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#sugar-meeting, 2011-04-30

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14:00 dirakx1 hi
14:01 cjl hola dirakx1
14:02 bernie dirakx1: hey
14:02 m_anish: no meeting today?
14:02 dirakx1 hi  cjl bernie ;)!.
14:02 m_anish bernie, hi!
14:02 dirakx1 next week edujam..yuppi.
14:03 bernie dirakx1: looking forward to meet you!
14:03 dirakx1 bernie: +1..I'll buy you a beer surely.
14:03 icarito has quit IRC
14:03 cjl dirakx1: be sure bug sebastian about glibc locales :-)
14:04 m_anish dirakx1, hola!
14:04 dirakx1 cjl: sure, i think he is the right person to lead that task atm.
14:04 m_anish: hola  hola.
14:04 cjl I've been in touch with GNU L10n team and they've offered help as well, but msotly you need a native-speaker
14:06 icarito <icarito!~icaro@190.126.78.88> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:06 dirakx1 icarito: hola.
14:07 m_anish + alsroot don't have a uy visa till now, fingers crossed :)
14:07 dirakx1 icarito: I'm talking with cjl about glibc locales for aymara and quechua.
14:08 m_anish: that's bad any ETA for VIsa ?.
14:08 m_anish bernie, +1 for meeting, anyone up for chairing this weeks meeting
14:08 icarito_web <icarito_web!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:08 cjl dirakx1: I've been making good progress on Gnash in lang-es, but I'll be asking the L10n list for a review before upstreaming it.
14:08 m_anish dirakx1, well there are two working days left Mon Tue to get a visa
14:09 cjl Ah, didn't recognize icarito's real-world ID. . .
14:09 bernie m_anish: i've got too much RSI today to type... so i'll just lurk
14:10 m_anish bernie, ok
14:10 dirakx1 m_anish: good luck then,,all this visa issues are really stupid imo.
14:10 these*
14:10 m_anish dirakx1, thanks!
14:10 cjl sits quietly in back of room to allow meeting to proceed
14:10 m_anish #startmeeting
14:10 meeting Meeting started Sat Apr 30 14:10:51 2011 UTC. The chair is m_anish. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:10 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:11 m_anish #topic status updates
14:11 dirakx1, you wanna do the honors? :)
14:11 icarito has quit IRC
14:12 dirakx1 m_anish: yep.
14:13 so my updates are mostly documented here.http://openetherpad.org/EL5g7TqHEI
14:13 I've been cleaning and fixing bugs for  my activities..and have various fixes not upstreamed yet.
14:14 now i have a narrowed down list of features asked to have on these activities.
14:14 now I'm the official maintainer of speak and maze. /me happy. joshua granted me permission.
14:14 m_anish dirakx1, great!
14:15 dirakx1 worked with gonzalo to have various patches to log..(avoiding spyware for example).
14:15 gonzalo has now access to some of wade's activities.
14:15 m_anish dirakx1, ah! the sending log thing
14:16 dirakx1 and I'll work with him to have new versions of those activities.
14:16 m_anish dirakx1, when are you arriving in uy?
14:16 dirakx1 m_anish: yep.
14:16 m_anish: 5 may late night.
14:16 approx 10pm
14:16 m_anish: I'm staying in the che lagarto hostal.
14:17 m_anish dirakx1, ok, and till when are you in uy?
14:17 dirakx1 m_anish: 11. but i depart early in the morning.
14:18 m_anish dirakx1, ok. all in all, it sounds like you're making very good progress on the activities front :-)
14:18 dirakx1 m_anish:yep.
14:18 ;)
14:18 m_anish: when will you be in UY (after visa is granted ?)
14:18 cjl raises hand
14:19 m_anish dirakx1, supposed to be there 4-16th
14:19 dirakx1 m_anish: ok.
14:19 m_anish cjl, yep :-)?
14:19 cjl I guess this is an AC meeting, but I wanted t ocomment that fi the Honey templates in Pootle aren't fixed, you'll not get good lang-es L10n
14:20 Honey lang-es has too few strings right now.
14:20 dirakx1 cjl: hmm sure, you are right. I have to check what's happening there.
14:21 cjl 6738 total words (instead fo the expected 7197)
14:21 Just wanted to point that out and thank dirakx1 for his work on Pootle
14:21 sits down again in back of room
14:21 dirakx1 cjl: to you. thanks.
14:22 m_anish: lastly I'm working on the browse cache issue..I was expected to have some feedback about that. on sugar-devel.
14:22 expecting.
14:23 bernie dirakx1: does the cache bloat even with normal usage?
14:23 dirakx1: i wouldn't expect that...
14:23 dirakx1 bernie: with normal usage it's o.k..problem seems to happen when trying to download big files.
14:24 bernie dirakx1: ah ok.. then it's as i thought.... mozilla can't download files directly to a different location
14:24 m_anish bernie, also, dirakx1, me tried to install f14's xulrunner into f11, too many missing deps :/
14:25 dirakx1 about xulrunner..yep it seems that it will have to wait to dx3 for an os update.
14:26 bernie: i was thinking in defining a cache policy in hulahop..as an approach to solve the issue.
14:26 bernie #link https://developer.mozilla.org/[…]nager_preferences
14:26 dirakx1 bernie: thanks.
14:28 bernie: I'll check  on that.
14:30 bernie dirakx1: there's an option called smart_size_cached_value... i can't find documentation for it, but if you google around it sounds like it may do what we wanted
14:30 dirakx1 bernie: ok, seems fine.
14:32 bernie: just a Q, this should be added to hulahop or xulrunner ?.
14:37 m_anish bernie, dirakx1, should we also test the activities in silbe's dx3 build
14:37 dirakx1 adds TODO.
14:39 m_anish dirakx1, icarito_web I can help test on a xo1.5 if needed. /me opened a few dx3 platform bugs this week
14:41 dirakx1 m_anish: I'm  more interested on xo-1 testing..I have a working xo.1.5, my xo-1 is broken.
14:41 :(.
14:42 m_anish dirakx1, apparently the dx3 build doesn't work on a xo1 yet
14:42 looks for bug report
14:44 dirakx1 oh ok
14:44 m_anish bugs.sl.o doesn't seem to be opening :/
14:44 dirakx1, there is a problem with the xo1-dx3 build, it tries to install the wrong firmware (xo1.5) afterwards
14:45 icarito_web dirakx1: this is a bug, we need some XOs
14:45 I'm using befana's xo-1 I borrowed too long ago
14:45 dirakx1: lets ask for some @ contributor's program
14:46 dirakx1 icarito_web: good idea...dunno if they have xo-1 in stock.
14:46 cjl dirakx1: ping an e-mail to Holt (or ask him in UY)
14:47 dirakx1 cjl: right.
14:47 m_anish: for now xo-1.5 activity testing should do.
14:48 icarito_web actually its not hard to follow contributor's program procedure
14:48 m_anish dirakx1, yep :)
14:48 bernie dirakx1: i think there's a .js file with the xulrunner preferences somewhere in the Browse activity
14:48 dirakx1: hulahop is just a wrapper around mozembed, i think
14:49 dirakx1 bernie: yep, it is part of hulahop../usr/share/hulahop/..pref.js iirc
14:49 bernie: at least that's what simon told me.
14:51 bernie: http://git.sugarlabs.org/hulah[…]/data/prefs.js.in
14:52 aiui, you can set it there for all laptops (if you package a new hulahop) or set a new pref in about:config setting individually  per each laptop.
14:53 but I guess is the same for xulrunner then..;(-
14:54 lucian_ <lucian_!~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:55 bernie dirakx1: you could experiment with about:config until you find the setting that fixes the bug, then change prefs.js in hulahop
14:56 dirakx1: we could carry a forked version of hulahop in dextrose if upstream isn't fast enough in applying the patch
14:56 lucian has quit IRC
14:56 dirakx1 bernie: o.k.
14:56 :)
14:56 lucian_ is now known as lucian
14:56 bernie m_anish: i'm replying to christoph's post about various journal problems
14:56 m_anish: the multiple selection thing is something we could really try to get done on during the sugar camp
14:57 m_anish: there's enough critical mass
14:57 m_anish bernie, +1, and ponder over some dx3 todo's
14:58 dirakx1 a journal improvement is a must.
14:58 lucian_ <lucian_!~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:59 dirakx1 some people in UY has been expressing some bad feedback about it, last week. (just commenting).
15:00 m_anish bernie, also, do you think we could work towards getting stuff upstreamed? need to check with silbe though.
15:00 dirakx1, http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/2803 is the ticket :)
15:00 lucian has quit IRC
15:00 dirakx1 m_anish: ok
15:01 bernie m_anish: i guess we could resend all our old patches in small batches.
15:01 m_anish #link http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/quer[…]one&keywords=~dx3
15:01 bernie m_anish: perhaps silbe is already doing it... i don't know
15:01 m_anish dirakx1, when opening dx3 activity bugs, pl give them dx3 keywords, so they are easy to track :)
15:02 bernie, yep,need to check with silbe.
15:03 dirakx1 m_anish: +1. I'll do that.
15:04 m_anish quick update from me: (1) me and tch have been getting together once a week for the past few weeks to figure out py specific priority issues. There are some new patches on the dx-ml that I have to commit to dx/mainline (reviews would be appreciated ;-) )
15:05 (2) tested the dx3 build and filed tickets
15:06 bernie guys, i have to drop off the meeting, sorry
15:06 m_anish that's mostly it, the rest is just internal discussions atm with pacita et al. that haven't taken shape yet
15:06 bernie leaves
15:06 m_anish bernie, np, chau!
15:06 dirakx1 bernie: ciao.
15:06 m_anish: great work..
15:06 m_anish lately, tch has become a hacking machine :)))
15:07 lucian_ is now known as lucian
15:07 dirakx1 he!. yep. he is unstoppable.
15:08 m_anish dirakx1, that's it from me, icarito_web any specific updates? :)
15:10 dirakx1, anything else on the agenda :) ?
15:11 dirakx1 m_anish: nop from my part, for now.
15:11 m_anish dirakx1, ok then :)
15:11 #endmeeting
15:11 meeting Meeting ended Sat Apr 30 15:11:37 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
15:11 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-30T14:10:51.html
15:11 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-04-30T14:10:51
15:11 dirakx1 thanks m_anish ;)
15:11 m_anish dirakx1, bernie icarito_web thanks!
15:12 silbe <silbe!~silbe@cl-425.cgn-01.de.sixxs.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:12 cjl dirakx1: see http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/2724 on Honey templates
15:13 silbe sorry to be late, had some trouble setting up the internet connection via POTS modem (33.6kbit/s :-/ )...
15:13 cjl dirakx1: I'd be happy to work with you to debug, but I'm guessing it is in some .ini file or something
15:14 silbe >Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-04-30T14:10:51
15:14 silbe cjl: thx, starting to read backlog.
15:14 dirakx1 cjl: this really had me thinking..because on the cronjob side and everything seems o.k, my thought is that there must be repo c onflicts for some activities.
15:15 hi silbe
15:15 cjl could be
15:15 dirakx1 cjl: I'll keep you posted then.
15:17 cjl dirakx1: great, BTW I use Yoruba Honey update from templates as a test case
15:18 silbe re. DX3 not working on XO-1, IIRC there's a typo in one of the XO-1 config files that tells it to install XO-1.5 stuff that I haven't fixed yet. Should be easy enough to fix.
15:20 BTW, if somebody could set up an F14 VM for building DX-3 on a Sugar Labs server (e.g. bender) that would be appreciated. With my new internet connection uploading images in the various formats would take ages.
15:22 bernie: isn't SL upstream for hulahop anyway? (re. shipping a forked hulahop version for a bug fix)
15:22 lucian has quit IRC
15:23 dirakx1 silbe: yes..but not for dextrose.
15:23 for AC. i mean.
15:23 cjl dirakx1: I'm going outside to enjoy a beautiful day by chainsawing up firewood for next winter, catch you later.
15:23 silbe bernie: No need to resend patches, I'm picking & porting them from DX2 - started to pick up my patch backlog a few days ago.
15:23 dirakx1 cjl: good luck..see you later.
15:23 cjl hope to have all fingers later on. . .
15:24 dirakx1 cjl:  be carefull!,
15:25 cjl dirakx1: por supuesto.
15:25 silbe dirakx1: IIRC the Fedora maintainer for hulahop is an SL member as well (Peter?), so once we have the fix and it's obviously correct (so it passes review), getting an updated package should only be a matter of poking a few people.
15:25 cjl has quit IRC
15:26 silbe just noticed he's 1h+15min late, not just 15min :-/
15:27 apparently adjusted for DST changes twice, sorry.
15:29 m_anish: thank for testing DX3 and filing all the tickets. You guys have been really productive.
15:29 m_anish: we should meet some time next week to discuss those tickets.
15:31 lucian <lucian!~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:33 tch <tch!~tch@190.23.96.66> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:34 silbe m_anish, tch: e.g. I'd hold off on connectivity related features for DX-3 and instead start defining a new architecture based on NetworkManager 0.9 for Sugar 0.94 (=> DX-4). We can borrow code from the old implementation where it makes sense, but the current code structure is a bit too ad-hoc and historically grown for my taste.
15:35 Or to put it differently: I tried to change the current code to support connecting sharing for ethernet based uplinks and failed.
15:38 tch silbe: based on NM 0.9 or 0.7/0.8?
15:38 silbe m_anish, tch: if we start working with upstream now, they might add support for automatic connection to Ad Hoc networks (something we currently do on the Sugar side) in time for DX-4. That would get rid of a nice chunk of code.
15:39 tch: based on 0.9 where there's no user settings anymore
15:39 tch silbe: oh, I seriously have to catch up with it
15:40 silbe that change is a good opportunity to re-think our design decisions instead of just "porting" our code over
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15:42 silbe right now, connections set up in Gnome and Sugar don't really mix. I can't configure something in Gnome that Sugar doesn't support (e.g. 802.1x authentication for WiFi) and use that connection within Sugar (even if it's a system connection).
15:43 tch silbe: that because the settings manager was part of nm-applet, and since we don't use it in sugar, they had to recreate the whole settings service
15:44 silbe: i know because it was painful to be able to store the 3G connections haha
15:44 silbe tch: it's more than that. Sugar provides a connection for all APs it sees and assumes those are the ones that get used.
15:45 tch: so if you already have a system connection for an AP, there will be two different connection for it, potentially even with the same name (though that part probably doesn't make a difference).
15:47 yama silbe: this sounds like something we've (OLPC AU) really wanted for some time
15:48 silbe it leads to weird effects like a second AP symbol appearing out of nowhere and using the user connection (provided by Sugar) instead of the system one that has all the authentication details.
15:48 yama does this mean that the plan is to have Sugar fully use NetworkManager directly for all networking?
15:49 that would save us a lot of duplicate work
15:50 tch Sugar already uses NM directly, is just the way we store the connections details that changed I assume (and probably the API)
15:51 yama and that's the problem
15:51 tch yup,
15:51 yama we have to deal with bssids, connecting in both sugar and gnome, etc
15:51 silbe yama: Sugar already does use NetworkManager - we'll need to do very similar things for NM 0.9 that we already do for NM 0.8. The difference is that in the future a) all connection settings are stored inside NM (that's the 0.8 -> 0.9 API change) and b) we need to stop assuming that Sugar is the only source of connections.
15:52 yama brilliant
15:52 silbe yama: In theory, we could do b) even with NM 0.8, but it looks easier to achieve for 0.9.
15:52 tch sounds a sane design ;)
15:53 s/a/like a
15:53 yama so once this is complete, can I assume that all connections will be handled in the same way in both sugar and gnome?
15:53 (sorry for annoying questions, just seeking clarity)
15:53 tch yama: they should be, if we want to handle network in sugar using NM
15:53 s/network/networking
15:54 yama and it will be set as a system connection?
15:54 so the OS can use it too?
15:54 silbe yama: more or less. You could use the same connections, but some configuration parameters would only be changeable using a non-Sugar NM client (e.g. Gnome) or a text editor.
15:54 tch yama: not sure about that, i haven't seen the details yet
15:54 yama we're currently doing this manually in our builds
15:55 silbe yama: NM 0.9 doesn't have a distinction between user and system settings anymore, just ACLs saying who can see and/or use a connection.
15:55 icarito_web has quit IRC
15:55 silbe given Sugars audience, we would grant access to all local users by default.
15:55 tch silbe: i am just happy they removed the settings control out side of nm-applet ;) lets see how much it takes us to adapt to it]
15:57 silbe tch: if we use the opportunity to change our design instead of just adapting to the new API, it should be easy enough (but still quite a bit of work, of course).
15:57 yama ok, so I'll reframe my question to be more user-centric: if I make a connection in Sugar, it will be fully usable by GNOME? It sounds like it will be.
15:57 tch silbe: it sounds good for a long term project :) But i think would have to live with the current stuff at least for a year
15:58 silbe yama: Yes, it would.
15:58 yama brilliant. This is crucial to our deployments
15:59 tch is a brilliant move from NM crew, painful for developers but necessary in the long term
15:59 yama at least one state in Australia uses BSSIDs on their WAPs (don't ask me why...)
16:00 so full NM support would assist
16:00 silbe tch: AFAICT DX-4 will be be based on a version of Fedora that ships NM 0.9+. "Porting" the current code to 0.9 is likely to be more work than redoing it and copying the code that still fits.
16:01 yama: not just in Australia it seems. Support for hidden SSIDs comes up regularly.
16:01 tch silbe: guess I need to look into the NM 0.9 documentation to give any opinion hehe
16:01 yama is there a bug report I can track about this?
16:02 I think I've found it: #1884
16:02 tch i wouldn't discard having the "connect to hidden .." feature for dx3 though..  ;)
16:03 we could already tackle the GUI details at least
16:03 yama I was thinking as a hack to write an activity that just launched the nm-connection-editor
16:03 but a real sugar gui is needed
16:04 tch +`
16:04 +1 //sorry new keyboard haha
16:04 brb, reboot needed
16:04 tch has left #sugar-meeting
16:04 silbe tch: one thing we'll need to be careful about with the new design (both code and UI) is the distinction between APs / GSM modems / ethernet ports and connections. Right now Sugar assumes a 1:1 mapping. That doesn't hold for not-too-uncommon cases like hidden SSIDs or uplink via ethernet vs. ad-hoc networking via ethernet.
16:06 tch: Hidden SSID support is a whole can of worms. If it turns out we can ship a small enough patch for DX-3, I'd be in favour. But there's a good chance the patch size would be in vicinity of the size of the existing code...
16:11 tch <tch!~tch@190.23.96.66> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:11 tch back
16:13 yama We have to deal with some weird network setups. One requires support for DHCP option 119 for DNS to work properly (http://dev.laptop.org.au/issues/350). The alternative is messy (http://dev.laptop.org.au/issues/550). Summary is that letting NM manage the connections will make this all easier to handle.
16:25 dogi <dogi!~nemo@c-65-96-166-32.hsd1.ma.comcast.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:33 tch yama: so, it is possible to connect to these network from gnome, right?
16:33 silbe we need to go now. I'll be back tomorrow in time for the Design Team meeting, maybe earlier. Have fun everyone!
16:34 tch silbe: see ya! take care
16:34 yama tch: I just hacked up http://dev.laptop.org.au/attac[…]orkConnections.xo
16:34 bye silbe
16:34 silbe tch: thx, you too
16:34 yama tch: yes, we can connect from gnome
16:35 silbe yama: bye
16:35 silbe has quit IRC
16:36 yama for these more difficult networks, our solution right now is to configure a connection through nm-connection-editor and tick "Available to all users" (i.e. make it a system setting)
16:37 it's annoying to have to switch to GNOME just to configure the network
16:37 so http://dev.laptop.org.au/issues/434 exists :)
16:37 tch yama: that is a nice hack btw,
16:38 yama haha I really can't claim much credit. I just hacked http://wiki.laptop.org/go/ExecCommand
16:38 only took a minute
16:44 tch yama: is there any other difficulties that you guys are facing? (on the networking field)
16:45 yama: is the hidden networks are your main headache ?
16:46 s/is/are
16:47 yama I think the NM 0.9 stuff will be of great use to us because of BSSIDs and DHCP option 119.
16:48 the most annoying problem is getting the network settings onto all the XOs in the first place
16:48 i.e. teacher receives XOs, then has to enter network settings into each one
16:49 more specifically, the most annoying subset of that problem is configuring network proxies
16:49 schools here don't use transparent proxies
16:49 and some have authenticated proxies
16:49 the proxy address can be different per school
16:50 and if each child has their own password, that will be unique per XO
16:50 just trying to dig up some info
16:50 tch sounds really painful,
16:51 yama indeed :(
16:52 take a look at this: http://dev.laptop.org.au/issues/337
16:52 tch but, regardless of which version of NM we use (and how we store the connection settings) we would still need to think about how to extend the sugar GUI work with these cases
16:52 yama yes, there are GUI considerations
16:52 tch do you guys have any design on your wishlist?
16:53 yama haven't had a chance to think about GUIs
16:54 in relation to the link I just posted, the proxy must be defined in a few different places for the system to properly get online
16:54 gnome and browse use gconf
16:54 but sugar uses the http_proxy env variable
16:56 we've implemeted a hack in our builds to populate http_proxy when the proxy is set/changed in gnome
16:57 the best we can do is tell users to set their proxy in gnome
16:57 and the were setting it, which made Browse and all of GNOME work
16:57 but the rest of sugar (software update, etc.) would not
16:57 tch yeah, just saw the comments, apparently you have a patch to solve that too
16:57 yama yes
16:58 but I think the best way forwards is for Sugar to get proxy settings from gconf rather than http_proxy
16:59 http://dev.laptop.org.au/issues/429
17:04 tch i don't fully understand the details, but I suspect that there is a lot of things that nm-applet handle and sugar network model doesn't...
17:04 yama the proxy thing is not related to nm
17:05 the problem is that Sugar doesn't use the same proxy config as GNOME
17:08 I just created an SL report for it: http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/2821
17:08 tch great :)
17:10 yama that's an important one for us to fix
17:11 I think in the meanwhile I'll make an activity that launches gnome-network-properties
17:12 which, combined with our hack, will mean that the settings put in there will set http_proxy for sugar to use
17:13 tch yama: yup, and there is a strong design factor to get it included in sugar... the sooner we start that discussion the better..
17:13 yama: i mean, handling all these settings (from the GUI)
17:14 yama yes agreed
17:15 tch the backend can change or be rewritten later, but the strong discussion is on GUI level..
17:16 i have to for now, thanks for the feedback :)
17:16 nice hacks again (to you and jerry) ;)
17:17 s/to for/to go for/ //lol
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