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| 14:17 | silbe | m_anish: need to pick up some supplies, might be late for the meeting. sorry. |
| 14:53 | (back) | |
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| 16:06 | m_anish | silbe, is there a design team meeting here? |
| 16:07 | silbe | m_anish: nop, no Design Team meeting today |
| 16:07 | m_anish | silbe, ok, i'll be back in 5 mins, can start then, i'm back after a long day out :/ |
| 16:09 | silbe | m_anish: ok |
| 16:16 | m_anish | silbe, ok me ready |
| 16:17 | silbe, do you want to talk abt dx3 releasing first :) | |
| 16:19 | silbe | m_anish: ok, let's get started |
| 16:20 | m_anish | I think we had covered all bases, right? /me : frozen rpm, /you : resource indicator |
| 16:20 | can we test one last time and release? | |
| 16:20 | silbe | #startmeeting |
| 16:20 | meeting | Meeting started Mon Aug 22 16:20:40 2011 UTC. The chair is silbe. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 16:20 | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting | |
| 16:20 | silbe | 18:17 < m_anish> silbe, do you want to talk abt dx3 releasing first :) |
| 16:20 | 18:20 < m_anish> I think we had covered all bases, right? /me : frozen rpm, /you : resource indicator | |
| 16:20 | 18:20 < m_anish> can we test one last time and release? | |
| 16:21 | m_anish: can you remind me what the state of NetworkManager was. Does your latest build include the fixed version? | |
| 16:22 | m_anish | I think it did, since I added the nm(fixed) version to the dx3 repo...and it picked that... |
| 16:22 | silbe | m_anish: I won't push my patch to add ShareTerm, BTW. It's broken and at least one of the issues doesn't have an obvious solution. |
| 16:22 | m_anish | i'll double check it by testing again |
| 16:22 | silbe | m_anish: ok, good. |
| 16:23 | let me check the bug tracker. I think there was another major bug... | |
| 16:24 | m_anish: do we have sources for the accessibility related rpms by now? Or do we consider breakage of accessibility support not to be a release blocker? | |
| 16:25 | m_anish | I don't consider it a release blocker |
| 16:25 | silbe | ok |
| 16:25 | m_anish | wasn't aware of the missing rpms needed by accessibility, though |
| 16:27 | silbe | m_anish: then you didn't test thoroughly enough ;) |
| 16:27 | m_anish | didn't test accesibility :/ |
| 16:28 | silbe | #link https://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/2802 |
| 16:28 | you did test it once, though | |
| 16:29 | m_anish | yah, 4 months ago, acc to the bug report :) |
| 16:30 | ok, so I'll test the NM/mesh issue and if it works, i'll report it to you so that we can take a decision to release? | |
| 16:30 | silbe | ok. let's get this over with, even though we have known major bugs. |
| 16:31 | m_anish | +1 |
| 16:33 | okay, moving on beyond dx-3-alpha-1... | |
| 16:33 | #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Dextrose/3/Roadmap dx3 roadmap | |
| 16:33 | #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]e/3/FeatureFreeze dx3 feature freeze | |
| 16:33 | #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]se/3/SugarVersion dx3 sugar version | |
| 16:33 | alsroot, ^^ | |
| 16:33 | also /me sent emails to silbe and alsroot reg. the above | |
| 16:35 | silbe, alsroot we need to also run through this some time to filter out what we could fix before sep 19(dx3-alpha-2) but i'm very exhausted today :( http://dev.laptop.org.au/issue[…]ity_id%5D%5B%5D=4 | |
| 16:35 | &f%5B%5D=assigned_to_id&op%5Bassigned_to_id%5D=%3D&v%5Bassigned_to_id%5D%5B%5D=me&v%5Bassigned_to_id%5D%5B%5D=97&v%5Bassigned_to_id%5D%5B%5D=95&v%5Bassigned_to_id%5D%5B%5D=43&v%5Bassigned_to_id%5D%5B%5D=91&f%5B%5D=fixed_version_id&op%5Bfixed_version_id%5D=%3D&v%5Bfixed_version_id%5D%5B%5D=23&f%5B%5D=&c%5B%5D=project&c%5B%5D=tracker&c%5B%5D=status&c%5B%5D=priority&c%5B%5D=subject&c%5B%5D=assigned_to&c%5B%5D=updated_on& | |
| 16:35 | c%5B%5D=cf_3&group_by= | |
| 16:36 | wow, that's a long link :( , not good redmime :( | |
| 16:36 | silbe | if we decide to revert to the 0.88 collab code (which buggy as well), the only sensible way to do that would be to base on 0.88 and cherry-pick non-collab patches. The changes are too invasive for a revert. |
| 16:37 | m_anish | silbe, that's what I had thought too, and we also lose out on the work you did porting dx2 patches on top of dx3 |
| 16:38 | silbe | we should also remember that these changes were done for a reason. Telepathy will drop some of the code Sugar < 0.90 relies on in the future. Any work we do on the 0.88 collab code is only for a limited amount of time. |
| 16:39 | so we should carefully consider whether the differences between those versions are big enough to warrant a huge investment into a short time solution. | |
| 16:40 | as you might already guess, I'd prefer to go with 0.94 and continue fixing it. | |
| 16:41 | it's simply too late to switch horses | |
| 16:43 | m_anish | silbe, got disconn |
| 16:43 | <m_anish> silbe, +1, the blocker though is, the readyness of new collab by the time dx3 is to be relased by dec | |
| 16:43 | <m_anish> readiness=regressions fixed (atleast 2 releases before, by beta-1) and tested extensively | |
| 16:44 | silbe, hmm, i'm of the opinion that we could perhaps discuss this a bit more, perhaps with erikos as well, and figure this out together... | |
| 16:44 | silbe | m_anish: do we have a list of actual regressions? I.e. cases where 0.88 can be shown to work reliably, but 0.94 does not? |
| 16:45 | m_anish | silbe, there is a list here http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]e/3/FeatureFreeze |
| 16:45 | i'm not sure if it covers all cases | |
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| 16:45 | m_anish | s/cases/regressions/ |
| 16:45 | silbe | m_anish: feel free to discuss some more. I'm unlikely to change my mind (discussed it with a friend as well), but I wouldn't block your efforts, of course. |
| 16:47 | bernie | sorry to break into the discussion. i'm just curious: does 0.88 collaboration really work better than 0.94 at this time? i remember it was quite buggy too... |
| 16:48 | i haven't tested it in 0.94 at all, though | |
| 16:48 | m_anish | silbe, but if we think that fixing collab is too much work seriously affecting (1) its stability, workability (2) takes away from many other bugs/features we need to work on, i'd have to think otherwise :) |
| 16:49 | bernie, hi :-) silbe considers 0.94 collab broken atm, there are many regressions listed against it :) | |
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| 16:51 | silbe | m_anish: Sugar lives in a software ecosystem. It isn't easy to roll back just individual pieces. A newer version of Fedora means newer versions of Telepathy, evince, etc. All pieces must match for Sugar to work as intended. |
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| 16:52 | silbe | m_anish: i.e.: be careful not to underestimate the amount of work for reverting to the pre-0.90 collab code. |
| 16:53 | bernie | m_anish: ok, if there are serious *regressions*, then it will be really hard to convince users to upgrade |
| 16:53 | m_anish | silbe, there are three options (1) base on sugar-0.88 (2) base on 0.94 but with reverted to collab (3) fix collab |
| 16:53 | bernie | silbe: yeah, my sense was that the new collaboration code was *very* invasive |
| 16:53 | m_anish | (3) is the ideal soln (2) doesn't seem reasonable (1) is the fall-back |
| 16:54 | silbe, did i get my understanding of the problem right? | |
| 16:54 | bernie | silbe: aren't erikos and godiard working on (3)? do they have an ATE for the code will stabilize? |
| 16:54 | a/ATE/ETA/ | |
| 16:54 | silbe | m_anish: I'm not sure that Sugar 0.88 would work on F14. |
| 16:55 | bernie | ouch |
| 16:55 | m_anish | bernie, i asked erikos this question via email today, ccing you |
| 16:55 | alsroot | silbe: 0.88 is pretty stable, I run it in the same env as in 0.9x |
| 16:55 | silbe | bernie: they were working on it for Sugar 0.92 already, but it's so broken that time wasn't enough. |
| 16:55 | bernie | m_anish: yes, i've seen it. |
| 16:56 | silbe | alsroot: and it does work on Fedora 14? That's the part I'm not sure about (I don't run Fedora myself except for building DX3 images). |
| 16:56 | bernie | silbe: do you know if some of the bugs caused by the new telepathy stack? or is it mostly bugs in sugar and sugar-toolkit? |
| 16:56 | m_anish | bernie, ah i cced it, :) |
| 16:57 | alsroot | silbe: didn't test exactly on fedora, but my assomtion is that PS is much more bullet proof (keeping in mind -1 dep in comaring w/ new collab) than 0.9x |
| 16:57 | m_anish | silbe, FWIW, sugar-emulator using jhbuild with 0.88.1+uy patchset runs on f14 for me, obv not very thouroughly tested |
| 16:58 | silbe | another point I'd like to mention is that somebody will eventually need to fix 0.92+ collab (for the reasons pointed out above). I don't think anyone besides OLPC and AC would spend time on it, so if we work on reverting to 0.88 collab instead of fixing 0.94, we rock our own boat. |
| 16:58 | ok, that's anecdotal evidence, but nothing we should really base such a major decision on. | |
| 16:59 | m_anish | silbe, +1, but the bigger priority is that dx-3 has a working collab. |
| 17:01 | silbe | m_anish: then we should work on it. the first step would be to identify the actual regressions and prioritise them. |
| 17:01 | m_anish | silbe, FWIW, i'm willing to spend time on fixing collab, but i'm not willing to spend _all_ my time fixing collab :-). if we can determine with reasonable certainty that new collab code can be fixed with our constraints, i'm ok with that |
| 17:02 | silbe | while I consider 0.94 collab broken, the 0.88 one was rather buggy for me too. we should focus on what actually works worse in 0.92. |
| 17:02 | m_anish: I'm not certain of either option (0.88 or 0.94). | |
| 17:04 | m_anish | silbe, bernie i'd just like to point one more thing I learnt at py (and what yama explicitly told me too). people learn to live with old bugs and make their peace with them, but when there are new bugs, it really pisses them off |
| 17:05 | silbe, okay, so we need to discuss, perhaps with erikos, gonzalo too | |
| 17:05 | alsroot | silbe: for me regression is entirely collab, it is about programming culture, if such critical part was done w/o any regression tests (I mean sustainable ones in auto mode, not just ruinging it in dv env and see if if works), the entirely feature can't be landed to the trunk |
| 17:06 | and trying to "fix" this regression by doing the work that needs to be done out of trunk, it pretty wrong way for me | |
| 17:07 | silbe | m_anish: I see quite a few bugs are about Salut / link-local collab. One option would be to declare link-local collab to be unsupported for now. It's been buggy forever anyway and we could focus on fixing Jabber based collab (Gabble) instead. Salut has it's own special problems (because it uses unreliable multicast messaging) that are not easy to fix. |
| 17:08 | alsroot | silbe: also, thats not only about having shell, we will get/already-getting bunch of bug reports and bad thinking about sugar if, eg, Chat will just stop working in "stable" sugar version |
| 17:08 | silbe | alsroot: I agree this piece of code should have never landed. But ripping it out _now_ doesn't really solve anything. |
| 17:09 | alsroot | silbe: my major idea is not about reverting new collab, not not saying that current >0.88 sugar is stable |
| 17:09 | silbe | alsroot: we already have several "stable" versions now with unreliable collab :-/ |
| 17:09 | m_anish | silbe, would it (declaring link-local) cause regressions over previous versions, if that is so, its unacceptable as well |
| 17:10 | silbe | alsroot: FWIW, I still consider Sugar merely a technology preview, a demo. Unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that ~ 2 million kids are using this demo :-/ |
| 17:10 | alsroot | and we need to fix this really big issue before realeasing any stable versions. but that can't be don in a mounth or so. at least 6m |
| 17:10 | with having decent auto testing for collab | |
| 17:10 | silbe | m_anish: depends on what you consider a regression. As mentioned Salut has never worked reliably for me. But of course that's just anecdotal evidence again. |
| 17:11 | alsroot | for really stable sugars, I can't see any sugar versions more then 0.88 |
| 17:11 | ..for now | |
| 17:11 | m_anish | silbe, regressions=what worked (and was possibly used) in 10.1.3-au and doesn't in dx3 |
| 17:12 | silbe | alsroot: once we got rid of hippo-canvas and I land a few patches that are almost ready in my drawer, we can do automatic UI tests. Doing automatic collab test will require some more work (since you need a seperate unix account for each simulated user), but doable. |
| 17:13 | m_anish: then we should ask yama & co what they consider as working in 10.1.3-au. | |
| 17:13 | m_anish | silbe, that won't be in the 0.94 timeframe i guess? |
| 17:13 | silbe, ok | |
| 17:13 | alsroot | silbe: tp testing is much more doable (if testing was kept in mind while coding it, ie, not for current impl) than UI |
| 17:13 | ..for me | |
| 17:15 | m_anish | silbe, note: i'm not suggesting at all that we should stop contributing to fixing collab. what i'm saying is that we need to see if we can do that within dx3 timeframe, if not, we leave it to be included in later versions |
| 17:15 | silbe | m_anish: 0.94 is already in feature freeze. Automated UI tests is something for 0.96+. The changes would be too invasive for DX-3 anyway. We have enough on our hands fixing collab. |
| 17:15 | m_anish | silbe, +1 |
| 17:17 | silbe | alsroot: if you have a patch set for better collab integration, I'm all ears ;) |
| 17:19 | alsroot | silbe: I can't see how a word "path" might be related to the current collad code |
| 17:19 | *patch | |
| 17:20 | m_anish | silbe, alsroot ok, i think we've put our point on table :), and thanks a lot for that, atleast we know our position when we discuss with erikos, gonzalo |
| 17:20 | silbe, next topic? | |
| 17:20 | wanted to go through the bug list link mentioned as todo in featurefreeze page, but too tired :/ | |
| 17:20 | silbe | alsroot: If you have code that's a) better than what's in 0.94 and b) will continue working with future versions of Telepathy (which rules out 0.88), I'd be happy to merge it. |
| 17:22 | m_anish: ok. what's the next topic? | |
| 17:22 | m_anish | silbe, /me doesn't have any :) |
| 17:22 | alsroot, hows your work on SSK coming along :-) do you see yourself as free in coming few days to contrib to dx3-platfm | |
| 17:24 | alsroot | silbe: you got me entirely wrong, what you are saying is good eg for having new toolbar design in sugar. collab is a critical part (even of sugar philosophy), if it donesn't work, it affect sugar very drastically (including me and my projects, thats why I talking about it). the current sitation is that new collab was implemented in very not reliable way *from beggining* and needs to be rehashed by |
| 17:24 | devs who will take care of this code in the future | |
| 17:25 | silbe | alsroot: my point is that it never worked reliably anyway (for me at any rate). That's one of the reasons I still consider it just a demo. |
| 17:26 | alsroot | silbe: well, such demo is nemed as stable sugar by olpc this.. |
| 17:26 | and, if I got it right, we are talking about having it in new stable dx | |
| 17:26 | silbe | alsroot: and, even worse, used by ~ 2 million children :-/ |
| 17:27 | alsroot: I'm talking about all versions of Sugar, not just > 0.88. | |
| 17:28 | alsroot | m_anish: I need to compose XO-1 image w/ SSK packages and in hope to release today/tomorrow |
| 17:29 | silbe: well, if thing having more demo for 0.9x is a good way, then we need to continue to do the same (patcing demo step by step) | |
| 17:29 | *if you think | |
| 17:30 | ie, for hte begging landing raw code to the trunk, then patching it during the next 3y | |
| 17:32 | silbe | alsroot: I think we should work on making it more than just a demo in the future. I don't think reverting to code that will stop working in the future is a good step in that direction. |
| 17:32 | m_anish | alsroot, +1 on ssk |
| 17:33 | silbe | and unless somebody steps up to write new collab code, the one in 0.94 is the best we have, despite the bugs. |
| 17:33 | alsroot | silbe: once more, I'm not about reverting on its own. I'm for sustainable coding (and reverting might not worst way for that, eventually) |
| 17:34 | silbe | alsroot: I'm all for that as well. That's why I want to rip out as much as possible and replace it with something maintained by larger communities like Gnome. |
| 17:34 | m_anish | alsroot, silbe i think were diverting a little here... the discussion here is what version of collab is the best bet for dx3. |
| 17:34 | silbe | (while keeping the special features of Sugar) |
| 17:35 | m_anish | silbe, (1) i'm not saying that we won't work on collab, i'm saying that we need to figure out if it'll be ready by dx3, that's it, and take decisions accordingly |
| 17:36 | alsroot, (2) the point w.r.t dx3 is not whether we followed bad coding practice while we were rewriting collab, the point is whether its better than 0.88/collab. | |
| 17:37 | silbe, alsroot, (3) i'm all for following good coding practice while doing stuff, but we have to work with what we have right now, and decide accordingly :) | |
| 17:37 | silbe | m_anish: +1 |
| 17:37 | m_anish | alsroot, figuring out how to code collab is a bigger and 'different' issue for me |
| 17:38 | alsroot | m_anish: well, for me it is clear. we need to continue support dx2 |
| 17:39 | as a stable dextrose version | |
| 17:40 | 0.9x and dx3 might exist but it needs to be not declared for using(and supporting) in the field | |
| 17:40 | m_anish | alsroot, that;s only if we work with partners which use dx2. right now there is one 'uy' which uses something resembling dx2 (though af might join) |
| 17:41 | alsroot, dx3 will be the next stable version which will be used by au when we release it | |
| 17:42 | alsroot | m_anish: but it is feature freeze time for dx3, right? |
| 17:42 | m_anish | alsroot, i don't see dx3 as needing to be 0.94 (if we decide to go with 0.88) |
| 17:43 | alsroot, i'm willing to extend that to till end of this week | |
| 17:43 | (fri, 26th aug) | |
| 17:43 | alsroot | ie, after that we need to only polish it to cook ready-to-use-in-the-filed. in that case I don't see any possibility to have 0.94 |
| 17:45 | m_anish | alsroot, something like that, but its not a very easy decision, staying with 0.88 would mean a lot of other things (losing sync with olpc, having to cherrypick a lot of patches et al) :/ |
| 17:45 | alsroot | m_anish: well, it is only mine, pure tech, vision |
| 17:46 | thought, I don't have any other visions | |
| 17:46 | m_anish | :) |
| 17:47 | alsroot, ok | |
| 17:48 | alsroot, silbe so the next step is to discuss this with erikos and figure out their stand, i'd imagine :)? | |
| 17:49 | silbe | m_anish: certainly |
| 17:50 | m_anish | silbe, ok |
| 17:51 | ok, i don't have much else to discuss, alsroot silbe dirakx ? | |
| 17:52 | silbe | m_anish: nothing else for today I can think of |
| 17:53 | m_anish | silbe, ok (you started the meeting :P) |
| 17:54 | silbe | #endmeeting |
| 17:54 | meeting | Meeting ended Mon Aug 22 17:54:19 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
| 17:54 | Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-22T16:20:40.html | |
| 17:54 | Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-08-22T16:20:40 | |
| 17:56 | m_anish | silbe, alsroot bernie thanks a lot :-)) |
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| 18:02 | dirakx1 | reads logs |
| 18:09 | bernie | <m_anish> silbe, bernie i'd just like to point one more thing I learnt at py (and what yama explicitly told me too). people learn to live with old bugs and make their peace with them, but when there are new bugs, it really pisses them off |
| 18:09 | m_anish: yeah, these are very wise words | |
| 18:11 | m_anish | bernie, learnt in part fro you :) |
| 18:11 | bernie | m_anish: regressions are perceived by users as MUCH WORSE than other types of bugs |
| 18:13 | silbe | bernie: and rightly so. |
| 18:13 | bernie | m_anish: i was strongly opposed to merging the new collaboration code in 0.90 until it has been confirmed to work better than the old code |
| 18:14 | m_anish: code should NEVER be merged in the mainline of a project until it's an improvement over the old code | |
| 18:14 | m_anish | bernie, +1 |
| 18:14 | bernie | m_anish: actually, this is probably the only criteria that matters for merging something. is it an improvement over what we currently have? if yes, merge. |
| 18:16 | silbe | bernie: the problem is that what's considered an improvement can be highly subjective. |
| 18:17 | bernie | silbe: yes... and more testing can reveal problems in code that was believed to be a clear improvement... but testing off-tree code is usually hard |
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| 19:04 | silbe | cjb: how does the touch screen work? It works for me when I use my fingertips, but not with the nails or a pen (=> no fine control possible). |
| 19:09 | cjb | capacitively |
| 19:15 | silbe | ok, I see. thanks! |
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