ;)
16:27 #action ping contributors on the http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/A[…]ity_Team/Contacts page to gauge interest and invite to the next meeting (two weeks)
16:28 OK. Any other business for today?
16:30 gonzalo garycmartin: no for me
16:30 JT4sugar Not today but can you all put on your thinking caps on how Write to Journal anytime might be incorporated in your work
16:31 garycmartin JT4sugar: We did cover this in Design Team Meetings some time back if I remember
16:31 cjl garycmartin: congrats on accomplishing #4 of your short term goals "Re-start Activity Team IRC meetings."
16:31 garycmartin JT4sugar: I'm sure we might have some mockups
16:32 JT4sugar: We can add it to the Design Team agenda for next week!
16:32 JT4sugar garycmartin, In speaking with Walter it has gone somewhat dormat and for Sugar and literacy issues it could be a big step forward
16:33 garycmartin, When are the design meeting scheduled? Same time because you are alternating weeks is that correct?
16:34 manuq JT4sugar: yes
16:34 JT4sugar Thanks!
16:34 garycmartin JT4sugar: (if I remember we wanted to add it at the Sugar level to make sure it was available as widely as possible in activities, e.g. in both the Activity Frame palette, and as a standard toolbar item in the place 'Keep' used to be)
16:34 cjl: re:completing #4, thanks! :-)
16:35 JT4sugar garycmartin, Walter recently was talking about a possible addition as a keyboard shortcut which would pop into activity description page
16:36 garycmartin JT4sugar: Yep, +1 from me on that.
16:36 JT4sugar garycmartin, Appreciate you putting on agenda
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16:37 cjl garycmartin: Another idea for an agenda sometime is a bug sweep day in Trac.  Probably many old bugs that may be stale.
16:38 garycmartin cjl: yes fair point. I try to sweep mine from time to time, but I know there are others out there.
16:38 OK, well thanks everyone for attending. See you here same time next week for the Design Team meeting, or in two weeks for the next Activity Team meeting!
16:38 manuq real help in all activities will be excelent, and a consistent shortcut / help button
16:39 garycmartin manuq: +1, we can add that to next weeks Design Meeting.
16:40 JT4sugar Thanks All! Have A Good day!
16:40 garycmartin #endmeeting
16:40 meeting Meeting ended Mon Oct 10 16:40:26 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:40 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-10T15:16:32.html
16:40 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-10-10T15:16:32
16:40 garycmartin Thanks folks!
16:40 gonzalo enjoy holiday!
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