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| 17:44 | mattva01 | rgs_: I just saw your email, I think moving turtleart stuff to core is a smart move |
| 17:45 | it makes the packaging easier | |
| 17:45 | rgs_ | mattva01: yeah, it was Robot101's idea |
| 17:46 | mattva01: it also avoids duplication | |
| 17:46 | mattva01: which is nice | |
| 17:46 | mattva01: lets wait for Walter | |
| 17:46 | mattva01 | kk |
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| 17:51 | Mokurai | 'ssup? |
| 17:51 | rgs_ | Mokurai: are you packaging Sugar for Ubuntu? |
| 17:51 | Mokurai | No, just testing. |
| 17:52 | rgs_ | Mokurai: TA packaging and Walter is giving away chocolate cakes |
| 17:52 | Mokurai: ah nice, from git directly? | |
| 17:52 | Mokurai | I was testing the turtleart package in Ubuntu. There is a missing library. |
| 17:52 | mattva01 | turtleart-gnome is really out of date, though it worked last time I checked |
| 17:52 | Mokurai | I am reduced to using Turtle Art Mini. |
| 17:53 | It works, but there are of course features missing. :( | |
| 17:53 | rgs_ | Mokurai: hmm, who packaged that? |
| 17:53 | Mokurai: is this a TurtleArt for Gnome package? | |
| 17:53 | Mokurai | So I volunteered to walterbender yesterday to organize a proper QA activity for Sugar activity packages in all distros. |
| 17:54 | rgs_ | Mokurai: or you are running the sugar-turtleart package from Gnome |
| 17:54 | Mokurai: ah nice | |
| 17:54 | Mokurai | rgs_: No, this is the Ubuntu package for Sugar |
| 17:54 | walterbender: 'ssup? | |
| 17:55 | rgs_ | Mokurai: ah, I see. |
| 17:55 | mattva01 | oh good, then I'm not too blame :p |
| 17:55 | walterbender | I don't think anyone is maintaining the Ubuntu packages at the moment... |
| 17:55 | rgs_ | mattva01: so, you are targetting Fedora right? |
| 17:55 | Mokurai | I will have turtleart materials in the Wiki soon for preschool math concepts. |
| 17:55 | walterbender | something we need to step up to as Canaonical is finally interested |
| 17:55 | rgs_ | walterbender: Ubuntu package == sugar-turtleart ? |
| 17:55 | walterbender: there is no pure GNOME package there (yet) ? | |
| 17:55 | walterbender: in TA or Sugar? | |
| 17:55 | walterbender | rgs_: I think there is an old ppm |
| 17:56 | Mokurai | mattva01: we have to start with Fedora/yum and Debian/apt, and then do all of the distros listed in the Wiki. |
| 17:56 | walterbender | for Sugar, which includes TA in Fructose... |
| 17:56 | rgs_ | walterbender: Mokurai : mattva01 : so lets get to the packaging questions, I have to go back to hacking in a bit |
| 17:56 | walterbender | prob. ~v80 or so |
| 17:56 | rgs_: +1 | |
| 17:56 | rgs_ | background info: |
| 17:56 | walterbender | mattva01: rgs_ and I did a lot of refactoring of the code since you last saw it |
| 17:56 | rgs_ | back in Feb, we rolled some packages for Fedora with Walter: |
| 17:56 | http://people.sugarlabs.org/~r[…]cs/turtleart.spec | |
| 17:57 | the spec is just what probinson did for sugar-turtleart but with GNOME-isms baked in | |
| 17:57 | its *not* what we want | |
| 17:57 | cause the turtleart-gnome and turtleart-sugar packages would overlap alot | |
| 17:57 | so we need to break that down | |
| 17:58 | as walterbender says, TA has seen lots of bits and pieces move all around | |
| 17:58 | (for good!) | |
| 17:58 | mattva01 | yeah, that's why turtleart-gnome was a pain, most UI changes broke it pretty horribly |
| 17:58 | rgs_ | walterbender: what core pieces would you say we have? a) core bits b) sugar front end c) gnome front end d) plugins ? |
| 17:58 | walterbender | rgs_: well, and the collaboration bits |
| 17:59 | rgs_ | walterbender: but that would be core |
| 17:59 | walterbender: i mean, it goes together with the logo interpreter and the block classes, etc? | |
| 17:59 | walterbender: its being factored to deal with Sugar and non-Sugar .. | |
| 17:59 | mattva01 | speaking of which, do you ever plan to merge the turtleartsite stuff with core? |
| 17:59 | rgs_ | walterbender: oh right, maybe we shouldn't ship the pure Gnome pieces for turtleart-sugar ? |
| 17:59 | walterbender: (pure GNOME collaboration bits) | |
| 18:00 | mattva01: we never solved the auth part | |
| 18:00 | walterbender | mattva01: it is pulled out as a gnome-plugin |
| 18:01 | mattva01 | rgs_: it was pretty hackish when I wrote it, if you have any ideas, I'd be happy to modify the site to work with them |
| 18:01 | walterbender | mattva01: I would like a general Sugar solution... made some headway in convincing the developers at Sugar Camp, but no code |
| 18:02 | mattva01: we really need to leverage the kids' public keys and skip the login bit; grab descriptions from the Journal... all general Sugar not TA specific | |
| 18:02 | rgs_ | is dumping ideas on what are the main parts of TA in the wiki as we speak |
| 18:02 | walterbender: user/passwd would work for the meanwhile... | |
| 18:02 | walterbender | rgs_: that is what the gnome version uses |
| 18:02 | one more consideration for our discussion: TA vs TB. | |
| 18:02 | rgs_ | walterbender: i meant for Sugar too |
| 18:03 | walterbender | rgs_: we could do that... maybe we should... but I would like it in the toolkit some how... not each activity doing it on its own |
| 18:03 | mattva01 | walterbender:I was thinking the same thing...keyauth would be nice. I made it user/pass since that made the most sense for gnome |
| 18:04 | walterbender | re TA vs TB, the difference is simply a plugin, but Brian wants TA to stay small subset and TB can be much richer |
| 18:04 | Mokurai | walterbender: By TA, do you mean TurtleArt Mini? |
| 18:04 | walterbender | so maybe we need to consider either ditching TA packaging or just making it be TB without the plugin |
| 18:05 | TA Mini is an artifact of the Sugar bundle scheme... | |
| 18:05 | but yes, it is really TA and TA is really TB ... clear as mud | |
| 18:05 | mattva01 | walterbender: I'm a bit out of the loop, what's the real difference between TA and TB at the current time? |
| 18:05 | walterbender | mattva01: the turtleblocks_extras plugin |
| 18:05 | mattva01: which brings in a bunch of additional blocks | |
| 18:06 | (actually, the camera and sensor plugins too) | |
| 18:06 | mattva01 | walterbender: ok that makes sense, shouldn't it be turtleart-extra or something though ? |
| 18:06 | a lot less confusing | |
| 18:07 | walterbender | if we do our job well, it will be easy for Butia to package the Arduino version, which is TB with an additional plugin |
| 18:07 | rgs_ | walterbender: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0[…]rtleArt#Packaging |
| 18:07 | mattva01: ^ | |
| 18:07 | hold on, editing something | |
| 18:08 | walterbender: refresh now | |
| 18:08 | mattva01: Mokurai : ^ | |
| 18:08 | walterbender: makes any sense? | |
| 18:09 | mattva01 | rgs_: that looks great |
| 18:09 | walterbender | rgs_: maybe move this to Activities/TurtleArt instead? |
| 18:09 | Mokurai | rgs_: Got it. |
| 18:09 | rgs_ | walterbender: indeed, i'll move it now |
| 18:10 | walterbender | rgs_: should TB plugin be separate... it is more fundumental than the other plugins |
| 18:10 | rgs_ | walterbender: oh, that wasn't clear |
| 18:10 | walterbender | rgs_: and then a butia package? and others... |
| 18:10 | rgs_ | walterbender: for me each plugin is a package |
| 18:10 | walterbender: wouldn't put them all in the same bag | |
| 18:10 | walterbender | rgs_: OK... great... |
| 18:11 | Mokurai | walterbender: That would certainly help me. |
| 18:11 | mattva01 | rgs_: yeah, that does make sense, though make sure we don't get into the zope situation, with thousands of packages :p |
| 18:12 | walterbender | I can imagine a handful more plugins: WeDo, GoGo, NXT, ... but not thousands |
| 18:12 | Mokurai | mattva01: But having thousands of packages is the best part of Firefox! :) |
| 18:13 | walterbender | maybe the samples could be separate though... I could imagine (a) making samples for different topics and (b) in different languages |
| 18:13 | Mokurai | walterbender: A large handful, if I know you. You keep having a better idea. |
| 18:13 | rgs_ | walterbender: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/A[…]rtleArt#Packaging |
| 18:13 | walterbender | turtleart-samples-es |
| 18:13 | mattva01 | turtleart-data-* for language packs? |
| 18:13 | or yeah | |
| 18:13 | walterbender | turtleart-math |
| 18:14 | Mokurai | turtle-art with icons on the blocks instead of words. No localization. |
| 18:14 | walterbender | mattva01: the core language stuff is lots of files, but small... |
| 18:14 | rgs_ | so now we have a canonical place to discuss how to split and distribute Turtle Art |
| 18:14 | i would suggest we all set a watch for that page, so we know when changes are made | |
| 18:14 | walterbender: should we move on to setup.py wizardry? | |
| 18:14 | mattva01: Mokurai : ^ | |
| 18:15 | Mokurai | rgs_: Got it. |
| 18:15 | walterbender | rgs_: sure |
| 18:15 | mattva01 | rgs_:yeah |
| 18:15 | rgs_ | walterbender: hmm, some how the `Watch' button is gone from that section. We should fix that later |
| 18:15 | mattva01: so you'll be targetting Fedora right? | |
| 18:15 | walterbender | rgs_: it is the star |
| 18:16 | Mokurai | Yes, that packaging list is much better. |
| 18:16 | rgs_ | walterbender: grew up in a world of black and white terminal emulators. Thanks for showing me the way |
| 18:16 | Mokurai | Do we have a place where packagers for the various distros list themselves? |
| 18:16 | mattva01 | rgs_: yeah, with turtleart-gnome if possible |
| 18:16 | rgs_ | mattva01: so you could use the .spec i pointed you too |
| 18:16 | *to | |
| 18:17 | mattva01 | rgs_:indeed, it was very helpful |
| 18:17 | and answered my questions | |
| 18:17 | rgs_ | mattva01: i am not sure how to drive ./setup.py to tell it were to drop what |
| 18:17 | walterbender | rgs_: took me a while to figure that out too... |
| 18:17 | rgs_ | mattva01: so you'll have to look that up, or hack the .spec (but better find out the correct way to do it) |
| 18:17 | walterbender | rgs_: you know about this character: ? |
| 18:17 | rgs_ | nice! |
| 18:17 | walterbender: oh, we have an issue in the code that would block packaging | |
| 18:17 | Mokurai | walterbender: Did you write up how to do that? |
| 18:18 | mattva01 | rgs_: i know some setup.py sorcery :p |
| 18:18 | rgs_ | walterbender: all of TurtleArt's code is build on top of the assumption of being relative to the source code |
| 18:18 | mattva01: nice! | |
| 18:18 | walterbender | rgs_: err. yeah. |
| 18:18 | rgs_ | mattva01: so to effectively share turtleart-core among the Gnome and Sugar front-end, we need to either: |
| 18:18 | Mokurai | walterbender: As an experienced tech writer, I am willing to take rough notes on procedures and fix them up. |
| 18:18 | walterbender | rgs_: I need to learn a better way... is there a good example of best practice |
| 18:18 | rgs_ | a) treat TA core bits as a Python module (would be break bitfrost?) |
| 18:19 | b) refactor stuff to play according to the new rules | |
| 18:19 | mattva01 | rgs_: oh right bitfrost >.< |
| 18:19 | walterbender | rgs_: I don't think it would break bitfrost... it would be read_only |
| 18:19 | rgs_ | walterbender: oh, nice, all good |
| 18:19 | walterbender: you mean an example on how to avoid relying on the source being in one place? | |
| 18:19 | walterbender | rgs_: yes |
| 18:20 | rgs_ | walterbender: i am not sure, we should check with an old Python-ist |
| 18:20 | walterbender: i've checked one other app | |
| 18:20 | (a password manager for Gnome) | |
| 18:20 | and what it does is | |
| 18:20 | walterbender | rgs_: I have some very brittle hacks in the code right now... |
| 18:20 | rgs_ | it has all of its core files in /usr/lib/python/FOO/ |
| 18:20 | (i.e.: where all Python modules go) | |
| 18:20 | and then | |
| 18:20 | import foo | |
| 18:20 | foo.magic() | |
| 18:20 | mattva01 | rgs_: walterbender: I usually put something in the path dependent on distro |
| 18:20 | rgs_ | walterbender: we'd have to figure the same for images too |
| 18:21 | i.e.: put them in /usr/share/turtleart or something | |
| 18:21 | walterbender: note that its one approach, but we'd be converting a part of TurtleArt into a library/module | |
| 18:21 | i wonder if it affects Sugar somehow | |
| 18:21 | Mokurai | mattva01: Could that be the problem on Ubuntu, where TA can't find tapalette.py? |
| 18:21 | rgs_ | (well, it adds some complexity, the activity won't be self-contained anymore) |
| 18:22 | mattva01 | Mokurai: i'd have to look at it, but yeah |
| 18:22 | rgs_ | if this is a problem for Sugar (i.e.:, factoring some bits out as a python module) we would have to ponder another path |
| 18:22 | Mokurai: you are either missing the file or hitting one of our paths are hard-coded limitations | |
| 18:23 | walterbender: could find some time to discuss with silbe/erikos this idea of factoring out core bits of TA as a Python module? | |
| 18:23 | walterbender: the major drawback i see is that you would need to be Root to install it | |
| 18:23 | walterbender | rgs_: I think it already like that |
| 18:23 | Mokurai | The file isn't in the package. Was it supposed to be in a dependency? |
| 18:23 | rgs_ | walterbender: unless we do something clever like |
| 18:24 | walterbender: a) check TA is installed as a system module b) if not (old Sugar way) fallback to loading TA as a module by adding your current dir to the Python list of modules directory | |
| 18:24 | walterbender: i think that could be pretty clean and robust | |
| 18:24 | mattva01 | rgs_: I like that idea |
| 18:24 | Mokurai | rgs_: second the motion. |
| 18:25 | rgs_ | walterbender: you mean already like that in the a) look for activities in /usr/something vs b) look in /home/foo/Activities ? Or in playing with Python's modules paths ? |
| 18:25 | mattva01: Mokurai: cool, so we'll need to do some hacking before we are ready to ship packages | |
| 18:25 | walterbender | rgs_: most of Suagr is installed in site-packages |
| 18:25 | sugar and jarabe | |
| 18:26 | rgs_ | walterbender: well but kids don't usually update their Sugar stuff |
| 18:26 | walterbender: how would we ship a turtleart-core update? | |
| 18:26 | Mokurai | rgs_: Let me know which distros this will affect, so I can set up to test them. |
| 18:26 | walterbender | rgs_: good question |
| 18:27 | rgs_ | walterbender: (unless we do the first look in your path and then try loading turtle art from the system) |
| 18:27 | walterbender | as long as we look locally first... |
| 18:27 | rgs_ | walterbender: yeah |
| 18:27 | walterbender: this dance might work | |
| 18:27 | try: | |
| 18:27 | mattva01 | rgs_: that works for me, though I need to get on all the mailing lists and dev stuff, i've been out of a loops a while, and was a student last time I worked on sugar stuff at all |
| 18:27 | rgs_ | import turtleart |
| 18:27 | rescue: | |
| 18:27 | sys.path += "." | |
| 18:27 | import turtleart | |
| 18:28 | walterbender: so when we generate a .xo we'll just keep doing the same thing | |
| 18:28 | walterbender: and when you try to run the gnome frontend import turtleart will just work | |
| 18:28 | cause it'll be installed in /usr/lib/python2.7/something/ | |
| 18:29 | mattva01: no worries, this changes shouldn't be that big and will probably fixing some bugs that are out there. We just need to put some order in the way Turtle Art finds its components | |
| 18:29 | walterbender | rgs_: I would rather do it the other way around... look in . first... then sys.path |
| 18:29 | Mokurai | rgs_: Presumably this will affect packaging for other activities. |
| 18:30 | rgs_ | walterbender: right, optimize the Sugar case. Makes sense |
| 18:30 | walterbender | rgs_: I'd like all of Sugar to work that way... copy a component into . and then modify it... delete it and you are back to the installed version |
| 18:30 | Mokurai | walterbender: +1 |
| 18:30 | walterbender | rgs_: so viewsource would have an option to do the copy |
| 18:31 | mattva01 | that's actually a great way to get back to the original design goals of sugar, it makes it a lot easier to modify |
| 18:31 | walterbender | rgs_: seems the most straightforward way... |
| 18:32 | rgs_ | walterbender: i like that |
| 18:32 | so guys, gotta get back to work | |
| 18:32 | walterbender | rgs_: ok. thanks |
| 18:32 | rgs_ | can we wrap this up? |
| 18:33 | any other questions? | |
| 18:33 | walterbender | mattva01: do you have enough to get started on a repackaging? |
| 18:33 | mattva01 | no thats good, thanks rgs_: |
| 18:33 | yeah | |
| 18:33 | I do | |
| 18:33 | rgs_ | who will give the loading TA parts as modules a try? |
| 18:33 | walterbender | mattva01: I will flesh out the table a bit for you |
| 18:33 | rgs_ | mattva01: you'll find me on #sugar or via email |
| 18:34 | Mokurai | Thanks, everyone. |
| 18:34 | mattva01 | walterbender, rgs_ : that sounds excellent |
| 18:34 | rgs_ | nice, i think this new loading approach will make life easier for everyone (packages, plugin hackers, etc) |
| 18:35 | mattva01 | I'll experiment, with some of the sugar stuff as well, and report back |
| 18:35 | rgs_ | -> emacs |
| 18:36 | mattva01 | thanks walterbender, gonna start hacking on this over the next few days |
| 18:36 | walterbender | mattva01: good... let me know if you have any questions |
| 18:36 | mattva01 | current git master have any showstopping bugs, I should know about ? :p |
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| 18:46 | walterbender | mattva01: no... it is v108 and I have tested it pretty throughly. |
| 18:47 | mattva01: I am waiting to hear back from one person re some sensor stuff but otherwise it is ready to go | |
| 18:47 | mattva01, rgs_ I just fleshed out the packaging list on the wiki | |
| 18:48 | mattva01 | walterbender: excellent! |
| 18:52 | walterbender: we probably should have made this an official meeting, seeing as this is a pretty major change to how stuff is installed systemwide | |
| 18:52 | walterbender | mattva01: prob... |
| 18:53 | mattva01: it is just TA for the time being... but hopefully an example for everything else | |
| 18:54 | mattva01 | walterbender: gotcha, I hope it does spread, it eliminates a lot of the hassle with packaging |
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