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#sugar-meeting, 2011-08-29

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15:00 garycmartin gonzalo: manuq: Hi. Design Meeting time?
15:00 manuq hi garycmartin!
15:00 garycmartin Hi manuq, I take it Walter can't make it today.
15:01 manuq garycmartin: yes
15:01 gonzalo ok garycmartin
15:01 manuq garycmartin:  let's wait for gonzalo an we can start
15:01 oh here he is
15:02 garycmartin :)
15:02 #startmeeting
15:02 meeting Meeting started Mon Aug 29 15:02:10 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:02 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:02 garycmartin So, lot's of nice icons I see landing in activities :)
15:03 erikos is lurking too
15:03 garycmartin Shall we start with Walter's cog badge issue?
15:03 erikos wants to add tabs in browse onto the list
15:03 garycmartin waves to erikos
15:03 manuq erikos: hi!
15:03 erikos: good
15:03 erikos hi manuq and garycmartin
15:04 ohh, and we need to decide on the value of the alpha in the search
15:04 manuq garycmartin: ok let's start with the cog issue
15:04 erikos and that one, yes ;p
15:04 sees that everything is in good hands ;p
15:04 garycmartin #topic Cog badge colouring issues for clones
15:05 gonzalo garycmartin: i like the badge in gray and white
15:06 garycmartin gonzalo: grey and white _all_the_time_ ?
15:06 gonzalo yes
15:07 garycmartin #info the cog badge looks bad when overlaid on an icon without user colours as white fill is transparent and the cog outline gets clobbered by the icon detail behind.
15:08 erikos garycmartin, did you make sketches how to solve that?
15:08 garycmartin gonzalo: I'm not so keen. I'd like it to pick up user colours when needed like the rest of the icon.
15:08 erikos just seen one of Gary's mails
15:09 manuq what are the implicances of changing all the icon to gray and white instead of gray and transparent?
15:09 garycmartin erikos: yes I mocked up white on grey fill, and grey on white fill to see which was most clear (at the time I didn't quite follow the issue Walter was having working around the transparent implementation)
15:10 manuq: good question, was going to ask that myself :)
15:10 manuq: One issue would be if we ever allow changing the desktop colour/pattern at some point in the future.
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15:11 manuq garycmartin: Walter already proposed that as a solution number 2 in his email
15:12 garycmartin manuq: Another might be that some of the Journal palettes would have glaring white cogs in cloned activities (rather than the grey outlines on black). I'm not 100% sure of the code path for how these get added so it might be avoidable?
15:14 manuq: solution to no 2? Hmmm, I missed that…
15:14 manuq garycmartin: oh and now I see Walter also sent a patch to use white insted of transparent
15:15 garycmartin manuq: yes, white instead of transparent. But I'm not sure where else than the home favourite view that code gets called.
15:15 manuq garycmartin: I also don't know
15:17 garycmartin Hmmm, just looking at the 'Anything' filter icons in Journal, the icons are actually rather a mix… Mainly black stroke with white fill.
15:17 erikos neither
15:17 garycmartin, yes, this never has been done fully correctly :/
15:18 gonzalo garycmartin: the icon is modified to add the cog
15:19 manuq garycmartin: yes that's a thing to change
15:19 gonzalo garycmartin: the favoritesview see a normal icon
15:19 garycmartin Anyway, regarding the cog. I was just starting to add the cog shape as a mask over the original icon, avoiding the need for explicitly filling with a given colour. It'll just be an example to see if Walter can apply the badge using a mask (a little dance with the svg xml I think).
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15:20 garycmartin That way it can use the fill/stroke entity colours, with no detail bleed through from the activity icon behind.
15:21 Does any one not like the idea of the cog picking up the entity colours like the rest of the icon?
15:22 (if technically feasible)
15:22 erikos garycmartin, no, I am ok with the cog picking up the color
15:22 manuq garycmartin: me too
15:22 erikos if it is nicely visible
15:22 manuq I think it is nice to get all the icon colored
15:23 gonzalo i remember the other badges are in black and white....
15:23 manuq (no mixing)
15:24 gonzalo: all icons shoud be made in two colors, in the xvg they are marked as variables
15:24 s/xvg/svg
15:24 gonzalo i know manuq....
15:25 i think this badge is a additional information
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15:26 garycmartin My call against using a static grey white colour for the cog is that it adds visual noise, and almost looks like a function you might be able to click on. Now if indeed the badges were being applied live by Sugar (looking for some activity.info 'I have been hacked on'), and you could access the cog element in some way to invade a source editor or some developer type function, then I'd say making it UI grey (or black & white) would be a good move
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15:27 garycmartin s/invade/invoke
15:27 gonzalo garycmartin: i see your point
15:28 garycmartin: but the badges are not used in this way in sugar also
15:29 garycmartin gonzalo: fair point
15:31 manuq ok
15:32 so I will test the patch Walter sent that changes transparent to white
15:33 garycmartin just looking at the badges as we currently ship them...
15:35 Only two we are using is grey outline star with white fill for favourite access points, and grey outline square with white fill and grey lock for secured APs.
15:35 gonzalo http://dev.laptop.org/~gonzalo/favorite-view.png
15:37 this ^ is the favorites view with the icons generated with walter patch
15:38 garycmartin just wishes we were not locking different colours (grey/white) into activity svgs. So gonzalo does you new home search effect look OK with them? How about when you hold the alt key for start new, or a combination of both?
15:38 gonzalo garycmartin: with alt key, all is in the same gray
15:39 with search the alpha looks ok
15:39 (for me)
15:39 manuq for me too
15:40 erikos: how do you find the alpha in the icons while searching in the home view?
15:40 gonzalo http://dev.laptop.org/~gonzalo[…]s-with-search.png
15:40 erikos manuq, I would make it smaller
15:41 let me see the value I posted
15:41 garycmartin erikos: You wanted 0.15 I think
15:41 erikos garycmartin, thanks, yes
15:41 garycmartin, I think it differentiates better
15:41 garycmartin vs. my 0.33 on an XO-1, and gonzalo 0.2 :)
15:42 erikos garycmartin, the 0.33 was about the startup animation, right?
15:42 gonzalo i think we must put a random value!
15:42 :)
15:42 erikos I see those differently
15:42 garycmartin erikos: 0.33 I understand is _also_ now used in the startup animation.
15:42 gonzalo: random value on each boot!
15:43 gonzalo yes 0.33 is in the two
15:43 garycmartin: +1
15:44 erikos garycmartin, right, I meant I would do: 0.33 in the bootup and 0.15 in the search
15:44 garycmartin erikos: I suggested we split the difference as we are each looking at different screen hardware, but the patch had landed with 0.33
15:44 erikos garycmartin, do you have a recent build installed?
15:45 garycmartin I have gonzalo's patch applied to the current olpc release on my XOs (0.92.2 I think?)
15:45 manuq I like the current value
15:46 garycmartin (actually gonzalo kindly send me the actual files to replace)
15:47 erikos: Perhaps we need a display gamma preference for you ;)
15:47 gonzalo i don't have a strong opinion, and is a "ad eternum" debatale topic :(
15:47 garycmartin only half joking.
15:48 OK back to cog badges.
15:48 erikos ok
15:50 garycmartin I think I am out voted, and we land nasty hardcoded colour values inside our lovely entity fill and stroked icons. And hope we don't cause too much mayhem when the white/grey icon shows up elsewhere in our UI (i.e. palettes). Actually gonzalo could you look at a few palettes where the activity + cog icon will show up?
15:52 gonzalo http://dev.laptop.org/~gonzalo/palette.png
15:52 garycmartin gonzalo: OK that looks good, better than I expected. How about in the Journal 'About' filter?
15:53 gonzalo http://dev.laptop.org/~gonzalo[…]-view-palette.png
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15:54 gonzalo http://dev.laptop.org/~gonzalo/detail-view.png
15:55 garycmartin: this ^ ?
15:56 garycmartin gonzalo: No, at the top of the Journal there is a drop down 'Anything' activity filter, next to the star filte in the toolbar.
15:58 gonzalo http://dev.laptop.org/~gonzalo/journal-filter.png
15:58 manuq looks good!
15:58 garycmartin gonzalo: thanks.
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16:00 garycmartin gonzalo: OK, so the one case that is not too hot is in small when the activity icon is white and on a black palette background. The grey around the cog makes it look like a fuzzy blob rather than a sharp cog shape. Most noticeable in your http://dev.laptop.org/~gonzalo[…]-view-palette.png shot for the Empezar nuevo item.
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16:02 manuq garycmartin: do you think we may remove the stroke and just use the cog fill?
16:02 gonzalo garycmartin: i think is a problem of scaling not of color
16:02 erikos and it is the same gray as the emblem in the neigborhood view, right?
16:03 gonzalo people, i need finish now :(
16:03 see you later
16:03 garycmartin manuq: No, the white cog teeth will just disappear into the background icon details, especially noticeable in an icon like Words.
16:03 gonzalo: bye!
16:03 manuq garycmartin: you are right
16:04 gonzalo: good bye, see you later
16:04 garycmartin Well shall we just land it as it seeing an grey and white works in the majority of cases?
16:04 (land it as it)
16:04 manuq garycmartin: +1
16:05 garycmartin erikos: ?
16:06 erikos garycmartin, well, it has landed already ;p
16:06 garycmartin, I mean the colored version
16:06 garycmartin erikos: ;)
16:06 erikos garycmartin, but yes, is fine with me to change it to white and grey
16:06 garycmartin, originally, I actually thought that as being the best option
16:07 garycmartin, so fine with me, just check back with walter I guess, to make sure
16:07 tabs...
16:07 manuq ok, next topic, browser's tabs?
16:07 garycmartin erikos: so we have currently landed the coloured version, that is transparent when the icon is grey + none.
16:08 sure
16:08 #topic Browser tabs
16:08 erikos garycmartin, yes, in the latest build is the colored version with transparent when the icon is grey + none.
16:08 garycmartin erikos: thanks, understood.
16:08 manuq re tabs: I did a list of the things erikos required in his email
16:09 * sugarize close button
16:09 * style the coloring of the tabs
16:09 * the text of the tabs do not elipsize
16:09 * pages with no title show small, inclickable
16:10 those are the issues, erikos?
16:10 garycmartin manuq: Also how we create a new tab.
16:10 erikos garycmartin, yes - good point
16:10 manuq garycmartin: yes
16:10 silbe we already have a button to create a new tab
16:11 garycmartin Do we use a toolbar icon (as we do currently), or loose vertical space and always show the tab strip with a + icon in it.
16:11 silbe it's just disabled for versions of cairo that we think are broken (i.e. cause crashes)
16:11 erikos silbe, but it takes space and I think like firefox is doing works better
16:11 manuq erikos: +1
16:11 garycmartin erikos: we have less space than regular desktops?
16:12 Especially those new non XO laptops at 800x480!
16:12 erikos garycmartin, the url entry is very small atm
16:13 garycmartin erikos: agreed, very small.
16:13 erikos garycmartin, that is why moving the reload/stop button to the entry itself was already a win
16:13 garycmartin, and I think another button removed would be great
16:14 garycmartin erikos: Yes another button removed would be nice...
16:14 silbe erikos: BTW, have you tested the reload/stop change with a touch screen? (I can't because Browse doesn't work on my XO-1.75, some xulrunner libs issue).
16:14 erikos silbe, I have no touch screen
16:14 manuq either
16:15 woul like to see touchscreen in a xo
16:15 silbe erikos: then you should get one :-|
16:15 erikos in any case, lets stop on topic: tabs
16:16 s/stop/stay
16:16 garycmartin just noticed in the current latest olpc release that the tabs are disabled (I assume due to cairo issue).
16:16 erikos so I would do:
16:16 - have always one tab open
16:17 - at a second small tab that has a '+' button
16:17 - where you could add another tab
16:17 cjb garycmartin: hey, did you ever send me an address for a touchscreen machine?
16:17 erikos - the tab has a 'x' for closing
16:17 garycmartin cjb: yea, same day we chatted last, did I get spam filtered?
16:18 manuq erikos: +1 for me, it would be a great improvement
16:18 garycmartin cjb: was hoping to take it to the Paris Camp if it's here in time.
16:20 erikos: All sounds good. I just want us to be sure that we are 'happy' to permanently loose some vertical space.
16:20 erikos garycmartin, sure, I think that is what we have to live with
16:20 manuq erikos: the plus icon will need to fit on the current tab's height
16:20 cjb garycmartin: Seems like it, though I thought I remembered seeing it in my inbox.  :/  Mind resending?
16:20 erikos garycmartin, if we get tabs in, let's expose them
16:21 cjb We'll ship it 2/3-day, so it'll be there in time.
16:21 erikos garycmartin, or remove the feature all together
16:21 cjb, me too?
16:21 cjb erikos: if we send one to you today, shall I use the after-Sep-1 address?
16:21 hm, it might first try to be delivered on the day before
16:21 manuq wants touchscreen also :P
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16:22 garycmartin erikos: FWIW I think Apple are also going this route with the next version of iOS5 Safari (dropping the Opera like thumb view for tab view, though they may well have a 'show tabs by default' preference hidden in Settings for folks wanting a simple experience).
16:22 cjb garycmartin: ah!  I found it
16:22 garycmartin: look like you e-mailed martin instead and he forwarded it
16:22 silbe erikos: outside the XO universe "wide-screen" is rather popular, so trading horizontal for vertical space isn't necessarily a good thing
16:23 garycmartin cjb: arrgh! I thought it had quite a long list of cc's to make sure I had everyone covered :)
16:23 erikos silbe, but we are not outside of the Xo atm
16:23 manuq erikos: what about putting the star/favourite icon inside the url entry, on the left?
16:23 erikos cjb, let me think what makes more sense
16:24 cjb erikos: I could just ask Wad to wait two days and then send it to the new address
16:25 silbe erikos: we certainly are. Sugar is shipped by several mainstream distros and there's also SoaS.
16:25 cjb or I could send two to Gary and he could give it to you in Paris ;-)
16:25 erikos cjb, yeah, that might be best, I am definitely in the new house after saturday
16:25 cjb, so maybe just send it off friday, or next monday
16:25 cjb, or that ;p
16:25 cjb erikos: ok, please remind me on fri/mon
16:26 erikos cjb, ok, great will do, thanks
16:26 silbe, but it is not our main target
16:27 garycmartin cjb: While I think about it, I don't have access to a serial connected to un-brick, I'd mentioned that to Martin (he was going to include on I think), but not sure if I mentioned it in my follow up email.
16:27 erikos manuq, yes, thought about that myself, already
16:27 silbe erikos: (snide reply skipped - let's just say I disagree we shouldn't worry about anything other than XO)
16:28 erikos silbe, I did not say we shouldn't worry
16:28 silbe, terminal has tabs, too for example
16:29 silbe erikos: then what did you say? I seem to have misunderstood you.
16:29 erikos silbe, just skip it
16:29 garycmartin erikos: manuq: I see the favourite star in Browse as quite an important feature, as it is the place to drive the collaboration feature for sharing pages between children doing research.
16:30 silbe erikos: skip what?
16:30 manuq garycmartin: true
16:31 garycmartin: do you think that if we put the star inside the url entry, it will be less accesible?
16:31 garycmartin manuq: yes, and less noticeable, we also loose the help hint (I think?)
16:32 erikos silbe, I just don't see the argument why I should not put a tab in browse because there are wide screen users that might have an issue with that
16:32 silbe, and I just wanted to skip that discussion in order to advance
16:32 manuq garycmartin: on the other hand, it adds the meaning that you are starring that url
16:33 silbe erikos: ok, got it now.
16:33 erikos garycmartin, manuq other ideas than having the tab visible by default?
16:34 garycmartin erikos: nothing leaps to mind :(
16:34 manuq erikos: I like tabs always visible even if there is just one, because the activity feels the same always
16:34 erikos garycmartin, re safari: they hide the tabs feature, yes
16:34 manuq, yeah, there is some truth to that
16:35 and actually, we do not loose space compared to old toolbars, right?
16:35 (old-style toolbars)
16:35 manuq right
16:36 garycmartin erikos: No current Safari always shows one tab by default (likely also why iOS5 will go the same way).
16:36 erikos garycmartin, ahh, ok, I might have an old version then
16:37 I posted as well the example what is done on other devices os'es
16:37 with several windows
16:37 (which we could see as running several browse instances)
16:38 garycmartin I think always showing a tab is the only obvious way forward just now.
16:38 erikos but to do that smoothly in Sugar would be rather complicated, imho
16:39 silbe erikos: where? I only see the firefox screenshot on http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ugust/032859.html
16:39 erikos silbe, no screenshot, only describing
16:39 silbe ah, ok
16:39 manuq erikos: about the elipsize, Terminal does that well in its tabs, right?
16:40 silbe #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ugust/032862.html description of how other browsers handle tabs
16:41 erikos manuq, hmmm, not sure, but yes we could check
16:41 has only 5 mins left
16:42 I can look at the code and see what is doable
16:42 manuq erikos: take me into account if you need the + and x icons for tabs
16:43 garycmartin erikos: I guess it's really about what is the common workflow we expect from our users. We could place the + tab button in the View secondary toolbar next to the fullscreen button and the show/hide bookmarks bar (oooh, anyone notice it doesn't have a help hint).
16:43 erikos manuq, great - thanks
16:44 garycmartin are we agreed on always showing at least one tab at the cost of some vertical space?
16:44 erikos garycmartin, hmm, do you think people will find that?
16:44 garycmartin erikos: no I don't...
16:44 erikos heh
16:45 one tab always sounds fine to me (as the best solution for now)
16:45 manuq +1
16:45 garycmartin +1
16:45 erikos and the other points would be, the '+' tab right
16:45 and the 'x' for each tab
16:46 manuq +1 for me on both '+' and 'x'
16:46 erikos and ellipse to have a standard size per tab
16:46 garycmartin erikos: I'd be happy with the + next to the last tab so it is more closely related (and far from the Stop icon).
16:47 erikos garycmartin, right, that is what i meant
16:47 garycmartin +1 for the 'x' to close tabs
16:47 erikos garycmartin, so basically like in firefox
16:47 (or now safari)
16:48 garycmartin erikos: Safari put's it on the far right edge of the screen, but I don't really ever use it (I always option click URLs to get new tabs).
16:48 erikos garycmartin, ok
16:48 garycmartin, I think right next to the last tab works nicely
16:48 garycmartin erikos: But Apple don't have there close icon over on the right just above it ;-)
16:49 erikos hehe
16:50 ok, so sounds we have agreement to get things done
16:50 other questions will come later during the work I guess
16:50 garycmartin #agreed always show at least one tab, understanding that it is at the cost of some vertical space vs. more space for the URL location input
16:50 erikos thanks for all the feedback!
16:50 has to run
16:50 garycmartin erikos: thanks for joining us!
16:51 manuq garycmartin: I have updated the toolbars catalog and did some notes about it
16:52 garycmartin manuq: thanks, yes I've had a quick skim through
16:53 manuq garycmartin: how do you find the tasks here: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Manuq/11.3.0#Tasks  ?
16:53 garycmartin looks
16:55 cjl manuq: TamTamSuite has been rolled out with imporved L10n
16:55 manuq cjl: yes that's old
16:55 need to update that
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16:56 garycmartin manuq: what were you thinking for the + FotoToon badges?
16:56 manuq garycmartin: I think we should use the simple plus that appears in other parts of Sugar
16:57 garycmartin manuq: OK
16:57 manuq garycmartin: only stroke of 3.5 pixels
16:58 also, what do you think about removing the space between the activity button and other tools in Implode?
17:00 garycmartin manuq: +1 on removing the space between the activity button and other tools in Implode, should all be left aligned (except Help and Stop)
17:00 manuq good
17:01 garycmartin manuq: didn't realise Log and Jukebox had lost their activity titles!
17:01 manuq they don't have the subtoolbar
17:01 garycmartin: was any consensus about that?
17:02 garycmartin Perhaps some confusion about the 'don't create journal entries for some things' (I am of the opinion everything should  create Journal entries).
17:02 manuq garycmartin: ok I will contact the maintainers and see if I can add the activity toolbars back
17:03 garycmartin +1 That would be great.
17:03 manuq good
17:04 garycmartin manuq: were folks in agreement that Measure should be using the microphone icon rather than the lips icon?
17:04 manuq garycmartin: and I will use the new journal badge in the export icons for labyrinth
17:04 garycmartin: I didn't attend a discussion for that
17:05 garycmartin manuq: Labyrinth, fab thanks (BTW who is the maintainer at the moment, used to be me)
17:06 manuq: lips are being used in a couple of cases for text to speech, rather than sound input device, I think was the argument.
17:06 manuq garycmartin: I see
17:07 garycmartin: last commit for Labyrinth from a humane (not pootle) is from Jorge Saldivar
17:07 garycmartin manuq: thanks
17:07 manuq garycmartin: but I don't know if he is the maintainer
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17:08 manuq garycmartin: thanks for your feedback in my notes
17:08 garycmartin manuq: I know Bernie got me to hand it over to someone because he wanted to rush a feature through for a deployment (that I was not 100% behind), but I can't remember who it was ;-)
17:09 manuq garycmartin: :-)
17:09 garycmartin manuq: It's gonzalo working on the Browse save to journal icons?
17:09 manuq garycmartin: anything else you want to discuss?
17:09 garycmartin: I don't know
17:09 garycmartin: he was working on the ones for Write
17:10 garycmartin manuq: The silly thing is that I believe the edu ministry decided not to officially use it any way and they went with burning the disk/cpu/memory by installing a VM Java and using a non Sugarized Java app. Oh well :)
17:10 manuq garycmartin: woops!!
17:11 garycmartin manuq: Write, oh yes sorry. Have the screen shot here.
17:12 manuq garycmartin: the file extensions look very small on the XO screen
17:12 garycmartin: but there is the tooltip with the same text
17:12 garycmartin manuq: How much do you hate HTM as an abbreviation for HTML. I always used to really offend me when I used to see it (a Microsoft 8.3 naming thing I think)?
17:13 s/I/it
17:13 manuq garycmartin: he he, I don't like it also
17:14 garycmartin manuq: Will you try the same PDF, PNG lettering for the new Labyrinth icons?
17:14 manuq garycmartin: yes I was going to follow that design
17:15 althrough it doesn't make me very happy
17:15 garycmartin (that is why I was asking, as we have similar acronym named file types else where we need to show in other places)
17:17 manuq garycmartin: sorry I'm running out of time
17:18 garycmartin manuq: Looking at the icons I did for Labyrinth, I'm not sure gonzalo's icon text is _that_ much smaller. A little, but not a huge amount. Perhaps some size tweaking to maximises the space for 3 characters before we use it in other places?
17:19 manuq: Many thanks for the meeting today, think we've got through a reasonable amount.
17:19 #endmeeting
17:19 meeting Meeting ended Mon Aug 29 17:19:36 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
17:19 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-29T15:02:10.html
17:19 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-08-29T15:02:10
17:19 manuq thanks garycmartin!
17:20 garycmartin Enjoy the rest of your day :)
17:20 manuq garycmartin: OK, I will play with the text on the icons before including in other places
17:20 garycmartin: I've seen your 3D characters some time ago
17:20 garycmartin manuq: lol :)
17:21 manuq garycmartin: I should talk you about my animation project another day
17:21 :)
17:21 have a nice day!
17:21 garycmartin manuq: That work (web site) is pretty old, I feel even older :)
17:21 manuq: Catch you later!
17:22 manuq garycmartin: see you later, bye!
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