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#sugar-meeting, 2011-06-04

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12:46 yama is the Dextrose meeting on soon?
13:07 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Dextrose/Meetings says that these meetings are on at Saturday at 14:00 GMT
13:07 which is now
13:07 is that incorrect?
13:07 no wait, it's in an hour
13:16 Google Calendar thinks GMT is London time :(
14:01 silbe <silbe!~silbe@twin.sascha.silbe.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:05 yama hi silbe
14:05 silbe yama: hey! :)
14:05 yama is the meeting on?
14:06 silbe is there a meeting today / now-ish? I didn't see an announcement, but OTOH there was an announcement the last week but no meeting...
14:06 ok, so you don't know either... bernie, m_anish, dfarning_afk?
14:08 yama http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Dextrose/Meetings says that these meetings are on at Saturday at 14:00 GMT
14:08 I assumed that was every week
14:08 silbe yama: they were until EduJam. We haven't had a single meeting since then :-/
14:08 yama I've been hanging out for the meeting... it's 12am here :/
14:12 silbe yama: don't stay up just for us... bernie asked about moving the meeting by one hour last week, so it could get 01:00 until it starts even if it happens at all. I'll make sure we take you into account when reconsidering the time.
14:13 yama thanks silbe. Working with Sugar/OLPC people can be hard since most are on the other side of the world from me.
14:13 silbe yama: I don't expect a productive meeting anyway; it's been too long since we last synced.
14:14 yama I have a lot I need to talk about, as we plan our migration to Dextrose
14:14 silbe yama: I'm quite glad I'm in the "middle". It's hard even for me at times.
14:14 yama silbe: where are you based?
14:16 silbe yama: If you like we can start chatting a bit. It would give us some idea of what we should discuss in more detail another time. We could also do a special meeting just for you (i.e. OLPC-AU). Might even be better than mixing it with our weekly coordination meeting.
14:16 yama: Germany
14:17 yama silbe: thanks, that sounds good. I'
14:17 silbe: I'll raise my main points
14:18 an OLPC-AU meeting would be really good as well
14:18 silbe yama: what time and day would suit you?
14:20 yama silbe: 00:30:00 to 13:00:00 UTC would be best
14:20 not sure how that crosses into your time
14:23 silbe yama: currently 02:30 - 15:00 local time, so the upper(?) end would be better. Those located in the Americas might prefer the first time, though. We'll figure something out.
14:24 yama silbe: It's difficult finding a time that's sane for everyone :/
14:25 silbe: but if you could let me know, that would be great. I have lots of availability this week. I just can't do 7 June (Australian EST).
14:26 silbe: I'll e-mail through an agenda
14:26 silbe yama: It's impossible. Someone will always have to adjust. All we can do is try to reduce the number of people the time is bad for and / or do round-robin.
14:27 yama: Great! I'll follow up with the others to organise a meeting for you.
14:28 yama silbe: thanks! Let me know how you go.
14:29 silbe yama: certainly
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14:38 icarito silbe: hi I finally managed to try your xdg-desktop patch
14:38 :-)
14:39 silbe: gave me lots of ideas
14:40 silbe: i'm running sugar as my DE now
14:40 and I *really* want Alt+Tab
14:40 its my main blocker
14:40 atm
14:41 yama Alt+Tab works on XOs
14:41 silbe icarito: while I was ill I got notion (successor of ion3) to work with Sugar. Not well (yet), but the basic functions work.
14:41 yama what's this patch? Sounds interesting
14:41 icarito interesting
14:42 about xdg-desktop items I think a list view with an option to favorite apps into favorites view would be more logical
14:42 about alt-tab here's something http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/10693
14:44 silbe: it does seem metacity is not the right wm
14:44 the integration of non-sugar apps is not very nice
14:44 silbe icarito: the metacity bug got fixed upstream, IIRC dsd even got the fix included in OLPC builds now. I should do a new build so we can test.
14:44 icarito ok so I'll try to update my metacity
14:45 silbe yama: https://patchwork.sugarlabs.org/patch/717/
14:45 yama: It's a proof-of-concept for starting non-Sugar (but XDG-compliant) applications from the Sugar Favourites View
14:46 yama silbe: we really need something like that :)
14:47 I've got activities created to run GNOME apps that we need (http://dev.laptop.org.au/issues/434 and http://dev.laptop.org.au/issues/430)
14:47 silbe icarito: There are several design options we could try. Separate list views for XDG + Sugar, but shared favourites layout, or separate list views and favourites layouts, or even list view and favourites layout shared between XDG and Sugar.
14:48 yama silbe: but the activity loading screen remains in the background for a good one and a half minutes after the app loads
14:48 making it easier to run normal Linux apps properly would be brilliant
14:49 silbe yama: yeah, that's another item on my list (http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Sascha_silbe) that I didn't get around to work on yet.
14:49 yama: https://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/2434
14:50 yama silbe: what do you think it would take to bring this to production?
14:51 silbe BTW, re. cookie-licking: Anybody is invited to work on anything on that list. It's my vision of which direction I imagine Sugar to go near to medium term. There's much more on that list than I can personally work on.
14:51 yama silbe: because maybe I can find a resource for it
14:51 (no promises, but possibly)
14:53 silbe yama: this particular ticket should be about a week of work, depending on how well the person already knows GTK, the XDG startup notification protocol and especially the Sugar Shell. The nice thing is that the client side is already done because GTK does it by default.
14:54 yama: maybe even just a couple of hours, but I tend to underestimate the amount of work required.
14:54 yama silbe: haha don't we all :)
14:55 silbe yama: it's an epidemic :)
14:55 yama silbe: from what I can tell, this is the main thing stopping standard Linux apps from running on Sugar
14:56 silbe: Would that be fair to say? I'm just trying to gauge the priority of this.
14:57 silbe yama: There's an entire scale of "running" inside Sugar. But without a working libsugarize, this particular one is at least an obvious annoyance.
14:59 yama: check out the Rainbow -> "legacy sessions" part of my list to get some idea on what else we could do to integrate non-Sugar applications into a Sugar workflow.
15:02 yama silbe: honestly I never really understood what Rainbow does (I did read the description at wiki.laptop.org). Why do we need it when normal Linux distros don't have it?
15:02 silbe yama: Journal integration is a major step. Depending an the actual application, there's a variety of easy-enough things to do. Setting $HOME and zipping it up on exit / unzipping on resume would be a good start.
15:04 yama: Rainbow is an isolation shell. It restricts what each activity can do. It allows you to safely run potentially dangerous programs. They don't have to be malicious - genuine mistakes can clean out your entire $HOME.
15:05 yama: Incidentally I use Rainbow only outside of Sugar: To run GUI browsers (with JavaScript enabled) or to run software I don't trust too well.
15:05 yama silbe: ok, so Rainbow sounds similar to what Android does
15:05 (in concept)
15:06 silbe yama: I don't really know what Android does, but I've seen some slides about Chromium that showed something similar to Rainbow.
15:06 yama silbe: how much does Sugar actually use Rainbow? Does it need Bitfrost to be active?
15:09 silbe: I was thinking tch's and walter's work on mounting ~/Documents as a volume would be temporary measure to making Linux apps work with Sugar
15:10 reduces pressure to implement object chooser in gtk
15:10 silbe yama: Unfortunately current versions of Sugar don't work with Rainbow. There are some technical issues (https://bugs.sugarlabs.org/que[…]mponent=Rainbow); some are trivial, others involve compromises and a moderate amount work (e.g. https://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/2460).
15:11 yama: we also have datastore-fuse that works the other way, but nobody seems to be interested in it.
15:12 yama silbe: I didn't know about that. Do you have info?
15:12 silbe yama: BTW: Bitfrost is the name of the specification; Rainbow is an implementation of some part of the spec. Some Python modules used for secure booting and anti-theft seem to be named bitfrost, too, which is causing some confusion. :-/
15:12 yama: http://git.sugarlabs.org/datastore-fuse
15:14 yama silbe: datastore-fuse looks like a good idea! We use both Sugar and GNOME, and sharing data between them is a pain.
15:14 silbe yama: it's not perfect, but with a total lack of feedback I just can't justify working on it. There are other important issues to work on that generate more responses.
15:15 yama silbe: what would you recommendation to share files between Sugar and GNOME, and what do you think it'll take to bring it to production?
15:16 silbe: because maybe we're interested :)
15:18 silbe yama: Walters Documents-folder-in-Journal patch is a good interim measure. Easily understood, time to roll out into the field is bounded. datastore-fuse is the way to go medium to long term, but requires some effort till it works really well.
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15:19 silbe yama: the disadvantage of the Documents-folder-in-Journal approach is that it only works from inside Sugar.
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15:19 yama silbe: which isn't necessarily a bad thing since we want to encourage people to use Sugar most of the time anyway :)
15:20 silbe yama: good point. Though long-term I intend to blur the distinction between them anyway.
15:22 yama silbe: yes that's better in the long run. Basically what I look for in solutions is 1) what can we do soon, and 2) what is the proper solution
15:22 silbe yama: +2 (i.e. +1 on both)
15:23 yama silbe: any idea on where Documents-folder-in-Journal is at? That was actually on my list of things to raise at the meeting.
15:26 silbe yama: Walter posted it on sugar-devel. It didn't make it onto https://patchwork.sugarlabs.org/ because it a) was in an attachment and b) used the wrong MIME type (application/octet-stream). The Message-ID of the latest version is <BANLkTim3LApsbWPJ6n1gi326Je+02Yirxg@mail.gmail.com>.
15:26 Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] adding $HOME/Documents to the volumes toolbar
15:28 yama silbe: found it, thank you
15:28 silbe yama: yw
15:29 yama silbe: that'll be in my list of things I want to talk about at our meeting. GNOME-Sugar compatibility is important to us.
15:30 silbe yama: it's important to all of us. The interesting points are how important the individual pieces are and who's going to work on them.
15:31 yama silbe: the impression I was getting was that GNOME isn't used or wanted much in the main deployments, so it wasn't getting attention
15:31 silbe and some times which solution is better, of course :)
15:32 yama silbe: GNOME isn't even part of DX2, but we'll need it if we start basing our OS on DX3
15:32 silbe yama: It's often used by the teachers, instead of Sugar. That's also something I hope to reduce by blurring the distinction. The teachers shouldn't have to use the Gnome GUI just to use some applications that are not sugarised.
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15:35 silbe yama: There are DX2 images both with and without Gnome, on both XO-1 and XO-1.5. The problem is that the additional parts of Gnome take up most of the free space on XO-1s.
15:36 yama silbe: yes I saw those. They are listed as "unsupported", which had me worried
15:37 silbe yama: So deployments that don't have XO-1.5s exclusively are in a tricky situation of either reducing the already rather sparse space on XO-1s even further or making the XO-1s second-class by not including Gnome on them.
15:38 yama: Gnome is unsupported because we don't have the resources to support it. It doesn't mean it doesn't work, just that we're focussing on supporting Sugar.
15:38 yama silbe: I think we might be a bit odd in that we're focusing on XO-1.5s. We have about 300MB space free on our XO-1 builds, which include GNOME.
15:39 silbe yama: Especially since "Gnome" usually implies a lot of different applications. Sugar is "Gnome" is some sense, too, because we're building on the same libraries.
15:41 yama silbe: understood. I'll have to discuss with AC what we can do to get that changed :)
15:43 silbe yama: A good start would be to define some subset of "Gnome" that you're most interested in.
15:44 yama silbe: fair enough. It is a gargantuan beast.
15:44 silbe yama: There might even be different solutions depending on the subset. E.g. if it's just a few applications, sugarising them would be easier than supporting failure-recovery for a full Gnome session.
15:46 yama silbe: Interesting point. Although in our case we need the desktop environment. We've been using that as a selling point for the older kids.
15:48 silbe yama: I'd like to find out more about why they prefer Gnome over Sugar. Is it just marketing (Gnome for adults and Sugar for kids) or are there actual benefits?
15:49 yama silbe: honestly, I think it's mainly marketing. But we're at the stage where removing GNOME would constitute a regression. So we're stuck with it now.
15:51 silbe yama: ok, good - in the sense that I'm on the right track re. Sugar/Gnome integration, making them work better with each other.
15:52 yama silbe: yes. For example, teachers have been interested in the Ooo4Kids activity (http://activities.sugarlabs.or[…]sugar/addon/4241). But it's not too useful because it can't access the journal.
15:53 silbe: with the Documents-folder-in-Journal patch, you could save to ~/Documents, and still access it in Sugar
15:54 silbe yama: because Ooo4Kids is specifically built for Sugar, adding Journal integration shouldn't be too hard. We don't need to rely on LD_PRELOAD hacks to do it.
15:55 yama: and as you point out, the Documents-folder-in-Journal patch is an acceptable interim measure.
15:55 yama silbe: how hard is it typically to add journal support to an app?
15:55 silbe: i.e. how much effort is required?
15:57 silbe yama: I can't tell because I never tried, but assuming the application already uses dbus and is well-behaved in general, it should only be a matter of replacing those parts of the code that use the GTK FileChooser and triggering auto-save on window-switching.
15:58 yama: A wild guess would be about a week again ;)
15:59 yama: TBH I'm surprised it doesn't have Journal integration yet. Maybe we should ask them why, i.e. whether they tried and hit some issue.
16:01 yama silbe: I already did. It seems their focus for now is on cross-platform compatibility rather than optimisation for one platform.
16:04 silbe yama: Sounds like they're only interested in the XO and consider it as a hardware platform that just happens to run some "weird" software. :-/
16:05 yama silbe: that might well be the case :S Maybe when they have more time they can come back and give it more love for Sugar.
16:07 silbe yama: maybe they'd accept a patch if somebody else works on it.
16:07 wow, the source must be huge. It's still busy checking out...
16:08 yama silbe: I'm considering that. Although if Documents-folder-in-Journal does the trick we might leave it there. We can spend our resources on other concerns.
16:09 silbe yama: agreed.
16:09 yama silbe: OpenOffice and Firefox are the main apps in use in GNOME.
16:10 silbe: we recently had Browse fixed, so that's good
16:10 silbe yama: There's already a Firefox activity, BTW.
16:11 Not sure how well it is integrated and how well it works, though.
16:11 yama silbe: it's very old
16:11 silbe: looking forward to Surf
16:11 silbe oh, so it contains binary blobs? :-/
16:11 yama silbe: it's based on FF3.0 I think
16:13 silbe yama: me too, but it's going to be a lot of work and so far the only person both compentent enough and willing to do the work is lucian...
16:13 lucian tends to miss meetings ...
16:14 silbe lucian: dfarning_afk, bernie and m_anish too it seems :-/
16:14 yama the main problem we've been dealing with lately is that the schools use automatic proxy configuration (a PAC/WPAD file), which require authentication.
16:15 lucian silbe: btw, i finished uni, likely (unless i'll fail some exams)
16:15 yama Sugar can't handle that since it uses http_proxy instead of networkmanager
16:15 lucian i'm doing GSoC for parrot, but i should have time to do some Surf work
16:15 .pac is a bit of a pain in the ass, yes
16:16 silbe yama: at least if configured that way, Browse does support automatic configuration via WPAD. What exactly is the problem?
16:16 yama that Browse works (since it gets the proxy from gconf), but other activities can't get online
16:16 browse 122 is fine now
16:16 Sugar is not :(
16:17 ^-- silbe
16:17 silbe yama: ah, I see.
16:18 yama we've got a patch in our Sugar to write the gconf setting to http_proxy, but that doesn't work with pac files
16:20 silbe yama: if the PAC isn't too complex, you could try interpreting it in a NetworkManager hook.
16:21 yama silbe: I think there's a lot in there, and it prompts for a user name and password
16:22 silbe: I'm hoping that gets addressed as Sugar starts supporting NetworkManager 0.9 and gconf better
16:22 silbe yama: running a minimal proxy locally would help with changing locations while the laptop is powered up. Let applications connect to the local proxy and the proxy connect to the "outside" proxy.
16:22 yama silbe: that's an interesting idea!
16:23 silbe yama: This isn't something that NM 0.9 does differently AFAIK. And Sugar itself already uses gconf (almost) exclusively.
16:24 yama: what activities exactly are you having trouble with? I.e. which ones need internet access?
16:24 yama silbe: admittedly my experience with Sugar is with 0.84 :S
16:25 silbe: Software Update is the main one. Also Get Books, Read ETexts, etc.
16:25 silbe yama: IIRC we haven't changed much since 0.84 in that regard. Only 0.82 stored configuration in a custom format.
16:26 yama silbe: does the latest sugar version still get its proxy from http_proxy?
16:26 silbe: even if it doesn't support pac files, it'd be nice if it got its proxy from gconf.
16:27 silbe yama: Software Update is something we should easily be able to add proxy support using the GConf settings to. Can you check if there's a ticket for that already and if there isn't file one, please?
16:27 yama: "Sugar" doesn't get its proxy from anywhere currently - if we happen to evaluate http_proxy, it happens inside some component we use, probably Python.
16:28 yama silbe: so there's no global setting for the whole environment?
16:29 silbe yama: we don't provide a custom network library, so no, there's no global setting.
16:29 yama silbe: http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/2821 - turns out I created it
16:30 silbe yama: Browse is based on xulrunner (Mozilla) which in turn already uses the Gnome proxy settings by default: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]nuary/029624.html
16:31 yama silbe: yes I'm aware of that. What I didn't know is that there's no unified proxy setting for Sugar.
16:32 silbe yama: thanks! Maybe m_anish can work on proxy support for the Software Updater, he's written the new one (not upstream yet).
16:33 yama: well, in a way there is: The Gnome GConf settings. Some parts of Sugar simply don't use them yet. ;)
16:36 yama: I guess someone should investigate whether there's some Python binding for the Gnome libraries that implement the HTTP support (libsoap?) and if it's reasonably easy to use. If so, we could simply switch from the native Python modules to this Gnome library.
16:36 lucian silbe: that implies pygi
16:37 but i don't think switching to libsoap is necessarily a good idea
16:37 i thought nm supported .pac, doesn't it
16:37 silbe lucian: so there's no old-style (e.g. SWIG-based) Python binding for libsoup (not libsoap, my bad)?
16:38 lucian silbe: no generated bindings for libsoup, no
16:38 it's one of the reasons Surf has no cookie support
16:38 silbe lucian: any specific reason why not?
16:38 lucian silbe: gnome people point to gobject-introspection
16:39 silbe lucian: I meant why not to use it. So it lacks important features?
16:39 lucian silbe: pygi? not anymore, afaik
16:39 but at the time, it was very deficient
16:39 silbe if so, adding explicit GConf support might be the better way.
16:39 lucian: no, libsoup I mean
16:40 lucian oh, reason not to use libsoup? it's not native python
16:40 an extra dependency, etc
16:40 silbe lucian: a dependency we've already been shipping for a long time
16:40 (except for the non-existing Python binding of course)
16:41 lucian i don't see an advantage over just reading proxy settings somewhere
16:41 python's urllib also looks for proxy settings somewhere, perhaps sugar's shell could make sure urllib finds them
16:41 silbe lucian: You're the expert, I trust you on this. So explicit support for GConf it is.
16:42 lucian silbe: uh, i'm not an expert :)
16:42 silbe lucian: that's the http_proxy setting mentioned above. The drawback of environment variables is that you can't change them (globally) at runtime.
16:42 lucian i think python's urllib looks for http_proxy, and maybe gconf in gnome? don't know
16:43 silbe lucian: in this case you are :)
16:43 lucian i mean, activities need explicit proxy support anyway
16:43 it seems easier (and less complex) to read gconf settings and go on using python's libs
16:43 silbe lucian: the Python standard library doesn't have gconf support AFAIK, so it couldn't have support for using the Gnome proxy settings.
16:43 lucian than to change everything to libsoup
16:44 silbe lucian: for the existing activities, yes. But if libsoup were easy enough to use it wouldn't make a difference for new activities and we might get other benefits over time.
16:45 but that's something to consider once we actually live in a pygi world, not before.
16:45 lucian silbe: perhaps, i'm sceptical at this point. i should have a clearer opinion after i play with libsoup in Surf
16:45 yama would this be useful? http://code.google.com/p/pacparser/
16:46 silbe lucian: looking forward to it, no matter what the result turns out to be.
16:46 lucian so there's 1) read gconf proxy settings, use python libs. depends: gconf or 2) use libsoup. depends: gconf, pygi, libsoup
16:48 silbe: sugar-toolkit could monkey-patch urllib2 to change the default proxy handler http://docs.python.org/library[…]lib2.html#urllib2.ProxyHandler
16:48 silbe yama: sounds like it would be useful for the NetworkManager hook. It'd still have issues with the interactive credentials prompt, of course.
16:48 lucian slightly evil, but it'd work transparently
16:49 silbe lucian: interesting. We could provide an alternative ProxyHandler implementation that activities could use.
16:49 lucian the problem with PAC is that the only real way to fully support it is to eval the JS in a browser
16:49 silbe: or that
16:49 yama how do non-browser applications behave when the come across a proxy that has an interactive credentials prompt?
16:50 lucian yama: die gallantly, most of the time
16:50 yama ugh I was afraid of that
16:50 lucian i may be wrong. i'd be glad if i were
16:50 silbe lucian: we've been bitten by silently changed "implementation details" (that I considered to be public API) in the past, so I'd be careful about doing the monkey-patching in sugar-toolkit.
16:51 lucian silbe: yes, which is why i mentioned it's slightly evil
16:51 but providing a proxyhandler is a good idea, and pythonic too. requiring libsoup would surprise most python devs
16:53 yama ideally there should be a UI for entering the proxy too
16:53 because right now we're getting users to switch to gnome
16:53 lucian i thought networkmanager supported pac with a JS interpreter? or was that just a plan?
16:53 yama just to enter the proxy, then they switch back
16:54 silbe yama: depends on how they get their proxy settings in the first place. The Gnome GConf settings don't support interactive prompts. Most applications that support using PAC files are probably browsers and would show the prompt. I'm not sure how the prompts are done in the PAC, but I'd expect them not to be implemented in generic JavaScript software like for pacparser.
16:54 lucian yama: i agree, that's a good fallback
16:55 silbe: the one i've seen was just JS, so needed eval
16:55 but an expert opinion would help
16:55 silbe yama: you could ship a ControlPanel section. Just put the file into /usr/share/sugar/extensions/cpsection .
16:56 yama silbe: is it that simple - just drop a file in the directory? Do you have any info on that?
16:58 silbe yama: it's explicitly designed that way. The existing Control Panel sections all work that way. I was slightly wrong, though: You need to use a subdirectory, not a single file.
16:59 yama silbe: could we (as a short-term fix) use it to launch gnome-network-properties?
17:00 right now I have that implemented as an activity launcher
17:00 silbe yama: I don't think so, no. But you could do an activity wrapper for it.
17:01 yama: long term I'd like to try replacing the Sugar Control Panel code with something based on the Gnome one. But that won't help you right now.
17:02 yama http://code.google.com/p/libproxy/ looks good
17:04 oh wait... "Because proxy authentication is protocol specific, it is outside the scope of this library. libproxy tells you WHICH proxy servers to try to use, not HOW to use them."
17:04 but it looks really good for everything else
17:04 lucian yes, it does
17:04 perhaps nm should use it :)
17:05 silbe yama: it doesn't support interactive prompts either
17:06 if it weren't for the interactive prompt, the obvious solution would be to add GConf support to applications and activities and adding proxy settings support to NetworkManager...
17:08 lucian wishes we could just tell them to take their interactive prompts and stuff them where the sun don't shine :)
17:08 yama I think the quote I provided above means that it's going to be basically impossible to support interactive prompts
17:08 lucian sadly, lots of networks do it
17:09 yama In the main school system we're working in, I convinced them to give us a normal proxy host to use for non-browser stuff
17:09 it's restricted in what it can access, but at least it works
17:09 then we use the wpad file for browse and firefox
17:10 silbe yama: it's definitely problematic at best. You couldn't run background jobs (e.g. the yum updater) until after the user has entered the proxy credentials...
17:10 lucian is there a reason they want authentication?
17:10 yama lucian: I think they want to track what each child is looking at
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17:10 yama lucian: and also provide different permissions to teachers, etc.
17:10 silbe yama: you could sniff the credentials once using tcpdump and save them for later use. ;)
17:11 yama hehe
17:11 silbe yama: is that even legal? (privacy concerns)
17:11 yama I think in practice, teachers will just use the same credentials for all XOS
17:11 lucian yama: i guess telling them that's a little evil and very useless won't convince them to stop
17:11 yama silbe: child protection is considered to be more important
17:12 lucian but... that won't work
17:12 yama silbe: better to stop them looking at porn or being subjected to online predators
17:12 lucian: maybe true, but that's not our decision :(
17:12 silbe yama: "protection" seems to be a subjective thing... :-/
17:12 yama silbe: indeed :S
17:12 lucian true. even if they want to do that, there are better ways
17:12 they should use no proxy by default and do filtering
17:13 if someone wants to remove the filtering, they need to use a proxy, with auth
17:13 that way, they can't track individual children, but can still "protect" them
17:13 silbe yama: do they log the full traffic, not just the URLs? Otherwise I don't see how it'd help with "online predators"...
17:13 lucian and teachers can look at porn all they want
17:14 yama I have no idea what or how they're doing it
17:14 silbe ok
17:14 yama but the creepy part is that it's done by a third party
17:14 silbe yama: !?!
17:14 lucian wtf
17:14 yama a company called Blue Coat
17:15 silbe yama: so they're legal o
17:15 yama they do the filtering for most of the schools in the country
17:15 silbe yama: so they're legal "online predators"?
17:15 yama I suppose so :(
17:15 lucian my uni does it, and it's semi-legal. but they'd get sued out of existence if they outsourced it
17:15 yama I'm not agreeing with it, but it is a reality that we have to work in
17:16 lucian yama: indeed
17:16 silbe yama: yup, we should get back on track.
17:17 lucian yama: after auth in a browser, does the proxy work without auth?
17:17 silbe yama: considering the time, is there anything left you'd like to discuss right now?
17:18 cjl yama, Blue Coat is a pretty well known name in edge protection and WAN optimization.
17:18 yama lucian: the wpad doesn't work without auth. I've got them to provide an alternate URL that we can use for http_proxy, but it has more restrictions on it.
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17:19 yama and that's in only one school system. I don't know how the others will go. Maybe they'll mandate the wpad only.
17:19 and they use blue coat too
17:20 silbe: I think tch was working on getting WebDAV working?
17:21 basically, we need a way for teachers to easily share files with their class
17:21 we can probably ask the admins to activate WebDAV on their files servers
17:21 dfarning_afk is now known as dfarning
17:22 silbe yama: we talked about it, yep. Not sure how far he got. We should add it to the agenda of the OLPC-AU / AC meeting.
17:22 yama would be really nice if we could mount a WebDAV volume in Sugar
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17:24 yama silbe: will do
17:24 where do recent releases of Sugar store their network connections settings?
17:25 are they still managed in its own file, or are they system settings?
17:25 storing the connection as a system setting will allow sharing with GNOME
17:25 silbe yama: BTW, you could try something like fusedav or davfs2 in the meantime. It probably has the usual issues of network file systems (i.e. not coping too well with non-permanent connectivity) and performance wouldn't be perfect either, but it should work right now.
17:26 yama silbe: martin langhoff suggested WebDAV because it deals better with intermittent connectivity. But nothing is perfect.
17:27 silbe yama: Sugar 0.92+ is still based on NM 0.8 and using User Settings. Porting to NM 0.9 will require significant effort. It's also something I still need to write a mail about so we can discuss tomorrow during the Design Team meeting. To support hidden SSIDs and other non-trivial scenarios we need some design changes.
17:27 lucian afaik WebDAV is a superset of http, so it's as stateless
17:28 silbe yama: WebDAV itself does. Mounting WebDAV as a file system does not necessarily inherit these properties.
17:28 yama silbe: ah, I think I raised the issue of hidden SSIDs at a previous meeting
17:29 our solution for now is to load nm-connection-editor, configure the connection, then tick the "Available to all users" box to make it a system connection.
17:31 silbe yama: does that work well enough for you? I do the same, but because of some Sugar internals it's problematic. I can't activate the connection using Sugar and if I get out of reach it pops up an authentication dialog. It never retries it got into that state; I have to use "nmcli nm sleep ; nmcli nm wake" to make it retry.
17:31 The next release of NM might at least fix the latter part (retrying the connection after some time).
17:33 yama silbe: I haven't seen that, but I haven't tested it too much (we don't talk about system connections to users yet)
17:33 silbe: are you saying that you've found system connections to be less reliable than user connections?
17:35 silbe yama: not in general, just in combination with Sugar - that's the first issue I mentioned. The others are the same for User Settings, but problematic because of the first one.
17:36 yama: if you try to activate a connection with Sugar, it will look up the connection in it's own User Settings service (using internal API).
17:36 yama silbe: what I do is clear the network connections cache in sugar-control-panel. It works better to connect in GNOME first, then set it to be a system setting, then move back to Sugar
17:36 silbe: ah, yes that's my experience also
17:37 silbe yama: this should all be fixed by the NM 0.9 port, but it's a lot of work (as would be fixing the issues individually).
17:38 yama silbe: is there a target release/date for a Sugar version based on NM 0.9?
17:38 I understand it's a lot of work, so I don't mean to sound impatient
17:38 silbe I wanted to write up a draft for the internal architecture of the NM support (inside Sugar) for some time, but still haven't got around to do it. :-/
17:39 yama I know the feeling... so much to do
17:40 silbe yama: I don't think it'll make 0.94 I'm afraid, we're too late in the release cycle for such major changes. But if somebody starts working on it soon, we can consider shipping it in DX-3. AIUI most deployments see DX-3 as a pre-release for DX-4 anyway. ;)
17:41 (i.e. it would be a custom Dextrose enhancement at first and be merged upstream for Sugar 0.96)
17:42 yama silbe: deployments aren't taking DX3 seriously?
17:43 silbe yama: no, it's a timing issue. They're not upgrading more than once a year.
17:43 yama silbe: yes, we are the same. We want to make our main releases yearly
17:44 silbe: and we want to release before school starts in January
17:44 dfarning silbe what are you using to refer to the Dec 2011 release?
17:44 silbe dfarning: DX-4
17:45 yama oh I see
17:45 I was thinking DX-3 was the Dec release
17:45 when is DX-3 due?
17:46 silbe yama: it's going to be in parallel with the next OLPC release (11.2.0 IIRC). Let me check the timeline...
17:46 dfarning sible yama this is a communitcation issue. lets start referring to the release in December 2011 as DX12. which will be the 'official' name.
17:47 silbe yama: current target date is July 18th 2011
17:47 dfarning: ok. Sorry, forgot about that (we discussed it before).
17:47 yama okay DX12 it is
17:47 I'm still deciding what to call our release :S
17:48 dfarning yama it is confusing because from an upstream point of view silbe is syncing with olpc 's next reslease which for dx is a test release.
17:49 sorry about that, I'll get back out of your way so you can discuss real issues :(
17:50 silbe dfarning: you're not in the way. And thanks for reminding me - it would have increased the confusion if I had continued to call it DX-4 instead of DX-12.
17:50 yama dfarning: no I agree, communications are important. Our current build is 10.1.3-au2, which I've found to be too unwieldy to communicate to teachers.
17:51 so our next release will have the year as its version number
17:52 silbe yama: OLPC is basically doing the same - except that they're using 2-digit year numbers, so everyone (well, me at least) confuses them with Fedora release numbers (that are currently in about the same ballpark)...
17:55 yama version numbering is interesting marketing. I used the 10.1.3-au2 style because I wanted tech people to make the association with OLPC OS 10.1.3. But it's more important to be clear with the teachers. Tech people will understand that XO-AU OS 12 is based on Dextrose 12.
17:56 dfarning yama +1 all teacher care about is something very simple like the year.
17:58 yama silbe whould you mind stepping back from technical stuff to talk about priorities and how to set them.
18:00 yama dfarning: did you have anything specific in mind?
18:02 we need to work out how to port our work over to DX
18:02 that's something we'll be investigating
18:02 we are also interested in contributing to the testing and QA
18:03 dfarning yama, I think AC has learned about as much as it can from PY so I would like to see if we can work more closely with AU to help us set our priorities.
18:04 yama dfarning: working with existing network infrastructure is a big one
18:04 proxy servers, files servers, etc.
18:05 most of our schools are part of a WAN, with its own resources
18:05 I raised the point earlier about WebDAV
18:06 making Sugar and GNOME work better would be great as well
18:06 *work better with each other
18:06 sharing files, settings, etc.
18:07 on the testing side, our first phase of our testing framework project has just completed
18:08 and we'd like to apply the next phase to Dextrose
18:08 dfarning let;s take this off list into an email. it seems like you have thought about it alot.
18:09 yama sure
18:09 dfarning sorry for inturpring your meeting :(
18:10 yama No that's fine. It's 4am here so I really need some sleep. silbe and I discussed having a meeting to discuss our needs better. I can send an agenda.
18:10 dfarning yama +1
18:11 yama dfarning: you might want to read over the backlog of my conversation with silbe and lucian, because it covers a lot of what I wanted to cover.
18:11 dfarning I'll email you my plans -- I will. good night.
18:12 yama okay let's exchange ideas by mail, then we can reconvene and discuss.
18:12 dfarning yama +1
18:13 yama good night all :)
18:14 silbe yama: good night!
18:15 dfarning good night
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