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#sugar-meeting, 2011-03-13

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15:00 garycmartin Ping, any one here for the design meeting?
15:01 silbe garycmartin: yup
15:01 garycmartin Hi silbe!
15:01 silbe walterbender might be, too, but I don't see Christian yet...
15:01 garycmartin: good afternoon!
15:02 walterbender hi
15:02 garycmartin Hi walterbender
15:03 walterbender We transitioned off of Daylight Savings Time in the US last night...
15:03 people are prob. a bit confused about the hour
15:03 garycmartin Aaaah...
15:03 christianmarcsch <christianmarcsch!~christian@cpe-24-193-242-220.nyc.res.rr.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:04 walterbender google calander has the wrong time :)
15:04 christianmarcsch hi
15:04 silbe ok, christianmarcsch seems to have got the time right anyway :)
15:04 christianmarcsch silbe: yes!
15:04 garycmartin (Here in the UK we go UTC+1 in two weeks)
15:04 christianmarcsch: Hi.
15:04 silbe FGrose is from Germany AFAIK, so he shouldn't have DST issues (yet ;) )
15:05 garycmartin #startmeeting
15:05 meeting Meeting started Sun Mar 13 15:05:59 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:05 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:06 christianmarcsch i just forwarded a pdf with the frame option for the activity detail view
15:06 garycmartin #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Meetings
15:06 christianmarcsch if anyone didn't receive it let me know!
15:07 silbe christianmarcsch: when did you send it? It didn't arrive yet.
15:07 garycmartin The agenda still needs a tidy, I didn't get around to tackling it this week (apologies).
15:07 christianmarcsch silbe: just now, a minute ago
15:07 silbe: i sent it to your sugarlabs email
15:08 garycmartin #topic frame option for the activity detail view
15:08 christianmarcsch: thanks, pdf just arrived.
15:08 christianmarcsch garycmartin: great
15:08 so, the frame option is relatively conservative--the idea is to simply insert activity naming, scope, and description into the activity menu
15:09 works well, IMO
15:09 silbe ok, now it's there
15:09 christianmarcsch of the three options, this actually feels the most tied to the existing UI
15:09 garycmartin looking...
15:10 christianmarcsch (btw, i'm not sure if the other items in the menu are totally up-to-date)
15:10 garycmartin christianmarcsch: was the tag section just too much for option 3?
15:11 christianmarcsch garycmartin: we could include, but it didn't seem essential in this usecase
15:11 i think of this as a paired-down version of the detail view in journal
15:11 it would co-exist with the current detail view
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15:12 christianmarcsch this option actually makes sense to me, if we are going for minimal changes overall
15:13 there are two variations, by the way
15:13 i am leaning towards the former, but curious about what you think
15:15 garycmartin christianmarcsch: visually, I like it (first version of option 3), but I think there are a few things that might make option 2 better.
15:17 christianmarcsch: 1) there is the technical issue that walterbender already hit trying to reference the correct Journal object from the frame (multiple kept objects have the same ID)
15:20 2) hmm actually I don't think there is a 2) ;-)
15:21 christianmarcsch garycmartin: hah, ok
15:21 silbe 2) more space available
15:21 christianmarcsch i'm relatively impartial towards these ideas
15:21 personally i also liked both option 1 and 2 for different reasons
15:22 walterbender christianmarcsch: me too... as long as we chose one of them
15:22 christianmarcsch but 3 did feel right, also, and would be easier to implement
15:22 (i think)
15:23 garycmartin christianmarcsch: would the existing Activity secondary toolbar remain unchanged?
15:23 christianmarcsch garycmartin: for option 3, yes. it is in addition to whatever there is already
15:24 silbe #1 is probably the easiest to implement and could be changed to the "flip over" effect. #2 and #3 both require changes to activities, with #2 being a major effort in non-Python activities.
15:24 garycmartin would the duplication of sharing and title cause any technical issues?
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15:25 silbe garycmartin: in theory: no. In practice we seem to be having some trouble with the existing title toolbar widget already.
15:27 (metadata change in the data store gets triggered at the wrong time because we don't seem to get a focus-out event under all circumstances and have hacked around that)
15:27 garycmartin I think my preference is for #1, it's visually simple with the most focus on task.
15:28 silbe garycmartin: ok. What do you think about turning it full-screen, non-modal (e.g. auto-close on window switch) if we have the flip-over effect (activity -> metadata -> activity)?
15:29 garycmartin silbe: perhaps for folks with composition enabled, we can make the dialogue fullscreen and then paint the semi transparent border.
15:29 silbe garycmartin: and along the same lines, what about auto-close of the dialog if the focus leaves the window (think learner clicking "beside" the window)
15:30 christianmarcsch i'd prefer to keep the transparent border around the dialog
15:30 from a design-perspective that's the space that would be occupied by the frame, and therefor it is nice to keep it reserved. it also gives context
15:30 garycmartin +1 to keeping the transparent border around dialogue, it's pretty critical for context.
15:30 silbe garycmartin: I don't expect alpha borders to work well enough on the XO. Some simple transition effects (like the flip-over) might work, though.
15:31 garycmartin silbe: They seem to be working fine on my XO-1!
15:31 christianmarcsch silbe: we could also try a
15:31 silbe: (sorry)
15:31 silbe: we could also try a "fake" alpha border with a dot pattern
15:32 silbe garycmartin: interesting. You need to tell how exactly you're doing that after the meeting.
15:32 christianmarcsch: "fake" alpha?
15:32 garycmartin silbe: I even get drop shadows on all the pop-up palettes and the frame, and it still seems quite happy. My main worry is memory, needs checking to see how much we would be loosing.
15:32 christianmarcsch silbe: meaning with a dot pattern overlay. i think garycmartin mentioned this in the last meeting
15:35 silbe christianmarcsch: ah, so "just" 0% and 100% alpha (but with a pattern), instead of some value in between (but without a pattern)? Sounds like it could work better, but I can't tell for sure without trying it out.
15:36 garycmartin: looking forward to trying it out myself. My experiences with compositing on XOs so far haven't been exactly pleasant (still need to try the new "chrome" driver on the XO-1.5).
15:36 christianmarcsch silbe: yes--as a fallback :)
15:37 garycmartin silbe: quick hack, just open terminal and type metacity --replace --composite Sugar gets a little funky (frame corner hotspots stopped along with some keyboard shortcuts) right after, but just reboot and the setting sticks.
15:37 silbe ok, so I guess everybody would be fine with #1, only details needing some fleshing out?
15:37 christianmarcsch i want walter to weigh in too, since i know he was in favor of a frame option!
15:37 silbe walterbender: ^
15:38 garycmartin christianmarcsch: the other trick could be copy the edges of the main window, open a fullscreen dialogue, and paint in the edges again but tinted darker.
15:39 silbe garycmartin: ah, ok. But that involves only some small areas, right? Nothing comparing to the size in the mock-ups?
15:40 garycmartin silbe: sorry didn't follow that.
15:43 silbe garycmartin: I guess the alpha / compositing stuff that metacity --composite does only affects small parts of the screen? A few pixels around each window? I'm worried that doing alpha composition on large parts of the screen would take too long to render on XO-1 (and maybe XO-1.5 for now).
15:43 garycmartin silbe: idea is to make a dialogue that looks just like the dialogue in option 1. but cheating the alpha effect by faking the transparent effect with black tinted edge strips pasted in from the original (now hidden) canvas
15:44 silbe garycmartin: I don't think the latter idea will fly - reading from video memory is rather slow on systems that don't share the main memory with the graphics chip. IIRC the XOs use a separate video memory.
15:45 garycmartin silbe: running metacity --replace --composite worked fine on my XO-1 for casual use, and testing Moon activity running with 50% transparency, but yes I'm sure it is buffering all the windows and eating a bunch more memory, actual speed didn't seem slower.
15:45 silbe but these should be implementation details anyway
15:46 christianmarcsch i'm going to have to drop off in a few mins
15:46 it would be great if we could get a decision on this today though...
15:47 any of the three directions would work i think
15:47 garycmartin Do we have agreement on Option 1?
15:47 christianmarcsch i also like option 1
15:47 garycmartin: +1
15:47 garycmartin +1 (and do what ever we can to fix dialogues)
15:47 silbe christianmarcsch: we could decide to give #1 a try. walterbender can still follow up via email, and if it doesn't work out during implementation we can still reconsider
15:48 christianmarcsch silbe: that makes sense.
15:48 silbe: it would actually be good to test if before rolling out
15:49 garycmartin Fab.
15:49 christianmarcsch great!
15:50 and if you have any other thoughts for additional options, let me know
15:50 garycmartin #agreed Option 1 (dialogue view of details)
15:50 silbe christianmarcsch: we always test before shipping something. The only difference is how much work is going to be wasted when we decide to jump trains (does that make sense in english?) later.
15:50 christianmarcsch silbe: yes, that's what i expected!
15:51 garycmartin christianmarcsch: we need a standard toolbar button to pop-up the dialogue, ideally it would be used both in activities and in the journal.
15:51 christianmarcsch one question about option 1
15:51 would we be able to invoke it through the activity toolbar?
15:51 or do we keep the current activity toolbar as is?
15:51 garycmartin: we had the same thought! :)
15:51 silbe how else would the user invoke it?
15:52 christianmarcsch silbe: through the hover palette in journal, and in other views
15:52 garycmartin christianmarcsch: we could replace the Keep button with a details view button
15:52 christianmarcsch silbe: but i agree there should be a way to do that through the activity toolbar
15:52 garycmartin: that's a great idea
15:52 garycmartin: we could even repurpose the icon, unless there is a better solution
15:52 silbe oh, that reminds me: Browse has special UI to show the details view for downloaded items. How should the new feature interact with that?
15:53 garycmartin As you need to dash, lets have a think over this week about it and tackle it next week.
15:53 christianmarcsch: ^
15:53 christianmarcsch silbe: is there a screenshot of that feature on the wiki?
15:53 silbe christianmarcsch: oh, so the dialog is meant to replace the details view in the Journal as well?
15:53 christianmarcsch silbe: yes...
15:53 silbe: for option 1, i think it's best if it is fully consistent
15:54 garycmartin silbe: Browse? Does it? Hmmm, that's new to me :)
15:55 silbe: (or do you mean the alert that pop-up after a download has completed 'show in journal' thing?)
15:55 silbe garycmartin: that's the one. Haven't found any screenshot on the wiki showing it, though...
15:56 christianmarcsch hmm
15:56 garycmartin silbe: it has no icon, it's just an alert strip under the toolbar that pops up with text and OK/show in journal buttons
15:56 christianmarcsch garycmartin: oh, i see
15:57 folks, i'm going to have to jump off
15:57 but it's good we could reach consensus on option 1!
15:57 garycmartin christianmarcsch: many thanks for getting the mockups done!
15:57 christianmarcsch garycmartin: sure!
15:57 same time next week?
15:57 garycmartin Yey, consensus! :-)
15:57 christianmarcsch: same time next week +1 for me
15:58 silbe garycmartin: from a technical PoV, the existing feature Browse uses and the proposed feature are very similar. The question is whether we to pop up the metadata dialog for a downloaded item on top of Browse (=> could just tweak the existing code), but ...
15:58 christianmarcsch see you later
15:58 silbe s/but .../ or switch to the Journal and pop it up there.
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15:59 walterbender +1 and thanks to all
16:00 garycmartin silbe: No I think the case is different, clicking the proposed "show detail view" widget in Browse would be for tweaking it's metadata, not the metadata of something you just downloaded.
16:01 silbe: ...or did you mean that the existing Browse 'show in journal' alert could be updated to use the new proposed detail view dialogue instead?
16:01 silbe garycmartin: the latter one
16:02 garycmartin :)
16:02 silbe garycmartin: the API is "show the details view for uid=xyz"
16:03 garycmartin silbe: OK, well yes possibly, will need to think on the use case. One for next week?
16:03 silbe garycmartin: +1
16:03 garycmartin #endmeeting
16:03 meeting Meeting ended Sun Mar 13 16:03:40 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:03 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-13T15:05:59.html
16:03 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-03-13T15:05:59
16:03 silbe garycmartin: thanks for leading the meetings, BTW.
16:04 garycmartin Thanks silbe, walterbender, same time next week.
16:04 silbe looking forward to it.
16:04 walterbender OK. sorry I had to step out for a moment...
16:05 you guys are making good progress
16:05 garycmartin silbe: Weekly is OK as long as we don't go too much over time (we used to do it every two weeks to avoid burn out I think).
16:05 silbe garycmartin: maybe we could also talk next week about how to fix dialogs (as you mentioned above)?
16:06 garycmartin silbe: isn't that more a technical/implementation issue?
16:07 silbe garycmartin: yep, keeping the time down is definitely a good idea. One, max. two hours would seem a good fit.
16:07 garycmartin: the dialog fixing? Depends on what exactly you meant.
16:08 garycmartin: i.e. how _should_ the dialogs behave, and in what way do we currently deviate from that? The first part is design, the second implementation.
16:09 garycmartin silbe: ah, OK see what you mean, I was hoping you'd tell us the bits you thought were currently broken ;)
16:09 silbe garycmartin: heh.
16:09 garycmartin: "We use dialogs." :-P
16:12 garycmartin: you mentioned using alpha composition in / with Moon. Can you give details? Or was that just on an in-activity level, using Cairo?
16:14 garycmartin silbe: FWIW With my design hat on I don't like modal dialogues, however I'll make exceptions to that general rule when they are only modal to a single Activity (i.e don't block the whole system), and are used in a fullscreen design (e.g the user can't miss that they are now in a modal dialogue state).
16:17 silbe: Moon, just looking again, I was mucking around with full window transparency in gtk
16:18 silbe garycmartin: I agree on having no global dialogues. In applications (activities) that can be OK for some stuff, but I don't really like them. But not being a designer, I often don't have a better idea, so I try to restrain myself from complaining too much (not always successfully ;) ).
16:18 garycmartin: interesting. Can you send me the patch, please? (silbe@sl.o)
16:21 garycmartin silbe: it's a tidily little one liner, self.set_opacity(0.5) down at about line #193 of moon.py (at the end of the __init__ method)
16:28 silbe garycmartin: thanks, will try that. FWIW, end of __init__.py is line 179/180 for me (mainline/master).
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16:39 satellit_ silbe: bugzilla 684588 surf-115.xo on sugar 0.90.0 on f15 gnome3 test day .iso installed to HD
16:39 browse 120 also will not start
16:40 running gnome3
16:41 FYI looking foreward......
16:50 silbe satellit_: can't say I'm surprised that Browse won't work (xulrunner has always been problematic), but I am (surprised) that Sugar starts at all on a system running Gnome 3. That's good news.
16:52 satellit-gn3 here it is. Xchat I used dd to write iso to USB booted it and installed to USB external HD. works on ACER ASPIRE ONE but not on EeePC1000HE (that uses fallback to gnome 2....
16:53 yum groupinstall sugar* --skip-broken  (evince deps)
16:55 sugar-emultor works also..but as teminal command "sugar-emulator -f" Netbook screen too small for menu start
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