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#sugar-meeting, 2011-09-30

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15:00 raffael Hello icarito
15:00 icarito hi raffael
15:04 i guess walterbender is busy at mexico city?
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15:06 cjl icarito: Will you chair the meeting?
15:07 acaire11 <acaire11!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:07 icarito i think we have a quorum, cjb bernie alsroot ?
15:07 alsroot hi all
15:08 acaire11 hello all, this is laura from perú
15:08 cjl hello laura acaire11
15:10 icarito alsroot: seems there's only you and me from slobs at the moment, bernie, cjb?
15:12 alsroot: do you know what we do then? do we start a meeting without quorum and in case there are motions, we email them? it would've been nice to get feedback from the others
15:12 (btw the board can vote over email)
15:12 or do we postpone?
15:13 alsroot icarito: I guess we can discuss topics we have right now anyway
15:13 cjl icarito, ar etheir specific proposals on the table, or is mor eabout hearing from people?
15:14 raffael I was asked for a follow-up from last week. That is why I am here.
15:14 icarito cjl: there is a specific proposal from raffael for SL Germany, we were waiting to hear from his talks with erikos etc, and peru wanted to discuss SugarCamp Lima 2011
15:15 alsroot: i'll start meeting so we have a record
15:15 #startmeeting
15:15 meeting Meeting started Fri Sep 30 15:15:10 2011 UTC. The chair is icarito. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:15 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:15 icarito note we don't have a quorum today present so we can discuss and if specifics come up we can vote over email
15:15 raffael: thank you for following up
15:16 raffael: how did are your efforts going? :-)
15:16 #topic SL Germany
15:16 garycmartin <garycmartin!~garycmart@2.24.253.216> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:16 raffael Unfortunately it is a bit frustrating: Simon was not available for discussion
15:17 means: no news.
15:17 icarito raffael: is this blocking your efforts?
15:17 raffael definitely
15:17 cjl Simon as in erikos?
15:17 icarito is there a workaround? cjl erikos=simon
15:18 raffael I will keep on trying
15:18 cjl Then I think you need to cut erikos a little slack, he is in the middle of a release
15:20 raffael O.K. I will try. Maybe I have something to report next week
15:20 icarito cjl: its not very nice when one's efforts are blocked by someone else - raffael sorry there is such a process atm
15:21 raffael: maybe over email this can be discussed, maybe write to him and cc slobs to see if we can help
15:21 cjl icarito: I'm jsut saying that it is important to take into account that erikos is understandably very busy releaseing Sugar 0.94 over thepast week
15:21 icarito cjl: absolutely, erikos's work is very important
15:22 raffael: but so is yours!
15:23 raffael Thanks. I will send him another email this weekend. Is there a timeline for his release?
15:23 cjl http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0[…]/Roadmap#Schedule
15:23 icarito i think the release happened yesterday
15:24 cjl The tarballs are jsut rolling out
15:24 raffael Then chances are good for me this weekend. I will try.
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15:25 icarito raffael: whatever you manage to agree may be a model for other regions where more than one SL might emerge
15:25 raffael Exactly this was my idea
15:26 icarito growing pains ;-)
15:27 looking at meeting agenda at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/O[…]ght_Board/Minutes
15:27 ok lets discuss a bit peru then?
15:28 #topic peru strategy and sugar camp 2011
15:28 #info Sugar Camp 2011 scheduled for Nov 18th, 19th at Escuelab, Lima, Peru
15:29 acaire11 well, we are planning on building a new image for peru during the sugar camp
15:30 we need some help
15:31 alsroot acaire11: what kind of help, could you elaborate
15:33 acaire11 from sugarlabs we need technical assistance, we would like to assemble a team capable of this
15:33 wernerio icarito: Hola Sebastian, saludos desde Santiago.  Is there more info on the Peru's Sugar Camp?
15:34 acaire11 wernerio: https://sites.google.com/a/som[…]ucarcamplima2011/ this is a temporal site
15:35 icarito wernerio: wenas ;-)
15:35 acaire11 basically, there is a new government in perú
15:35 alsroot #link https://sites.google.com/a/som[…]ucarcamplima2011/
15:35 acaire11 alsroot: thx
15:36 basically, there is a new government in perú
15:36 and so the door is now open for the local lab for the first time
15:37 our proposal to them is to update machines before the next educational cycle starts
15:37 cjl acaire11: The idea is to produce a volunteer-developed image as an alternative to the OLPC Peru image?
15:37 acaire11 cjl yes
15:37 cjl Or are you working wit hOLCP Peru to get them to adopt some content, etc.
15:38 alsroot acaire11: you can contact w/ Pablo Flores to share his experience, he took part in Sugar Camp in Montevideo, I guess icarito should know how to contact
15:38 acaire11 there will also be an additional content element, we have named "digital citizenship"
15:38 icarito the ministry is a big institution and several departments have manifested interest to participate, especially the muticultural side
15:39 acaire11 alsroot: yes, we have
15:40 cjl Practical question: Will this image need to be signed by OLPC in order to be used?
15:40 I a mnot sure fo the locked/unlocked status of Peru's XO laptops
15:41 icarito cjl: laptops are locked but open for request of developer keys, so this is the workaround in case we don't get them to sign
15:41 cjl ok
15:41 acaire11 alsroot: he has join throw AC, still we need SL technical support
15:41 icarito now if we build a great image with support for native languages and in collaboration with the ministry, they will have good reason to sign it
15:41 cjl yes
15:42 Have you guys worked wit hOSBuilder at all?
15:43 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OS_Builder
15:43 icarito cjl: i will be in charge of the technical team, I havent worked with osbuilder yet, this is why I need help - i'm thinking of bernie_ / bernie, alsroot , tch , m_anish , I don't know who else can help with this
15:43 acaire11 this may be the initial step to build a solid relationship with the deployment heads in the government
15:43 cjl ok
15:43 icarito i need to figure this out in advance as I'd like to integrate an image with what the content, translation and dev teams produce continually during the event
15:44 cjl I have a sense that there have not always been great relationships between OLPC effort and volunteers, but showing value-added is a good way t oget taken seriously.
15:45 icarito we are working on the list of people we need to engage in these teams, of course you would be invaluable for the translations team cjl
15:46 cjl icarito: I commit to making preparations in advance on Poolte and weorking on glibc locales, absolutely. attendance in person is not 100% sure.
15:46 acaire11 also, we would appreciate some help from the marketing team
15:46 alsroot icarito: from tech pov, having a new image is not a problem (at least I didn't face problems for my own humble exp., and for sure, I can help w/ an image) -- but the main issue, I guess, is signing. I abs. duno how it works on org. level..
15:46 acaire11: did you contact w/ Marketing Team coordinator for that?
15:47 icarito #info most machines in peru still are with image 767 (remember the launch icons at the bottom...?) -
15:47 #info there is a partial update to an os860 based version called "sugar 8 peru" - based on sugar 0.84
15:47 bernie oops, slobs meeting now?
15:48 alsroot acaire11: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/M[…]tacts#Coordinator
15:48 bernie sorry, i hadn't read my personal mail yet
15:48 acaire11 alsroot: not yet, I needed you guys to be informed in advance, since we are looking for a 100% of SL support on a press release
15:48 icarito hi bernie! welcome ;-)
15:49 bernie icarito: i'm glad to help out with the osbuilder and its intricacies :)
15:49 icarito bernie maybe you can come help us in peru building a community produced image? its a great opportunity
15:49 alsroot acaire11: not sure for others, but for me it will be useful to have a list of, at least common, points how SL can help. so we can start particular doing
15:50 acaire11: could you prepare this list and share it?
15:50 bernie icarito: i don't have any vacation time at the moment, but maybe later in december?
15:50 icarito alsroot: I will work on this from the technical side, thank you for your help - a secondary goal would be to do a TOAST image with the same content/translations but the main goal is an image for the XOs
15:50 acaire11 alsroot: yes #action prepare list of point how SL can help
15:51 icarito bernie: maybe I can write to your ED to send you, I promise to have you online all the time ;-)
15:51 alsroot #action prepare list of point how SL can help
15:51 icarito bernie: he has helped us in the past
15:51 bernie: its a strategic point in time
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15:52 alsroot icarito: having TOAST on a XO, that should be a challenge.., there are bunch of intrenal details in OLPS's image for fereoda
15:53 meeting <kokecontreras-es> Sebastian good morning!
15:53 <icarito-es> Hi kokecontreras - to go to the meeting where we all write "/join #sugar-meeting"
15:53 <icarito-es> this is the channel of self-translation
15:53 kokecontreras <kokecontreras!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:53 meeting <icarito-es> is a record of what we discussed in http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]eeting/2011-09-30
15:54 cjl icarito: I will send a detailed plan for L10n preparations, including some questions that will need to be answered to somosazucar list.
15:54 icarito alsroot: not TOAST on XO but toast for all other cases not XO
15:54 cjl: thank you very much your efforts are very much appreciated, you are getting famous around here ;-)
15:54 cjl :-)
15:55 acaire11 cjl: will you be willing to coordinate the translation marathon?
15:55 alsroot icarito: ok, than it shouldn't be a problem. when it will become more clear (what sugar version, what pathces, etc), ping me, I can contact w/ quidam to coordinate this effort
15:55 icarito cjl: our past methodology has been doing translations on paper first but this time we are open with more time and preparation
15:55 cjl acaire11: remotely if not necessarily in person.
15:56 icarito: I will provide some options to choose
15:56 icarito also more infrastructure, a better location, etc
15:56 alsroot: yes would be nice to involve quidam in this process
15:57 cjl If you can instaal virtaal, it is my suggested off-line PO editor (internal translation memory)
15:57 icarito alsroot: are you back in russia or still in latam?
15:57 bernie icarito: using fedora on the xo and trisquel everywhere else seems like a very good idea
15:57 cjl but spreadsheets work fine too
15:57 alsroot icarito: will be back at Feb 1
15:57 icarito bernie: yes I'm excited :-D
15:57 bernie icarito: this way you leverage all the integration work already done by others
15:57 walterbender <walterbender!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:57 icarito alsroot: back to russia or back to latam?
15:57 cjl hello walterbender
15:58 walterbender sorry I missed the meeting... connection problems
15:58 alsroot icarito: nope to russia, until Feb, I'm in .py
15:58 bernie icarito: how long would i have to stay if i come? i can promise at most 10 days
15:58 cjl haven't missed it all yet
15:58 icarito hi walterbender! we started a discussion hope you don't mind, its at http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]eeting/2011-09-30
15:58 kokecontreras Hello icarito y acaire11
15:58 acaire11 we would love to host you all here in perú
15:59 hello koke :o)
15:59 icarito bernie: the event itself is only two days but you are welcome to stay as long as you want!
15:59 walterbender icarito: glad the discussion wasn't block by my connection problem
15:59 icarito alsroot: from .py maybe we can hope to bring you as well?
15:59 bernie icarito: ah ok if it's shorter then i can certainly afford it
15:59 acaire11 we have accomodations in escuelab for 4
16:00 icarito #info escuelab are our home base, hosted international volunteers etc
16:00 kokecontreras I'm coordinating with the General Directorate of Intercultural Bilingual Education and rural
16:00 icarito #link http://escuelab.org/
16:00 kokecontreras to have a technical team for translation
16:01 icarito kokecontreras is one great part of the team, coordinating the methodology / education team for the event
16:01 cjl kokecontreras: I would like to talk to them about preparations for a L10n marathon, particulaly glibc locales
16:01 acaire11 koke is leading the relationships with the local government
16:02 cjl koke, we should chat a bit after the meeting (or by e-mail).
16:02 icarito cjl: your written spanish is very good, btw!
16:03 cjl icarito: lightly tweaked google
16:03 kokecontreras There are very good technical readiness of the DIGEIBIR
16:03 cjl My spoken Spansih is abysmal :-)
16:03 bernie icarito: yo estoy bastante analfabeta en español
16:03 kokecontreras ok let's talk after the meeting
16:03 icarito ok wrapping up the topic, SL Peru has requested assistance in assembling the technical team for the preparation of an os image and from marketing team for a press release
16:04 acaire11 you all can come and practice a little bit!
16:04 kokecontreras My English is sponsored by Google Translator, it is very easy and friendly :-)
16:04 icarito wrt to techincal efforts, I'm coordinating and help from bernie would be the absolute best, as well as alsroot who has requested a detailed list to start working
16:05 bernie icarito: nice! onr question: will we try to target other deployments as well, or just peru? (i'm ok either way, it's a resource decision after all)
16:05 icarito bernie: at the moment peru is the goal but its a good starting point
16:06 bernie icarito: ok. i have to return to work now, but i have a thousands questions to ask you
16:06 icarito: would you be online later?
16:06 cjl bernie  Ican tell you tha tthe prep for indig lang L10n will be applicable elsewhere.
16:07 kokecontreras Peru needs a display of urgent development. We need to sensitize the government
16:07 icarito great i will love working with you - if you want we can voice some time, that should clear things up
16:07 kokecontreras is urgent and necessary
16:07 icarito bernie: yes I will
16:07 be online
16:08 acaire11 kokecontreras: we are getting the technical help we need :o)
16:09 bernie icarito: i prefer written communication when discussing technical things, but we could talk on the phone to plan my trip there
16:09 icarito ok i think that's all for now on this topic, thanks cjl, bernie and alsroot for your commitment to help! .5 million children will appreciate it
16:10 bernie -> lunch
16:10 acaire11 there are other objectives for our local lab, but the sugarcamp is our main start point
16:11 thank you all
16:11 icarito walterbender: i think we already spent the 1hr we scheduled, do you want to take over if there are more topics? otherwise I think we can wrap up for now?
16:12 walterbender the workshop here needs my attention, so let's continue next week. I'll read the log
16:12 cjl http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/O[…]ght_Board/Minutes  The uncovered items can carry forward
16:13 Further review of team reports (Bernie) and SLOB election 2011 (Walter, LFaraone)
16:13 icarito ok then, thanks kokecontreras acaire11 cjl wernerio bernie and walterbender !
16:13 3...
16:13 ...2...
16:13 1...
16:14 #endmeeting
16:14 meeting Meeting ended Fri Sep 30 16:14:00 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:14 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-30T15:15:10.html
16:14 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-09-30T15:15:10
16:14 cjl will be hanging around to continue chat with kokecontreras
16:14 icarito forgot to include alsroot in the thanks, sorry!
16:14 raffael bye from Berlin! See you next week.
16:14 icarito oh and raffael !
16:14 see you then, good luck!
16:14 raffael Thanks!
16:15 jt4sugar has quit IRC
16:15 cjl So kokecontreras and acaire11 Ther eare some decisions to be made in preparation for L10n efforts.
16:15 raffael has quit IRC
16:16 cjl The key decision is which languages (and in great technical detail) which langauge ISO-639 codes) will be worked on.
16:17 manuq_ has quit IRC
16:17 icarito cjl: i can discuss these details from the techincal side and Koke can be our liason to the translation teams
16:17 cjl From talking to Amos Batto, I believe lang-quz Quechua (Cusco-Collao) and lang-quy Quechua (Ayacucho-Chanka) should cover about 80% of Quechua speakers in Peru.
16:18 Aymara is trickier because there are only three ISO-639 codes, but native speakers may recognize more varieties than that.
16:19 Or as Amos has taught me, I should say Aru and not Aymara. . .
16:19 icarito cjl: we had initially discussed focusing on just one variant for the event but need to make a decision soon
16:20 cjl, kokecontreras these questions we need to ask edgar (aru team lead) and irma (quechua team lead).
16:20 cjl The reason that picking the ISO-639 codes makes such a big difference is tha tis how the computer understands which language you are using, whcih gets to the idea of glibc locales, a somewhat technical item tha tshould get worked on in advance.
16:21 icarito cjl: you mean these locales don't exist in glibc? does this complicate things much?
16:21 cjl I've done a little work with Amos batto on a quz_PE glibc locale, http://lh.2xlibre.net/locale/quz_PE/ but it is by no means complete.
16:22 icarito, an unofficial list of existing glibc locales is http://lh.2xlibre.net/locales/
16:24 The official repo is http://sourceware.org/git/?p=g[…]5a8786208;hb=HEAD
16:24 icarito ok so if you want I can write to amos+irma+edgar+cjl and koke asking these questions - btw does one qu locale fall back to the other or do we need to replicate translations?
16:25 cjl fail over is typically to English, but  Ithink you might be able to configure in XO settings.
16:25 for now, It is easy to copy.paste identical strings or I can do bulk merges.
16:25 icarito cjl: we need to lighten technical details about glibc and locales, ISO codes etc when discussing this with language experts who might not know much about techincalities
16:26 cjl icarito, I've been think about how to do that.
16:26 kokecontreras I'm with Edgar Quispe for translations in Aymara
16:26 cjl One thing is to aks the questions needed (e.g. list of days of week, list of mionths of year, etc.) without getting into how they ar eused.
16:26 icarito cjl: basically lets tell them they need to decide what language variants we need to have ready for them and what it entails
16:27 cjl: +1
16:27 kokecontreras: is he there with you?
16:27 cjl icarito, the first question is t ochoose among the three Aymara codes, I will prepare tha as an e-mail to somosazucar.
16:28 or we can discuss now
16:29 kokecontreras I asked that we coordinate actions to begin the preliminary work
16:29 icarito cjl: if kokecontreras is with edgar now, he can ask him - he is the language expert - or maybe he can suggest we bring this up with the direction of intercultural bilingual education and rural or whatever they are called DIGEIBIR
16:29 cjl http://fpaste.org/7w7v/ look at tha tlink
16:30 kokecontreras Edgar from SomosAzucar involved and this is compounded by people DIGEIBIR
16:31 Edgar is willing to lead as a member of SomosAzúcar
16:31 icarito kokecontreras: cjl pasted this link - its a list of Aymara variants - we need to decide which we will use for the translation - cjl will then work on having the translation system ready for us
16:31 kokecontreras: the link is http://fpaste.org/7w7v/
16:31 cjl http://fpaste.org/L8AJ/ adds commetns from Amos on the problem wit hthe Aymara (Aru) codes).
16:31 icarito kokecontreras: tell edgar that we welcome his effort and are very excited to have him with us on board again
16:32 kokecontreras Edgar is also very emotional, sensitive and willing to start the action
16:33 cjl icarito: You realy should try to get Amos Batto of http://www.runasimipi.org t ocome for the L10n (and ask him whoe else migh tbe able to help).
16:34 It is unfortunate that we have t onarrow our choices down to thos ewith IWSO-639 codes, bu tit is a practical matter to make it usable on a computer.
16:34 icarito kokecontreras, cjl another issue is where the laptops are deployed, what variant of Aru is used
16:34 cjl icarito: yes
16:35 icarito cjl: irma of runasimipi.org will be coordinating the quechua team but we need to invite Amos as well, +1
16:36 kokecontreras There are laptop in Aymara?
16:36 cjl So, the choice of ISO-639 code is key as a first step.
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16:37 icarito kokecontreras: no, i meant the deployed laptops in aymara regions - what aymara variant they use in those regions so that we can decide the ISO language codes that we will use
16:37 cjl kokecontreras: Ther wer eonly very few tanslations uploaded to Poolte for Aymara and they did not distinguish between variants.  I do not know if Sdenka had more than was uploaded
16:38 icarito cjl: there were a bunch of translations on paper that we are coordinating to integrate before the event
16:38 kokecontreras Work with Aru. It is most advisable. Do not forget that Edgar has been a member of the Academia de la Lengua Aymara in Peru
16:38 cjl Ther are a few strins here, http://translate.sugarlabs.org/ay/  but we should not continue working on that until we create a new Aru project with a three-letter ISO-639 code (to be more specific).
16:39 For tha treason, I removed empty PO files, but I will creat enew Aymara project when you have chosen codes
16:39 kokecontreras That will have to work. Therefore, there must be a previous encounter for translators. At least two meetings in the morning and afternoon.
16:39 icarito kokecontreras: tell them there are 3 ISO codes for Aru - "ay/aym" Macro - "ayc" Central - "ayr" Sur
16:40 kokecontreras: from the techincal side we need to decide which one we will use
16:40 cjl icarito: and the problem is tha ay and aym refer t oa "macrolangauge" and not a specific variant, so unless we use aym in a way tha is not intended, we only have ayc and ayr
16:40 kokecontreras On this platform we work with Edgar in the previous marathon http://translate.sugarlabs.org/ay/ was very good and friendly
16:41 icarito kokecontreras: yes, cjl is the administrator of this platform
16:41 cjl kokecontreras: We will set up a version that contains the strings in Spanish too, to help you.
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16:42 icarito ok maybe its best we bring this up topic by topic with the specific actors cjl
16:42 cjl look at http://translate.sugarlabs.org/quz/ as an example
16:42 meeting <icarito-es> koke, there are several codes for Aymara and were using a generic that we should not use
16:42 cjl http://translate.sugarlabs.org[…]ew_mode=translate
16:42 meeting <icarito-es> but one of the two central or south
16:43 cjl Shows bot henglsih and spanish string, wit hroom to enter quz string.
16:43 meeting <icarito-es> respectively and c or ayr
16:43 kokecontreras Ideally, use "aym" that identifies the language more clearly
16:44 cjl kokecontreras: Unfortunately AYM is a group name for all versions of Aru
16:44 I am sorry that thsi is so complex and frustrating, it is not my doing.
16:45 I am just trying to help you to understand the restrictions and challenges so tha tyou can make the best choices
16:46 kokecontreras What options are left? if "aym" is a category
16:46 cjl ayc - Southern Aymara
16:46 ayr - Central Aymara
16:46 icarito kokecontreras: here are the details: http://fpaste.org/L8AJ/
16:47 "The ISO codes for Quechua and Aymara make no sense. This mainly due to the fact that the SIL (Summer Institute of Linguistics) created the codes and they didn't have a very good knowledge of the dialectal variations. For instance, in Aymara they divided Aymara into Bolivian and Peruvian Aymara, whereas the best study of dialects by Lucy Briggs in 1976 found that: "
16:47 cjl The probalem, as Amos explains it is tha the people making the codes have it wrong.  maybe with help from the Peru govenment, (working wit hthe evidence Amos Batto hasd) we can get that chang3ed.
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16:48 cjl But that will take some time.
16:49 kokecontreras In the Aymara no variants. It is a single language variant spoken in Peru, Bolivia, Chile and Argentina. With its dialects in each region (EQuispe)
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16:49 icarito cjl: ok maybe we should keep using AYM until we clear up the code confusion engaging the ministry itself with ISO
16:50 cjl So we need to do the best we can for now.  We could possibly use aym (knowing that it means something speciifc besides ayc or ayr) , but only if we plan on fixing i tlater.
16:50 If we know tha th epeople are speaking ayc or ayr, we shoudl use thsoe.
16:51 icarito, Most langauges aren't this much toruble. :-(
16:51 icarito cjl: aparently like amos said those codes don't make much sense to aymara speakers
16:52 cjl icarito: yes,  I only know what I learned from Amos, this must be a local decision.   I am just trying to give enough information to make a good choice among too few options.
16:53 And it is an important choice that you have to live with, at least for a while.
16:53 kokecontreras Peruvian Aymara linguist and founder of the Peruvian Academy of the Aymara language says is right aym
16:54 cjl kokecontreras: okay, then I will set up aym
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16:55 kokecontreras I leave. It was a pleasure talking to you through Google Translator. Edgar Quispe Chambi Greetings our dear Aymara who is ready for action.
16:55 icarito_ sorry my battery died
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16:55 cjl We will talk more on somosazucar lsit
16:55 kokecontreras La seguimos... (We follow ...)
16:56 5, 4, 3, 2, 1
16:56 0
16:56 out
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