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#sugar-meeting, 2011-05-19

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17:44 mattva01 rgs_: I just saw your email, I think moving turtleart stuff to core is a smart move
17:45 it makes the packaging easier
17:45 rgs_ mattva01: yeah, it was Robot101's idea
17:46 mattva01: it also avoids duplication
17:46 mattva01: which is nice
17:46 mattva01: lets wait for Walter
17:46 mattva01 kk
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17:51 Mokurai 'ssup?
17:51 rgs_ Mokurai: are you packaging Sugar for Ubuntu?
17:51 Mokurai No, just testing.
17:52 rgs_ Mokurai: TA packaging and Walter is giving away chocolate cakes
17:52 Mokurai: ah nice, from git directly?
17:52 Mokurai I was testing the turtleart package in Ubuntu. There is a missing library.
17:52 mattva01 turtleart-gnome is really out of date, though it worked last time I checked
17:52 Mokurai I am reduced to using Turtle Art Mini.
17:53 It works, but there are of course features missing. :(
17:53 rgs_ Mokurai: hmm, who packaged that?
17:53 Mokurai: is this a TurtleArt for Gnome package?
17:53 Mokurai So I volunteered to walterbender yesterday to organize a proper QA activity for Sugar activity packages in all distros.
17:54 rgs_ Mokurai: or you are running the sugar-turtleart package from Gnome
17:54 Mokurai: ah nice
17:54 Mokurai rgs_: No, this is the Ubuntu package for Sugar
17:54 walterbender: 'ssup?
17:55 rgs_ Mokurai: ah, I see.
17:55 mattva01 oh good, then I'm not too blame :p
17:55 walterbender I don't think anyone is maintaining the Ubuntu packages at the moment...
17:55 rgs_ mattva01: so, you are targetting Fedora right?
17:55 Mokurai I will have turtleart materials in the Wiki soon for preschool math concepts.
17:55 walterbender something we need to step up to as Canaonical is finally interested
17:55 rgs_ walterbender: Ubuntu package == sugar-turtleart ?
17:55 walterbender: there is no pure GNOME package there (yet) ?
17:55 walterbender: in TA or Sugar?
17:55 walterbender rgs_: I think there is an old ppm
17:56 Mokurai mattva01: we have to start with Fedora/yum and Debian/apt, and then do all of the distros listed in the Wiki.
17:56 walterbender for Sugar, which includes TA in Fructose...
17:56 rgs_ walterbender: Mokurai : mattva01 : so lets get to the packaging questions, I have to go back to hacking in a bit
17:56 walterbender prob. ~v80 or so
17:56 rgs_: +1
17:56 rgs_ background info:
17:56 walterbender mattva01: rgs_ and I did a lot of refactoring of the code since you last saw it
17:56 rgs_ back in Feb, we rolled some packages for Fedora with Walter:
17:56 http://people.sugarlabs.org/~r[…]cs/turtleart.spec
17:57 the spec is just what probinson did for sugar-turtleart but with GNOME-isms baked in
17:57 its *not* what we want
17:57 cause the turtleart-gnome and turtleart-sugar packages would overlap alot
17:57 so we need to break that down
17:58 as walterbender says, TA has seen lots of bits and pieces move all around
17:58 (for good!)
17:58 mattva01 yeah, that's why turtleart-gnome was a pain, most UI changes broke it pretty horribly
17:58 rgs_ walterbender: what core pieces would you say we have? a) core bits b) sugar front end c) gnome front end d) plugins ?
17:58 walterbender rgs_: well, and the collaboration bits
17:59 rgs_ walterbender: but that would be core
17:59 walterbender: i mean, it goes together with the logo interpreter and the block classes, etc?
17:59 walterbender: its being factored to deal with Sugar and non-Sugar ..
17:59 mattva01 speaking of which, do you ever plan to merge the turtleartsite stuff with core?
17:59 rgs_ walterbender: oh right, maybe we shouldn't ship the pure Gnome pieces for turtleart-sugar ?
17:59 walterbender: (pure GNOME collaboration bits)
18:00 mattva01: we never solved the auth part
18:00 walterbender mattva01: it is pulled out as a gnome-plugin
18:01 mattva01 rgs_: it was pretty hackish when I wrote it, if you have any ideas, I'd be happy to modify the site to work with them
18:01 walterbender mattva01: I would like a general Sugar solution... made some headway in convincing the developers at Sugar Camp, but no code
18:02 mattva01: we really need to leverage the kids' public keys and skip the login bit; grab descriptions from the Journal... all general Sugar not TA specific
18:02 rgs_ is dumping ideas on what are the main parts of TA in the wiki as we speak
18:02 walterbender: user/passwd would work for the meanwhile...
18:02 walterbender rgs_: that is what the gnome version uses
18:02 one more consideration for our discussion: TA vs TB.
18:02 rgs_ walterbender: i meant for Sugar too
18:03 walterbender rgs_: we could do that... maybe we should... but I would like it in the toolkit some how... not each activity doing it on its own
18:03 mattva01 walterbender:I was thinking the same thing...keyauth would be nice. I made it user/pass since that made the most sense for gnome
18:04 walterbender re TA vs TB, the difference is simply a plugin, but Brian wants TA to stay small subset and TB can be much richer
18:04 Mokurai walterbender: By TA, do you mean TurtleArt  Mini?
18:04 walterbender so maybe we need to consider either ditching TA packaging or just making it be TB without the plugin
18:05 TA Mini is an artifact of the Sugar bundle scheme...
18:05 but yes, it is really TA and TA is really TB ... clear as mud
18:05 mattva01 walterbender: I'm a bit out of the loop, what's the real difference between TA and TB at the current time?
18:05 walterbender mattva01: the turtleblocks_extras plugin
18:05 mattva01: which brings in a bunch of additional blocks
18:06 (actually, the camera and sensor plugins too)
18:06 mattva01 walterbender: ok that makes sense, shouldn't it be turtleart-extra or something though ?
18:06 a lot less confusing
18:07 walterbender if we do our job well, it will be easy for Butia to package the Arduino version, which is TB with an additional plugin
18:07 rgs_ walterbender: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0[…]rtleArt#Packaging
18:07 mattva01: ^
18:07 hold on, editing something
18:08 walterbender: refresh now
18:08 mattva01: Mokurai : ^
18:08 walterbender: makes any sense?
18:09 mattva01 rgs_: that looks great
18:09 walterbender rgs_: maybe move this to Activities/TurtleArt instead?
18:09 Mokurai rgs_: Got it.
18:09 rgs_ walterbender: indeed, i'll move it now
18:10 walterbender rgs_: should TB plugin be separate... it is more fundumental than the other plugins
18:10 rgs_ walterbender: oh, that wasn't clear
18:10 walterbender rgs_: and then a butia package? and others...
18:10 rgs_ walterbender: for me each plugin is a package
18:10 walterbender: wouldn't put them all in the same bag
18:10 walterbender rgs_: OK... great...
18:11 Mokurai walterbender: That would certainly help me.
18:11 mattva01 rgs_: yeah, that does make sense, though make sure we don't get into the zope situation, with thousands of packages :p
18:12 walterbender I can imagine a handful more plugins: WeDo, GoGo, NXT, ... but not thousands
18:12 Mokurai mattva01: But having thousands of packages is the best part of Firefox! :)
18:13 walterbender maybe the samples could be separate though... I could imagine (a) making samples for different topics and (b) in different languages
18:13 Mokurai walterbender: A large handful, if I know you. You keep having a better idea.
18:13 rgs_ walterbender: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/A[…]rtleArt#Packaging
18:13 walterbender turtleart-samples-es
18:13 mattva01 turtleart-data-* for language packs?
18:13 or yeah
18:13 walterbender turtleart-math
18:14 Mokurai turtle-art with icons on the blocks instead of words. No localization.
18:14 walterbender mattva01: the core language stuff is lots of files, but small...
18:14 rgs_ so now we have a canonical place to discuss how to split and distribute Turtle Art
18:14 i would suggest we all set a watch for that page, so we know when changes are made
18:14 walterbender: should we move on to setup.py wizardry?
18:14 mattva01: Mokurai : ^
18:15 Mokurai rgs_: Got it.
18:15 walterbender rgs_: sure
18:15 mattva01 rgs_:yeah
18:15 rgs_ walterbender: hmm, some how the `Watch' button is gone from that section. We should fix that later
18:15 mattva01: so you'll be targetting Fedora right?
18:15 walterbender rgs_: it is the star
18:16 Mokurai Yes, that packaging list is much better.
18:16 rgs_ walterbender: grew up in a world of black and white terminal emulators. Thanks for showing me the way
18:16 Mokurai Do we have a place where packagers for the various distros list themselves?
18:16 mattva01 rgs_: yeah, with turtleart-gnome if possible
18:16 rgs_ mattva01: so you could use the .spec i pointed you too
18:16 *to
18:17 mattva01 rgs_:indeed, it was very helpful
18:17 and answered my questions
18:17 rgs_ mattva01: i am not sure how to drive ./setup.py to tell it were to drop what
18:17 walterbender rgs_: took me a while to figure that out too...
18:17 rgs_ mattva01: so you'll have to look that up, or hack the .spec (but better find out the correct way to do it)
18:17 walterbender rgs_: you know about this character: ?
18:17 rgs_ nice!
18:17 walterbender: oh, we have an issue in the code that would block packaging
18:17 Mokurai walterbender: Did you write up how to do that?
18:18 mattva01 rgs_: i know some setup.py sorcery :p
18:18 rgs_ walterbender: all of TurtleArt's code is build on top of the assumption of being relative to the source code
18:18 mattva01: nice!
18:18 walterbender rgs_: err. yeah.
18:18 rgs_ mattva01: so to effectively share turtleart-core among the Gnome and Sugar front-end, we need to either:
18:18 Mokurai walterbender: As an experienced tech writer, I am willing to take rough notes on procedures and fix them up.
18:18 walterbender rgs_: I need to learn a better way... is there a good example of best practice
18:18 rgs_ a) treat TA core bits as a Python module (would be break bitfrost?)
18:19 b) refactor stuff to play according to the new rules
18:19 mattva01 rgs_: oh right bitfrost >.<
18:19 walterbender rgs_: I don't think it would break bitfrost... it would be read_only
18:19 rgs_ walterbender: oh, nice, all good
18:19 walterbender: you mean an example on how to avoid relying on the source being in one place?
18:19 walterbender rgs_: yes
18:20 rgs_ walterbender: i am not sure, we should check with an old Python-ist
18:20 walterbender: i've checked one other app
18:20 (a password manager for Gnome)
18:20 and what it does is
18:20 walterbender rgs_: I have some very brittle hacks in the code right now...
18:20 rgs_ it has all of its core files in /usr/lib/python/FOO/
18:20 (i.e.: where all Python modules go)
18:20 and then
18:20 import foo
18:20 foo.magic()
18:20 mattva01 rgs_: walterbender: I usually put something in the path dependent on distro
18:20 rgs_ walterbender: we'd have to figure the same for images too
18:21 i.e.: put them in /usr/share/turtleart or something
18:21 walterbender: note that its one approach, but we'd be converting a part of TurtleArt into a library/module
18:21 i wonder if it affects Sugar somehow
18:21 Mokurai mattva01: Could that be the problem on Ubuntu, where TA can't find tapalette.py?
18:21 rgs_ (well, it adds some complexity, the activity won't be self-contained anymore)
18:22 mattva01 Mokurai: i'd have to look at it, but yeah
18:22 rgs_ if this is a problem for Sugar (i.e.:, factoring some bits out as  a python module)  we would have to ponder another path
18:22 Mokurai: you are either missing the file or hitting one of our paths are hard-coded limitations
18:23 walterbender: could find some time to discuss with silbe/erikos this idea of factoring out core bits of TA as a Python module?
18:23 walterbender: the major drawback i see is that you would need to be Root to install it
18:23 walterbender rgs_: I think it already like that
18:23 Mokurai The file isn't in the package. Was it supposed to be in a dependency?
18:23 rgs_ walterbender: unless we do something clever like
18:24 walterbender: a) check TA is installed as a system module b) if not (old Sugar way) fallback to loading TA  as a module by adding your current dir to the Python list of modules directory
18:24 walterbender: i think that could be pretty clean and robust
18:24 mattva01 rgs_: I like that idea
18:24 Mokurai rgs_: second the motion.
18:25 rgs_ walterbender: you mean already like that in the a) look for activities in /usr/something vs b) look in /home/foo/Activities ? Or in playing with Python's modules paths ?
18:25 mattva01: Mokurai: cool, so we'll need to do some hacking before we are ready to ship packages
18:25 walterbender rgs_: most of Suagr is installed in site-packages
18:25 sugar and jarabe
18:26 rgs_ walterbender: well but kids don't usually update their Sugar stuff
18:26 walterbender: how would we ship a turtleart-core update?
18:26 Mokurai rgs_: Let me know which distros this will affect, so I can set up to test them.
18:26 walterbender rgs_: good question
18:27 rgs_ walterbender: (unless we do the first look in your path and then try loading turtle art from the system)
18:27 walterbender as long as we look locally first...
18:27 rgs_ walterbender: yeah
18:27 walterbender: this dance might work
18:27 try:
18:27 mattva01 rgs_: that works for me, though I need to get on all the mailing lists and dev stuff, i've been out of a loops  a while, and was a student last time I worked on sugar stuff at all
18:27 rgs_  import turtleart
18:27 rescue:
18:27  sys.path += "."
18:27  import turtleart
18:28 walterbender: so when we generate a .xo we'll just keep doing the same thing
18:28 walterbender: and when you try to run the gnome frontend import turtleart will just work
18:28 cause it'll be installed in /usr/lib/python2.7/something/
18:29 mattva01: no worries, this changes shouldn't be that big and will probably fixing some bugs that are out there. We just need to put some order in the way Turtle Art finds its components
18:29 walterbender rgs_: I would rather do it the other way around... look in . first... then sys.path
18:29 Mokurai rgs_: Presumably this will affect packaging for other activities.
18:30 rgs_ walterbender: right, optimize the Sugar case. Makes sense
18:30 walterbender rgs_: I'd like all of Sugar to work that way... copy a component into . and then modify it... delete it and you are back to the installed version
18:30 Mokurai walterbender: +1
18:30 walterbender rgs_: so viewsource would have an option to do the copy
18:31 mattva01 that's actually a great way to get back to the original design goals of sugar, it makes it a lot easier to modify
18:31 walterbender rgs_: seems the most straightforward way...
18:32 rgs_ walterbender: i like that
18:32 so guys, gotta get back to work
18:32 walterbender rgs_:  ok. thanks
18:32 rgs_ can we wrap this up?
18:33 any other questions?
18:33 walterbender mattva01: do you have enough to get started on a repackaging?
18:33 mattva01 no thats good, thanks rgs_:
18:33 yeah
18:33 I do
18:33 rgs_ who will give the loading TA parts as modules a try?
18:33 walterbender mattva01: I will flesh out the table a bit for you
18:33 rgs_ mattva01: you'll find me on #sugar or via email
18:34 Mokurai Thanks, everyone.
18:34 mattva01 walterbender, rgs_ : that sounds excellent
18:34 rgs_ nice, i think this new loading approach will make life easier for everyone (packages, plugin hackers, etc)
18:35 mattva01 I'll experiment, with some of the sugar stuff as well, and report back
18:35 rgs_ -> emacs
18:36 mattva01 thanks walterbender, gonna start hacking on this over the next few days
18:36 walterbender mattva01: good... let me know if you have any questions
18:36 mattva01 current git master have any showstopping bugs, I should know about ? :p
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18:46 walterbender mattva01: no... it is v108 and I have tested it pretty throughly.
18:47 mattva01: I am waiting to hear back from one person re some sensor stuff but otherwise it is ready to go
18:47 mattva01, rgs_ I just fleshed out the packaging list on the wiki
18:48 mattva01 walterbender: excellent!
18:52 walterbender: we probably should have made this an official meeting, seeing as this is a pretty major change to how stuff is installed systemwide
18:52 walterbender mattva01: prob...
18:53 mattva01: it is just TA for the time being... but hopefully an example for everything else
18:54 mattva01 walterbender: gotcha, I hope it does spread, it eliminates a lot of the hassle with packaging
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