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#sugar-meeting, 2011-03-06

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15:00 garycmartin #startmeeting
15:00 meeting Meeting started Sun Mar  6 15:00:00 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:00 silbe do we want to wait for Christian?
15:01 garycmartin Hi all, I'm not sure if Christian can make it today, he's had a busy week at TED and wanted to postpone until next week when he'll have some more mockup work completed.
15:01 silbe ok
15:01 garycmartin I was wondering if we can do some quick house keeping without him?
15:01 silbe +1
15:02 FGrose Is his .pdf from last week available?
15:03 garycmartin silbe: I wanted to run through all your agenda additions and clarify/order them a little (think some were closed via email threads, some other seem a little on the technical side).
15:03 FGrose: I can email it to you, thought he posted it to the dev list?
15:03 silbe garycmartin: sounds good to me. I also have some news re. "desktop effects" (e.g. flip over windows for metadata editing).
15:04 FGrose garycmartin: please do.
15:04 garycmartin FGrose: saw you banner add to the meeting page and wondered what you had missed ;-)
15:04 silbe garycmartin: the attachment didn't get through because it was too big
15:04 we should probably upload the file to the wiki instead
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15:05 christianmarcsch hi
15:05 silbe christianmarcsch: welcome!
15:05 garycmartin silbe: aaha! I think Christian likes to bounce ideas via email before hitting the wiki, the wiki does tend to clutter up otherwise.
15:05 christianmarcsch silbe: thanks!
15:05 garycmartin christianmarcsch: Hi, you made it :-)
15:05 christianmarcsch +1 to bouncing ideas :)
15:06 garycmartin: yes, i thought i'd check in!
15:06 silbe garycmartin: good idea in general, the problem is that sugar-devel has about 500 subscribers and some of them might not have a cheap internet connection...
15:06 christianmarcsch silbe: is this about the file attachments?
15:07 silbe christianmarcsch: yep, about the pdf you sent last week. It didn't get through to sugar-devel, so we should probably upload it to the wiki so others can see it as well.
15:07 christianmarcsch silbe: i noticed that the email bounced...
15:08 garycmartin christianmarcsch: yea, FGrose missed the attachment. I've just emailed it to him directly.
15:08 christianmarcsch garycmartin: thanks!
15:08 FGrose Thanks, I got it.
15:08 garycmartin fab
15:08 christianmarcsch last time, we had talked about a third approach using the frame
15:09 i'm still working on a comp, since I just got back from a week on the road
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15:09 garycmartin #topic Quick housekeeping run through current agenda items
15:10 silbe #link https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]ign_Team/Meetings
15:11 garycmartin silbe: let me fire quickly through some of your items and try and clarify, goal is not to resolve the actual item, just clarify the items for future discussion.
15:11 silbe garycmartin: go ahead
15:12 garycmartin "Journal backup UI" are you looking for feedback on your Restore and Backup activities, or the more general issue of backing up Journal entries from Sugar?
15:13 silbe: I understand you took the Activity route so that folks running old Sugar releases could make use of them?
15:14 silbe garycmartin: both. Short term I'd like some ideas for how to improve the two activities (they're rather bare bones and not exactly user friendly at the moment). I'd also like a medium to long term vision how backups should work in Sugar.
15:14 garycmartin silbe: where as Dextrose have integrated Journal backup directly into the Journal.
15:14 silbe garycmartin: exactly. The activities run on all versions of Sugar. You can even do a downgrade.
15:15 garycmartin silbe: are your backup formats compatible with the backups from Dextrose?
15:15 silbe garycmartin: yup, plus the school server also supports backups in some way, though I still haven't seen the UI for it yet.
15:16 garycmartin: nop, Dextrose makes a low-level file system snapshot. That also implies you can't do a downgrade.
15:17 garycmartin: XS, Dextrose and Backup/Restore all use different formats AFAIK
15:18 garycmartin silbe: My faint recollection of Schoolserver backups is that it is just a backup solution, no restore, and no user exposed UI.
15:18 walterbender needs to go off-line for a few minutes... hopefully back in a moment.
15:19 silbe I think the XS uses a format similar to Dextrose for the backup, and allows users to download (single-entry) JEBs for restoring content. Backup/Restore use multi-entry JEBs.
15:20 garycmartin silbe: XS, ah so it's a web download via moodle?
15:22 silbe: OK, so lots of issues ;-)
15:22 silbe #link http://activities.sugarlabs.or[…]/sugar/addon/4208 DataManager activity that shows Journal entries on the local machine and on the school server
15:22 garycmartin: I think so, yes.
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15:25 garycmartin silbe: OK. Think we have enough to flesh out and clarify that agenda item, next! :-)
15:25 silbe garycmartin: I think short term the activities are the way to go because they work on any version of Sugar. For medium to long term work I'd like some good vision that we can work towards.
15:25 ah, the next one is our old favourite: Resume vs. Start New
15:26 garycmartin No, "Journal entries on external media", I'm driving down yours first ;-)
15:26 silbe ok :)
15:27 garycmartin silbe: Did this one not get resolved via an email thread on sugar-devel?
15:27 silbe I should move that item further down the list or maybe even remove it. It depends on getting feedback from real users.
15:28 we decided on what to do for 0.92. Depending on user feedback, we can revise that decision for 0.94+.
15:29 I don't think we should discuss it in the Design Team meeting anytime soon. I just didn't want to forget about it.
15:29 satellit_ any chance to Change the <==(Back) button on the initial sugar screen to <==(Change Name)
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15:29 silbe satellit_: ah, right, sorry I forgot to add it to the agenda. It's an interesting idea.
15:30 satellit_ : )
15:30 christianmarcsch satellit_: can you explain the idea?
15:30 silbe #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]thread.html#30239
15:30 garycmartin silbe: should this item then come off the agenda? I must admit I have heaps of "to do sometime" notes scattered all over the place, I think the agenda needs to not be that place.
15:30 silbe garycmartin: +1
15:31 garycmartin silbe: How about putting an ideas/todo/future section on your wiki home page?
15:32 satellit_ many sugar distros start on the chose color screen. Especiall Trisquel VirtualBox 4.1-sugar   ==> (done) makes sense but people do not know to <==(back) to change the name
15:32 silbe garycmartin: I already have. Adding the item there might be a good idea, yeah.
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15:33 garycmartin silbe: fab, OK will drop this one off the agenda when I next re-edit.
15:34 OK next! "Future topics (missing information)"
15:34 christianmarcsch satellit_: thanks for clarifying
15:34 satellit_ yw
15:36 silbe garycmartin: virtual keyboard support is probably something we should discuss during the physical meeting for touch screen support
15:37 garycmartin: same with "tablet" (in the sense of "device with just touch screen and no physical keyboard") support
15:39 #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]March/030305.html Wade Brainerd et al. started to work on graphics tablet support
15:40 (graphics tablets are usually used as a pure pointing device, not replacing the keyboard)
15:41 garycmartin silbe: Just trying to focus the realtime meetings on things we need to cover in realtime. Much of this would be better done via email, and just final agreement/disagreements made here if needed.
15:42 silbe garycmartin: if we can actually get something done async, that's perfectly fine with me of course.
15:44 garycmartin silbe: well, we stall out on most of these in realtime irc as well ;-)
15:44 silbe garycmartin: good point :-/
15:45 BTW, are any of you planning to be at the upcoming Sugar Camp in Uruguay?
15:46 garycmartin OK, well that's me with the house keeping. I'll take a run through the open agenda in the next few days and try to tidy up.
15:46 christianmarcsch silbe: hmm, i'd love to but not sure how i'd be able to
15:46 silbe: when is it?
15:47 garycmartin #topic Open floor
15:47 silbe christianmarcsch: there were several dates open for discussion, but personally I'm only going to make it if it's around May 5-7 (can't afford to fly in a second time).
15:47 garycmartin: great, thanks!
15:47 christianmarcsch silbe: i see. yes, that may be difficult for me, but i'll keep in the back of my head
15:48 garycmartin silbe: Little chance of me getting to any of those places/dates.
15:48 FGrose link: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Uruguay_Summit_2011
15:48 link: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Conozco_Uruguay_Tour
15:48 silbe ok, too bad. One of the proposed topics was tablet support (i.e. touchscreen-only input)
15:49 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Camp_Q2_2011
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15:49 silbe #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Uruguay_Summit_2011
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15:51 silbe christianmarcsch, garycmartin: maybe we can lay the technical foundations during the Sugar Camp and do the design work during a meeting in Germany or UK later.
15:51 christianmarcsch silbe: that makes sense, and it would be great to meetup later in the year!
15:52 silbe I'm not sure how much we'll get done in the little time available during Sugar Camp anyway
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15:52 FGrose link: (last week's) http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/T[…]l_anytime#Mockups
15:52 garycmartin silbe: sounds fair.
15:53 Do folks have any specific design topics they'd like some input on for the last 10min?
15:54 christianmarcsch FGrose: thanks for adding that!
15:54 walterbender_ 8c
15:54 I am fg
15:54 silbe I'd like to mention that I've talked to jnettlet and we might be able to make some "desktop effects" like flipping over a window (for metadata editing) or scrolling windows out on one side and in on another (Journal list view vs. details view) work.
15:55 christianmarcsch silbe: that sounds great!
15:55 garycmartin silbe: fab, I was also playing with compositing this week...
15:56 christianmarcsch silbe: keep us posted. it would be nice to incorporate some more sophisticated transitions
15:56 garycmartin I could happily make alpha windows to dim out other elements with compositing enabled ;-)
15:57 silbe +1 I think it would help a lot with resolving the potential confusion from context switches (which came up as a reason for not doing things a certain way).
15:57 FGrose Do we have an interface for a versioned datastore in the works?
15:58 garycmartin FGrose: yes, silbe has a few mockups I think.
15:58 FGrose Apple Lion is about to release their enhanced Time Machine
15:58 silbe garycmartin: I'm not sure alpha blending would well on the XO-1.5 :)
15:59 garycmartin FGrose: Yea, I was very curious to see how they are dealing with the UI to see past auto saved versions :-)
15:59 silbe are there any screenshots yet? I'd love to take a peek.
16:00 FGrose What is Sugar's strategic plan for versioned datastores?
16:00 garycmartin Interesting just how many Lion features sound like Sugar, you just resume application, no saving.
16:00 silbe: http://www.apple.com/macosx/lion/
16:01 christianmarcsch garycmartin: that is no accident... we were ahead of the times :)
16:02 garycmartin christianmarcsch: I know, that's why I was interested in the first instance! Pity we seemed to drift quite far from reaching out design goals.
16:03 silbe FGrose: not sure what exactly a "strategic plan" would encompass, but I expect basic version support to land in 0.94. The reason it didn't land in 0.92 was so OLPC and AC could both base their upcoming releases on 0.92.
16:03 christianmarcsch garycmartin: i hear you...
16:04 FGrose silbe: I seem to remember OLPC funding some btrfs work as a path to VD.
16:04 silbe garycmartin: thx for the link
16:04 satellit_ VirtualBox exports are a "time Machine" also  :) for sugar VB4 reimport one of known date and you are back
16:05 silbe FGrose: file system level versioning is nice research work, but not more IMO. Besides I don't think most users should be exposed to the oddities of a hierarchical file system.
16:06 FGrose: I have a working implementation for version support in the data store and been using it for a long time now. In some respects it's even more reliable than the current mainline version.
16:07 FGrose I wondering about the engineering design thoughts, and how they may have evolved.
16:09 garycmartin I'd like to wrap up the design meeting if folks are ok with that. Hopefully next week we'll have more mockups to cover, and perhaps folks can bring up topics on the mail list for design items that specifically interest them.
16:10 FGrose silbe: I know you have been a leader on this. I guess, perhaps the question should be posed to Chris Ball.
16:10 silbe FGrose: they have evolved quite a bit since the first file system with version support (TENEX, ~1972). Research is still ongoing.
16:11 garycmartin: +1
16:11 FGrose: which question exactly? What would you like to know? (your questions were rather open-ended, so they're hard to answer)
16:12 FGrose endmeeting +1
16:12 christianmarcsch Folks, I'm going to have to leave, but should we all reconvene next week? I'll hopefully then have the frame mocks to share
16:12 garycmartin OK, thanks all, sorry it was more about house keeping this week. Hopefully will help us have a tight/clean agenda for next week!
16:12 Same time next week OK for you christianmarcsch ?
16:13 silbe garycmartin: thanks for tackling the necessary house keeping!
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16:13 christianmarcsch garycmartin: absolutely
16:13 garycmartin: and thanks for keeping us on-track!
16:13 garycmartin See you all 15:00 UTC Sunday 13th
16:14 #endmeeting
16:14 meeting Meeting ended Sun Mar  6 16:14:00 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:14 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-06T15:00:00.html
16:14 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-03-06T15:00:00
16:14 silbe ok, cu next week and thanks for continuing to participate!
16:14 christianmarcsch see you soon!
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16:16 FGrose silbe: Just trying to get perspective on priorities or windows of opportunity, given our limited resources.
16:18 silbe FGrose: FWIW https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Sascha_silbe contains my current vision, though without priorities attached (with I gather is what you're most interested in)
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16:20 silbe FGrose: my high-level priority is taking advantage of the work that other communities (especially Gnome) do, exactly because our own resources are limited. That's why I'm going to replace as much "proprietary" Sugar stuff with (pseudo-)standards based solutions as possible.
16:20 FGrose silbe: Thanks.
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16:23 silbe FGrose: in much more words I explained the same here: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ruary/001067.html
16:23 FGrose: maybe even enough words to call it a strategic plan. ;)
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16:25 FGrose Yes. I liked that post; but feedback seems delayed.  Perhaps by all the impending work and systems.
16:26 silbe FGrose: thanks for https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]source_monitoring , BTW! It's awesome!
16:27 FGrose Thanks for the compliment. It seems to me that Sugar design is core to Sugar Labs and deserves thorough treatment.
16:28 silbe FGrose: most people doing regular work on Sugar these days are paid to care about the day-to-day work, so only few worry about medium to long term (i.e. strategic) work.
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16:30 silbe FGrose: it's definitely the most important aspect, yep. I'm very glad we finally started having Design Team meetings again. We move slowly, but at least somewhat steadily.
16:32 dcorking is meeting over? I had network problems
16:33 FGrose I think we might strive to develop working prototypes for designs (such as within Activities) so that we can better experience their behavior and effect on learning.  For example, with the speaker switch, I'm having second thoughts.
16:34 dcorking: yes, it ended. just some residual thoughts now.
16:35 dcorking: Have you some ideas or questions?
16:35 dcorking ok - I found the logs online, but I do have a question
16:35 silbe dcorking: fire away
16:36 dcorking ok - etoys has a couple of 'shift-click' actions - I am thinking of proposing a 'touch device' patch to replace these with 'touch and hold' or 'touch and drag' ...
16:37 ... does this clash with touch ui ideas that the sugar folks have?
16:39 silbe FGrose: +1 on prototypes ("executable mock-ups"). Too bad alsroot's work on providing a template library for Journal activities got stalled.
16:39 FGrose dcorking: Gary has spoken most about touch interfaces, so post the question, to elicit a wider discussion.. I would say..
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16:40 silbe dcorking: I don't think we have lot of Sugar-specific touch screen UI ideas yet. We're trying to meet some time this year in Germany or UK to work on it.
16:40 dcorking ... you mean garycmartin? i think he has gone offline
16:41 FGrose dcorking: garycmartin, yes. I meant to post to <sugar-devel>
16:41 silbe dcorking: +1 on posting your question on sugar-devel (with links to screenshots if you have some)
16:41 dcorking ok - i'll get on with patching if and when i find time - and we'll discuss the ui at squeakland@squeakland.org  - but I'll pose a link to the thread on sugar-design
16:41 s/pose/post/
16:42 silbe dcorking: sugar-devel, not sugar-design (the latter doesn't exist) - looking forward to your post
16:42 dcorking s/sugar-design/sugar-devel/ oops
16:42 FGrose dcorking: thanks!  Any show of work encourages others.
16:43 dcorking good point FGrose , btw did you see Bert's touch video from last June?
16:44 FGrose dcorking: I did, and am wondering about the state of affairs now that we have so many new tablets about to appear.
16:45 dcorking I don't have an ipad to look at Bert's progress (he is not paid to work on etoys anymore) but I don't think there is any new touch code in etoys trunk
16:46 most etoys projects work without the shift-click actions I want to attack ...
16:46 ... and tablets are fine with a stylus but not finger touch ...
16:48 ...however etoys uses secondary-click a lot (to make a halo) so we also need a consensus on that, and a fix for balloon help)
16:49 silbe dcorking: FWIW, the touch screen devices I've worked with (old generation, no multi-touch) use tap-and-hold for secondary actions (i.e. what right click would be)
16:49 dcorking sorry - no more flooding - http://lists.squeakland.org/pi[…]March/005837.html
16:50 FGrose Touch development in Sugar will probably be lead by OLPC, since they have a touch version of the XO in early design.
16:50 dcorking does OLCC still have resources to do UI design? if so that is great.
16:50 silbe FGrose: yup, can't wait for one of those XO-1.75s to arrive.
16:52 dcorking: I guess OLPC will concentrate on the technical parts (hardware, Xorg, GTK). Haven't heard any rumour regarding OLPC-sponsored touch screen UI work so far.
16:52 FGrose dcorking: looks like you have a leading position!
16:53 dcorking graceful downgrade to single touch would be ideal - both for accessibility, and for gadgets like interactive whiteboards
16:53 FGrose, yup! better start on that wiki report, and figuring out the patch (I bet Bert can do it in his sleep)
16:54 FGrose All the GNU/Linux distributions are probably scrambling now for touch talent.
16:55 dcorking sure - but then the Xorg/Gtk work at maemo is probably a sound foundation
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16:57 FGrose dcorking: Thanks for joining.  Looking forward to more reports.
16:58 dcorking great - your meeting time isn't great for me, but if you don't hear from me on the sugar-devel mailing list in the next few weeks, please ping me
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