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#sugar-meeting, 2011-04-17

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14:53 walterbender hi gary
14:53 garycmartin walterbender: hi
14:54 any one else about for a design meeting?
14:54 walterbender haven't seen anyone
14:58 garycmartin: the toolbar catalog is in good shape... nice to be able to get an overview
14:58 garycmartin walterbender: yea, up to 39 activities there, some more scary than others.
14:59 icarito_web <icarito_web!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:00 walterbender garycmartin: some are pretty intense, yes
15:00 garycmartin walterbender: is it worth having a meeting today with just us two - could postpone and try again next week?
15:00 walterbender garycmartin: but I am more concerned about consistency
15:01 icarito_web hi
15:01 walterbender garycmartin: next week works for me.
15:01 garycmartin icarito_web: Hi
15:01 satellit_ lurking
15:01 walterbender garycmartin: maybe between now and they we can collect notes on the talk page of the wiki about suggestions for improvements to the toolbars
15:02 icarito_web i'd appreciate if we could maybe discuss a bit the About Dialog
15:02 garycmartin walterbender: consistency, yes absolutely, particularly important as we have very visual designs.
15:03 walterbender icarito_web: I had a question: is it a modal dialog?
15:03 garycmartin icarito_web: yes I've been following the thread.
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15:09 garycmartin walterbender: FWIW I've not had any indication from Christian to say he'd be here today, so perhaps skip todays meeting (as we've lost icarito now as well)
15:09 walterbender +1
15:09 next week...
15:09 same time
15:09 same channel
15:10 garycmartin +1 Sounds good :-)
15:10 walterbender garycmartin: anything need doing between now and then?
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15:10 icarito_web hi i'm sorry
15:10 garycmartin walterbender: I'll scrape together some more toolbars for the wiki.
15:10 icarito_web my connection failed on me just now
15:11 garycmartin icarito_web: Yes we saw you drop off.
15:11 walterbender icarito_web: I was just asking, is the dialog modal?
15:12 icarito_web ummm it doesnt block changing activities or views
15:12 actually
15:12 looking at the code, it is
15:12        self.set_modal(True)
15:12 garycmartin icarito_web: I'm not sure there are enough of us here to have a proper discussion, but my objection would be that the view source option covers all of this and more in the existing user interface. No new code, activity changes, or UI extras needed.
15:13 icarito_web garycmartin: my view is that there is no affordance for looking at this info
15:13 garycmartin: one could say terminal activity also covers this
15:14 :-)
15:14 garycmartin icarito_web: Though we could formally agree on what text files authors should be adding and keeping up to date, there seems so many, I gave up looking at them and updating mine ages ago.
15:14 icarito_web garycmartin: but i'd agree to integrating it to view source
15:14 silbe sorry to be late
15:14 garycmartin silbe: Hi!
15:15 silbe Is walterbender still with us?
15:15 garycmartin We were just about to skip the meeting until next week.
15:15 walterbender icarito_web: my preference would be to add these data to the detail view, on the lower right, where we already have some details such as mime type. Just say no to modal.
15:15 icarito_web garycmartin: the subject is not functionality but user experience
15:16 walterbender: but the detail view for .xo bundles ? or for each entry ?
15:17 walterbender: my position is that entries in the journal don't represent the abstract activity
15:17 garycmartin: precisely the point of the dialog is giving incentive to keeping these files up to date
15:19 garycmartin: also about view source, it is only accesible ("discoverable") in the frame - I think it shuold be accessible within the activity
15:19 silbe icarito_web: how about showing these data (this data?) in the Source View and adding a toolbar icon for invoking the Source View (in addition to the keyboard shortcut and the Frame menu)?
15:19 icarito_web silbe: +1 for that
15:20 silbe icarito_web: like your About icon, it could live in the Activities palette
15:20 icarito_web silbe: yes i'd love that
15:21 walterbender: view source already is modal
15:21 silbe garycmartin, walterbender: what do you think? Would extending the Source View to include metadata like maintainer contact details and exposing it in the Activities palette be worth a shot?
15:22 (we can discuss these two separately)
15:22 icarito_web garycmartin: btw this is my first design meeting, sundays are difficult for me but i'd love to be a part of this team :-)
15:23 garycmartin icarito_web: I'm afraid it's a poor start today, as we were about to wrap it up until next week we didn't even #start-meeting :-(
15:24 so no meeting logs.
15:25 icarito_web garycmartin: so if you'd prefer I can sum up the proposal in a design wiki page and add it to the topic list for next meeting
15:26 i dont know what the prefered way to document and propose is
15:26 silbe garycmartin: actually this channel is always logged - so there'll be logs, just no nicely formatted minutes.
15:26 garycmartin silbe: Hmmm, I'm not sold, perhaps I'm not big enough into OS to understand the importance. Or maybe I'm too used to using view source when I need.
15:28 icarito_web: design wiki page for it sounds like a good idea.
15:28 walterbender silbe, icarito_web: the fact that view source is modal is a bug... ideally, view source would be some sort of Pippy-like experience. Will it is fine to add the about stuff to view source, in fact, ti will happen automagically by dropping an ABOUT or README in the bundle, it is not the logn-term solution.
15:28 icarito_web garycmartin: view source is a bit intimidating
15:29 silbe garycmartin: making the metadata available - both outside and inside Sugar - helps a lot when fixing bugs in "random" activities. Whether View Source is discoverable enough is a different issue and one I can't really judge.
15:29 walterbender but it may be the best short-term way of getting started, requiring no coding
15:30 icarito_web walterbender: +1
15:31 silbe walterbender: Having View Source show both the data (source) and the metadata (maintainer name, bug tracker URL, etc.) would seem a natural fit to me. How to make it non-modal is a separate issue IMO (it's already necessary).
15:31 icarito_web walterbender: i'd love it if we had a nice sugar IDE
15:31 not that we don't have several but for activities we're lacking
15:31 garycmartin icarito_web: it's called vi ;-)
15:32 icarito_web garycmartin: /me loves vim :-)
15:32 silbe walterbender: and if we agree on a certain set of files in a well-specified format, one could even argue that it is all source.
15:32 icarito_web now that's what I call an uncluttered interface
15:32 garycmartin silbe: icarito_web: I'm also concerned about major UI changes that require retrofitting to all activities, unless there is a very strong reason.
15:33 silbe garycmartin: vi sounds like a nice adventure game for aspiring hackers ;)
15:34 garycmartin silbe: icarito_web so what is the set of files you'd like maintained?
15:35 silbe garycmartin: please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think View Source has a "default" implementation that can, but doesn't have to be overridden by activities. So for most activities, we'd only need to add the View Source icon - and that isn't urgent since the user can already trigger it via both a keyboard shortcut and the Frame.
15:35 icarito_web garycmartin: putting (view source / about) inside the activity pallette would be nice and I'd be willing to put up the retrofitting work
15:35 garycmartin COPYING seems to have to be there for legal reasons, AUTHORS seems common, but almost always out of date and not inclusive of all involved.
15:36 icarito_web garycmartin: I'd like there to be a generic description of waht the activity is supposed to do
15:36 garycmartin: this isnt documented in the bundle, I put it in an extra file called ABOUT
15:36 garycmartin icarito_web: in what language?
15:37 icarito_web but I'd suggest at least to mantain MANTAINERS
15:37 and suggest also COPYING/LICENSE
15:37 garycmartin icarito_web: how does MAINTAINERS differ from AUTHORS?
15:37 icarito_web garycmartin: good point - would it be preferable to be a string within the code so we can i18n with pootle?
15:38 silbe garycmartin: I don't think it's worth maintaining AUTHORS in general. git usually does a much better job at keeping track of contributors. The names of the current maintainers (i.e. where to send patches) is more useful.
15:38 icarito_web garycmartin: it doesnt really it could be either one
15:38 currently my code looks for both
15:40 silbe if we can agree on files with just the data (the name of the maintainer, bug tracker URLs, etc.) in it, we only need to provide translation once, in sugar-toolkit.
15:40 walterbender icarito_web: maybe an extention of setup.py that will pull authors/maintainers from git
15:40 silbe icarito_web: as cjl pointed out, you could translate text files with some tools (po2txt IIRC) if we want to go that route.
15:41 garycmartin silbe: what if there are several maintainers, or none?
15:41 icarito_web would be a bit concerned about cluttering the bundle with tons of README.es README.de README.qu ....
15:41 silbe garycmartin: it could be a list of URIs, using mailto: for email addresses
15:41 garycmartin also converned.
15:42 icarito_web walterbender: +1 i'm all for automation - if we keep this metadata in a standard location ASLO and such can grab it
15:43 ok so if you agree i'll sum up the discussion in an email to sugar-devel and create a design wiki page
15:43 garycmartin silbe: what I don't understand is that if I want to make a patch and try to get it accepted, I need to have cloned a current git rep of that code, so I already know all this information.
15:43 walterbender icarito_web: agreed. if the data can get stale, it will get stale.. mining is the way to go
15:44 icarito_web walterbender: yes!
15:44 no sense in keeping same data in multiple places,  data about the activity goes in the bundle naturally
15:44 all the best if one can mantain it with vi
15:45 silbe good point about setup.py - at least for Python based activities there's already a standard format. It would be slightly non-trivial for us to use (because setup.py needs to be invoked, so we'd need to run it via Rainbow), but it's worth looking at what metadata they provide. We could also enhance bundlebuilder to create our to-be-agreed-on metadata files from the setup.py metadata.
15:45 icarito_web or yet-to-exist design-and-create-activity
15:45 silbe garycmartin: the URL of the git repo is another piece of metadata that we need to provide.
15:46 icarito_web silbe: +1
15:46 silbe garycmartin: and the git repo URL doesn't tell you who the maintainer is. Even gitorious doesn't tell you that - e.g. for several Sugar repos tomeu is still listed as owner.
15:46 garycmartin silbe: wasn't there a proposal to have that as a line in the MANIFEST?
15:47 silbe garycmartin: The only proposal concerning MANIFEST that I know of is to get rid of it.
15:47 garycmartin silbe: lol
15:47 silbe (Dextrose already did)
15:47 icarito_web friends i'm sorry I have to go now, but I will do as I said email s-d and write wiki page
15:47 garycmartin silbe: sorry I meant activity/activity.info
15:47 icarito_web i'll be at the next meeting
15:47 thanks for your time and attention
15:48 garycmartin icarito_web: Thanks for joining us!
15:48 icarito_web thank you all
15:48 silbe garycmartin: that would be a good place for the metadata to live, in the bare format I mentioned above.
15:48 garycmartin: a further advantage (of using activity.info) would be that it's a .desktop format file, so translation is already "built in".
15:48 icarito_web: have a nice day!
15:51 garycmartin Shall we call it quits today and try for a more regular meeting same time next week?
15:52 silbe garycmartin: sounds good, but can we do a summary and / or some action assignments first?
15:52 garycmartin silbe: I'm not quite sure what we've agreed on ;-)
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15:53 silbe do we all agree that exposing more information about how to interact with "upstream" of an activity would be useful?
15:54 garycmartin silbe: exposing and/or providing?
15:54 need the information (reliably and sustainably) first.
15:54 silbe garycmartin: me neither, that's the point - I'd like to know what we agree and disagree on, so we can prepare appropriately for the next meeting.
15:55 garycmartin: providing would have been a better word for this question. Exposing via UI would be the next question.
15:56 garycmartin silbe: can we provide the wanted information from other sources in an automated way? I'm not so sure.
15:58 silbe garycmartin: what other sources do you think of? They should all be offline accessible ("under the tree" scenario).
16:00 cloned git repositories are fully self-contained (and can be cloned again), so they'd at least partially fulfill that requirement
16:00 garycmartin silbe: a link to the upstream rep in activity.info seems the only reliable information. But that's not exactly an "under the tree" scenario.
16:02 silbe garycmartin: ok, so can we agree on adding the git repo URL to activity.info?
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16:03 silbe garycmartin: or would you prefer to think about it some more until the next meeting?
16:07 garycmartin silbe: I think I need more time on this. The OS workflow side is not something that I'm very aware of or involved in, so in adding/exposing related data I don't really understand the end goal, the "why are we doing this?"
16:10 silbe garycmartin: ok, no problem. One reason for doing this is that there's no (other) single place you can get this information - at lot of activities are not hosted on Sugar Labs infrastructure.
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16:12 satellit_ coordinate with http://wiki.laptop.org/index.p[…]tegory:Activities  do we use them?
16:12 garycmartin silbe: sorry fell off line
16:12 silbe 18:10 < silbe> garycmartin: ok, no problem. One reason for doing this is that there's no (other) single place  you can get this information - at lot of activities are not hosted on Sugar Labs infrastructure.
16:12 garycmartin silbe: I'd tentatively agree that adding git repo URL to activity.info is indeed a useful thing.
16:13 satellit_ http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Acti[…]ies/OLPCAU/10.1.3  how coordinate these?
16:15 silbe garycmartin: ok, that's a first step. Let's leave it at that for now and focus on _why_ we need that data for the next meeting.
16:16 there's not much chance of agreeing on details as long as you're not convinced it's a good idea in general
16:20 garycmartin silbe: My use case was... If I'm sitting somewhere with a fresh XO/Sugar wanting to patch/contribute to an activity, what would be useful way to start. 1) yum install vim, 2) yum install git, 3) cat activity.info 4) git clone <the URL I find there>. My workflow kinda stalls there as submitting the changes upstream is going to take quite some effort/knowledge, but at least it get's me to tinkering.
16:22 silbe: obviously as a kid I'd do none of the above, I'd just start hacking on the python source, and end up with some sort of mutated code with no history.
16:23 which is what I did as a 10yr old kid, but with BASIC.
16:23 silbe garycmartin: another use case is reporting bugs you've discovered while running the activity. You don't need to have upstream foo for that (though it helps :) ), but you need to know where to file the ticket or send the mail. The latter can even happen offline (and be transmitted when there's an internet connection again or via Sneakernet or ...).
16:23 satellit_ http://www.archive.org/details[…]wnSugarActivities  floss manuals link? or something like it on XO?
16:24 silbe garycmartin: the "no history" part is something we need to (and can!) fix once we have a data store with version support. It wouldn't be a git repository, but at least have a history.
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16:26 garycmartin silbe: how does fedora/debian provide this information, is it part of their packages/bundles or do you need to interrogate their servers?
16:29 silbe garycmartin: There are two answers: a) At least Debian provides the upstream homepage and for some packages the VCS repository of the package source (not the upstream source). b) you're expected to file all bugs at their bug tracker and optionally at the upstream bug tracker as well (=> single location).
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16:30 garycmartin silbe: OK, so this is an area Sugar could improve on.
16:31 silbe garycmartin: the majority of activities isn't part of any distribution, so you can't just file all your bugs at Debian or Dextrose.
16:34 and while I wouldn't mind most authors to use the Sugar Labs infrastructure (though we'd need to scale several of our services first, e.g. Trac), I want the authors to have a _choice_ of using different infrastructure - maybe even just email. I don't want to force someone in, say, South Africa, to use the central Sugar Labs servers in the USA.
16:35 garycmartin: distributed development and choice are important aspects of Open Source.
16:36 garycmartin satellit_afk: FWIW the first two links are out of date and (as far as I'm aware) unmaintained. http://activities.sugarlabs.org (ASLO) is the place to go hunting for activities and information about them (many but not all have links to other related resources). As for the floss manual, perhaps we should make a nice Activity wrapper for it and provide it as an Activity on ASLO (and keep it updated).
16:43 silbe garycmartin: thanks for the chat (sorry for taking you so long) & have a nice evening!
16:43 garycmartin silbe: Thanks, you to!
16:43 silbe thanks!
16:44 garycmartin silbe: do you know where the 'other' logs are?
16:44 silbe garycmartin: same server - let me get you the link.
16:45 garycmartin: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]1-04-17#i_2658914
16:46 garycmartin silbe: Fab, thanks, I'll put the link on the design meeting wiki.
16:46 silbe garycmartin: thanks!
16:47 garycmartin silbe: ...and you've just reminded me and pointed me to an interesting source of data to put through my SOMs! ;-)
16:47 silbe garycmartin: thanks for chairing the Design Team meetings, BTW - got some load off me.
16:49 garycmartin: that would indeed be an interesting map - I read sugar-devel and iaep anyway, but can't (and wouldn't want to) be on IRC 24/7 - so a "hot topics of the week" image would be nice.
16:52 garycmartin silbe: re chairing the Design Team meetings, no problem – hopefully we make some real progress from time to time, before cscott replaces us all with androids of some flavour ;-)
16:53 silbe garycmartin: I wouldn't worry too much about cscott - he might hint at some interesting future directions, but in the meantime we have over a million kids running Sugar to take care of.
16:54 garycmartin silbe: +1 on the one mega kids needing support.
16:55 cjb it's okay, androids aren't very good at design anyway, they need help from humans :)
16:56 garycmartin cjb: :-)
16:56 silbe garycmartin: in the future, Sugar will shift from being an implementation to be more of an idea / a set of goals (HIG!). But there are a lot of small steps on that way. Better interaction with Gnome (both running locally and on other systems) is the closest step on that path.
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16:57 silbe cjb: IIRC Data (Star Trek) designed his own daughter. So not sure about who's better at design. ;)
16:57 cjb yeah. but did she look *cool*?
16:59 garycmartin silbe: One thing that worries me is that a fair chunk of the design is based around current implementation needs.
17:00 silbe garycmartin: that's normal and can be fixed. It's what we have the Design Team for. Think of it as an initial mock-up, a teaser.
17:01 garycmartin silbe: That reminds me, I have the old HIG snapshot still to upload. I think I'm about done with it now.
17:01 silbe garycmartin: icarito had an idea and, being a hacker, expressed it as code instead of an essay or a mock-up image. (at least that's my interpretation)
17:02 garycmartin: great!
17:02 garycmartin silbe: There were quite a few odds and ends that are not on the wiki version correctly...
17:02 silbe garycmartin: now we just need annotation support in Read, like Okular has
17:03 garycmartin: what kind of odds?
17:03 garycmartin by "correctly" I mean a missing section or two, and quite a few image examples.
17:04 silbe garycmartin: oh. Where did you find the missing sections? OLPC wiki? Or is there another source?
17:04 garycmartin silbe: the "missing" content is on the wiki, just not correctly included in the wiki template (I think, it's quite a nested set-up)
17:06 silbe: OLPC had the missing section in ok (it's the section on activity toolbars), but didn't show the image examples (you seem to have to drill down to the individual original page for some of the content, so probably again a template nesting mishap).
17:06 silbe garycmartin: ah, ok. Maybe FGrose would be interested in helping to fix it? He's our wiki guru.
17:08 s/interested in/willing/ - or some other way of indicating that we should ask him politely whether he'd help us do it.
17:11 garycmartin silbe: I'll get the static HIG uploaded first (pdf), and mention the wiki issues as part of an email to sugar-devel. The missing section I'm sure I can fix, but the non included images seems like a wiki bug. May need to just rethink how the images are included to avoid.
17:14 silbe garycmartin: sounds like a plan.
17:16 garycmartin silbe: Example, look at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/H[…]nterface/Controls and then try http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/H[…]election_Controls
17:17 silbe: note all the missing images that should be on the left hand side.
17:19 silbe garycmartin: interesting, only some ("detailed control specifications") are missing.
17:20 garycmartin silbe: yep, but there a lot's of those ;-)
17:21 silbe: It's like you can't have a floating image thumb in a table that get included. Or something.
17:21 silbe garycmartin: but it's systematic, so like you said it looks like a template bug
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