Web   ·   Wiki   ·   Activities   ·   Blog   ·   Lists   ·   Chat   ·   Meeting   ·   Bugs   ·   Git   ·   Translate   ·   Archive   ·   People   ·   Donate

#sugar-meeting, 2011-06-18

 « Previous day | Index | Today | Next day »     Channels | Search | Join

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:37 tch <tch!~tch@> has joined #sugar-meeting
01:13 lucian has quit IRC
04:40 tch has quit IRC
04:41 tch <tch!~tch@> has joined #sugar-meeting
07:15 cjl has quit IRC
07:28 meeting <meeting!~sugaroid@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
07:31 yama <yama!~yama@124-171-7-24.dyn.iinet.net.au> has joined #sugar-meeting
07:31 yama has quit IRC
07:31 yama <yama!~yama@ubuntu/member/yama> has joined #sugar-meeting
07:34 yama` has quit IRC
07:58 tch has quit IRC
08:47 [scs] has quit IRC
08:47 m_anish has quit IRC
08:48 bernie has quit IRC
08:48 aa has quit IRC
09:12 [scs] <[scs]!~scs@zatoichi.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
09:17 bernie <bernie!~bernie@gateway/shell/sugarlabs.org/x-fgqzkaqfuhywcvwj> has joined #sugar-meeting
09:18 aa <aa!~aa@gateway/shell/sugarlabs.org/x-ktnwwebqnbppwnbf> has joined #sugar-meeting
09:18 m_anish <m_anish!~anish@gateway/shell/sugarlabs.org/x-yfdqtnobekqzopej> has joined #sugar-meeting
09:54 tch <tch!~tch@> has joined #sugar-meeting
11:14 silbe <silbe!~silbe@2001:6f8:120a:0:21f:d0ff:fe53:f5a2> has joined #sugar-meeting
12:52 lucian <lucian!~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:00 dfarning <dfarning!~dfarning@r200-40-240-96.su-static.anteldata.net.uy> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:01 dfarning alsroot, bernie, lucian, m_anish, silbe, tch ping
14:01 lucian pong
14:01 alsroot is here
14:02 dfarning nice. I am in line for my flight :( so I will lose connectivity in a few minutes.
14:03 lucian, how do you feel about working from UY?
14:03 lucian dfarning: so far, ok. it depends on the terms of the contract and timing
14:03 dfarning lucian there is an interesting opertunity working with a UY organization on accessibility.
14:04 lucian great, I'll im/email you with the details ASAP.
14:05 lucian dfarning: ok
14:06 dfarning alsroot, any preference where you live?
14:06 yama hi all
14:07 dfarning hey yama good to see you, must be late :)
14:07 yama 12am here :)
14:07 icarito <icarito!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:07 dfarning icarito good morning.
14:08 icarito hi dfarning sorry I'm late :-)
14:08 alsroot dfarning: as you already might be assured, only good connectivity and quiet place :)
14:08 cjl <cjl!~chatzilla@c-98-204-202-184.hsd1.md.comcast.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:09 icarito i was out planting pineapples :-)
14:09 dfarning yama, I am going to lose connectivity in a few minutes as I board my plane. I sent out the meeting angenda a few minutes ago.
14:09 yama dfarning: ok
14:10 dfarning it will mostly be about  dx3 dx12 issues.... since you are here today icarito might want to start the meeting looking at activity related issues with you.
14:11 yama sure
14:12 dfarning icarito ^^ sound good?
14:12 alsroot yes. I noticed you are extreamly flexible :)
14:13 icarito yes fun at the farm, quiet place, no good connectivity :-)
14:13 dfarning got to run finall boarding call :)
14:13 icarito which is much like most of our deployment sites :-)
14:14 have a safe trip!
14:14 yama have a safe flight dfarning
14:14 dfarning icarito soory for the short notice. can you chair the meeting?\
14:14 lucian dfarning: and a safe landing :)
14:14 dfarning thanks for everything.
14:14 dfarning has quit IRC
14:17 cjl Is there a meeting about to begin, or has it just ended?
14:18 icarito I was reading the backlog
14:18 I will chair the meeting then I guess
14:18 :-)
14:18 cjl icarito: Whihc meetign, if you don't mind me asking
14:19 icarito_ <icarito_!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:19 icarito_ sorry lost connection there
14:20 cjl: the activity central weekly meeting
14:20 silbe, tch m_anish u around?
14:21 we have an agenda
14:21 cjl icarito Thanks, I'll shut up now, other than to say that dirakx1 has done essential work for the L10n community, which is appreciated.
14:22 icarito_ dirakx1, alsroot, maybe you around?
14:22 yama where is the agenda?
14:22 icarito has quit IRC
14:22 alsroot icarito_: yup
14:23 icarito_ lets startmeeting
14:23 icarito_ is now known as icarito
14:23 alsroot preliminary agenda, http://fpaste.org/Bq7o/
14:24 icarito I have a not very good connection and some lag so I appreciate your participation to make this fluid
14:24 thanks alsroot
14:24 so lets skip for now dextrose topic until silbe and/or tch show up
14:25 yama,cjl: you're welcome to add a topic if you like, as anyone
14:25 alsroot icarito: try #startmeeding
14:25 *startmeeting
14:25 icarito #startmeeting
14:25 meeting Meeting started Sat Jun 18 14:25:20 2011 UTC. The chair is icarito. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:25 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:25 cjl nods
14:25 icarito #topic agenda #link http://fpaste.org/Bq7o/
14:26 alsroot: second topic on list is server project
14:26 i'm excited to have read the discussions
14:26 alsroot #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Server/1/Todo
14:26 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Server/1/Roadmap
14:26 icarito #topic sugar server project
14:27 alsroot ^^ this is schedule for Sugar Server v1.0 release
14:27 silbe tunes in; sorry for the delay.
14:27 icarito reading
14:27 alsroot Sugar Server is entirely community project, ie, not product
14:28 the next 3months after releasing Sugar Sever 1.0, I'm planing to work on a product - Dextrose Server which will be based on Sugar Server
14:28 icarito interesting distinction
14:28 alsroot ..and on Sugar Server 1.1 that should be ready for deployment
14:29 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/T[…]rver/Architecture
14:29 yama alsroot: as mentioned on the lists, we (OLPCAU) are interested in a simple collaboration server that we can distribute as an appliance. How far do you think Sugar Server is off from that?
14:29 alsroot ^, about Sugar Server
14:29 icarito I really like this approach of doing an upstream project and a downstream product
14:30 alsroot yama: should it look like a block boxes at schools?
14:30 yama alsroot: basically, yes
14:30 teachers shouldn't have to care about technical details
14:30 and we don't need fancy stuff like moodle
14:31 we just want a simple plug-and-play solution
14:31 alsroot yama: it should be possible to use Sugar Server's components to cook such product, ie, only jabber and registration sugar service
14:31 silbe yama: what else besides the Jabber server do you need? (ejabberd + config file should be enough for that)
14:31 alsroot yama: and after releasing Sugar Server 1.0, ie, for Dextrose Server I'm planoing to follow exactly this way (black boxes/plug-and-play solution)
14:32 yama silbe: I think that's all we really need. Very basic.
14:32 at least to begin with
14:32 alsroot: how would Sugar/Dextrose Server be installed, if it is distro agnostic?
14:32 icarito silbe, alsroot - I bought a cheap router capable of running openwrt (i.e. gnu+linux) - can this suffice for yama's need?
14:32 yama alsroot: and I am still unclear about the difference between Sugar and Dextrose servers
14:32 icarito: interesting idea
14:33 like dd-wrt type thing
14:33 icarito maybe ejabberd is in openwrt's repositories
14:33 alsroot yama: Sugar Server is just a project (ie packages to use in downstream), so your Q is only about DS, for DS I'm going to have verry straight forward solution, ie, plug-and-play
14:33 silbe icarito: I doubt your router has enough RAM for ejabberd. OpenRD (512MB) is fine, but routers tend to have O(16MB).
14:34 alsroot silbe: see jita's minin graphs about how it is for ejabberd vs. prosody, I'm planign to use prosody
14:34 yama we were thinking of using an XO as the appliance hardware
14:34 would be easier to deal with since we're already stocking it
14:34 no extra inventory
14:34 alsroot yama: btw, having Fedora-on-XO is in my plan for DS
14:35 yama alsroot: nice
14:35 alsroot *Fedora-on-XO image
14:35 yama is there an up-to-date roadmap?
14:36 is http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Server/1/Roadmap still correct?
14:36 alsroot yama: only for Sugar Server, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Server/1/Todo http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Server/1/Roadmap
14:36 yama: ie, DS work will start in 2months
14:36 yama ok, so DS starts after Sugar Server is ready?
14:36 silbe alsroot: where can I see the difference between ejabberd and Prosody on http://munin.sugarlabs.org/sug[…]ta.sugarlabs.org/ ?
14:37 alsroot yama: yup, since it is based on it
14:37 yama alsroot: still not clear on what's wrong with ejabberd
14:37 icarito dirakx1: u around?
14:37 alsroot silbe: http://munin.sugarlabs.org/sug[…]labs.org/cpu.html
14:37 yama still feels like we're re-architecting something that already works
14:37 cjl coughs
14:37 yama I'm happy to be proven wrong :)
14:38 alsroot yama: well, at first erlang is a beast that keep used memory as simple as possible
14:38 cjl I would note tha tyou guys want to maintain good realations with Martin Langhoff and track XS work
14:38 alsroot ..ie it is not its priority
14:38 silbe alsroot: I guess you switched from ejabberd to Prosody around week 22?
14:38 alsroot yama: the reason to use prosody instead of ejabberd, is keeping mem/cpu usage as small as possible, esp. on XO
14:39 silbe: /me thinks it is pretty clear :)
14:39 icarito alsroot: so sugar runs well with prosody? (what's prosody written in?)
14:39 yama alsroot: that means it'll work better in appliance situations?
14:39 i.e. on low-cost devices?
14:39 alsroot icarito: all jabber.sl.o client work well (keeping in mind 0.9x issue)
14:40 cjl coughs louder
14:40 alsroot yama: you, proosudy is much simple and relieble in case of setup and maitain
14:40 cjl Yuu want to take advantage of the experience gained from the XS installs tha have been done in the field.
14:41 icarito google suggests there are prosody packages for openwrt
14:41 silbe alsroot: CPU usage seems to have improved indeed, memory usage isn't as clear (the latest figures are similar to those before the switch)
14:41 yama how many clients do you think an XS-on-XO can handle reliably?
14:41 icarito it might be worth a try, maybe a router with USB so you can have thumbdrive or harddisk for swap memory and some storage
14:41 alsroot cjl: the thing is that I didn't assumptiuon (due to XS design), that it is targeting to plug-and-play solution
14:42 yama: the target for Sugar Server is up to 1K
14:42 icarito alsroot: are you targeting a particular use case first?
14:42 alsroot ie, it uses dnsmask and prosody vs. bind + dhcpd + ejjaberd
14:42 yama alsroot: with an XO as the server?
14:42 alsroot yama: yup
14:43 icarito: just black boxes to serve basic sugar related services
14:43 yama alsroot: what about using the XO's WLAN as the AP?
14:43 icarito more questions regarding server?
14:43 silbe yama: somebody has done a benchmark answering that question (plus for a few other servers), though personally I don't think they data they collected is very useful (nobody wants to wait 5 minutes for a page to load).
14:44 alsroot yama: might be, but it sounds more a task for DS not for Sugar Server
14:44 yama I would think that the XO WLAN is the main limiter
14:44 alsroot silbe: in my plan for sugar Server 1.0 to have system [intergration] tests, so we will see
14:44 yama I'd be surprised if it can reliably handle >30 XO clients
14:45 silbe yama: libertas_tf can do that in theory, but unfortunately the upstreaming efforts were aborted (for both XO-1.5 and XO-1) AFAICT.
14:45 icarito ana said in the list and I think I remember the same, the non-free drivers of libertas (firmware) does not support hostap mode
14:45 alsroot yama: in any case, the plan is having decent system intergration test infra to see how many client will bear on XO
14:45 *one
14:46 icarito is now known as icarito_
14:46 icarito_ is now known as icarito
14:46 silbe icarito: there's no free firmware for libertas; just a full-MAC (handles everything) and a soft-MAC (handles only the most basic operations) one. :-/
14:46 yama just to make you guys aware, my priority over the next 12 months is to ensure solid collaboration and connectivity
14:46 that'll guide my preferences
14:46 icarito dirakx1, tch u guys here?
14:47 silbe yama: good to know. We'll be working on the connectivity side (NM 0.9) while OLPC is currently working on the Collaboration front (Telepathy).
14:47 alsroot yama: there is server/sugaroid project within Sugar Server, it should mimic the regualr sugar user behaviour to test server infra
14:47 icarito #info yama's focus on collaboration and connectivity
14:47 alsroot yama: it will be used in sugar server system tests infra
14:48 ie, it might be simulate tp connections that might happen in the field
14:48 yama alsroot: cool, we really want solid QA
14:48 some of you may have heard of the testing framework I gave to dfarning?
14:49 icarito yama: do you plan on working collaboration in specific activities, or online?
14:49 alsroot doesn't
14:49 yama: could you resend it to public lists
14:50 icarito we have other 2 topics to cover
14:51 silbe: do you want to wait for tch or should we cover dextrose plans?
14:51 yama alsroot: haven't made it too public yet
14:51 icarito: collaboration between XOs, with and without an XS. Also Internet connectivity.
14:52 not collaboration over Internet at this point
14:52 silbe icarito: we can start if we don't have any other topics left; otherwise I'd like to wait for tch some more
14:52 alsroot cjl: btw, if system integration tests will see that ejabberd is more effective in case of mem/cpu usage (for Sugar Server targeted env, ie, up to 1K users for one XO), it should be obvious that ejabberd is the winner :)
14:52 *will show
14:53 is not sure in that though
14:54 icarito +1 for test driven dev
14:55 yama +1 on that
14:55 icarito silbe: so I will discuss activities then
14:57 alsroot, anything to add? note that it is important that we share with OLPC's XS team, this is in part the goal of having a sugar server, cjl, if I understand this
14:57 yama dirakx1 has been really helpful with our activities needs
14:57 icarito #topic activities
14:57 good to hear yama
14:58 cjl icarito: +1
14:58 yama we're tied up with XO OS stuff right now, so don't feel bad if we aren't active in XS stuff for a little while
14:58 hoping to pass a lot of the activities and XO OS stuff to you guys (AC)
14:59 one thing that seems to be missing is the ability to save preferences for an activity so that the settings persist across (un)install and upgrades
14:59 icarito yama: love to hear that - we are working on our dev process
15:00 i feel activities production has a chance to mature into being built by teams
15:00 I am working on a framework for RAD - Rapid Activities Development :-P
15:01 I sent email to the dextrose list last night
15:01 yama icarito: right now I'm focused on business and tech plans for the next financial year (current FY ends on June 30). After that we'll be more free to collaborate with you guys.
15:01 icarito alsroot fwd it to sugar-devel
15:01 silbe yama: loosing the settings across *un*install is intentional (some activities store quite a lot). Anything else on the activity level should leave the settings intact (unless the activity itself breaks compatibility).
15:01 alsroot yama: there is an intention to have shared object (in addition to full backup), ie, some journal object will be on the server/user's-usb
15:02 icarito yama yes for distributed teams its very important to collaborate effectively
15:02 silbe yama: Keeping the settings across OS updates is a matter of keeping $HOME across the updates.
15:03 icarito looks up archive link for Sugar WebSDK plans
15:03 yama silbe: for most things that's fine. dirakx1 got the english_rp voice working in Speak for us. I'd like that to be selected by default.
15:03 otherwise Speak sounds American, which isn't useful for us
15:03 icarito #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]-June/001311.html
15:04 alsroot yama: do you have, in AU, some ideas for "so that the settings persist across (un)install and upgrades" to share?
15:04 there is http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]res/Smart_Objects for that reason
15:04 silbe yama: Sounds more like you'd like Speak to choose a different voice based on the current locale (which should be different between US and AU), not a regular setting.
15:04 icarito we can help you set up your activity repository with your customizations
15:06 Not sure WebSDK is a good name - the idea is not yet-another-api for sugar
15:06 yama right now our repo is at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Acti[…]ies/OLPCAU/10.1.3
15:06 suggestions for optimisations are welcome
15:07 icarito I don't plan on binding sugar to javascript either - but alsroot already has some work on pulyol which is a sugar-toolkit api in gobject-introspection
15:08 yama, i'm doing this framework with the objective of providing an offline activity catalogue
15:08 alsroot icarito: actually my intention was not exactly to use polyol in JS but just doing the same what KDE/gnome3 people do for web methids integration to theirs DEs
15:08 icarito only generalizing the solution so we can quickly design activities with a webkit-based rendering engine
15:09 alsroot: yes but there is a slight confusion, i'm not really that interested in using javascript for accessing sugar but rather webkit as a rendering engine
15:10 so I think probably it is not my goal here
15:10 lucian icarito: tthen you might be interested in pyjamas desktop
15:10 icarito alsroot: but if it comes for free, then all the better :-)
15:11 yama +1 for integrating webkit
15:11 that opens all kinds of awesome possibilities
15:11 icarito lucian: also researched that, and it does seem quite interesting - but also secondary - I dont want to learn yet another declarative UI language
15:11 lucian icarito: so you want webkit instead of gtk for the GUI, but you're fine with python
15:11 icarito: pyjamas desktop lets you use html&css
15:11 icarito one way to distributing work on activities is separating graphic, UI design from actual functionality
15:11 lucian you could easily roll your own, just embed webkit
15:12 icarito lucian: your input is particularly interesting - I also think this is within easy reach
15:12 yama Is this similar to how Flash activities can be written using gnash?
15:12 lucian i mean, it's been done before. look at xul ...
15:13 yama: it's more similar to forking Browse
15:13 icarito so I want to make it even easier, provide a simple hello world activity
15:13 yama: very similar
15:13 lucian in fact, i had a project 'webified' over gsoc a few years ago
15:13 cjl yama about Speak accents see http://espeak.sourceforge.net/languages.html
15:14 icarito so you could have designers work on all the graphic bits
15:14 I will work on the glue underneath
15:14 yama cjl: yes, that's where I got the idea of using en-rp from :)
15:14 icarito first case study will be doing the activity catalogue
15:15 lucian sure, it'd work. but i've been disappointed by xul/html for desktop UIs, personally
15:15 i don't see the advantage over QML/glade
15:15 icarito lucian: the advantage is not technical but social - there are huge dev resources available in the html/css design world
15:15 they are good and know their tools
15:15 lucian icarito: if you really wanted, you could provide a browser fork and sugar bindings to JS
15:16 icarito: but there are big headaches with security. i'd recommend not providing js bindings
15:16 silbe doesn't look like tch will join in :-/ Should we do the Dextrose topic anyway?
15:17 lucian one could implement something similar to chrome's shortcuts, and i have partly done that with webified
15:17 icarito yes if you really wanted, but i'm not concerned with the business logic part, any good dev can make python do incredible things, but devs aren't good at UI design
15:17 lucian: I tried webified as well
15:18 did not see that part, what are chrome's shortcuts?
15:18 lucian icarito: uh, just SSBs, mostly
15:18 the advantage is that chrome also has extensions with good security
15:18 yama if we could use/port Web apps, we'd have a much larger developer base
15:18 icarito silbe: I think we should cover dextrose, what you can, tch can update anytime, also we read his email about this this week
15:19 yama e.g. if we could run ChromeOS apps
15:19 +1 for discussing dextrose
15:19 lucian yama: you'd need chrome for that, really
15:19 silbe icarito: ok, let's start then.
15:19 icarito yama glad you agree its a good approach
15:19 #topic dextrose
15:20 silbe: you have the mic
15:20 silbe I've finished a first pass of identifying patches that are in DX2, but not in DX3 yet and worth porting.
15:22 Unfortunately, quite a lot of the interesting features are spread over several patches with totally different file names so I'll need to compare against the spec file to combine them into a single patch before I can take a more in-depth look at them.
15:22 icarito silbe: i'm confused with dx2 dx12 dx3 can you clarify a bit ?
15:23 dx12 = dx3?
15:23 silbe It would be great if the respective authors could provide me with combined patches - especially for microformat updater, Notifications and Feedback.
15:24 yama how are DX activities updated right now?
15:24 do they use the microformat updater?
15:25 silbe icarito: DX2 = current stable release. DX3 = current development version, upcoming stable release. DX12 = next development version, to be released in December 2011 => for academic year (20)12.
15:26 yama: both DX2 and DX3 do use the microformat updater, yes.
15:26 icarito lucian, silbe while studying web toolkits, I was convinced the approach for browsers is all wrong. instead of coding our own browser, we should provide patches, for instance an extension to XUL that does journal and modifies the gui a bit
15:27 silbe No news this week w.r.t. NM 0.9; we discussed other topics during the Design Team meeting last week.
15:27 icarito the work silbe was doing on making non-sugar apps run well on sugar is also important
15:27 lucian icarito: yes, i said that too in an email
15:27 icarito: firefox is made for extending, not embedding
15:27 but for webkit, it does make sense to embed
15:27 icarito lucian: ah yes I remember I read that from you as well
15:28 lucian for chrome? i don't know. it's very odd
15:28 i think there was an oss startup embedding chrome, they were selling a laptop thing
15:29 icarito silbe: is it in your plans to add better non-sugar integration?
15:29 I think this would be a great feature
15:29 silbe It would be great if somebody could take over doing distribution level work. I can do it, but it takes time away from my other work like porting / cleaning up patches and working with the Design Team.
15:29 icarito of course its big
15:29 silbe (or as is the case currently, I don't do new builds because I'm busy with those other tasks)
15:30 icarito silbe: what does that entail?
15:30 silbe icarito: add to what? Sugar? Browse?
15:30 icarito distribution level work?
15:30 Sugar and/or Dextrose
15:31 silbe for instance, we could provide a sugar icon theme for applications and use the default xdg icon instead of the gray circle
15:32 silbe icarito: doing builds, tracking OLPC releases and upstream tickets to make sure fixes make it into Dextrose, ...
15:32 icarito and also provide a way to launch non sugar apps
15:33 silbe icarito: for Sugar I do plan better non-Sugar application integration; unfortunately I haven't had much time lately to work on it. Though I'd count my recent popup fixes as part of that work: I can now run Sugar inside notion (a tiling window manager).
15:33 icarito silbe: is there any way the workflow could be better to make this chore more fun?
15:34 silbe icarito: I believe you already tried my patch for running XDG applications from the Favourites view
15:35 anything left to discuss for our current Dextrose work?
15:35 icarito yes it clashes a bit with walter's for going back to favorites home view from list view
15:35 yama I'd like to discuss roadmaps
15:35 is there a roadmap for DX12?
15:35 silbe icarito: oh. I'll take a look later.
15:36 yama: W.r.t. the time line we'll mostly align with the OLPC one. I don't think they have done one for the December release yet, though.
15:37 yama In terms of time lines, we need a DX12 with AU customisations ready for deployment before the start of the new school year in *January*. That includes porting all additional functionality that we have added in our XO-AU releases. That shouldn't be hard to do. Some of our stuff might be better done differently.
15:37 silbe yama: as for what we're going to work on, there has been no decision yet, but my priority will be NM 0.9 integration.
15:37 yama if it's not available by January, Australian teachers won't have time to implement it :(
15:39 silbe yama: is there a git repository or some other way to look at your patches? Anything in particular that you expect to be potentially troublesome to port to DX12?
15:39 yama silbe: https://dev.laptop.org.au/proj[…]/xo-au/repository
15:39 I think it should all be simple
15:39 icarito #info australian teachers need dx12 by january to implement it
15:40 yama we're trying to upstream as much as we can
15:40 but we need to be sure that what we've been upstreaming to OLPC is available in DX12
15:40 silbe yama: thanks! I'll take a look at it.
15:40 icarito yama I saw olpcau's video
15:40 yama we've also done cool stuff with OS Builder that I think you'll like :)
15:40 icarito so you're going to scale from 1500 machines to how many?
15:40 yama icarito: did you like it? :)
15:41 icarito: we've got over 5000 XOs now. Aiming for 300,000 by 2014.
15:41 icarito yes very inspiring yet informational
15:42 cjl icarito School year starts in Jan, I would give yourself testing time before that, besdies peopel are busy in December
15:42 icarito yama are you affiliated with olpc association, or foundation, or are you independent?
15:42 yama icarito: we're independent
15:43 icarito cjl +1
15:43 yama but OLPC approved
15:43 silbe yama: We rebase on OLPC for every release and usually pass through all their changes during development as well. So everything you manage to upstream should make it into DX. If there's anything missing, please give me a heads-up.
15:44 cjl yama please work on recruiting me some locaizers :-)  Especially Oceanic and SE Asian langs
15:44 yama cjl: we're trying but it's not easy :(
15:44 icarito are we about ready to wrap up?
15:44 cjl I know
15:44 silbe yama: ideally, you should start basing a development release on DX12 as soon as we publish the first build. This ensures maximum testing for both DX and XO-AU.
15:45 yama cjl: although we're focused on English anyway
15:45 cjl yama Consider it community service
15:45 yama silbe: that's my thought, yes
15:45 cjl: my current role is more than a full-time job, sadly
15:45 cjl yaam, then recruit people to recruit :-)
15:45 silbe icarito: fine with me - anything else you'd like to talk about during the meeting, yama?
15:46 icarito #topic misc
15:46 yama BTW, I'm going to be completely unavailable (on holiday) in August and September, and will have lots of catch-up in October. I need to be sure that everything is going well.
15:46 i.e. with me gone there'll be no direct technical management in OLPC AU for that period
15:47 silbe yama: ok, we should make sure we meet in July to plan ahead then.
15:47 yama silbe: cool
15:47 I'm working overtime to make sure that everything is in place before August
15:47 and we also have our existing OS to support
15:47 icarito m_anish will be on vacation as well, congratulations to both
15:48 m_anish until june 27th
15:48 yama I'm gone from Aug 11 to Oct 4
15:49 icarito #info yama unavailable from aug 11 to oct 4 - m_anish until june 27th
15:49 silbe yama: https://dev.laptop.org.au/proj[…]/xo-au/repository looks like it's based on a git repository, but I can't a git url. Is the repository public?
15:49 icarito just wanted to wish good luck to the AC rolling stones, relocators lucian dfarning, m_anish and alsroot
15:50 silbe icarito: +1
15:50 lucian icarito: uh, thanks. i'm not sure i'll be relocating yet, though :)
15:50 yama silbe: https://git.laptop.org.au/ - just realised there's no public git access
15:50 silbe: if you make an account at dev.laptop.org.au you should be able to see the repo
15:51 I'll get that fixed
15:51 silbe yama: ok, thanks, will try.
15:51 icarito you guys are a fun bunch
15:51 yama silbe: let me know if you still have trouble
15:51 icarito guess we are about ready to close then
15:51 any last words?
15:52 yama one last thing
15:52 we'd really like the OS available in a VM form
15:52 cjl On the whole, I'd rather be in Philadelphia. . .WC Fields tombstone
15:52 yama i.e. a VM that looks and behaves exactly as it would on an XO
15:53 SoaS is not close enough
15:53 silbe yama: me too - would aid testing a lot. Unfortunately I got stuck on some weird boot issue the last time I tried...
15:53 (early boot that is)
15:53 yama I got this far: https://dev.laptop.org.au/proj[…]i/Virtual_machine
15:53 Sugar loaded to the name screen
15:53 but couldn't get to the Home screen
15:54 icarito +1 - silbe maybe if there would be a dextrose soas image
15:54 silbe yama: ah, interesting, so you're trying to manually replicate the customisations OOB is doing at build time after installation...
15:55 yama silbe: I think it would be better if the OS Builder could pump out a VM image
15:55 a VM is just another hardware platform
15:55 silbe icarito: a SoaS image would be quite different due to the way it works.
15:56 yama: I have patches to do that - unfortunately the resulting image doesn't boot. It segfaults inside the initrd.
15:56 yama silbe: have you tried substituting in a standard Fedora kernel?
15:57 i.e. not an XO kernel
15:57 silbe yama: that is with the standard Fedora kernel
15:57 I don't think an XO one would even boot
15:57 yama I wouldn't think it would
15:57 amongst other things, we really want interactive whiteboards support
15:58 if the teacher could run a VM on their laptop, that would work
15:58 icarito_ <icarito_!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:58 yama their Windows laptop has all the proprietary interactive whiteboards software installed, which could be used with the VM
15:59 much better than installing that stuff on an XO
15:59 icarito_ sorry lost my connection again
15:59 silbe yama: help with debugging the segfault issue would be appreciated. Once it boots, most stuff should just work.
15:59 yama a VM also provides a user and development enviornment for people who don't have an XO
16:00 tch Hello guys !
16:00 silbe tch: finally!
16:00 tch: nice to see you
16:00 icarito_ #info having a build that boots in vm would be useful for yama
16:00 yama silbe: do you have your results/errors posted somewhere?
16:00 silbe yama: I posted on the OLPC devel list a while back
16:01 icarito_ tch im about to endmeeting :-)
16:01 tch haha, ill be quick then :)
16:01 icarito has quit IRC
16:01 yama tch: I'm very interested in your work on mounting network file shares, and on accessing ~/Documents in Sugar
16:02 tch basically this week i have been researching about different options for that :)
16:02 yama tch: any chance that stuff will be available in DX12?
16:02 icarito_ i will do endmeeting and then we can go on informally
16:03 thanks everyone
16:03 tch icarito_: thank you :D hehe
16:03 icarito_ #endmeeting
16:03 icarito_ is now known as icarito
16:03 tch yama: we should do our best to make it happen ;)
16:03 icarito #endmeeting
16:03 meeting Meeting ended Sat Jun 18 16:03:53 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:03 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-18T14:25:20.html
16:03 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-06-18T14:25:20
16:04 silbe yama: I used the following patch on top of the dextrose repo: https://sascha.silbe.org/tmp/0[…]grub-Fedora.patch
16:04 icarito what's wrong with meeting?
16:04 silbe yama: git://git.sugarlabs.org/dextrose/mainline.git branch dextrose-3
16:05 tch silbe: btw, is there any specific topic (from my dx ml) that you want me to take care of? ;)
16:05 silbe yama: Not all of my patches that are a prerequisite for the WIP patch were accepted upstream, so you really need the dextrose repo.
16:06 icarito away, cheers, will be around tho
16:06 silbe tch: Combining your patches into a single patch per feature (Notification, Feedback, etc.) would be much appreciated. And m_anish ones, too, as he seem to be on holiday.
16:07 tch silbe: but are those patches already ported to 0.9x base?
16:07 silbe: if so, where can i get them :) if not, np
16:07 silbe tch: not yet, that's the point. :)
16:08 tch silbe: ok, np then it just didn't seem clear on the ml :)
16:08 btw, didn't know about datastore-fuse :)
16:09 silbe: ^
16:09 silbe tch: those patches that are already included in DX3 have been ported to 0.92 already (naturally)
16:09 tch silbe: great :)
16:10 silbe tch: those that aren't included currently live in the dextrose repo, spread out over several patches with different names that make it hard to figure out how they relate to each other (i.e. one needs to look them up one by one in the spec file). Those haven't been ported to 0.92 yet.
16:11 yama I think from my last discussion with silbe, we thought that Documents-folder-in-Journal would be a good shorter-term solution, and datastore-fuse might be better long-term
16:12 tch silbe: ok, can you send me a link where your patchwork is?
16:12 silbe tch: I thought I mentioned it a few times already, but can't find it in my logs, so maybe I pestered somebody else. ;)
16:13 tch yama, silbe: I didn't get the chance to test datastore-fuse but, If I understand correctly, it shows the DS content as the native FS (probably with folder creation/visualization)
16:13 silbe yama: that's the plan exactly. I hope garycmartin can join the Design Team meeting tomorrow (he was absent last week) so we can discuss the ~/Documents integration design again.
16:13 tch silbe: right?
16:14 silbe tch: all Journal entries are accessible as files in the mounted directory, exactly. You can also browse by tags.
16:14 tch: patchwork?
16:16 tch silbe: nice means that cover the problem of accessing journal outside of sugar, if you ask me is _the_ solution
16:17 yama, silbe: right now I am doing a little different, I am writing a quick network FS with fuse to see how it could work
16:18 silbe tch: that's why I wrote it. It needs some improvements (including better performance) before it's ready to be included and activitated by default in Dextrose, though.
16:18 tch: why don't you use sshfs or fusedav?
16:19 tch silbe: I want to avoid sys admin interation, since there not sysadmins in schools (at least from my experiencie)
16:20 yama +1
16:20 tch silbe: and obviously not getting married with any overkill backend
16:20 yama a central design assumption I always make is that there is *no* technical expertise available at a school
16:21 cjl Do you guys consider remote admin capabilities?
16:21 yama many of our schools are lucky to get a technician once per term (i.e. 4 times a year)
16:21 silbe yama: https://git.laptop.org.au/ doesn't accept my https://dev.laptop.org.au/ credentials. Does it take some time to propagate (I just activated the account) or would I need additional permissions?
16:21 yama cjl: not too practical for many things
16:21 cjl yama, no connectivity?
16:21 yama cjl: and not all schools have Internet
16:21 cjl Ok
16:21 tch cjl: the only sysadmin i ever knew was "puppet" haha
16:22 cjl Remote desktop HelpDesk is a nice feature for supporting remote clients
16:22 silbe tch: you need someone with root privileges to install fuse and grant permissions to the user anyway. At least on Debian users need to be added to the "fuse" group.
16:22 yama silbe: looking into it. I don't think we had that problem before...
16:23 anything network-oriented must also assume that the connection will be intermittent
16:23 silbe yama: thanks!
16:23 yama the main network FSs are made for LANs and assume network reliability
16:24 if the network isn't reliable, it all goes to hell
16:24 in the case of XOs, kids are going on an off the network all the time. XO power management is very aggressive, and the WLAN is turned off automatically on idle
16:25 cjl Then you want a box where the best admin procedure is reboot by unplugging
16:25 silbe yama: it's hard to work with intermittent connections on the VFS layer. Much better to move up the stack into the applications, e.g. a WebDAV client in the Journal.
16:25 yama silbe: that's what I was thinking
16:26 cjl Power-cycle is often the best HelpDesk advice you can give :-)  Especially in Windows.
16:27 yama silbe: looks like there's something wrong with our git repo. I can't access it with my credential either. I'll let you know when it's fixed.
16:27 tch yama: exactly, that is why I am trying an xml-rpc (could be simple http or json-rpc too) fuse option,
16:27 cjl You want to be sure not to have fussy webservers that require restarts often (apache, Django, etc.)
16:28 silbe tch: why a special server? Stock Apache (and maybe even IIS) supports WebDAV. Should be easier to set up.
16:29 (as much as I dislike Apache)
16:30 cjl silbe beware of Apache, I like it just fine, but I have had to bounce Tomcat so many times to revive web-based speciality apps so many times, it's not funny.
16:30 wonders if he said so many times enough. . .
16:31 I have also not seen the greatest b3ehavior in that regard from Django (Poolte, booki)
16:32 tch silbe: i still need to take a deeper look into webdav to be honest, but if is not too overkill and can provide things like virtual-users, private-storage, quota, filters to file types and sizes ... it would be the option
16:32 cjl I'm dwelling on this, because these web-services instabilities of things you assume should "just work" eventually become a real thorn in your side.
16:34 I like WebDav, but mostly because in a Windows environment, it makes IE act just like Windows Explorer
16:34 silbe cjl: WebDAV should be low-level enough not to be a problem. The issues you mention sound like they are the fault of layers above Apache.
16:34 icarito has quit IRC
16:34 cjl I've used it to set up remote collaboration "folders" between two pharmaceutical companies and the users loved it.
16:34 lucian fwiw, svn is based on webdav
16:35 silbe the advantage of WebDAV is that it's a standard protocol. There a both clients _and_ servers that already speak it and get maintained by somebody else.
16:35 cjl silbe: Just sharing painful memories :-(
16:36 yama yes, and AU schools have Windows servers
16:36 silbe cjl: I do have quite a few painful memories of my own. I know why I don't run it. But if you're scarce on sysadmin resources, using special software usually isn't a good idea.
16:36 yama IIS supports webdav
16:37 cjl SibYes, but when you are running a pharma company IT shop, you are scarce on resources and running speciality software is a requirement.
16:39 yama the schools here have their own network resources that we can leverage. That avoids duplication and makes it easier for us.
16:39 if we can just ask them to turn on WebDAV on their Windows servers, that's easy for us
16:39 cjl My answer was usually to reach upstream to my vendors and make sure stability was a priority.  I was such a PITA t oone vendor they put me on their Scientific Advisory Board :-)
16:40 yama the other alternative to WebDAV would be CIFS, but that doesn't handle intermittent connections well - you get lockups, etc.
16:41 lucian or ftp, maybe
16:41 cjl yama, the one thing to think about carefully is the management of WebDAV access on Windows using groups.  Permissions mgmt can be a time consuming issue if you don't get it right from the beginning.
16:54 tch see you later guys, :)
16:54 silbe tch: BTW: git://git.silbe.org/journal2webdav
16:54 tch silbe: that was fast ;)
16:55 silbe tch: I already wrote that some time ago (when we last talked about it), but now I show the title instead of the object_id. I.e. the first version that is at least of some use to users.
16:56 cjl: lol (advisory board)
16:57 tch silbe: nice i will give it a try! I promise to share my laugh-able but novel approach too haha during the weekend
16:57 lucian_ <lucian_!~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:57 cjl silbe: Totally true, but it was more cause I was helpful in a PITA way.  Artus Labs (electronic lab notebook) company jsut sold t oPerkin Elmer.  Got a nic echeck when my options wer bought off.
16:57 silbe cjl: not sure about yamas exact use case, but I'd expect such a school server setup to be pretty open and "permissions" issues to be handled on the social side rather than the technical one.
16:57 cjl That and some awesome SAB meetings (Belize, Roatan), the CEO is a diver :-)
16:58 lucian has quit IRC
16:58 silbe tch: Holding my breath :)
16:58 yama silbe: that's what I'm thinking, but depends on what the sysadmins want
16:58 cjl silbe: Yes, but setting up permissions in an open way (esp on a Windows box) takes careful thought.
16:59 silbe cjl: the same is true of any IIS installation. AFAICT WebDAV doesn't add any additional risk.
16:59 cjl And gettign the box admin to go along with you is social engineering of another sort altogether
16:59 silbe so if they already run IIS, adding WebDAV shouldn't be an issue.
17:00 cjl silbe: No doubt, but Windows admins tend to be a littel more scared than Linus admins
17:01 silbe: I am not making the technical argument, I bow to your expertise there.
17:01 silbe cjl: that problem exists independent of what software to use - on the contrary, they are more likely to enable something in the software they already run and are used to than to install new software.
17:01 cjl silbe: That is true.
17:02 Often the issue is not so much the sysadmin as the network admin
17:02 That is one of the advantages of WebDAV
17:03 If you need to open special ports i nthe firewall, it is often a non-starter.
17:03 silbe cjl: actually I'm worrying more about the social part than the technical one here. A special protocol might be a superior technical alternative (not necessarily, though).
17:04 cjl silbe: I think that we agree, the social engineering is often more diffficult than the network engineering
17:04 silbe cjl: +1, since WebDav can run over the already-open HTTP port, firewalls are less of an headache.
17:05 cjl silbe: =1
17:05 silbe cjl: definitely :-/
17:05 cjl silbe: +1
17:06 yama my strategy is to be low-impact on the education networks
17:06 cjl My experience is mostly from working in pharma industry (read running slightly less than cutting edge because of conservatism and high levels of paranoia).
17:06 yama we don't have enough influence to expect them to do much for us
17:06 we hope that'll change as we get more XOs out there, but we only have 5000 now
17:07 cjl My more recent experience has been trying to get things done for clinical collaboration on .gov and .mil networks. . .Makes pharma look like a free-for-all.
17:08 Took me two moths to get a simple port open at one of the NIH Institutes.
17:08 For an app that they created and run internally. . .
17:10 yama cjl: exactly. We need to treat our education networks as enterprise networks. Because that's what they are.
17:10 cjl yama I hate t osay it, but when talking to the sysadmins, I'd tone down the wonderful collaborative interchange OLPC rhetoric.  It is likely to scare them.
17:11 tailor themessage t othe audience.
17:11 yama cjl: we do emphasise things differently with tech people vs education people
17:12 cjl Yes, the users want the "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain" message.
17:13 Wizard of Oz reference in case the guy from Oz doesn't get it :-)
17:14 yama har, yes I got it :)
17:14 cjl nice chatting with you folsk, I'm going to go back to fiedddling with Pootle or maybe get outside, nice day here.
17:15 yama I'd better be off too - it's 3am here!
17:16 gnight all
17:16 cjl g'nite
17:16 cjl is now known as cjl_afk
17:18 yama before I go...
17:19 silbe: I was mistaken about our git repo. If you want to browse, you do so at https://dev.laptop.org.au/proj[…]/xo-au/repository
17:19 silbe yama: ok, so no way for me to access it via git?
17:20 yama silbe: and if you want to clone/write, use e.g. "git clone https://git.laptop.org.au/xo-au"
17:20 silbe trying...
17:21 yama silbe: please confirm it works so I can sleep soundly :)
17:24 silbe yama: seems to have worked, thanks!
17:24 yama silbe: fantastic :)
17:26 silbe yama: Some other time I'd like to ask you some questions about your customations - e.g. why you disabled HW clock syncing (though we might have already discussed that one - it rings a bell). But I should let you get to bed now.
17:28 yama silbe: feel free to contact jvonau about the more technical stuff. The disabling of clock syncing is to fix a Fedora bug.
17:28 silbe yama: ok, thanks!
17:29 lucian <lucian!~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:31 lucian_ has quit IRC
17:34 yama silbe: summary is that the XO system clock is very inaccurate. Fedora writes the sysclock time to hwclock on shutdown.
17:34 so the clock ends up being a long way off
17:35 the hwclock on its own is quite accurate, so it's better to leave it alone
17:36 silbe: we have networkmanager hooks to call ntp and write to hwclock (assuming that ntp is available on the network)
17:36 silbe yama: ah, I see. We should do the usual adjtimex() magic to keep the system clock synchronised to the hw clock...
17:37 yama yes. The hwclock is much more trustworthy than the sysclock
17:38 silbe yama: is there a reason you're not running (open)ntpd and letting it take care of the clock drift?
17:38 yama silbe: we can't access ntp over the Internet because of the proxies
17:39 silbe: we only have http access
17:39 and the networks are different in each state/territory
17:39 silbe yama: so you're using some other protocol to set the hw clock in the NM hooks?
17:39 yama silbe: no, we have to set the XO to use an NTP server on the WAN
17:40 silbe yama: I'm beginning to understand the complexity of your problem :-/
17:40 yama silbe: and the address of that server is different per state...
17:40 silbe yama: huh? I thought it doesn't have access to any NTP server?
17:41 yama silbe: we can access resources within the education network WAN
17:41 silbe: but servers on the Internet are different
17:41 silbe: and each state has its own different WAN
17:42 the education networks are walled gardens
17:47 silbe yama: ok, but as long as there's any NTP server that the XOs know about and can use from time to time, OpenNTPd (or chrony - I haven't used that one yet) should work fine.
19:19 dirakx1 sorry to have miss you guys I was at a familiy thing.
20:06 cjl_afk family first dirakx1 :-)
20:19 dirakx1 cjl_afk: ;)
20:33 tch has quit IRC
21:18 silbe has quit IRC
22:03 yama has quit IRC
22:08 yama <yama!~yama@124-168-48-233.dyn.iinet.net.au> has joined #sugar-meeting
22:08 yama has quit IRC
22:08 yama <yama!~yama@ubuntu/member/yama> has joined #sugar-meeting
22:29 tch <tch!~tch@> has joined #sugar-meeting
22:34 lucian has quit IRC

 « Previous day | Index | Today | Next day »     Channels | Search | Join

Powered by ilbot/Modified.