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#sugar-meeting, 2011-03-09

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13:02 geirea pflores_: ping
13:03 walterbender: ping
13:03 pflores_ geirea: pong
13:03 walterbender good morning
13:03 geirea good morning
13:03 pflores_ hi!
13:03 walterbender how are the twins?
13:04 pflores_ good! i have facundo inmy lap right now
13:04 so I may write a bit slow :-/
13:04 walterbender I suppose that they are still a bit young for Turtle Art :)
13:04 pflores_ haha!
13:04 yeah I guess
13:06 walterbender so gentlemen, what is the agenda for this morning?
13:06 pflores_ are you in Boston now?
13:06 walterbender yes...
13:06 pflores_ I have 2 topics
13:06 1. Code sprint
13:06 walterbender and the first signs of spring are here
13:06 pflores_ 2. Summit program group
13:06 cool
13:07 geirea: any other topics?
13:07 geirea no, that? fine
13:07 pflores_ ok
13:07 #topic 1. Code sprint
13:07 walterbender I'd like to add the idea of lightening talks as well
13:08 pflores_ ok. 3. lightening talks
13:08 walterbender before we begin, one point that needs clarifying in my mind:
13:08 Are we discussing the Ceibal Jam event, Sugar Camp, or both as one and the same?
13:08 geirea good question
13:08 pflores_ well, I think that's exactly the point
13:09 We have a number of great developers comming to eduJAM: alsroot, bernie, tch, you guys...
13:09 So we think it would be best to do the code sprint here right after the summit
13:10 the question: is it possible?
13:10 walterbender so the edusprint is 5-7 May?
13:10 and the idea would be to code sprint the 8-9th?
13:11 pflores_ yeah, or maybe a bit longer
13:11 alsroot hopes to have ready-to-use sdk for end of april, so it should be really useful to present it there
13:11 walterbender It may be difficult for people to get away for so long... but given the distance some of us will be traveling, it also makes sense to stay a bit.
13:12 geirea even a one-day code sprint (sunday) would be useful imo
13:12 walterbender geirea: yes... especially if we do some up-front work
13:12 geirea not as a substitute to a complete sugar camp
13:13 walterbender but I find a couple of days better than one since you get a chance for overnight reflection
13:14 geirea also, tickets are generally cheaper mid-week
13:15 walterbender geirea: a big consideration for some of us...
13:15 pflores_ for instance, cjb told adam he would come if there's a code sprint of 4 days or similar
13:15 geirea during the edujam event we are also planning a sugar-specific track
13:16 pflores_ other AC developers may also be able to stay for some days
13:16 geirea in parallel with a more basic "starting to code your activities" track
13:17 pflores_ alsroot: great!
13:17 walterbender maybe it would help if you guys laid out the current agenda for the CeibalJam event
13:17 geirea so the sprint would not start on sunday
13:18 just a proposal for the agenda: http://ceibaljam.org/drupal/?q=node/1106
13:19 (sorry it's spanish) this one also: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/U[…]mmit_2011#Program
13:20 walterbender .es is fine.
13:21 There seems to be room in the Friday agenda for a Sugar-Camp lightening talks session.
13:21 and perhaps the hackers can break away from the Saturday agenda to start the code sprint?
13:21 geirea walterbender: what do you mean by lightening?
13:21 walterbender and code until Monday... leave on Tuesday?
13:22 geirea: 5 minute talks to introduce a new idea
13:22 pflores_ I wouldn't reduce the unconference
13:22 walterbender geirea: or revisit an existing topic, e.g., introspection
13:22 pflores_ I mean, I would start the sprint on sunday
13:22 walterbender pflores_: what are the goals of the unconference?
13:23 pflores_ is the problem that all activities may get too long?
13:23 geirea walterbender: the unconference was intended to do something similar to the lightening
13:23 walterbender maybe we could swap Friday and Saturday?
13:23 I don't think the hackers need to attend 'how to write a Sugar activity'
13:24 and the lightening talks could then be part of the unconference.
13:24 pflores_ walterbender: To have spaces for discussing important issues arisen from deployments and the rest of the summit
13:25 walterbender OK. seems like we need to be sequential, not parallel
13:25 pflores_ walterbender:  'how to write a Sugar activity' is a separate track
13:26 geirea we want the local community to get involved in developing activities and sugar itself, i wouldn't like to have the advanced hackers completely separated from the new ones
13:26 walterbender geirea: well, most of the core Sugar hackers don't write activities :P
13:26 geirea: maybe it is time that they did :P
13:28 pflores_ I think we can discuss the agenda to make it better, but the biggest imo is: does it make sense to make a code sprint right after the summit?
13:29 walterbender pflores_: since it doesn't seem to make sense to do it concurrently, then yes, right afterward.
13:30 geirea having all the developers in the same place at the same time it would be a waste not to do it
13:30 and also it would be a great inspiration for our local developers
13:31 the question is whether visitors can afford to stay a couple of days
13:31 and what can we do to make it worthwhile
13:31 pflores_ +1
13:32 I think many developers will be "heating engines" (is the expression correct?) during the summit
13:32 geirea warming up?
13:33 walterbender I presume we can find inexpensive lodging (although I assume pflores_ no longer has a couch available :) )
13:33 but the question is time away from day jobs, etc.
13:33 pflores_ walterbender: I don't know if I understood you well in last chat we had: Is olpc-a willing to support somehow the code sprint?
13:33 geirea yes, we can find couches
13:34 walterbender pflores_: I don't know. I can ask. (I hope I can convince them to send me to .uy, for example.)
13:34 pflores_ walterbender: yes I still have a couch but I think it's already reserved by Christoph ;)
13:35 walterbender: may they be interested in appearing as sponsors?
13:36 walterbender pflores_: If OLPC F sends cjb, I presume that they are sponsoring as well...
13:38 geirea can we agree to poll the main developers for their availability for the code sprint?
13:38 walterbender pflores_: there may be other 'sponsors' as well... for example, if collabora were able to send rgs...
13:38 geirea: yes... we already have a webpage in the Sugar Labs wiki asking about availability
13:38 pflores_ walterbender: I mean something like: if they pay for sending x attendees to the summit/sprint (x=5?), they have presence in the summit announcements, a roll-up, etc., whatever
13:38 walterbender geirea: but we should modify it to reflect this discussion
13:39 pflores_: 5 is a lot
13:39 esp. from the US and Europe
13:40 pflores_ ok, so you think they may give a 1K sponsorship but not a 5K sponsorship
13:41 (BTW collabra seems to be a good place to ask for sponsorship)
13:41 walterbender pflores_: I think it is worth asking for 5K, sure... but I am just suggesting, it is a lot of money.
13:43 pflores_ ok, maybe we can write them an invitation for being sponsors in different levels
13:44 Would it make sense to make a "short" sprint of 2 days and for the ones that can stay have 2 extra "bonus track" days?
13:44 walterbender sure... but I doubt that will really matter to any of these particular organizations
13:44 pflores_ walterbender: ok :-/
13:45 walterbender pflores_: I think we should do S-M and ask that people arrive on R to be here for the EduJam as well...
13:45 and some will start early
13:45 but S-M would be fully devoted to coding
13:45 geirea walterbender: what infraestructure do you think we would need for the code sprint?
13:45 walterbender but we could poll about the ability to stay longer
13:46 geirea: AC and Internet and a coffee shop near by
13:46 geirea: maybe a white board
13:46 and/or a video projector
13:47 pflores_ walterbender great, we have many places where we could do that...
13:47 geirea round tables better than classroom-like chairs?
13:47 walterbender geirea: maybe arrange tables in a big  circle so everyone is facing in...
13:47 tables are better than classroom chairs
13:48 geirea ok i think we can get a good place
13:49 pflores_ cool
13:49 geirea we have only 10 minutes, let's talk about the program committee
13:49 pflores_ walterbender: do you have plans for making another code sprint soon?
13:50 walterbender pflores_: ideally, we should aim for once every 6 months
13:50 pflores_ ok
13:50 #topic 2. Summit program group
13:50 walterbender we have a standing offer to do one in Miami
13:50 has access to lots of couches in Miami
13:50 pflores_ walterbender: maybe for doing it in the 2nd half of the year?
13:51 geirea miami is the plane baricenter of latiin america
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13:51 walterbender pflores_: we may as well wait for the weather to turn bad :)
13:51 pflores_ haha!
13:51 ok
13:51 About the summit program
13:52 whe have a sketch of the agenda, now we should work on details, for that we proposed a group
13:52 Us 3 + Andr
13:53 I think the best would be to coordinate to meet all together on IRC
13:53 walterbender I still think that if it is an EduJam, we should include some teachers
13:53 Guzman is a very motivated Physics teacher in Montevideo
13:53 or Rozamel
13:53 pflores_ EDU stands for "Encuentro Desarrolladores Uruguay" :)
13:54 geirea walterbender: in our experience it was very hard to establish an effective dialogue with teachers :(
13:54 i mean, for working
13:54 walterbender poor choice of acronym as it is very misleading in English
13:55 let's try taking a risk with Guzman. He is local to you guys, which should help.
13:55 geirea no, we wanted to be about education software
13:55 pflores_ I think we should hear their needs, maybe talking in a separate group
13:56 geirea walterbender: the problem here in uruguay is that if the event is about education you have a hundred teachers coming an sitting and asking for a certificate, it's been very hard for us to manage
13:56 walterbender geirea: if we want to talk about educational software and we want to exchange ideas from deployments, then not involving teachers is a big mistake, IMHO
13:57 geirea: I am not suggesting we make this a teacher conference.
13:57 pflores_ In our experience, getting all together leads to a lot of extra work for speaking the same language. A few people, like Rosamel have found good ways for interacting effectively
13:57 geirea walterbender: agreed, i'm not saying we don't want to, i'm saying we've been unable to do it
13:57 walterbender geirea: but I am suggesting we get some enthusiastic and progressive teachers involved
13:58 pflores_ So I suggest to have a different space to hear their input for the summit program
13:58 walterbender and if we don't tap into the local deployment experience of .uy, why bother to travel all that way?
13:58 pflores_ walterbender: we'll have ceibal team experience, as well as many other deployment's
13:59 walterbender pflores_: perhaps. I find it a very different discussion getting feedback from a developer vs getting feedback from a teacher
14:00 geirea walterbender: this is an issue that's central and has generated a lot of heated debate, how do you get useful feedback from a teacher?
14:00 walterbender geirea: you don't do it by segregating them
14:01 pflores_ walterbender: we've worked for 3 years in ceibalJAM and NEVER segregated them
14:01 walterbender pflores_: "So I suggest to have a different space to hear their input"
14:01 geirea we agree teachers shouldn't be left out, they always come to our events
14:01 we spent a lot of effort in trying to have their input
14:01 and we failed
14:02 pflores_ yes of course the communication channels with teachers should be different sometimes
14:02 walterbender geirea: I was making a modest suggestion to invite some teachers to the program committee and it seems to have touched a nerve.
14:03 geirea walterbender: well, it's a big issue for us, source of frustration and burn out
14:03 so yeah, it touched a nerve
14:03 walterbender geirea: and perhaps one we should address head-on in the summit
14:03 maybe a session on how to engage teachers?
14:03 geirea walterbender: there's probably no better discussion to have
14:04 walterbender geirea: but my point is, it is perhaps a good strategy to ask some 'sympathetic' teachers to help plan that discussion
14:05 geirea: and there are some very very good teachers in .uy
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14:05 pflores_ I agree we should have this session.
14:06 and we could plan it with some teachers like Guzman and Rosamel
14:07 geirea we have to be careful so it doesn't turn into a teacher catharsis about the lack of training and critics to the educational institution
14:07 walterbender geirea: agreed. we need to focus on communication with the community. this is not about the teacher relationship with LATU
14:08 geirea walterbender: LATU and ANEP, they have a strong hierarchical culture and teachers don't have an outlet for these discussions
14:09 walterbender has a dream that every teacher would discover IRC
14:09 pflores_ walterbender: +1
14:10 maybe we developers should invent an easy, usable and cool enough IRC system for teachers
14:12 walterbender pflores_: our just make the default channel on the IRC activty be #sugar-maestro-es
14:12 pflores_ which would require a lot of development work and of course, teachers feedback in an iterative process. However, according to our experience, it's not effective just putting all together a bunch of school teachers and a bunch of developers in the same room: communication problems take away any productivity
14:13 walterbender: could be a good start, but doesn't scale
14:14 So, for not loosing the focus of our discussion, I propose:
14:15 1. Make a "teacher's session". I could talk to Rosamel and ask for ideas. Maybe some of you can talk to Guzman. Then we could see which next steps to take to make it effective
14:16 2. Coordinate a "program committee" IRC meeting for one of these days soon
14:16 walterbender pflores_: I'll ask Guzman. Presumable on Saturday, as I expect they need to teach on Friday?
14:16 geirea the teacher's session should be really about communication between teachers and developers
14:16 pflores_ walterbender: No, they're not working this week because of Carnival
14:17 geirea: +1
14:18 walterbender OK. I'll email Guzman. when do you want to meet re the program?
14:19 geirea friday morning?
14:19 pflores_ geirea: I think aa can't
14:19 Thursday afternoon?
14:20 walterbender pflores_: works for me, as long as it is afternoon EST (so after 15 for you)
14:21 pflores_ 19 Uy time - 16 EST?
14:22 walterbender: could you stand an IRC in spanish?
14:22 geirea i might be a bit late but you can start without me
14:22 pflores_ (I don't know how is it your spanish at this point)
14:23 walterbender pflores_: /join #sugar-meeting-es
14:23 pflores_: spanish is fine :)
14:24 pflores_ great!
14:24 aa: podr
14:25 geirea guys, i have to go, we'll talk tomorrow then
14:25 pflores_ ok!
14:25 geirea bye
14:26 pflores_ I'll send an invitation mail to the committee
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19:12 aa walterbender, pflores_: sorry for missing the meeting
19:12 walterbender aa: np
19:12 aa power has been out all day :/
19:12 walterbender we meet again tomorrow afternoon
19:12 aa great, I'll be here
19:12 reads backlog
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21:35 dogi <meeting> ciao italia
21:35 <meeting> dogi meeting mk8_ valhalla
21:35 <meeting> ciao italia
21:36 meeting does not bring this to other channels
21:36 meeting dogi: Error: "does" is not a valid command.
21:36 dogi lol
21:36 bingo meeting
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