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#sugar-meeting, 2011-06-12

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15:58 silbe walterbender: hey! Did you make the meeting after all?
15:58 walterbender silbe: my ride was rained out :P
15:59 silbe walterbender: let's hope it doesn't start raining here... Still have my laundry outdoors :)
16:00 walterbender I think garycmartin and manuq are here for the meeting too
16:00 manuq walterbender: hello!
16:01 walterbender hi manuq
16:01 manuq walterbender, I'll get your idea and go to ride my bike this afternoon
16:02 walterbender I was going to be in a charity race this morning (50 miles) but it was rained out.
16:02 garycmartin arrives late with a cup of tea
16:03 manuq I use it all days for going here and there, but is a long time since I don't ride my bike just for distraction
16:03 hi garycmartin
16:03 garycmartin Hi all
16:04 silbe hi garycmartin & manuq!
16:04 manuq hi silbe!
16:04 garycmartin: just replied your email
16:05 garycmartin walterbender: you mentioned you wanted to discuss View Source and Journal. Shall I start meeting and we can dive in?
16:05 checks email
16:05 manuq is ready
16:08 walterbender garycmartin: OK
16:09 maybe View Source first
16:09 looks for the URL
16:09 garycmartin manuq: re:email you and Walter seemed to dis-like the clipboard icon (negative), where as you and Simon (erikos) both indicated you liked the scissors icon. I try not to count my own votes for things I suggest :)
16:09 #startmeeting
16:09 meeting Meeting started Sun Jun 12 16:09:29 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:09 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
16:09 walterbender #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]urce_Enhancements
16:10 garycmartin #topic View Source
16:10 walterbender I have patches I sent to sugar-devel that implements all the features on this page
16:10 the questions I have are (1) is it even generally a good idea?
16:11 (2) are the icons and submenus OK?
16:11 manuq walterbender: I'm surprised to see you didn't get much reaction for this
16:11 walterbender (3) the icon for the modified activity could perhaps use some improvement (manuq has helped me some already)
16:12 manuq: the only one who has commented is Bernie... he loves it :)
16:12 garycmartin walterbender: I'm +1 on the idea.
16:12 manuq walterbender: +1 on the idea too!
16:12 it goes with the sugar philosophie
16:12 silbe walterbender: I like both ideas in general, but I'm not so sure about the concrete designs.
16:13 walterbender FWIW, I made a patch to Edit that will let you open your activity code from Sugar, perhaps more controversial
16:13 manuq wasn't sugar intended to be like this originally?
16:13 walterbender silbe: please speak up as this is why we have these meetings
16:13 manuq: yes
16:13 garycmartin walterbender: I don't have a better idea for where the feature should be exposed in the UI (i.e. I'm not convinced this is the correct place for it but I don't have a better suggestion and do not want to block landing the feature).
16:14 walterbender garycmartin: which feature?
16:14 silbe walterbender: Let's start with the "View Sugar Source" part. Do I understand correctly that you're going to show this option in the View Source dialog for all activities?
16:14 garycmartin walterbender: View Sugar Source
16:14 walterbender silbe: yes...
16:15 silbe: at first, I put it in under the Journal entry on the Frame, but then I decided that it should be available no matter what you view, since every activity uses Suagr
16:15 silbe walterbender: I don't think that's a good fit. How about enhancing the Frame icons of the zoom levels instead?
16:15 walterbender silbe: but it still may make sense to add it to the Sugar-specific entries too
16:16 silbe: the patch I had made for the Journal opened the Journal code by default...
16:16 silbe: we could open the appropriate Sugar code for each element
16:16 garycmartin silbe: the Frame zoom icons don't seem to map onto all the Sugar sources one might want to view.
16:16 walterbender silbe: and for Activities, perhaps open the toolkit
16:16 silbe walterbender: hmm, we could show the sugar-toolkit source in activities, but I'm a bit worried it encourages modifying the sugar-toolkit source to change the behaviour of a single activity...
16:17 manuq walterbender: if I understand correctly, the "original" activity is backed up, and the modified one starts being used, and this is represented in the sugar activity icon with an overlay
16:17 walterbender silbe: right now viewing and modifying are separate
16:17 manuq: correct...
16:17 silbe walterbender: I'd imagine the View Source option of each zoom level to show the full hierarchy, but pointing at the source file implementing that zoom level.
16:17 walterbender manuq: but right now, I only copy the activity code, not Sugar
16:18 silbe: yeah... I could do something like that...
16:18 silbe: and we could drop it into the menus whereever we can
16:18 garycmartin walterbender: straw man, what if 'all' source could be viewed via a CP module, like the about my computer, about me type thing
16:18 silbe walterbender: later on, we could enhance all other Frame icons (devices etc.) to do the same
16:18 walterbender silbe: right now, I expose all of the Sugar source (toolkit and jarabe)
16:19 garycmartin: I am OK with that idea as well.
16:19 silbe walterbender: I like that (exposing all of Sugar).
16:19 manuq +1
16:19 walterbender silbe: (I left out the stuff in usr/share/sugar for the moment... it is one line to add it
16:20 silbe walterbender: that would be the device icons (and Control Panel sections) part that comes later
16:20 walterbender silbe: yes
16:21 silbe: having lived with it for a while, I like having the Sugar source available when I look at activity source
16:21 garycmartin walterbender: I'm faintly concerned about rolling this out into 'every' primary palette, it'll add a lot of noise to the UI that 99% of folks will never touch.
16:22 silbe walterbender: interesting point. Maybe we could include it in View Source, but not in the Copy part?
16:22 walterbender silbe: that is the way it is currently implemented... I don't copy Sugar source
16:22 silbe: In part because it opens a whole can of worms
16:23 silbe walterbender: ok, in that case I'm less worried about including sugar-toolkit in the activity View Source.
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16:23 walterbender silbe: if and when we can run Sugar in a VM inside of Sugar...
16:23 silbe walterbender: yes, View Source Sugar + Copy is definitely a can of worms...
16:23 walterbender silbe: I stopped at copy for Activities
16:24 silbe walterbender: VMs wouldn't be a solution (data store isn't shared), but that's more of a technical issue than a design one
16:24 walterbender silbe: it is pretty powerful to be able to directly modify activities on the fly within Sugar
16:24 silbe walterbender: ok, good.
16:25 walterbender silbe: should I only include the toolkit and not jarabe?
16:25 that is a matter of deleteing one line
16:25 garycmartin walterbender: Do you rename the activity? "My Abacus1"  (I'me sure we can improve on the svg overlay to be more clear)
16:25 walterbender and maybe we put the complere Sugar source somewhere else?
16:26 garycmartin: yes...
16:26 silbe walterbender: yes, please do. Activities are not supposed to interact with jarabe.* directly. All the API code is in sugar-toolkit. If that isn't sufficient (while browsing an activity), we should add more docstrings.
16:26 walterbender silbe: OK. I'll make that change
16:26 silbe:  and when we decide where to put the rest of the view source, I'll add it there.
16:27 manuq walterbender: there is also the issue about how the user gets to edit the code, that is, a code editor
16:27 garycmartin walterbender: It's a pity we couldn't manage a UI that made an auto activity copy on write, and then some UI to allow restoring the original if needed.
16:27 but that's a tougher to crack
16:27 silbe walterbender: thx! BTW, I guess you treat sugar-base the same as sugar-toolkit (since they share the same namespace)? What about sugar-artwork and sugar-datastore?
16:27 walterbender garycmartin: well, that is not so far off from what we have
16:27 silbe (personally I'd say leave those for the next iteration)
16:28 walterbender silbe: I agree.
16:28 silbe: I'll just include what is in site-map/sugar
16:28 silbe garycmartin: iff all activities are in the Journal, all you need to do is to use a data store with version support.
16:29 walterbender garycmartin: let me explain the copy workflow
16:29 garycmartin silbe: That is how I work here on my XOs and VMs.
16:29 walterbender (1) you click on copy on the View Source submenu
16:29 (2) you get a copy of the activity in $HOME/Activities, renamed My+... and with a new bundle_id and icon
16:30 garycmartin silbe: I keep the bundles of different version in Journal and then resume the bundle to get at a specific version for testing and checking.
16:30 walterbender (3) The new activity immediately appears in the Home View along with the old version
16:30 (4) you can remove the new activity from the List View
16:30 (5) If you copy a copy, you get yet another version
16:31 (6) If you recopy the original, you overwrite your copy (I need to add the Alert for that)
16:32 (7) You can edit your copy from Terminal using vi or from my modified Edit activity.
16:32 we should discuss Edit separately
16:32 silbe garycmartin: with version support we could combine those different entries in a single one, but otherwise it'd work very similar. The most important missing part is an IDE activity that can open bundles (i.e. zip files).
16:33 walterbender: is there a reason you copied to ~/Activities instead of putting a bundle in the Journal?
16:33 walterbender silbe: yes... because we run activites from ~/Activites, and I don't know how to run them from the Journal
16:33 silbe (both approaches have different downsides, FWIW)
16:34 manuq silbe: with version support it can be easier to send patches with the modifications also
16:34 walterbender silbe: I wanted the copy to be on an equal footing with the original
16:34 silbe walterbender: you simply put the bundle into the Journal. They get installed automatically when the user starts them.
16:35 walterbender silbe: when the user runs it, it gets unzipped into ~/Activities... same difference (except)
16:35 silbe: one more step for the user
16:35 garycmartin walterbender: though they can now share the source with Journal Send to --> friend.
16:35 silbe manuq: that's part of the different downsides. If you copy the activity to ~/Activities and initialise a git repository there, you can use git (almost) as usual. The same is not true of the Journal, unfortunately.
16:36 walterbender garycmartin: there is not point in sharing the copy until they modify it, which means it needs to be unzipped.
16:36 garycmartin: they get setup.py, so they can create a new budle
16:36 silbe walterbender: but now they have the a copy in the Journal, with everything that entails (backups, copying to storage medium, send to friend, ...).
16:36 garycmartin walterbender: good point.
16:37 walterbender silbe: we should either add a copy to journal action to setup.py or write an activity for managing activities
16:37 garycmartin walterbender: Is it possible to expose adding an activity as a bundle to the Journal?
16:38 walterbender garycmartin: I could do that easy enough, but I worry that the copy will not be what you expect, because it won't reflect your changes
16:38 garycmartin walterbender: this would allow editing the source and taking a snapshot into the Journal as a bundle for later recovery or sharing a new release.
16:39 silbe walterbender: why wouldn't the bundle include the changes?
16:39 walterbender garycmartin: but we never change the original activity, so it is redundant
16:39 silbe: the bundle I would generate and store in the Journal at copy is by definition *before* I make any changes to it
16:40 silbe: I am fine with bundles in the journal, but they should be made by the user when he makes changes, not when he copies
16:40 so it should be in setup.py, not in the copy mechanism
16:40 IMHO
16:41 silbe walterbender: I don't quite get it, sorry.
16:41 garycmartin silbe: What if the Journal exposed installed activities as bundles?
16:41 walterbender garycmartin: that would be cool
16:41 garycmartin: that would save a step and keep things autosynchronized
16:42 silbe: let me try to explain by reviewing the work flow:
16:42 silbe garycmartin: that's something I suggested at Sugar Camp in Paris. Some people liked it, others didn't. But if the Design Team says it's the way to go, I doubt anyone would oppose.
16:43 walterbender silbe: I copy an exisiting activity (let's ignore the how or even whether I copy a bundle into the Journal)
16:43 manuq garycmartin: and we have journal entries for the downloaded .xo activities currently
16:43 walterbender silbe: I now have an unzipped activity in ~/Activities
16:43 silbe: I modify that code
16:44 silbe: only at this point does it make sense to create a bundle with my modified code, because until now, I didn't modify it :P
16:44 make sense?
16:45 which brings up another point... should I reset the version no. to 1 when I make a copy?
16:46 silbe walterbender: the bundle-based work flow would be: 1. Copy the bundle to Journal, possibly doing some changes to activity/*. 2. Edit the bundle using some activity. 3. Run the activity from the edited bundle.
16:46 walterbender: if you change name and bundle_id, you should reset the version.
16:46 walterbender silbe: I don't know how you do your Step 1 without having unzipped first
16:47 silbe: how do you change the contents of the bundle without opening it?
16:47 #action: walter will reset the version no. on copy and changing bundle id
16:47 silbe walterbender: If you're inside an activity, you already have an unpacked copy. That's the purpose of ~/Activities: a cached of unpacked activity bundles.
16:47 walterbender #action walter will remove jarabe content from Sugar view source
16:47 silbe s/cached/cache/
16:48 walterbender silbe: exactly.
16:48 silbe: I suppose the difference is that I am not creating a bundle initially... I can.
16:48 silbe walterbender: Sugar will happily overwrite your changes in ~/Activities if you resume a bundle using the same name from the Journal, BTW.
16:49 walterbender silbe: but I think it adds an extra step fot the user
16:49 and as you point out, I think that users will accidently lose their changes by clicking on the bunlde
16:49 garycmartin walterbender: we could add a warning dialogue
16:49 walterbender silbe: I'd prefer to have the user explicitly create the bundle
16:50 silbe walterbender: I don't think it does. Instead of opening the Terminal to use a console text editor to edit ~/Activities/foo.Activity/*, they run an activity that can edit the contents of the bundle.
16:50 walterbender garycmartin: that is something we should do in general
16:50 silbe: maybe in an ideal world, but AFAIK, such an activity doesn't exisit
16:50 silbe I don't think adding that warning is straightforward...
16:50 walterbender ^exist
16:51 manuq walterbender: pippy?
16:51 walterbender manuq: pippy doesn't open activity bundles AFAIK
16:51 silbe walterbender: sure, but the code for your View Source enhancements didn't exist until very recently either.
16:52 walterbender silbe: true... but my view source enhancements do exist now... as do two other ways to edit activity code: Terminal and Edit
16:53 manuq walterbender, silbe I think ideally, the view source can be a edit source too
16:53 silbe I'm not sure what the _better_ workflow would be, BTW (especially if you consider the git issue). But what I'm sure about is that the bundle-based approach fits better into the Sugar design.
16:54 garycmartin manuq: Yea, I'd like to see that too. Apparently folks have in the past enabled some edit mode on the current view source widget to poke at this idea.
16:54 walterbender silbe: let me try to follow your proposed workflow.
16:54 garycmartin, manuq: I am not sanquin with that idea unless it is copy-on-write
16:55 garycmartin, manuq: and I think it adds a lot of complexity to view source
16:55 garycmartin, manuq it is the Sugar way to break such functionality up into different activities
16:56 back to silbe: just to make sure I understand what you are asking for
16:56 (1) copy into a bundle
16:56 (2) user opens bundle from Journal with some special bundle editor that
16:56 (2a) unpacks the bundle and
16:57 (2b) lets the user make changes and
16:57 (2c) create a new bundle
16:57 garycmartin walterbender: (2d) pauses to crank the XO powere handle for 10min.
16:58 walterbender silbe: I could kind of sort of live with that but we lose the magic of instantly getting a running copy in $HOME when you hit the copy button
16:58 silbe: and I would prefer to separate out the packing/unpacking of bundles from editing their content
16:59 silbe: so I would prefer to have 2a be the current mechanism
16:59 and have 2c be a sugarized version of setup.py dist_xo
16:59 and let a 1000 flowers bloom around 2b
17:01 notes that in order to do #1, I am going to have to make a copy, bundle it, and then delete it, only to unbundle it again at Step 2a...
17:01 garycmartin steps behind the heavy red curtain and in his best booming voice says, "Expose installed activities (and libraries) as bundles in the Journal!"
17:02 walterbender garycmartin: that is fine... but that is not really the issue here... I already said I was happy to add the bundle to the Journal
17:03 garycmartin: I think the issue is that it is being proposed that I delegate everything to a mythical bundle management/editing activity and I think it is unnessary and needlessly complex
17:03 ^unnecessary
17:04 or maybe I am missing some key insight here...
17:05 garycmartin: I don't see the point of making 2 abc be in an all-in-one uberactivity
17:06 shuts up and listens
17:06 garycmartin thinking still
17:10 walterbender: Slight tangent... Should the Activity Bundle Source palette option be "Duplicate", rather than "Copy"?
17:10 walterbender thinking
17:11 manuq garycmartin: +1
17:11 walterbender garycmartin: do we use duplicate for copying in the Journal and copy for the clipboard?
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17:11 walterbender garycmartin: if so, then yes
17:11 silbe_ walterbender: well, using ~/Activities could be considered needlessly complex as well. You're working against the internal architecture of Sugar (~/Activities is a cache), so you need to modify Sugar to cope with that (add some kind of warning dialog etc.).
17:12 walterbender silbe_: tell me how/where else someone runs/modifies activities?
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17:12 garycmartin thinks it could even be a new concept, just not Copy. Perhaps Clone, or Create My <activity name>
17:13 walterbender garycmartin: I am completely open to ideas...
17:13 silbe walterbender: Sugar does when you resume a bundle from the Journal
17:14 manuq silbe: using that cache is the way I hack activities
17:14 walterbender silbe: when you resume a bundle from the Journal, Sugar unzips to ~/Activities... what am I not getting?
17:14 manuq: I don't know how else to hack activities
17:14 silbe walterbender: that's exactly the problem. If you modify something in ~/Activities and later resume a bundle of that activity from the Journal, Sugar might overwrite it.
17:15 overwrite the changes in ~/Activities I mean
17:15 walterbender silbe: which was why I didn't want to make the bundle until the user wanted it... but we are going around in circles... I don't know where else to put it.
17:16 silbe: I am mostly an activity developer... I do a lot of that
17:16 garycmartin walterbender: another tangent, when the user clicks the Sugar Source, it might me good if the text "View source: '<activity name>', would change to indicate you were now viewing Sugar source.
17:16 silbe walterbender: yes, we should come to a decision. Both ways have their own set of drawbacks.
17:17 walterbender silbe: and the way I work is to make changes in ~/Activities...
17:17 silbe: when I like my changes, I make a new bundle
17:17 silbe walterbender: because nobody wrote an activity to do activity development in Sugar yet.
17:17 walterbender silbe: not quite true
17:18 silbe: you can write activities in Pippy and in Terminal
17:18 silbe:  and using my modified Edit
17:19 garycmartin walterbender: and there is Develop, which is a little scary but did work at one point
17:19 walterbender silbe: I need to review the Pippy code, but I think it creates something in ~/Activities, not just in the Journal
17:19 silbe walterbender: but they all modify the cache behind Sugars back, instead of using the Journal like other activities.
17:19 walterbender silbe: yes...
17:20 silbe: I think the idea that ~/Activities is just a cache is idealistic
17:20 but not the way people really work
17:20 silbe walterbender: maybe, but making it something else is a can of worms as well...
17:20 walterbender silbe: so unless we provide really good tools to make it easier to get your work done in the Journal rather than in the cache, we are going to ave issues
17:21 silbe: it already is something else
17:21 silbe: so that can is open
17:21 silbe: in practice, it you write activties, you do it in the "cache"
17:22 silbe: that is 99.9% the facts on the ground
17:22 silbe walterbender: not for Sugar. If we include your patch now, we'll have to make the internal code work well with it, too.
17:22 walterbender silbe: huh?
17:22 silbe: (1) Sugar doesn't use .xo bundles, just activities do
17:23 silbe: (2) my patch is not about modifying Sugar, just activities
17:23 silbe: unless you mean Sugar activities, in which case I think you are mistaken.
17:23 silbe walterbender: right now, we can say "be careful, you're doing something behind Sugars back". We can't say that if we include it as a feature.
17:24 walterbender: Sugar does the automatic unpacking of .xo bundles from the Journal. So it does use them.
17:24 walterbender silbe: we are talking across each other...
17:24 silbe walterbender: possibly
17:25 walterbender silbe: when I refer to the 99.9%, I am talking about writing/modifying activities
17:25 garycmartin silbe: Perhaps we can add a warning message when unpacking a bundle from Journal over an existing one?
17:25 silbe garycmartin: that's exactly what we'd need to do, but would be hard to get right.
17:25 walterbender silbe: almost every activity (except those preinstalled) is distributed as a bundle through the journal
17:25 garycmartin silbe: (manual rather than the automatic case as in a download via Browse or Software Update)
17:26 silbe garycmartin: huh?
17:26 walterbender maybe the situation is not so dire...
17:27 garycmartin silbe: user instigated unpacking via clicking on a Journal bundle should trigger the warning. Using Browse to download a .xo should be automatic.
17:27 walterbender unless I am mistaken, we don't unpack an activity if the version number hasn't increased
17:28 garycmartin walterbender: I thought that was removed.
17:28 silbe walterbender: what exactly would you expect Sugar to do if the user resumes a bundle from the Journal that has a different version than the unpacked (and potentially user-modified) copy in ~/Activities?
17:28 garycmartin silbe: It should raise a warning.
17:28 walterbender silbe: since it is My activity, I would be the one who changed the version number
17:29 silbe garycmartin: Downloading a bundle using Browse only puts it into the Journal. And there's no guarantee that the user hasn't modified exactly this activity.
17:29 walterbender silbe: I guess I am mistaken, but if the bundle didn't install unless the version number increased, I think we would have no issues at all
17:30 silbe garycmartin: then you raise a warning every time you try to run an updated activity. People will get used to clicking "Yes(, already, get out of my way!)".
17:30 walterbender silbe: my changes wouldn't be at risk unless I downgraded by version number in the cache copy
17:30 ^by^my
17:30 garycmartin silbe: No, only if they manually click on the .xo bundle in Journal.
17:31 silbe walterbender: or you get a newer version from somewhere else, yes.
17:31 walterbender silbe: how would I get a version of my activity from somewhere else?
17:31 silbe garycmartin: that's the only case we're talking about. Resuming an activity session always using the last-unpacked copy.
17:31 walterbender silbe: I suppose if I gave it to a friend to edit..
17:31 silbe walterbender: exactly
17:32 walterbender silbe: but that does raise a point: maybe ^My^nick
17:32 silbe: but if I get a copy from a friend, I am expecting that things will change...
17:33 silbe walterbender: but let's get this over with, one way or another. We'll deal with the fallout in the next version.
17:33 garycmartin Sorry folks, I need to bail. If I end meeting can one of you start it again and I'll catch up with the logs later?
17:33 walterbender silbe: the case I worry about is that the bundle you want me to create at the time of copy would potentially overwrite the changes I might havemade after copying
17:33 silbe garycmartin: you can change the chair instead.
17:33 garycmartin I can?
17:33 walterbender garycmartin: thanks for the input...
17:33 silbe meeting: help chair
17:33 meeting silbe: Error: There is no command "chair".
17:34 silbe meeting: help addchair
17:34 meeting silbe: (addchair <channel> <network> <nick>) -- Add a nick as a chair to the meeting.
17:35 silbe walterbender: I didn't get your last argument...
17:35 garycmartin Thanks, but I'll pass on grocking that..
17:36 silbe <g>
17:36 garycmartin #endmeeting
17:36 meeting Meeting ended Sun Jun 12 17:36:03 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
17:36 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-12T16:09:29.html
17:36 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-06-12T16:09:29
17:36 silbe #startmeeting
17:36 meeting Meeting started Sun Jun 12 17:36:10 2011 UTC. The chair is silbe. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:36 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
17:36 walterbender bye garycmartin
17:36 silbe #addchair #sugar-meeting freenode garycmartin
17:36 hmm, not quite apparently.
17:36 garycmartin silbe: lol
17:37 silbe garycmartin: thx for joining in & have a nice evening!
17:37 walterbender silbe: my last argument doesn't matter if bundles cannot overwrite the same version number
17:37 while I remember:
17:37 #action change My to the user's nick
17:38 silbe manuq: are you still with us?
17:38 manuq silbe: yes
17:38 garycmartin walterbender: I'm still + on your changes, keeping in mind 'good' rather than stalling for 'perfect', just need to cross the t and dot the i, and polish where we can.
17:39 silbe manuq: what's your take on this?
17:39 garycmartin waves
17:39 manuq thinking
17:39 garycmartin has quit IRC
17:39 silbe (I'm not trying to make you choose a "side", BTW - I'm unsure what the best approach is)
17:41 brb
17:42 manuq silbe: sorry I needed to read the last part of the discussion
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17:43 manuq silbe, walterbender, IMHO I think it's good as a first take to try to mimic the current way of editing activities
17:44 that is, unzip to ~/Activities and hack there
17:45 and avoid changing Sugar
17:47 my two cents :)
17:47 silbe ok, let's do it walters way for now then. Maybe we can teach Sugar to use git for managing the cache. That way we don't need the warning.
17:48 if somebody develops a great IDE with bundle support, nobody prevents the users from using that workflow.
17:48 walterbender silbe: can you please confirm one way or another the current behaviour when you click on a bundle with the same version number as in the cache?
17:49 silbe: also same question but in regard to downgrades?
17:49 silbe: this will inform me re how to best create the bundle on copy
17:50 silbe: I am thinking it best to create a bundle with v 1 and *maybe* a cache with v1.1 ??
17:51 silbe walterbender: jarabe.model.bundleregistry​.BundleRegistry.upgrade():
17:51        elif act.get_activity_version() == bundle.get_activity_version():
17:51            logging.debug('No upgrade needed, same version already installed.')
17:51 walterbender silbe: perfect... so there is no danger in making the bundle and unpacking it into the cache on copy
17:52 silbe walterbender: as long as the version number is the same, nothing happens, yes.
17:52 walterbender #action walter will make a bundle on copy and mv it to the Journal
17:53 silbe: so I think we are cool... as long as I create the bundle, I open the door to the future and as long as I unpack into the cache, I stay compatible with the status quo
17:53 silbe walterbender: sounds fine to me.
17:53 walterbender: thanks for hacking on this!
17:53 manuq walterbender: fine to me too
17:54 walterbender: yes, thankyou!
17:54 walterbender OK. I have 4-5 actions to take for the next pass...
17:54 manuq: if you could work more on the icon overlay, that would be appreciated
17:54 silbe ok, should we do a quick shot at PDF support in Browse and finish the meeting afterwards?
17:54 manuq walterbender: yes!
17:55 walterbender silbe, if you have the stamina, I'd like to add $HOME/Documents to the agenda as well
17:55 silbe walterbender: fine with me. manuq?
17:55 manuq silbe: yeah, I have time
17:56 silbe walterbender: not sure we should discuss it without Gary, though. He had some issues with showing the Journal Volumes toolbar all the time.
17:57 walterbender silbe: OK. it can wait... (although as I explained to Gary, it only appears if you have a $HOME/Documents, which the default builds don't include, I don't believe)
17:58 silbe: you should try the patch and live with it for a week... I'd be curious if you find it useful.
17:58 silbe #topic Browse: Export to PDF
17:59 #link Patch and description: https://patchwork.sugarlabs.org/patch/797/
17:59 #link Rationale: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]1-May/031543.html
17:59 walterbender: I'm not opposed to it - but let's discuss it in a few minutes. I'd like to get a PDF-enabled Browse out of the door soon.
18:00 walterbender silbe: sure... I am happy with the PDF approach...
18:00 manuq reading
18:00 silbe From the description: "Similar to the way it works for Turtle Art, we expose the functionality as a button in the Activity toolbar, with 'document-save' as icon. There is no way for the user to influence the result (i.e. to set print options)."
18:00 walterbender silbe: that way we can focus all of our printing headaches into one place: PDF files
18:01 silbe I'd like to get some feedback on the toolbar design - the place of the icon (currently: activity (sub)toolbar) and which icon to use (currently the generic 'document-save').
18:01 walterbender the only other approach that I think could work would be to do it in the Journal: copy Journal object to PDF
18:02 I thought at one point (in Write perhaps?) we had a specific icon for PDF save
18:02 looks
18:03 silbe walterbender: that one would still require the activities themselves (resp. sugar-toolkit as a fallback) to implement the PDF support, but would require additional API so the Journal can tell the activity to save a PDF...
18:04 walterbender: ah, a PDF-specific icon would be great.
18:04 walterbender cannot find it... might have been in a long-ago deprecated version
18:04 manuq walterbender: the pdf format has a popular icon
18:05 walterbender: I can sugarize it
18:05 walterbender I think it would be worth making the icon PDF specific
18:06 silbe manuq: isn't that a trademark owned by Adobe?
18:06 manuq pdf is a mark of adobe
18:06 yes
18:06 silbe #link http://www.adobe.com/misc/linking.html
18:06 "You may not use Adobe product icons except under a written license from Adobe."
18:07 I don't think we should promote Adobe software by doing an icon based on their trademarks and asking for permission to use it.
18:07 manuq silbe: so we may need to generalize the icon, and the action, to export to printable format?
18:08 silbe manuq: that would be one option. Or maybe put the letters "PDF" on it. I'll leave it up to you guys; I'm not a designer.
18:08 manuq silbe: yes I don't like the idea of a trademark logo, there is no one in sugar and that's good
18:10 there is no "export document" icon in sugar already, right?
18:11 silbe manuq: I haven't found a specific one, nop. Write uses 'document-save', too.
18:11 manuq silbe: yes
18:11 walterbender manuq: we need a whole series of icons for importing and exporting different document types
18:11 silbe and I guess that's fine - after all the only different is the format it gets saved in.
18:12 manuq walterbender: good
18:12 walterbender, silbe, is it important that the icon reflects the format?
18:12 walterbender if you build them, I will use them :)
18:13 manuq for example in a paint activity, export to png, to jpeg, etc
18:13 walterbender: ok :)
18:13 walterbender manuq: I think in Silbe's use case, the idea that the document is being exported for printing is important.
18:13 for paint, maybe you need that level of granularity
18:14 manuq walterbender: maybe, a pdf can be used to read on screen too
18:14 walterbender in TA, I want to have a export as image; export as HTML, export as LOGO, etc.
18:14 silbe manuq: I think it's important to use an icon that makes it clear that people can use it to export a PDF for printing / archiving. The generic document-save icon doesn't.
18:14 walterbender manuq: good point
18:14 manuq walterbender: and adding a printer to the icon may get the impression that the button would execute a print action
18:15 walterbender, silbe, so we need general export/import icons with the format explicit
18:15 silbe maybe something that gives the impression of taking a snapshot?
18:16 (for PDF)
18:17 manuq silbe, yes, or something to get the impression of a modification of the object that can be handled elswhere (export) of here (import)
18:18 silbe if we define "export" to mean "saving in a format that isn't the preferred form of editing" (ala GPL), the snapshot icon (whatever it is) could be used for all exports, with the specific format given as text in the palette (like we do now with the document-save icon).
18:18 manuq and something different than the copy/paste icons
18:19 silbe ok, we're taking way longer than I anticipated.
18:19 do you agree with the placement of the export-pdf button or can we improve on that, too?
18:19 manuq silbe: ok, I can come with a proposal in the mailing list
18:20 silbe manuq: awesome, thanks!
18:20 #action manuq to prepare a proposal for export icons and present it on sugar-devel
18:21 manuq walterbender: you still with us?
18:21 walterbender +1
18:21 manuq good
18:21 silbe ok. I guess the icon position is fine then.
18:22 manuq silbe: I think yes, we may ask Gary too
18:22 silbe ok
18:22 #topic Show ~/Documents in Journal
18:22 walterbender: you have the stage
18:23 walterbender well, I think we wait until next week so that Gary can chime in, but I encourage you to try it...
18:23 I find that it makes me much more productive.
18:24 and it is a feature that can be turned on/off by the availabily of $HOME/Documents, so it won't be noticed by the typical user.
18:24 manuq silbe: sorry one more thing about pdf export
18:25 maybe the good place for the button is inside the view subtoolbar
18:25 walterbender FWIW, I have gotten very positive feedback from all the teachers I have spoken with.
18:25 manuq sorry edit subtoolbar
18:25 walterbender manuq: if there is room there, it may make some logical sense...
18:26 manuq walterbender: yes, it belongs there
18:26 silbe manuq: interesting point.
18:26 manuq walterbender: and more important, the url text imput is not shortened
18:27 silbe manuq: at least on my system, the length of the activity title seems to have a fixed limit anyway
18:28 manuq silbe: sorry I'm guessing the placement from reading your patch
18:28 silbe manuq: an argument pro putting it into the activity toolbar is that Keep currently lives there, too.
18:28 manuq I didn't have time to apply it
18:29 silbe manuq: take a look at Write, it uses the same position.
18:29 manuq silbe: yes I see now
18:31 silbe walterbender: FWIW, I think your patch is a good interim measure for Sugar <-> Journal integration.
18:31 walterbender: in the long run I think datastore-fuse is the way to go.
18:31 walterbender silbe: thanks... mostly to tch
18:31 silbe: yes... any ETA?
18:33 silbe: FWIW, in the long run, there are very different approaches to view source we may want to take as well...
18:33 silbe walterbender: ETA is infinite right now because no one is using it. With no users I can't justify the time to work on it (except when I need it myself).
18:33 walterbender silbe: if/when we port to GNOME 3.0/Python 3.0, we have many more options
18:34 silbe walterbender: +1 I consider the current View Source an interim measure as well. But I don't have a much better idea, so I'm mostly keeping my mouth shut. ;)
18:34 should we wrap up the meeting here? We can continue to chat afterwards.
18:34 walterbender I am running out of energy
18:34 plus I want to finish up my new activity... almost ready to launch
18:34 manuq needs to see sunday's sky
18:34 silbe walterbender: no solar panel for your XO? ;)
18:35 ok, let's finish for today.
18:35 #endmeeting
18:35 meeting Meeting ended Sun Jun 12 18:35:20 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
18:35 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-12T17:36:10.html
18:35 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-06-12T17:36:10
18:35 walterbender silbe: no sun in Boston... 48 hours of heavy rain
18:35 silbe Thanks everyone for joining in & have a nice day (or whatever is left of it)!
18:36 manuq have a nice day!
18:36 silbe walterbender: ok, would have to be a rather large panel then...
18:36 manuq bye
18:36 silbe manuq: cu next sunday I hope
18:36 walterbender thanks manuq
18:36 CU
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