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#sugar-meeting, 2011-08-15

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14:06 erikos <erikos!~erikos@g225070189.adsl.alicedsl.de> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:09 erikos hi designers!
14:09 manuq, does Gary come?
14:10 manuq erikos: the meeting is in an hour
14:10 gonzalo erikos, is at 15UTC
14:10 erikos ohhhhhh, sorry
14:56 garycmartin <garycmartin!~garycmart@> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:59 manuq garycmartin, morning!
15:00 garycmartin manuq: afternoon! :)
15:00 silbe garycmartin: hi!
15:00 manuq does not know garycmartin time zone
15:00 garycmartin silbe: Hi
15:00 gonzalo hello silbe, garycmartin
15:01 silbe manuq: CEST IIRC. Off-by-one at most. :)
15:01 garycmartin manuq: I'm in Edinburgh, UK (currently GMT+1)
15:01 manuq :-)
15:01 garycmartin gonzalo: Hi
15:01 We just waiting on Walter?
15:01 walterbender <walterbender!~chatzilla@146-115-134-246.c3-0.nwt-ubr​1.sbo-nwt.ma.cable.rcn.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:02 walterbender who wants to chair?
15:02 manuq I don't have the knowdlege yet
15:03 erikos hello
15:03 walterbender #startmeeting
15:03 meeting Meeting started Mon Aug 15 15:03:10 2011 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:03 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:03 garycmartin erikos: Hey, hi!
15:03 erikos manuq, (the commands are #startmeeting and #endmeeting)
15:04 manuq erikos: ok, maybe I will next time :)
15:04 erikos manuq, :)
15:04 manuq topics?
15:04 erikos so as today is Feature freeze any remaining questions about features would be great to discuss
15:05 maybe we can go quickly through the list of potential features and see where there are open items
15:05 manuq yes
15:05 gonzalo for example filter in favorites view :)
15:06 manuq gonzalo: that's hot bread :)
15:06 gonzalo: any screenshot?
15:07 walterbender OK...
15:07 #topic feature review
15:09 gonzalo manuq, is best try  it :)
15:09 erikos manuq, http://dev.laptop.org/~erikos/Pantallazo-1.png
15:10 manuq gonzalo: I did
15:10 erikos manuq, this is the filter Feature
15:10 gonzalo, it is good to have a screenshot for discussion
15:10 manuq erikos: thanks
15:10 gonzalo erikos, it's true, thanks for doing it
15:10 manuq gonzalo: yes, but maybe garycmartin, etc didn't find the time to test it
15:11 well for me, a big +1 for this
15:11 garycmartin manuq: yes I've not been able to test your patches here.
15:11 silbe gonzalo: at first glance, I'd prefer the going-gray effect (Neighbourhood)
15:11 gonzalo: whatever we choose (alpha or gray), we should be consistent between the Neighbourhood and the Home View.
15:12 garycmartin +1 to consistancy
15:13 gonzalo silbe, garycmartin, i think the colors have a different meaning in the home view
15:13 Cerlyn gonzalo: As far as I know in both cases they are the colors of the person who first started the (potentially shared) activity
15:13 garycmartin erikos: how does this look with an XO in monochrome (I think a good part of the original reason for going to a default grey)?
15:14 erikos garycmartin, the filter one?
15:14 garycmartin gonzalo: search filtering is search filtering, water you do it in Neighbourhood or Home view – so should be consistent.
15:16 water -> whether
15:17 gonzalo: can you describe how you see the meaning of colours being different?
15:18 erikos http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.94/Feature_List is a list of items
15:18 walterbender erikos: and $HOME/Documents :P
15:18 just resubmitted the patch
15:18 erikos walterbender, sorry!!!
15:19 silbe erikos: thanks for the list!
15:19 erikos walterbender, done
15:20 gonzalo garycmartin, in the home the color show if you already started the activity (and if we started it with another kid) , in the nb view all the ap have a color
15:20 silbe gonzalo: your patch doesn't seem to work for me. I can enter filter text (e.g. "browse"), but the icons don't change in any way.
15:20 erikos silbe, let's try to discuss the design first
15:20 gonzalo silbe, do you have the patch to icon applied?
15:21 erikos please no details to implementation
15:21 gonzalo silbe, this patch need the startup animation patches
15:21 silbe erikos: that's exactly what I wanted to try out. I'd like to compare the two effects (going gray vs. alpha).
15:21 garycmartin gonzalo: OK, now I understand what your trying to solve :)
15:22 jvonau has quit IRC
15:22 silbe gonzalo: ah! Please mention dependencies in the patch description.
15:22 gonzalo silbe, ok, sorry
15:22 walterbender forgot once again to mention the xdg dependency in the description of the $HOME/Documents patch :(
15:23 garycmartin gonzalo: (though the filter grey is much lighter than the 'no state to resume yet' darker grey)
15:23 erikos silbe, ok, sorry
15:24 gonzalo garycmartin, ahh, is a subtle difference
15:24 garycmartin erikos: Did you managed to experiment much with the rounded rect highlighting we had been discussing a while back as a possible replacement?
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15:25 erikos garycmartin, the rectangle like when you hover over the icon?
15:25 garycmartin erikos: yea.
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15:25 erikos garycmartin, no, I did not play with that, but told gonzalo as an option this morning
15:26 garycmartin gonzalo: can your new search filter effect effect be applied to Neighbourhood/Group views?
15:26 erikos garycmartin, maybe we should do both?
15:27 gonzalo garycmartin, yes it can.
15:27 erikos walterbender, can you add screenshots to your items?
15:27 walterbender, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.94/Feature_List
15:27 walterbender erikos: doing that right now
15:27 erikos walterbender, wonderful ;p
15:28 silbe gonzalo: still doesn't work for me; no error messages in the logs. => can't try it out
15:28 garycmartin gonzalo: Did you manage to solve the case of accidental keyboard typing ending up in the search filter – perhaps your hippo removing work has solved this (we had no sane place to place the default input focus before)
15:29 erikos ok, I would summarize the following for the filter item:
15:29 - people agree that it is useful and like it in general
15:29 silbe I don't think we should decide on it today, without being able to compare the two effects carefully. The Home View filter feature in general is a good idea, though.
15:30 erikos - we should explore a few more posibilities (grey circle, same filter in mesh view)
15:30 silbe erikos: +1
15:30 erikos silbe, right, just was about to say that
15:30 s/grey circle/grey rectangle
15:30 christophd <christophd!christophd@188-22-150-133.adsl.highway.telekom.at> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:31 walterbender erikos: screenshots added...
15:31 erikos gonzalo, if you drive it and reach consensus soon we might be able to land it as an exception
15:31 gonzalo, sounds good?
15:31 gonzalo, any questions about the points people raised here?
15:32 walterbender, thanks!
15:32 gonzalo erikos, ok, i will try the two options (alpha in nb view/rectangle in home) and send screenshots, ok?
15:32 erikos gonzalo, yes, great
15:33 gonzalo garycmartin, silbe: do you agree?
15:33 erikos gonzalo, I think best is to open a thread under [DESIGN]
15:33 gonzalo erikos, ok
15:33 i will
15:34 walterbender but again, +1 to the general idea... it is a pain to find activities sometimes when there are sooo many
15:34 erikos walterbender, yes!
15:34 walterbender, I think we all agree about that
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15:35 silbe gonzalo: it's ok with me.
15:35 walterbender shall we go to the next feature in the list?
15:35 erikos yes
15:35 - Startup animation
15:35 walterbender startup animation
15:36 garycmartin gonzalo: if we apply you effect consistently to Neighbourhood/Group/Home (and it's reasonably visible in XO monochrome) I think it should be fine (rounded rect highlights was just an idea we were kicking around before). The Home filter default input focus is the one to make sure is fixed, that was why filtering there was disabled in the first place.
15:36 erikos to summarize the current situation: Gonzalo offered to land the alpha code now and work on the double-buffer code with the additions Gary proposed
15:37 silbe, what was the exact issue you had design wise?
15:37 icarito did the disign meeting move to mondays? I thought it was wednesdays?
15:38 silbe garycmartin: FWIW I'd consider it a bug if characters typed in the Home View don't end in the filter. We should find a different solution if the filter is confusing users.
15:38 icarito (sorry to interrupt)
15:38 gonzalo icarito, yes, was moved to monday
15:38 silbe icarito: yes, it's Mondays now. We're postponing the AC meeting until after the Design Team meeting, sorry for the short notice.
15:38 icarito ok
15:39 thanks
15:40 silbe erikos: the change affects all pulsing icons, not just the launcher screen. One of the other pulsing icons - IIRC the AP icon - wasn't as "readable" after the change.
15:40 erikos: let me try to look up the discussion - or do you have a Patchwork link handy?
15:40 erikos gonzalo, ^^
15:41 gonzalo silbe, yes, let me look
15:42 garycmartin silbe: I would say this is a case of low floor. Accidental key presses by a small child 'disabling their activities' vs. asking a more advanced user to first click in the search field before typing.
15:42 erikos silbe, http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ugust/032610.html
15:42 silbe, this is the ml discussion
15:42 silbe #link https://patchwork.sugarlabs.org/patch/734/
15:42 erikos garycmartin, ohh, I see now your concern
15:42 silbe garycmartin: the filter should just gray out, not prevent interaction (does it?)
15:43 gonzalo garycmartin, the filte only highlight, do not disable
15:44 silbe garycmartin: maybe we should add a "feature level", like the "language level" in DrScheme? ;)
15:44 garycmartin gonzalo: does not disable, good! :)
15:44 gonzalo garycmartin, maybe is another reason to not use grey :)
15:45 garycmartin gonzalo: ;)
15:45 silbe erikos: the issue I previously had with the patch (haven't tried the new one yet) was that the icon "vanishes" during pulsing, making it hard to recognise. The previous behaviour is to change between two colours, keeping the "structure" of the icon always recognisable.
15:45 erikos garycmartin, I guess we have the same situation in other places: Journal, mesh view...
15:46 silbe, in the design thread this has been discussed to be fine as an intermediate step
15:46 silbe erikos: intermediate step to what?
15:46 erikos gonzalo, your feature ^^^ ;p
15:47 garycmartin erikos: Yes, but those are not the first page a user is presented with. Also the Journal at least has a little message "No matching entries" and a butting for  "Clear search".
15:47 butting -> button
15:47 erikos garycmartin, good point indeed
15:47 gonzalo silbe, to another animation, with alpha but with a gray icon in the background
15:48 walterbender gonzalo: that would seem to address the concern about disappearing icons
15:48 gonzalo walterbender, yes
15:48 silbe gonzalo: then why don't we land that one instead? ;)
15:49 gonzalo silbe, because, the code is more complex and was not reviewed
15:49 silbe back when I tried your patch, it was a rather significant regression under some lighting conditions.
15:49 christophd has quit IRC
15:50 silbe I don't remember what exactly those conditions were. Might have been in a bus (=> constantly changing lighting, laptop backlight off).
15:51 gonzalo silbe, may be we can try with this bus :)
15:51 silbe gonzalo: I don't take that bus anymore since I moved, but wider testing is definitely a good idea.
15:52 erikos I would say, let's get it in
15:52 because it does fix the issue where we have a white screen for a while
15:53 on xo1s
15:53 silbe gonzalo: Right now all I can see is that a) there's a regression in visibility and b) it claims to improve performance, but doesn't give any numbers.
15:53 garycmartin let's get it in +1 and fix it up as soon as possible.
15:53 erikos that does seem more important than the lightning case to me
15:53 walterbender silbe: there were some numbers in one of the threads
15:53 garycmartin activity start up time is a critical metric.
15:53 silbe erikos: hopefully there'll be no lightning :-P
15:54 erikos :)
15:54 silbe walterbender: do you have a link handy?
15:54 walterbender looks
15:55 silbe garycmartin: if it's just about latency, how about we first show an uncoloured icon and start the animation afterwards?
15:56 garycmartin silbe: watching the side by side videos gonzalo uploaded, XO-1.5s saves between 2 and 3 seconds with the simple fade effect, and it shows the zoom animation part.
15:56 silbe garycmartin: I wouldn't mind if it'd affect only the launcher. But it affects all pulsing icons.
15:56 gonzalo silbe, the problem with the actual startup animation is, every time we change the size or the color, the svg is renderered again
15:57 silbe, this take a long time in xos
15:57 garycmartin has left #sugar-meeting
15:57 walterbender silbe: In the thread http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ugust/032610.html are side-by-side comparisons and some very rough numbers
15:58 garycmartin <garycmartin!~garycmart@> has joined #sugar-meeting
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15:58 walterbender gonzalo: yes... I was considering simplifying the TA icon to speed up launch :P
15:58 garycmartin <garycmartin!~garycmart@> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:58 gonzalo walterbender: ha ha
15:59 silbe have the videos been removed from Youtube? I can't download them using cclive or youtube-dl.
15:59 erikos gonzalo, I would say: please look at the other occasions of the pulsing icon and see if there are any major differences
15:59 gonzalo, take a bus if necessary ;p
15:59 silbe lol
15:59 manuq silbe: no, they are still there
15:59 silbe hmpf
15:59 gonzalo silbe, i can see the videos
16:00 silbe gonzalo: do you still have the source files? can you upload them as plain files somewhere, e.g. people.sugarlabs.org?
16:00 erikos gonzalo, just to see if major and if you think you can fix it if there in the upcoming weeks
16:00 silbe, the patches are submitted
16:00 silbe erikos: I meant the source for the youtube videos
16:00 erikos ok, lets move on
16:00 silbe erikos: +1 for moving on
16:01 walterbender cloning :)
16:01 gonzalo erikos, ok
16:01 erikos - Add 'clone' to view source submenu
16:02 any major issues design wise?
16:02 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ne-screenshot.png
16:02 manuq maybe a better icon?
16:02 more like the duplicate icon?
16:03 erikos (note UI freeze is in a week: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0[…]/Roadmap#Schedule small UI changes can be made until then)
16:03 garycmartin manuq: +1 for duplicate icon
16:03 walterbender takes note
16:03 erikos yes, the dusplicate icon sounds good
16:04 name it as well: duplicate?
16:04 would be consistent with the Journal option
16:04 garycmartin walterbender: what happens when I clone a clone?
16:04 walterbender garycmartin: right now, you cannot
16:05 garycmartin: I take it back... you can
16:05 gonzalo walterbender: right now, you add the gear to the activity icon?
16:05 walterbender you get garycmartin_garrymartin_Moon.xo
16:06 garycmartin: it keeps prepending the nick
16:06 garycmartin: yes... the gear as a badge
16:07 jvonau <jvonau!~jvonau@S010600508b0f7a4e.wp.shawcable.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:07 Cerlyn walterbender: What level of file system support are you aiming for with the nickname sanitizing?
16:07 walterbender garycmartin: I am struggling a bit with applying the badge to some icons
16:07 manuq walterbender: have you detected the cases where the gear does not work?
16:07 garycmartin walterbender: I wish clone and make a journal bundle were separate items :(
16:08 walterbender manuq: yes... but because of some weird svg formatting
16:08 some icons use viewbox and that forces the icon to always resize, pushing my gear off the edge
16:08 manuq walterbender: if you do a list, I can check them and try to format it better
16:08 garycmartin walterbender: badge icons. Yea if you are scaling… I still occasionally see an icon made at 50x50 rather than 55x55, so the cog would not be in quite the correct position.
16:09 manuq walterbender: but of course, we can't change every activity icon in ASLO
16:09 walterbender garycmartin: it is worse than that...
16:09 garycmartin walterbender: can you interrogate the svg for it's size and then calculate an offset?
16:10 walterbender garycmartin: I could try... it'll be a bit ugly but I will experiment some more
16:10 can we decide on clone vs duplicate?
16:10 is agnostic
16:11 manuq I think +1 to duplicate for consistency
16:11 garycmartin walterbender: re:clone and make a journal bundle were separate items, this would make the workflow make much more sense for me. I could clone something and hack on it, then generate the journal bundle for sharing/upload. Or just hack on an existing activity I'm responsible for and then generate the journal bundle for sharing/upload.
16:11 erikos is for duplicate as well
16:12 garycmartin, that sounds interesting indeed
16:12 gonzalo walterbender: clone may imply the activities will be equals at all, but if the user is modifying the activity duplicate should be better
16:12 walterbender garycmartin: well, I don't see this as a feature for developers... if/when you want a new bundle, you can run setup.py
16:13 gonzalo garycmartin, +1, can be a way to share one activity
16:13 walterbender, but to users, can be a nice trick, make a bundle, send to a friend...
16:13 walterbender bought into the argument that all activities should have a bundle
16:14 gonzalo: but I do make the bundle already...
16:14 gonzalo walterbender, but think in a different use case
16:14 garycmartin walterbender: I'm just dogfooding the idea. I would likely use the feature with the above workflow.
16:14 walterbender gonzalo: I think gary is arguing that I should *not* make the bundle when I clone (duplicate)
16:15 garycmartin: the bundle can be overwritten by setup.py
16:15 gonzalo walterbender, yes. but think about this: when you are cloning a activity, you have not modified it yet
16:15 garycmartin gonzalo: +1
16:15 walterbender gonzalo: well, yes you have. the icon, the activity.info file
16:16 gonzalo waltender, if you want share the activity with your modified files, you need go, edit, and later create the xo
16:17 walterbender gonzalo: of course... but how does the pregenerated .xo file impair that workflow?
16:17 gonzalo walterbender, but what utility have the pregenerated .xo?
16:18 walterbender gonzalo: consistency... ~/Activities is a reflection of the bundles you have installed
16:19 gonzalo: and it means you can revert your changes
16:19 silbe we're running out of time. Can we try to reach consensus on this feature?
16:20 gonzalo walterbender, in most cases, /Activities does not have any relation with the bundles in your journal
16:20 walterbender we reached consensus on clone-> duplicate... re the bundle, I guess we need to discuss it further on the list
16:20 gonzalo walterbender, may be we can land it how is now, separate is later is not a problem
16:21 garycmartin +1
16:21 walterbender also, I will experiment some more with icon/badge placement
16:21 next item? sugar-toolkit viewsource?
16:22 garycmartin walterbender: do you have a screen shot of that?
16:22 walterbender garycmartin: linked from erikos 's feature page
16:23 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ce-screenshot.png
16:23 garycmartin walterbender: tahnks
16:23 (thanks)
16:23 walterbender actually, I had a question about view source in general
16:24 In this version of the patch, as per erikos 's excellent suggestion, I change the title to Sugar Toolkit View Source
16:24 and back to the activity title when viewing the activity source
16:24 but I think we should be using activity name, not activity title
16:25 garycmartin walterbender: Random suggestion. Should we be badging both view activity source and sugar source icons with the cog?
16:25 walterbender If I rename an instance (activity title) that has nothing to do with the code I am viewing
16:25 garycmartin: could try that...
16:26 some activities have instance source too, e.g., Browse and Turtle Art. Those activities should use the instance title for their Title.
16:26 silbe walterbender: +1 on using the activity name instead of the (instance) title
16:26 (for the activity source code)
16:26 walterbender silbe: I'll prepare a patch so we can look at it...
16:27 silbe walterbender: thx!
16:27 garycmartin walterbender: +1
16:27 walterbender 3 different titles: instance data uses the Instance name; activity source the Activity name; Sugar-toolkit source the string Sugar-Toolkit view source as per the illustration
16:28 silbe walterbender: can you add an action item for the minutes?
16:28 walterbender silbe: yes. I'll do the previous ones too.
16:28 I did have one issue unresolved that I mentioned in the patch notes
16:29 erikos walterbender, ahh, we have to solve that one
16:29 walterbender I don't know how to tell the treeview that I am displaying activity/activity.py by default
16:29 erikos ok, maybe the reviewer has an idea
16:30 next one
16:30 - Journal: adding $HOME/Documents to volumestoolbar
16:30 walterbender I've a bit ignorant about manipulating the treeview... I can get top-level nodes to display properly...
16:30 erikos walterbender, (technical stuff...:)
16:30 silbe erikos: only if you do the review ;)
16:30 (I didn't have an idea)
16:30 walterbender #action: walter will change the copy icon to duplicate icon in clone activity feature
16:31 #action walter will change clone string to duplicate string in clone activity feature
16:31 erikos #action walter to rename 'clone' to 'duplicate'
16:31 heh
16:31 walterbender #action walter will experiment with adding badges to icons in view source
16:31 erikos walterbender, do you have a screenshot of that one as well?
16:32 walterbender, the $HOME/Documents
16:32 walterbender http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ts-screenshot.png
16:32 #action: walter will use activity name for activity title in view source
16:32 erikos forgot to reload th e page
16:33 walterbender #action: walter will keep pounding away at treeview code to properly initialize the position in the tree
16:33 erikos the icon has been agreed on afaik? garycmartin, manuq ?
16:33 walterbender erikos: it is gary's redesign of my original icon
16:33 erikos walterbender, great ;p
16:34 any other comments here?
16:34 walterbender #action gonzalo will explore fading from a gray icon instead of white in the new launcher
16:35 erikos 5
16:35 4
16:35 garycmartin erikos: so will we add folders to non Journal fs views ;-b
16:35 erikos 3
16:35 silbe and investigate how to fix the contrast issues :)
16:35 walterbender #action gonzalo will explore the constrast issue in the new launcher/pulser
16:36 erikos garycmartin, any issues with this? (I am not fully convinced about our presentation of general file systems in the Journal)
16:36 walterbender #action gonzalo will look into using the light gray icon color during homeview search to indicate non-matching activities
16:36 gonzalo #gonzalo will try doing filter in nb view with alpha
16:36 walterbender thinks he caught up with the backlog
16:36 erikos gonzalo, you need to use #action for the minutes generation
16:36 gonzalo #action gonzalo will try doing filter in nb view with alpha
16:37 erikos great!
16:37 garycmartin erikos: +1 to the current documents view design from me (fs views can be in another cycle)
16:37 erikos garycmartin, you mean to have a better presenttaion of the hierarchical file system?
16:37 walterbender thinks the tagging patches will influence how we approach this problem
16:37 silbe gonzalo: IIRC only the chair can add action items :-/
16:38 walterbender #action gonzalo will try doing filter in nb view with alpha
16:38 gonzalo silbe, ops :/
16:39 walterbender shall we move on to the wireless discussion?
16:39 garycmartin erikos: "better presenttaion of the hierarchical file" yes. but just how we do that is for another topic (e.g. just show hierarchical folders, or try to be journal like with some tag/path scheme).
16:39 silbe walterbender: +1, but let's record consensus on the Documents folder feature
16:40 walterbender +1 from me :P
16:40 erikos garycmartin, yes, great
16:40 next one
16:40 - Wireless network Frame device: Add text for disconnected state
16:40 manuq +1. it seems important to land a rapid solution, and we can improve later, maybe with tags
16:41 erikos do people agree on this?
16:41 gonzalo erikos, yes, have sense
16:41 silbe erikos: +1
16:41 garycmartin erikos: it's better than a blank palette! ;)
16:41 walterbender yes... but I still hate the smiley computer :P
16:41 erikos I actually don't think we see this often as we connect automatically to an adhoc network
16:41 but ok, to have it
16:42 walterbender, please stay on topic :)
16:42 - Add support for removing connections / forgetting network credentials
16:42 silbe, this is in addition to the option in the control panel?
16:42 silbe is the general silence agreement to my proposal? :)
16:42 erikos http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]gar-ap-forget.png
16:43 walterbender +1
16:43 garycmartin walterbender: "the smiley computer" you need to buy a Mac ;-)
16:43 silbe (re. adding the text)
16:43 erikos silbe, the text is ok
16:44 garycmartin +1
16:44 manuq +1
16:44 walterbender cool... we made it through the features list!!!
16:44 gonzalo +1
16:44 garycmartin silbe: I take it the current CP forget all button is still the same?
16:45 silbe garycmartin: yup, that's unchanged.
16:46 erikos maybe the text should then be: Discard this network
16:46 because the text in the CP is:
16:46 Discard network history
16:47 or 'Discard this favorite network'
16:47 garycmartin Discard this favourite network
16:47 silbe erikos: but we don't discard the network, just the settings.
16:47 erikos those british
16:47 silbe erikos: where did you go to school? No Oxford english? :-P
16:48 erikos garycmartin, so you prefer as well 'Discard' over 'Forget'?
16:48 silbe erikos: that's also the reason I went with "Forget" rather than "Remove": we don't want the user to think it affects anyone else in any way, just themselves.
16:48 gonzalo what is the idea here? reset the configuration?
16:49 erikos the first user is confused ;p
16:49 silbe gonzalo: removing the NetworkManager connection (settings) for this network
16:50 gonzalo: if you try connecting again and it's a secured network, you'll be asked for credentials, like the first time you connected to this network.
16:50 gonzalo silbe, then "Remove connection settings"
16:50 garycmartin erikos: I so prefer consistency where ever we can manage it ;-) I guess the questing could also be is the original CP text "Discard network history" the right choice vs "Forget network history".
16:50 erikos hmm
16:51 silbe gonzalo: is that easy to understand for an elementary school child? /me is not sure
16:51 erikos garycmartin, you are a native speaker, maybe you can make a suggestion
16:52 garycmartin +1 for forget.
16:52 erikos garycmartin, (if needed for the CP and the palette)
16:52 walterbender +1 for forget from this native speaker too (from the other side of the Pond)
16:52 garycmartin The CP network module needs work, so we can change the string there another time.
16:53 erikos walterbender, :)
16:54 walterbender silbe: if we are done with this topic, there was a question that we neglected to discuss from Cerlyn earlier
16:54 silbe: do I need to do anything to a nick to ensure that the filename I generate is valid?
16:54 Cerlyn walterbender: Also are you presuming a Unicode-supporting filesystem, or something more restrictive than that
16:54 silbe nice. FWIW, I can change the CP text as well. How about "Forget favorite networks"?
16:55 walterbender: that's a technical question => we can discuss it in #sugar later
16:55 erikos so: 'Forget this favourite network' is it?
16:55 walterbender silbe: +1 to forgetting about it :P
16:56 erikos silbe, gary is right, if we can avoid a string change lets postpone
16:56 silbe, (there are too many non-active translation teams)
16:57 walterbender sometimes wishes there was a way to detect if a string had a translation and if not to revert to something else...
16:57 silbe erikos: hmm. we should fix that since it will affect any new string we introduce, but I don't care about this particular string enough to argue any more about it.
16:58 walterbender: there is and it even works :-P
16:58 walterbender anything else to discuss on the features topic?
16:59 silbe walterbender: you can set any number of languages in the CP and it'll use the string from the first one that has it. en_US can only be the last language since, by definition, we always have an en_US "translation".
16:59 walterbender silbe: let's discuss on #sugar... I had something different in mind
17:00 silbe walterbender: ok
17:00 manuq ok! anything else?
17:00 walterbender if I could bug garycmartin for a moment before we end...
17:00 silbe have we recorded agreements on everything that's ready to land?
17:00 erikos I think we have agreement, yes
17:00 garycmartin walterbender: bug away!
17:00 erikos was very productive, i think
17:01 walterbender silbe: I guess I didn't use the #agreed tag.... will do
17:01 manuq erikos: good!
17:01 sorry I have to leave now
17:01 garycmartin Will we move onto toolbars or are we time maxed out?
17:01 silbe walterbender: thx, that's what I meant. It makes it easier to find past decision if one only needs to scan the minutes rather than read the full logs.
17:02 walterbender garycmartin: just wanted to know if you had a chance to look over the various icon options manuq, gonzalo and I have been working on
17:02 garycmartin walterbender: yep, all read through.
17:02 manuq garycmartin: yes, your review is very welcome
17:02 garycmartin Some quick points then....
17:03 walterbender: All your TA turtle toolbar icons have the shell pattern as outlines. Should be filled with no or minimal strokes to be more clear (less strobe inducing) and match the activity icon?
17:03 walterbender #topic toolbars
17:03 garycmartin: OK. easy enough to do
17:03 garycmartin walterbender: the filled pattern should show a little better at those small scales.
17:04 walterbender #action walter to fill the small instances of the turtle shell icons
17:04 manuq I'm sorry I have to go
17:04 will read the logs later
17:04 bye
17:04 garycmartin manuq: bye!
17:04 manuq has quit IRC
17:04 walterbender thanks for joining us marcopg
17:05 oops autocomplete got me as manuq left
17:05 garycmartin :)
17:05 walterbender: Curved arrows vs arrows with right angle bends, was a decision made.
17:05 walterbender garycmartin: I think the right angle reads much more clearly at that scale
17:05 garycmartin walterbender: Arrow placement top left vs. bottom right, was a decision made?
17:06 gonzalo garycmartin, ohh, what was the decision?
17:06 walterbender but I don't think a formal decision was made
17:07 garycmartin walterbender: which of the (many) collection boxes was the one selected (or favourite)?
17:07 walterbender garycmartin: I argued that we wanted some flexibility there depending upon the orientation of the auxiliary graphic (horizontal -- mimetype image vs vertical -- mimetype HTML)
17:07 garycmartin walterbender: flexibility, yes saw that. I wanted to suggest that we could also con side a clockwise flow metaphor.
17:08 walterbender garycmartin: I think we settled on manuq' s box in the end: inspired by gonzalo's box, but more narrow
17:08 gonzalo walterbender, can you point to one example?
17:09 maybe this one http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Jam-presets.png ?
17:09 walterbender ^
17:09 garycmartin walterbender: so that objects coming out of a collection had an arrow top left vs. back in again for the Journal/FS case with an arrow bottom right.
17:09 walterbender gonzalo: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/T[…]m/Toolbar_Catalog
17:09 examples of each there...
17:10 garycmartin: I like that idea, actually
17:10 garycmartin (the clockwise metaphor will help if you have a row of otherwise similar icons)
17:10 gonzalo garycmartin, yes
17:10 walterbender agreed?
17:11 I can mock it up in TA as a reference
17:11 garycmartin walterbender: so it it the collection box in your visual match example?
17:11 walterbender garycmartin: yes
17:12 garycmartin: and in the TamTamJam and SynthLab examples
17:12 garycmartin: and in Abacus and Icanread
17:12 gonzalo walterbender, this can be a good example too http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]save-load-alt.png
17:13 garycmartin walterbender: +1 if we can nudge the box up a little, or bring it up by making is vertically shorter a small amount. It is current a little too close to the disclosure down widget (and it will almost always have one of those below it).
17:13 walterbender gonzalo: exactly. that will be the one I clean up for clockwise
17:16 garycmartin: any other suggestions
17:16 garycmartin gonzalo: walterbender: Memorize, what about adding the "blank new game…" option inside the combo box?
17:17 walterbender where are the new Memorize toolbars?
17:17 gonzalo garycmartin, but what means when you are in play mode?
17:17 walterbender, i did not send them yet
17:18 walterbender meanwhile...
17:18 #action: walter to convert TA icons to use garycmartin clockwise scheme
17:18 gonzalo walterbender, i will do new screenshots based in the last meeting
17:18 garycmartin gonzalo: if you're playing a game and select  "blank new game…" from the combo, you would get a blank game switched to edit mode.
17:19 gonzalo garycmartin, ok, is good
17:20 garycmartin gonzalo: Did you guys resolve the game naming issue? Will we drop the explicit load/save process?
17:20 walterbender garycmartin: gonzalo was going to make some mockups, but I confidence in his new scheme
17:21 gonzalo garycmartin, we talked about adding to the combo the games in the journal
17:21 walterbender garycmartin: the combo box will select the game, autoloaded from the journal
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17:21 gonzalo garycmartin, and we can implement a autosave or a explicit save button
17:22 garycmartin OK, cool. Will that be quick if there are 1000s+ items in the Journal?
17:22 gonzalo garycmartin: but the game name is not the same than the activityname
17:22 garycmartin: good, question, but i will try
17:23 garycmartin walterbender: For the import/export icons the open Journal does look better to me.
17:23 walterbender garycmartin: I agree
17:24 garycmartin: I was thinking about an open folder for the TA toolbar
17:24 garycmartin: on http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]save-load-alt.png
17:25 garycmartin: did I discuss with you or just gonzalo the idea of letting activities mount their example folders to the volumestoolbar in the Journal when they launch?
17:26 garycmartin walterbender: for the import/export to filesystem/folder I was thinking perhaps the simpler folder shape I reworked for your home/documents patch (more for consistency). But not a big deal I guess. Hopefully in time the Object Chooser will be able to cover this use case.
17:26 gonzalo garycmartin, walterbender, i need finish now, do you need anything from my part?
17:27 walterbender gonzalo: I think we are good... I'll finish up with the remaining #agreeds for the minutes
17:27 garycmartin: I'll play with the folder icon while I am working on TA artwork
17:27 garycmartin walterbender: "activities mount their example folders to the volumestoolbar" I think that must have been gonzalo. Interesting idea though might be a little hidden from the user as is.
17:28 walterbender garycmartin: well, the activity might be able to even select that folder by default in the Chooser...
17:28 gonzalo garycmartin, can be a more consistent view to load the examples
17:28 garycmartin gonzalo: anything you need from me?
17:28 walterbender garycmartin: I'll experiment with it, but it won't make the feature list for this go-around :P
17:29 gonzalo garycmartin, no, i think we are ok, thanks bye checking the pot files!
17:29 walterbender we should wrap up but it has been a productive meeting...
17:29 thanks
17:29 gonzalo bye !
17:29 garycmartin Thanks all!
17:29 Great meeting.
17:30 silbe +1
17:30 walterbender #agreed accept Filter in Home View (with caveat of sorting out the alpha vs gray issue)
17:31 #agreed accept Startup animation feature (with expectation that we'll eventually fade to gray instead of white)
17:31 #agreed accept the Add 'clone' to view source submenu (with change from clone to duplicate)
17:32 #agreed accept the Add view source for sugar-toolkit
17:32 #agreed accept the Journal: adding $HOME/Documents feature
17:32 #agreed accept the Wireless network Frame device: Add text for disconnected state feature
17:33 #agreed accept the Add support for removing connections / forgetting network credentials feature
17:33 Anything I missed?
17:33 cjl walterbender: Phrasing of forget network?
17:34 erikos cjl, no, that was right already
17:34 cjl ok, as a native speaker from the NJ/NY area, I suppose "fuggedaboutit" is out of the question?  :-)
17:34 walterbender sorry all the #agreeds weren't in line...
17:35 erikos: what is the name of the duplicate icon?
17:36 erikos walterbender, edit-duplicate
17:36 walterbender erikos: thanks.
17:36 erikos walterbender, let me see if I pushed that already, actually...
17:36 silbe cjl: add a new dialect on Pootle ;)
17:36 walterbender erikos: I'll mention the dependency in the revised patch
17:36 erikos walterbender, let me push it
17:36 cjl erikos we should touch base on POT refreshes if there are string changes / additions.  I'm getting all Fructose POTs refreshed right now.
17:37 erikos cjl, ok, I can tell you the additions/changes when we landed the stuff
17:37 cjl great
17:37 erikos cjl, release is on wednesday
17:38 cjl Calculate was the last one, gary gave me the update of the POT in git today.
17:39 walterbender I am gunna end the design team meeting...
17:39 3
17:41 silbe 2
17:41 walterbender 1
17:41 #endmeeting
17:41 meeting Meeting ended Mon Aug 15 17:41:34 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
17:41 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-15T15:03:10.html
17:41 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-08-15T15:03:10
17:41 cjl erikos: By release on Wednesday you mean 0.93.1 > 0.93.2 right?
17:42 String freeze isn't unti Sept 5th.
17:42 garycmartin walterbender: thanks for chairing
17:42 erikos cjl, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0[…]/Roadmap#Schedule
17:42 cjl yep
17:43 erikos cjl, we can wait as well until the string freeze before notifying translators
17:43 cjl erikos: Better t ogive tehm as much time as possible
17:43 erikos cjl, I thought so too
17:44 cjl, but there might be changes :/
17:44 cjl BTW nothing on Wed is called a release on that page. (although it coudl be called 0.93.2 release.
17:44 erikos cjl, Aug 17 Sucrose 0.93.2
17:45 cjl erikos, I know, but it doesn't say "release" like the othes do, that's all.
17:45 erikos cjl, ahh, I see ;p
17:45 cjl just my confusion.
17:46 erikos: We should land refreshed POTs in a few days or whenever (if there are changes), then again for the string freeze.
17:47 The POT generation for glucose is distinct from the rest and I don't understand it as well.
17:48 It may be tha tthe automagical refresh is working for glucose as I said in an earlier conversation, I just think we need t owatch closely and not assume.
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