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#sugar-meeting, 2011-08-10

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15:53 walterbender gonzalo: no sign of manuq tiday?
15:59 manuq <manuq!~manuq@190.194.32.194> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:59 manuq hello!
16:05 walterbender manuq: hello
16:05 manuq, gonzalo: no garymartin?
16:05 manuq hello walterbender
16:06 walterbender manuq: I think we pretty much covered our to-do list from last week :P
16:06 manuq walterbender: yes!
16:07 walterbender: I will try another shape for the spark in abacus
16:07 walterbender manuq: I would like help with a different class of icons this week: the ones for loading and saving different types of objects from/to the Journal
16:08 manuq walterbender: good
16:09 walterbender manuq: I think gonzalo's spark looks OK. but if you have other ideas, we should explore them
16:09 gonzalo hello
16:09 manuq walterbender: gonzalo said me to give a look at the spark
16:09 walterbender manuq: re the Journal IO, I had been using the transfer icons, which I think is not great
16:09 manuq gonzalo: hello!
16:09 walterbender hi gonzalo
16:10 should I log the meeting?
16:10 manuq walterbender: yes
16:10 walterbender: ok, go on
16:10 walterbender #startmeeting
16:10 meeting Meeting started Wed Aug 10 16:10:22 2011 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:10 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
16:10 gonzalo walterbender: you know anything from gary?
16:10 walterbender gonzalo: no. haven't heard from him at all
16:11 BTW, silbe asked if we could move the meeting to a different time so he could join us... he suggested Mondays at 15UTC, if I recall
16:11 but we should see what times work for gary too
16:12 gonzalo ok
16:12 walterbender as manuq and I were discussing, I'd like to revisit the icons for Journal IO and filesystem IO
16:12 gonzalo walterbender: ok
16:12 walterbender: you are talking about the big arrows?
16:12 walterbender yes... :P
16:13 manuq walterbender: a while ago I did some import/export icons
16:13 walterbender I am wondering if something as simple as replacing the box with a Journal icon wouldn't work better...
16:13 manuq http://dev.laptop.org/~manuq/import-export/
16:14 walterbender I mean the box that gonzalo designed for collections
16:14 manuq walterbender: right
16:14 walterbender manuq: the problem I have with those designs is (1) they are too similar to the transfer icons and (2) they don't say to me Journal in any way
16:15 manuq walterbender: I can try an icon with the journal as a badge
16:15 walterbender manuq: a badge won't tell us save vs load
16:15 manuq: but the arrow in or out of the box does tell us that
16:15 gonzalo walterbender: i am not very very sure about the box also
16:15 walterbender let me try a quick mock-up... one second
16:16 manuq walterbender: I didn't mean badge, bad english
16:16 gonzalo but is a different concept the collection than the journal io
16:16 walterbender gonzalo: the box may not be perfect, but I think it is by far better than what we had before...
16:16 manuq walterbender: I mean using the journal like the box
16:17 walterbender manuq: I'd like to see what that looks like...
16:17 gonzalo: I think this works pretty well: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/imag[…]lbar_Examples.png
16:17 manuq walterbender: I'm on inkscape atm
16:18 gonzalo walterbender, manuq: before starting with graphic ideas, may be we can check what concepts we need display
16:18 walterbender manuq: It may look somewhat like http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/imag[…]ize_Toolbar_3.png but I think the scale is wrong.
16:18 manuq walterbender: right!
16:18 walterbender gonzalo: we need the concept of loading (or saving) a particular object type to the Journal...
16:19 gonzalo: an activity instance or a picture or sound or python code, etc.
16:19 gonzalo: we also need a way of doing the same for the file system
16:20 gonzalo and transfers, and collections inside a activity
16:20 (like the abacus or tamtam subtoolbars)
16:20 walterbender gonzalo: (unless we adopt the schema we discussed last week of letting activities mount the file system in the journal for the Chooser)
16:20 gonzalo: more like the memorize or turtle art toolbars...
16:21 gonzalo: I need a solution for http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/imag[…]cks_Toolbar_3.png
16:21 gonzalo walterbender: yes, i think the arrows in this case are not right
16:22 manuq +1
16:22 walterbender gonzalo: I think memorize is closer to the right metaphor: the journal icon and an arrow
16:22 gonzalo walterbender: i agree
16:22 walterbender gonzalo: but they details are wrong: proportions etc.
16:24 is not sure how to distinguish turtle art code from Logo code -- both really want to be represented by turtles.
16:24 manuq :)
16:25 OK I can work on the icons for load/save from/to journal
16:26 taking into account the Memorize ones, changing proportions, and making it look similar to the collections
16:26 I thought for a moment in the opened book I did for Wikipedia:
16:26 http://dev.laptop.org/~manuq/w[…]search_icon_2.png
16:27 gonzalo walterbender, manuq: is very easy play with the sizes in these icons http://dev.laptop.org/~gonzalo/game-load.svg
16:27 manuq but I like the journal seen from the front cover
16:28 tch has quit IRC
16:29 manuq gonzalo: good!
16:29 gonzalo i think we need a guide about how apply the sparkle, the box or the journal folder and arrows
16:29 manuq we should take car of the stroke lines widths
16:29 gonzalo yes
16:30 manuq yes, I can write a guide
16:30 gonzalo: we better try to use them in more icons also
16:31 gonzalo: to see if they work
16:31 walterbender I just made a new icon... uploading
16:31 manuq we need more test cases for the sparkle, box and journal
16:32 walterbender manuq: I generated 3-4 examples of each on the Talk page in the wiki...
16:32 manuq goes to the talk page
16:32 gonzalo manuq, walterbender, do you think we need a different badge to exports? i don't think so, we are showing the format
16:33 walterbender gonzalo: I don't follow you... can you point to an example?
16:34 is really frustrated by how slow the wiki is... :P
16:35 gonzalo walterbender: i think we talked about import/export icons, are these the same Journal IO icons or are different?
16:36 walterbender import/export to where? the file system? I think we need to look at that as well
16:37 gonzalo walterbender: can you show me one case where we need them?
16:37 walterbender gonzalo: in turtle art, importing examples of TA code or Python code
16:38 gonzalo: or in the new Edit where you can load or save to the file system
16:39 gonzalo walterbender: but if we show the needed directory in the object chooser we resolve this problem
16:40 walterbender gonzalo: yes... if...
16:40 gonzalo walterbender: yes, i know, but i think is more consistent
16:40 walterbender gonzalo: we will need to do something for when the activities are run on Sugar without this feature, which currently is all of sugar :P
16:41 anyway, what do you think of http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/imag[…]eArt-code.svg.png
16:41 err... http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/T[…]011-08-10_meeting
16:42 gonzalo walterbender: if is slow in Boston, imagine in buenos aires... :)
16:43 manuq or Santa Fe :)
16:43 gonzalo walterbender, i think is a better
16:44 manuq I like the proportions, but I like more the opened journal in the Memorize designs
16:44 and I think that the arrow can be better
16:44 gonzalo manuq, yes, but the closed journal is simpler and can be smaller
16:44 walterbender manuq: good point about the open journal
16:44 I'll try it and we can compare
16:45 how can I improve the arrow?
16:46 manuq walterbender: let me check
16:49 walterbender the wiki is soooo sloooow :(
16:52 the 'open journal' example is still uploading...
16:53 manuq maybe I do design work after the meeting
16:54 gonzalo manuq, +1
16:54 manuq any other topic?
16:54 gonzalo you can do a few examples looking at the actual toolbars
16:55 manuq gonzalo: yes I will
16:55 gonzalo look at Laberynth and Write too
16:55 manuq ok
16:55 walterbender gonzalo: I'll make a new example from the TA toolbars after the meeting
16:55 gonzalo walterbender: ok
16:56 walterbender let's switch topics to Laberynth and Write
16:56 gonzalo walterbender: do you want continue with toolbars review like in the last meeting?
16:56 or we can talk about Memorize proposed design
16:56 (or startup animations!)
16:57 walterbender gonzalo: whatever will be most useful to you
16:57 manuq gonzalo: the startup animations look awesome!
16:57 walterbender +1
16:57 gonzalo i _really_ want push this (i started at the end of last year)
16:58 manuq gonzalo: I sent you an email about memorize design, I think a week ago
16:58 gonzalo yes manuq
16:58 walterbender gonzalo: I think from the design POV, it is set to go
16:59 It is fast, which is really what the users care about
16:59 gonzalo walterbender, you think the first example (with alpha) is enough visible?
17:00 walterbender gonzalo: at the point, I think that efficiency should be the overriding concern... we just need to give a hint to the user that something is happening...
17:02 gonzalo walterbender: i agree, but the pulsing icons are used in other few palces, like the access point in the neighborview when connecting
17:03 and sasha said before we need check this with design team because is a change in the visuals
17:03 walterbender gonzalo:  I am afraid we should get a final signoff when gary can chime in too... but I am fine with it
17:04 gonzalo walterbender: ok, may be you can reply the mail in sugar-devel, we are at 5 days of freeze
17:05 walterbender gonzalo: OK... (thought I did already but maybe I did not)
17:05 gonzalo also i removed hippo from the launcher :)
17:05 walterbender gonzalo: :)
17:06 gonzalo ok, can we check the memorize proposal?
17:06 walterbender gonzalo: can you provide a link to the images?
17:07 gonzalo walterbender, sent email, sorry i though i sent you before
17:08 walterbender gonzalo: I'll look for it...
17:09 gonzalo: I think that in general the layout makes sense...
17:09 gonzalo: but maybe keep the load and save buttons on the main toolbar?
17:10 (and we need to clean up those icons)
17:10 gonzalo: I think the disabled versions of the icons are very subtle. perhaps too subtle?
17:11 gonzalo walterbender, i am afraid of space in the main toolbar (specially by the combos with text)
17:11 walterbender, may be i can show/hide the buttons
17:11 walterbender, when we change from play to build mode
17:12 manuq gonzalo: or maybe move it to the canvas?
17:12 but it may be a bad idea, to have buttons outside toolbars
17:12 walterbender gonzalo: yeah... I was afraid of that...
17:12 gonzalo manuq, the last example move the buttons to the canvas
17:13 walterbender, this week i was working in the armenian build, the texts are huge :(
17:13 walterbender gonzalo: maybe the customize should be a subtoolbar and the save would live there.
17:14 manuq gonzalo: yes, in my replay, I moved also the toolbar elements in play mode
17:14 gonzalo walterbender, no, because if is a subtoolbar, you can change accidentally only with hover
17:14 and all the screen cange
17:14 change
17:15 manuq walterbender: the problem with subtulbars is that it changes the size of the canvas
17:15 as gonzalo said before me
17:16 gonzalo manuq, but in this case, not only the size, here change the content of the canvas
17:16 manuq gonzalo: yes
17:16 walterbender gonzalo: if the edit toolbar would be separate from the others, then it is less of an issue.
17:18 gonzalo walterbender, i don't think so
17:18 walterbender gonzalo: it seems we would want to be able to bounce back and forth between editing and playing
17:19 gonzalo walterbender, yes, but not accidentally :)
17:20 walterbender gonzalo: but if you can swtich back and forth non destructively, why not?
17:22 gonzalo walterbender: i think will be distractive
17:22 i think is better use a explicit change of mode by the user
17:23 walterbender gonzalo: yes... but I am not sure I understand the scenario you are describing...
17:23 gonzalo walterbender: what we get if we use a subtoolbar to edit?
17:23 walterbender: look at this
17:24 walterbender gonzalo: If I am already playing a game, I have no need to use the toolbars... the chances of accidentally jumping to edit mode would be mimimal
17:24 gonzalo: but if I am exploring the toolbar, then I would expect that things change
17:25 gonzalo: but maybe we need a new toolbar option that allows one to disable open on hover?
17:27 gonzalo walterbender: may be, put can be confusing if the user expect opening on hover, or we change the visual representation (may be putting "..." insted of "v")
17:27 walterbender notes that http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/T[…]m/Toolbar_Catalog finally finished the upload
17:27 manuq walterbender: is better!
17:28 walterbender gonzalo: I am trying to think of how it works in Visual Match, that also lets you make custom cards...
17:28 manuq walterbender: I'm working in a similar icon, with some subtle changes
17:29 walterbender gonzalo: in Visual Match, I don't load the edit screen until you hit an edit button on the secondary toolbar
17:31 manuq: please upload it to the wiki when you are done...
17:32 manuq walterbender: ok
17:34 gonzalo walterbender, and in VisualMatch you can go and back from game to build?
17:35 walterbender gonzalo: well, mostly, yes
17:36 gonzalo walterbender, why you think the save/load icons would be in the main toolbar and not in the activity toolbar?
17:37 walterbender gonzalo: I guess I want the load button with the play tools and the save button with the create tools
17:38 gonzalo bu you can load a game to modify it
17:38 and to save, you need set a name
17:39 another idea may be move to the canvas, at the top of the left side
17:39 a part with the general features of the game
17:39 Name: [        ]
17:40 Type of game: [similar images] [grouped]
17:40 ------------------------------------------------
17:41 and bottom the part where you add pairs to the game
17:41 walterbender gonzalo: I think the name of the game is different than the name of the activity instance, actually
17:41 gonzalo walterbender:yes
17:42 and if we do it
17:42 manuq so the inside canvas option may be a good idea
17:43 gonzalo we can look at the start of memorize, the list of games in the journal and add them to the combo with the examples
17:43 walterbender gonzalo: +1 to that idea
17:44 gonzalo walterbender: then we do not need a load button, only save
17:45 walterbender gonzalo: exactly
17:45 and we really don't even need a save button... we should always be saving if you are editing
17:45 but we need to have a unique name
17:46 maybe we are always saving to "custom" until you rename it...
17:47 gonzalo walterbender: or disable the controls until you put a name
17:47 walterbender gonzalo: disable what controls?
17:49 gonzalo the controls to add pairs?
17:49 mhh, would be confussing
17:49 walterbender gonzalo: I also think that would be confusing...
17:50 gonzalo: just let them edit to a default name until they give it a final name...
17:50 and as soon as they start editing, there game should be in the combo box for playing
17:50 if they rename it, it gets renamed in the combo box
17:51 but it should always save automatically
17:51 gonzalo ok
17:51 walterbender should make visual match work this way as well...
17:51 manuq if you don't put names, there may be many "custom" in the combo box
17:51 but I think it's ok
17:52 walterbender manuq: I think only one custom...
17:52 gonzalo custom 1, custom 2, custom 3
17:52 manuq right
17:52 walterbender the question is how to select which game you want to edit... whatever one is loaded in the combo box?
17:53 so on the edit toolbar, you can either edit current or edit new?
17:54 but until you choose one or the other, you don't repaint the canvas with the editing layout?
17:54 gonzalo if we open the game selected in the combo, we need a button to create a new empty game
17:54 walterbender solving the problem of disrupting the flow by hover?
17:54 gonzalo: exactly
17:55 gonzalo and will be a problem found a icon different to "create new game" and "play new game"
17:56 manuq yes the spark is for both concepts
17:57 walterbender manuq: I thought spark was for play and gear was for create
17:58 needs to further rework the Visual Match icons to better reflect this...
17:58 manuq walterbender: yes, sorry, is just my bad english
17:58 walterbender to play a custom game, you'll hit a button of a gear with a spark badge :P
17:59 will mock up a new toolbar for Visual Match to demonstrate these ideas
18:00 maybe we should wrap up for today?
18:00 gonzalo walterbender, yes i think so
18:00 manuq me too
18:00 walterbender I will respond to gonzalo's email about the launch animation...
18:00 gonzalo thanks :)
18:01 walterbender and I will make mockups for turtle art (import from Journal) and Visual match (play vs create)
18:01 manuq: can you post your refinements to the load from journal icon?
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18:01 manuq walterbender: I'll do
18:01 walterbender and I will email gary about scheduling a new time for these meetings.
18:02 does Mondays at 15UTC work for you guys? (I think that was when Sascha was hoping to meet)
18:02 gonzalo and may be manuq can propose a guide to use the gear, box, spark and journal
18:02 walterbender gonzalo: +1
18:02 gonzalo mondays we have a meeting
18:02 manuq I will
18:03 gonzalo with our team
18:03 walterbender gonzalo: what time?
18:03 manuq gonzalo: yes, until..  14 UTC?
18:03 gonzalo yes, i think is 13 UTC ?
18:03 manuq?
18:03 walterbender so after 15UTC may work?
18:04 I'll ping gary in any case to see what might work for him.
18:04 thanks for a productive discussion today.
18:04 gonzalo sorry, our meeting is at 14 UTC
18:04 manuq gonzalo: yes
18:04 walterbender gonzalo: I imagine it can run for several hours?
18:05 gonzalo is faster than the friday meeting
18:05 walterbender manuq: oh. we forgot to discuss the use of separators.
18:05 manuq walterbender: ops, yes
18:05 walterbender manuq: for next time, maybe we can prepare some proposals.
18:06 manuq walterbender: ok
18:06 gonzalo ok, let see if 15UTC is a viable option
18:06 walterbender: ok?
18:06 manuq hopefully we can have a consistent UI in the short term
18:06 gonzalo manuq, yes, i am sure we can
18:07 walterbender gonzalo: OK. I'll run it past Gary and Sascha
18:07 manuq: I think we are getting close... much better than we had been
18:07 manuq yes!
18:07 ok, thanks walterbender and gonzalo
18:07 walterbender ok... back to writing code :)
18:08 #endmeeting
18:08 meeting Meeting ended Wed Aug 10 18:08:02 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
18:08 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-10T16:10:22.html
18:08 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-08-10T16:10:22
18:08 manuq bye!
18:08 gonzalo bye!
18:09 manuq has quit IRC
18:33 tch has left #sugar-meeting
18:48 cjl walterbender  I had an idea about Distance.  Instead of measuring the distance between two fixed XO's, could you reverse that idea and input a desired distance, with the XOs giving auditory cues (or perhaps visual since sound cards are busy) when they are too close, too far apart, or just right.  More of a Tape Measure function (e.g .show me 3 meters separation).
18:49 The next level of this would be to work in the new XO 1.75 digital compass to turn two XO users into a living Turtle Art.  One acts as the fixed origin point, the other as the Turtle.  Go three meters north, go 2 meters west, etc.
18:51 walterbender cjl: cute idea.
18:52 cjl: you can enter a custom distance from the clipboard, say 1 Smoot.
18:52 cjl You could write a program to pace off a regulation soccer pitch
18:52 :-)
18:53 walterbender cjl: then you can move back and forth until you have exactly 1.00 and you are then 1 Smoot apart.
18:53 cjl walterbender: True, I was thinkign of a rising or falling auditory cue (like a metal detector, but sound is busy.
18:55 walterbender cjl: let me think about how it would work from the UI perspective...
18:55 cjl walterbender: I was inspired by "wizard's cehss" from Harry Potter.
18:56 My other thought is tha we should really have a shared chessboard Activity, with storable game state.
18:56 That would be really cool when touchpads become available.
18:57 But I thought the human Turtle Art idea would pique your interest.
18:57 I've just been trying to think of things tha would exploit the 1.75 unique features.
18:58 walterbender: Do you have any idea what the practical range of Distance is?
18:59 walterbender clj: Already wrote a TA plugin for the accelerometer :)
18:59 cjl: not much more than 10 meters, I wouldn't think, just because it needs to be able hear the sound from the other laptop.
19:00 cjl walterbender: I saw tha , which is part of the reason I floated the compass idea.  Figured you couldn't resist tinkering with new chips.
19:00 :-)
19:00 walterbender cjl: not sure if/when the compass will be available :P
19:01 satellit_ can a hearing aid type sound amplifier be used to extend range (they can be cheap)
19:01 cjl walterbender: saadia has one I think, was working on accessing the data on #olpc-devel
19:03 walterbender: If they end up wit hthe comapss on production, the Map activity will presetn an interesting upgrade possibility.
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