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#sugar-meeting, 2011-03-26

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12:48 bernie silbe, m_anish_`, dfarning_afk: meeting today?
12:52 silbe bernie: I don't know any reason why we shouldn't meet
12:54 bernie silbe: too few people? :-)
12:54 icarito <icarito!~icaro@> has joined #sugar-meeting
12:55 silbe bernie: it's another hour till the meeting, so some of us might just not be online yet
12:56 bernie silbe: ah... damn... i did not consider the daylight saving
12:56 -> back to sleep
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13:01 silbe g'night ;)
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14:04 m_anish_` is now known as m_anish
14:04 m_anish bernie, i'm here
14:05 silbe too
14:05 m_anish silbe, hola!
14:05 silbe moin moin :)
14:07 m_anish anyone else arnd? :)
14:08 bernie m_anish: hey!
14:08 ok... who shall chair?
14:08 silbe: ping
14:08 m_anish bernie, silbe, i've uploaded the build to sunjammer. I'm taking nice screenshots and updating the wiki
14:09 bernie, you?
14:09 silbe m_anish: the DX2 build?
14:09 m_anish silbe, yah
14:09 bernie m_anish: did you restart the version numbering of DX2 from 0? i guess it's too late to change it now, but some users said that they were confused by the OS numbers restarting every time
14:10 m_anish bernie, yah, its os85dx
14:10 silbe nice. were there any changes to the dextrose repo in this week?
14:10 m_anish it'll take me an age to upload a new build :/
14:10 silbe, nope, other than olpc-bootanim (tch)
14:11 bernie m_anish: pls upload all files generated by o-o-b... not just the img + crc. that's another request i got some time ago.
14:11 silbe m_anish: ok, good.
14:11 dirakx <dirakx!rafael@> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:11 m_anish bernie, there's a tree file, about ~300mb, need that as well?
14:11 silbe m_anish: +1 to tree file. That's what I use for testing.
14:11 dirakx Hi all. ;).
14:12 silbe dirakx: hi!
14:12 m_anish silbe, ok
14:13 bernie m_anish: are you also uploading the matching xo1.5 images?
14:13 m_anish bernie, yah, just managed to build it, not upload, will do that
14:14 bernie m_anish: it will take you a while at paraguayan network speeds :-)
14:14 m_anish bernie, internet has been very sucky lately, and 3G takes ages to upload, and office is just to slow
14:14 i'll do it overnight
14:14 bernie m_anish: i *think* the 3G modems have a monthly transfer limit, after which they become super slow
14:14 s/modems/contracts/
14:15 m_anish until a few days ago, robbie was overloaded, uptime was ~15, then they restarted it, and i was able to make the build
14:15 anyway, startmeeting, ?
14:15 bernie m_anish: ah yeah
14:15 m_anish: wanna chair?
14:15 m_anish ok
14:15 #startmeeting
14:15 meeting Meeting started Sat Mar 26 14:15:55 2011 UTC. The chair is m_anish. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:15 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:16 m_anish #topic status updates
14:16 silbe, you wanna start :)?
14:17 silbe m_anish: not much to mention. Did some reviews upstream and worked a bit on the DX3 image, but more work than result. :-/
14:18 bernie m_anish: not much from me as well... lasered my eye and worked for rms
14:18 dirakx ;)
14:18 bernie dirakx: ah, didn't notice you!
14:18 m_anish bernie, ok, both eyes functional?
14:18 silbe, ok
14:19 dirakx for me. various activities new releases and pootle documentation now complete Service/translate in wiki.
14:19 bernie: ;)
14:19 bernie m_anish: (side note) after we have all the images uploaded and mildly tested, we can proceed  update the wiki to move the dx1 info to its own subpages and put the dx2 releases on the main page!
14:19 m_anish silbe, i'd probably be free to start working on dx3 by apr 1
14:19 silbe I added a serial console to my XO-1.5 again to diagnose random crashes (probably suspend/resume related), but did it incorrectly (a few millimetres off so the adapter wouldn't fit) so I have to rework it. :-/
14:19 bernie m_anish: my vision in the operated eye is still blurry... it's expected to improve by next week
14:20 silbe m_anish: great!
14:20 m_anish silbe, ok
14:20 bernie dirakx: thanks!
14:20 m_anish dirakx, can you update on ur + icarito's progress w/ activities?
14:21 dirakx m_anish: icarito has been working on a) new toolbars for various activitires...and b)A new activity for Peru..
14:22 silbe BTW: Simon has done some work w.r.t. Telepathy bugs, but AFAICT the major ones that cause Traceback spam in the logs haven't been fixed yet.
14:22 dirakx oh he is not around to tell us more.
14:24 m_anish dirakx, ok, what's the major items on your todo list for the next week or so?
14:25 dirakx m_anish: next week I have to ''order'' and review  all core strings for pootle on sugar...and working on the high/medium priority list of activities.
14:25 m_anish: Icarito has to work on those also.
14:25 acording to  our work distribution.
14:26 m_anish: just to notice that .PY people can change that list according to situation..
14:26 m_anish dirakx, great. do you have a very rough plan atm of what we'd be able to do within the next 2-3 months activity wise, and whether you'd need more ppl to test?
14:27 bernie dirakx: is pootle behaving well?
14:27 m_anish dirakx, yep, i wasn't really able to discuss it with them much and I don't wanna just fwd it, otw they won't look at it
14:27 dirakx bernie: Still has some issues..:(, it's not updating POTs well.
14:28 m_anish: tsting has to centered in those activities..I mean the activities that .PY use.
14:28 bernie: I'm consulting with Saya the cause of that.
14:29 bernie dirakx: what version are we running now?
14:29 dirakx m_anish: patched 2.0.1/2.0.5
14:29 bernie dirakx: ok. does it solve erikos' bug?
14:29 dirakx oh bernie
14:30 bernie: nop. we found that is a xgettext bug btw.
14:30 silbe: help in debug.
14:30 bernie dirakx: ah, so not in pootle?
14:31 dirakx bernie: afaik nop.
14:32 bernie m_anish: is the microformat updater working from aslo?
14:32 tch <tch!~tch@> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:32 m_anish bernie, been working for a while now
14:32 dirakx pootle was very broken but we are getting there to fix it.
14:33 silbe dirakx: ?
14:33 tch hello guys :)
14:33 silbe tch: hey!
14:33 dirakx silbe: we were talking about record's xgettext bug..
14:33 tch: hello :)
14:33 m_anish tch, late :P
14:34 tch current topic? :)
14:34 m_anish (status updates)
14:34 silbe dirakx: that reminds me: have you forwarded your report to the maintainer? there was some reply indicating that he might not have gotten a copy.
14:35 dirakx silbe: gosh not yet..I'll forward it.
14:35 silbe dirakx: thx
14:35 bernie tch: hola
14:36 m_anish: ugh, i just figured out that we had indeed already released some early dx2 alphas and the latest one was labeled os439dx...
14:37 m_anish bernie, yah :/
14:37 bernie m_anish: if now we go back to os85dx, people will be super confused
14:37 silbe does anyone (except buildbot) still use the "subuntu" VM on treehouse? I'm having a rather hard time getting it to boot :-/
14:37 m_anish if its imp, i'll change it to os500 or something :-)
14:37 bernie m_anish: sure, why not... but you'd have to reupload the whole thing :-(
14:38 m_anish: maybe you could build on the dextrose vm? we still have it
14:38 m_anish bernie, i'm dreading that already
14:38 bernie, we do? i only checked that sunjammer is ubuntu and jita is f14
14:39 tch m_anish: I could reupload it from home, faster than the pyedu office at least
14:40 bernie m_anish: i'll give you an account in no time
14:40 m_anish tch, i'll try to build from here, but i might have to be present at the office to get it to work, the h/w infrastructure has been a lot slower/flakey lately
14:41 bernie, sounds good
14:41 tch yeah, I think car|os is still tweaking the VM setup
14:42 m_anish tch, time for our status updates. ;) you wanna do the honors?
14:43 tch sure
14:43 no meeting bot?
14:44 m_anish tch, its whirring, go ahead
14:47 tch Ok. Well, basically this week we been struggling with the infrastructure problems trying to get the international build and extending the dx services.
14:47 bernie m_anish: ssh anish@dextrose.sugarlabs.org
14:48 tch Anish tried all weekend to get these builds done, while finishing the update services we need for the offline schools
14:48 bernie m_anish: jita should also work to build dx2 images... i've been building them on my laptop which is f14 x86_64
14:48 m_anish bernie, works, thanks
14:49 bernie tch: you can also have an account on dextrose.sugarlabs.org, or jita.sugarlabs.org... whichever you prefer :)
14:49 tch and myself I simply extended the feedback server to be able to send the reports to a mailing list, so we can follow the reports
14:49 bernie ah, no... building requires root... so better doing it on a machine that doesn't also run production services
14:49 tch: nice
14:50 tch it wll be useful to to keep track of the feedback reports :)
14:51 Guess the next step should be creating tickets automatically haha (??)
14:51 the important thing is that we already have a way to access these reports.
14:52 m_anish tch, great work. I'm workin on the rpms.
14:52 bernie tch: are there many reports?
14:52 dirakx tch: are these possible to see from outside ?. just to check if there are some activity wise.
14:52 bernie m_anish: SMParrish and I have already been building images on dextrose.sugarlabs.org in the past... should be straightforward
14:53 m_anish bernie, ok
14:53 tch well, do the maths, dx2 50 testers and we have like 5-6  (??) reports, is not bad
14:53 bernie m_anish: i just gave you root access, btw
14:53 m_anish bernie, ok
14:54 tch dirakx: is a private mailing list, but we could forward reports with paraguay educa permission
14:54 dirakx would be grreat.
14:54 great*
14:55 if possible.
14:56 bernie tch, m_anish: can someone subscribe me pls?
14:56 tch m_anish: anything else I am missing?
14:56 m_anish bernie, dirakx ACK
14:56 tch, standby
14:56 dirakx m_anish: thx
14:57 tch bernie: yeah we can, just need to ask roberto or pacita for permission. Thats actualy the idea behind the ML ;);) so we can discuss the issues there
14:58 m_anish: ^
14:58 m_anish tch, nope, Its good, the todo's I have (still) are (1) browse homepage change via update, (2) builds (3) making a small doc/wiki abt the features on dx-2
14:58 tch, +1
15:00 ok, what else do we need to discuss?
15:00 tch visa details?
15:00 haha
15:01 m_anish #topic visa
15:01 bernie tch: k
15:01 m_anish tch, can we call pflores or somebody up in uy re: the invitations
15:01 tch yup, we will need one for m_anish and aleksey probably
15:02 bernie ah, guys... i still have no funding for the plane ticket...
15:03 i'm not sure i want to spend >$1200 from my pocket to attend a conference, even if I'm *VERY* interested...
15:03 m_anish bernie, i learnt in the last few weeks that its cheaper to fly from US-Ind than it is for US-Py, i had intentions of coming to US :/
15:03 dirakx :(. I also want to go..but economics are not o.k yet.
15:04 m_anish anyway, we're done for the meeting?
15:04 tch can't you ask the fsf for sponsorship, so you can give a talk about free software in education? which is the HOT TOPIC in latin america right now
15:04 bernie: ^
15:04 dirakx that would be an option, bernie.
15:05 tch people from the  ministry.of.education.py is planning to go
15:05 bernie tch: the fsf has a policy of not sending off employees to conferences. at least, this is what the previous ED told me.
15:06 dirakx tch: great.
15:06 bernie tch: rms is our traveling agent :-)
15:06 m_anish: there are some strange games in os85dx :)
15:07 m_anish bernie, all on py's request
15:07 :)
15:07 tch bernie: change the rules!
15:07 m_anish i removed gc, tp from the buids
15:07 bernie m_anish: didn't you build the image off the intl ini file?
15:08 m_anish bernie, yep, i thought it might make sense to keep activities consistent?
15:08 bernie, then we'll receive testing feedback on the activities that py uses as well
15:09 bernie <sarcastic comment on the eduteam suppressed>
15:09 :-)
15:11 m_anish :-)
15:11 i guess we can endmeeting now
15:11 3
15:11 bernie m_anish: it makes sense to help .py in this way, but at the same time the intl dextrose build is supposed to showcase dextrose for other deployments too
15:12 m_anish bernie, we can package some more activities, but keep the set py uses
15:12 bernie m_anish: +1
15:12 dirakx m_anish: +1
15:12 m_anish bernie, and have the updater url have some more installable
15:12 bernie m_anish: space isn't an issue except for gcompris and crap like that
15:12 tch lol..
15:13 m_anish bernie, dirakx i'll bug you in a while on this then
15:13 dirakx m_anish: yep np.
15:13 m_anish oops i meant just dirakx
15:13 bernie wow, has gcompris been dropped? can't believe my eyes!!
15:13 m_anish bernie, just from intl build, (don't get too happy)
15:13 bernie haha :)
15:13 m_anish it didn't make sense to increase the size by 150 mb just bec of one activity
15:14 tch m_anish: we should insist in not providing it with the build, and only by the act updater
15:14 m_anish tch, you mean for py?
15:14 tch yup
15:14 m_anish tch, i'm afraid i tried that already
15:14 they told me to keep another build without gc handy if they start running out of space on badly corrupted flash drives
15:15 bernie m_anish: the tetris mat activity comes up in spanish... it probably doesn't have i18n
15:15 m_anish tch, i have to take their word in this that its actually being used, however big it is
15:15 bernie, bug report :)
15:15 bernie tch: +1
15:16 m_anish: when i asked, they told me "kids like it". and i replied: "kids also like doom, shall we put it in?"
15:18 endmeeting?
15:18 m_anish bernie, tch  i beg to differ here. I think we'll be stepping on toes if we start insisting on removing activities, i made them understand that the build will be a lot bigger because of just GC
15:18 and TP
15:18 i can't go fighting with them :-)
15:19 2
15:19 1
15:19 1
15:19 #endmeeting
15:19 meeting Meeting ended Sat Mar 26 15:19:28 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
15:19 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-26T14:15:55.html
15:19 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-03-26T14:15:55
15:19 tch guess we are too professionals to switch versions :,(
15:19 dirakx thanks all.
15:19 bernie m_anish: yes, you're right. i think it will take them some time to see the *consequences* of making the build bigger. now they might be thinking "who cares?".
15:19 tch lol,
15:20 bernie m_anish: did they make gcompris protected too?
15:20 m_anish bernie, well if it helps they always have the option of removing it
15:20 bernie, not protected anymore
15:20 silbe, dirakx, thanks!
15:21 dirakx m_anish: ty
15:21 m_anish tch, bernie i guess we're still talking :-)
15:22 silbe m_anish: thanks for what?
15:22 m_anish silbe, meeting :)
15:22 silbe m_anish: ah. yw. :)
15:23 m_anish bernie, i haven't been able to reproduce the coredump btw :/
15:24 bernie #realendmeeting
15:24 :-)
15:24 m_anish: if it's really really rare... then it doesn't annoy users that much
15:25 m_anish: our goal is not to make dextrose perfect, just a lot better than the previous version :)
15:26 m_anish bernie, agree, just check if you see the coredump after using the build for a while. I think I had seen it on one more machine a while ago, but I don't have that (and it could be unrelated)
15:28 bernie m_anish: btw, coredumps are normally turned off on linux systems... i think i've turned them on in dextrose to debug that nasty problem with sugar crashing on downloads. have you ever seen it?
15:30 silbe bernie: I've had Sugar crash some times while the Journal was active - not (just) download related :-/
15:30 m_anish bernie, hmm does it go something like... you start a download through browse, then internet connectivity gets broken -> you reconnect -> try to resume the downloading journal entry -> sugar crashes. i think i may have seen something on those lines...
15:31 silbe m_anish: if you find any recipe to reproduce the crash, that would be fine. It's always been totally random for me :(
15:32 m_anish silbe, bernie there was another 'design' question. Folks using the xo are very reliant on using browse (and by extension google services) on the laptop. for example, they use google image search, blogger, etc a lot, However, google keeps on making newer avatars of these portals clunkier and slower, but we don't really have fast(er) hardware to complement that.
15:32 silbe, yea :/
15:32 silbe, but that was the vague sequence of actions
15:33 silbe, and the xo-1 h/w is here to stay for a while i guess
15:33 bernie, ^
15:33 silbe m_anish: I still don't grok why people do that. It's slower, more expensive, produces more CO2, requires a permanent internet connection, etc. Where's the benefit?
15:35 m_anish: FWIW, I don't think there's much if anything we can do to improve performance. The browser engine and the network connection are the bottlenecks, not the tiny bits of code to make the browser look like a Sugar activity.
15:35 m_anish silbe, its very inefficient b.w. and/or productivity wise considering how much the XO is built around optimizing things
15:36 bernie m_anish, silbe: i think that crash has a small probability of happening when sugar is doing dbus communication... this is why it happens frequently when you browse the journal or download a file
15:36 silbe m_anish: a local proxy configured to selectively block flash ads, javascript snippets etc. might be worth a try, but it's a high maintenance overhead option.
15:36 bernie m_anish, silbe: the crash happens in the garbage collector of python, probably due to some memory corruption that occurred earlier... so it's really hard to find
15:36 m_anish silbe, i guess i see a problem here. 2 yrs from now, google(and internet ingeneral) will be clunkier yet, and we'll still have xo-1's around
15:37 bernie m_anish, silbe: the python maintainer of fedora told me that in f15 the bug will be covered because they built cpython with asserts disabled :-)
15:37 m_anish: maybe we should do that too... rebuild the python rpm with debug disabled... it might even make sugar a little faster.
15:37 m_anish silbe, maybe load mobile versions of websites (i knw its not ideal)
15:37 but that's the equivalent processing power on a xo-1 i guess?
15:38 silbe m_anish: for XO-1 there's only one answer: do as much as possible locally. Even for XO-1.5 I recommend that, but it's not crucial.
15:38 lucian <lucian!~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:39 m_anish bernie, yep
15:39 silbe bernie: I don't think that's really a good idea. Best case Sugar keeps working with corrupted data. Chances are it just crashes a short time later.
15:40 m_anish: not quite. Your average 2010 smart phone should have roughly twice the computing power and comparable to twice the memory of the XO-1.
15:40 m_anish silbe, i think it might be easier said than done, (staying local)
15:41 silbe, what this basically implies that the browser on the xo-1 is already half dead, and it will be completely dead in another 1-2 years :/
15:42 silbe m_anish: it's mostly a social issue. We still have all the tools from before the Cloud era and even some new ones (e.g. sup as MUA).
15:42 bernie silbe: then maybe we should compile cpython with *MORE* debug stuff in it and hope to see the crash during a download of a big file or somethong
15:42 thing
15:43 btw, the bug is this one: http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/2064
15:43 silbe m_anish: more or less so, yep. Blame the mainstream mentality. Most web site owners don't even care for non-IE browsers.
15:43 bernie: +1
15:43 bernie silbe: does someone _still_ care about IE??
15:44 lucian silbe: i doubt that's entirely true
15:44 m_anish bernie, haha, its still the dominant browser, isn't it?
15:44 bernie, i know a few govt portals in ind who design only for IE, it sucks :/
15:44 lucian is surprised that is even legal
15:45 silbe bernie: and we should move forward with splitting Sugar (shell) into separate processes to narrow it down some more (though the Journal already is a good candidate).
15:46 lucian points at gnome-shell
15:47 silbe lucian: ok, granted, any claim saying "most" for such a large number of different entities should raise red flags. :) Let's just say "a surprisingly and annoyingly high number of sites".
15:47 m_anish silbe, i guess this is worth discussing over m-l, see if someone has a few bright ideas?
15:47 silbe m_anish: context Browse or crash?
15:48 m_anish silbe, i guess we both agree there is a problem here
15:48 silbe m_anish: it's hard not to agree
15:49 m_anish lucian, money : gravitational force :: legality : general relativity ;-)
15:49 silbe, context=browse
15:49 silbe, i guess so
15:50 silbe, bernie can you tell from experience whether browse was a lot smoother 2-3 years ago?
15:50 silbe m_anish: the problem partly is that the XO-1 hardware is so outdated that even most of the phones that are capable of running a web browser have more resources than the XO-1.
15:50 m_anish silbe, +1, but that isn't gonna change, and we want to be able to provide the same level of services via browse as before
15:50 silbe m_anish: it has always been slow on XO-1 for me. Haven't noticed any change.
15:51 m_anish: one idea might be to play with compressed swap to relieve the memory pressure a bit. Not sure if it would help or make things even worse.
15:51 m_anish silbe, i've noticed it to be painfully slow in classrooms in caacupe (without any core dumps)
15:52 lucian silbe: make things worse, i'd guess. that's what happens on my G1
15:53 silbe m_anish: but I think the only solution that's going to make a major difference (as opposed to a few percent speed-up) is going local.
15:53 lucian well, webkit *is* better on both cpu and memory usage
15:53 (and don't say firefox is efficient until you've actually proven it)
15:53 if the xo-1 got a recent enough fedora, it could run the upcoming Surf
15:53 i guess
15:54 silbe lucian: I always said Mozilla is inefficient, and I have proven it. Well, compared to a text browser that is. ;)
15:55 lucian silbe: i wasn't necessarily talking to you. whenever webkit was mentioned, people jumped to defend xulrunner's efficiency
15:55 then when i proved it was a hog several times, no one bothered to admit they were wrong :)
15:55 silbe lucian: but I'm really curious how Surf will compare with Browse in terms of performance.
15:55 <g>
15:55 lucian silbe: it's already faster, just incomplete
15:56 bernie m_anish: IE is still dominant, but not for long: http://marketshare.hitslink.co[…]d=0&qptimeframe=M
15:56 lucian with py-gi and some time, it'll catch up in terms of features
15:58 bernie m_anish: Browse on the XO? it's always been quite sluggish in my memory, but nowadays i see users trying to use it with maps.google.com or gmail.com, which makes it even more painful.
15:58 lucian is there any chance of getting a recent enough OS on it to have py-gi?
15:59 bernie m_anish: i remember that many years ago we fixed a problem with scaled bitmaps in xulrunner... they were taking up huge amounts of memory because xulrunner was keeping 3-4 copies of the same image in memory
15:59 lucian: dx3 will be based on f14. is that recent enough?
15:59 silbe: when can we have a test image of dx3?
16:00 silbe bernie: I'll try to get one out today.
16:00 m_anish bernie, i would've suggested using mobile versions of websites, but that is a quickfix and will result in big changes in the way some websites look n feel :/
16:02 bernie m_anish: here IE seems even below 50%: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U[…]e_of_web_browsers
16:03 lucian bernie: i haven't checked, but probably yes
16:03 bernie m_anish: this one is even more amazing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F[…]er_share_crop.png
16:03 lucian bernie: i think it just reflects my own experience
16:04 i very rarely see anyone use IE
16:04 either firefox or chrome
16:04 silbe bernie: don't trust any statistics you haven't forged yourself ;)
16:04 lucian several forged statistics showed IE to be weak in EU :)
16:05 bernie: even if f14 doesn't have quite new enough py-gi and webkit/libsoup, i'm sure they can be added much more easily
16:06 m_anish lucian, most ppl here I see use either IE on win7 or safari on apple, most people back in Ind are stuck on ie6/7 on old computers
16:06 lucian m_anish: that's sad. and odd to me
16:06 has to go
16:07 m_anish lucian, ok chau!
16:08 bernie lucian: i think there are 2 ways to count browsers. The majority of occasional computer users are probably still using IE, but the majority of people who use the internet intensively have switched
16:09 lucian: if one wants to know the market share just for targeting consumer with ads, they'd better target the IE users because it's more likely that they'd be vulnerable to simple marketing tricks
16:12 silbe lucian: cu
16:14 m_anish - afk for a while
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