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| 15:00 | garycmartin | #startmeeting |
| 15:00 | meeting | Meeting started Sun Mar 6 15:00:00 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 15:00 | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting | |
| 15:00 | silbe | do we want to wait for Christian? |
| 15:01 | garycmartin | Hi all, I'm not sure if Christian can make it today, he's had a busy week at TED and wanted to postpone until next week when he'll have some more mockup work completed. |
| 15:01 | silbe | ok |
| 15:01 | garycmartin | I was wondering if we can do some quick house keeping without him? |
| 15:01 | silbe | +1 |
| 15:02 | FGrose | Is his .pdf from last week available? |
| 15:03 | garycmartin | silbe: I wanted to run through all your agenda additions and clarify/order them a little (think some were closed via email threads, some other seem a little on the technical side). |
| 15:03 | FGrose: I can email it to you, thought he posted it to the dev list? | |
| 15:03 | silbe | garycmartin: sounds good to me. I also have some news re. "desktop effects" (e.g. flip over windows for metadata editing). |
| 15:04 | FGrose | garycmartin: please do. |
| 15:04 | garycmartin | FGrose: saw you banner add to the meeting page and wondered what you had missed ;-) |
| 15:04 | silbe | garycmartin: the attachment didn't get through because it was too big |
| 15:04 | we should probably upload the file to the wiki instead | |
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| 15:05 | christianmarcsch | hi |
| 15:05 | silbe | christianmarcsch: welcome! |
| 15:05 | garycmartin | silbe: aaha! I think Christian likes to bounce ideas via email before hitting the wiki, the wiki does tend to clutter up otherwise. |
| 15:05 | christianmarcsch | silbe: thanks! |
| 15:05 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: Hi, you made it :-) |
| 15:05 | christianmarcsch | +1 to bouncing ideas :) |
| 15:06 | garycmartin: yes, i thought i'd check in! | |
| 15:06 | silbe | garycmartin: good idea in general, the problem is that sugar-devel has about 500 subscribers and some of them might not have a cheap internet connection... |
| 15:06 | christianmarcsch | silbe: is this about the file attachments? |
| 15:07 | silbe | christianmarcsch: yep, about the pdf you sent last week. It didn't get through to sugar-devel, so we should probably upload it to the wiki so others can see it as well. |
| 15:07 | christianmarcsch | silbe: i noticed that the email bounced... |
| 15:08 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: yea, FGrose missed the attachment. I've just emailed it to him directly. |
| 15:08 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: thanks! |
| 15:08 | FGrose | Thanks, I got it. |
| 15:08 | garycmartin | fab |
| 15:08 | christianmarcsch | last time, we had talked about a third approach using the frame |
| 15:09 | i'm still working on a comp, since I just got back from a week on the road | |
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| 15:09 | garycmartin | #topic Quick housekeeping run through current agenda items |
| 15:10 | silbe | #link https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]ign_Team/Meetings |
| 15:11 | garycmartin | silbe: let me fire quickly through some of your items and try and clarify, goal is not to resolve the actual item, just clarify the items for future discussion. |
| 15:11 | silbe | garycmartin: go ahead |
| 15:12 | garycmartin | "Journal backup UI" are you looking for feedback on your Restore and Backup activities, or the more general issue of backing up Journal entries from Sugar? |
| 15:13 | silbe: I understand you took the Activity route so that folks running old Sugar releases could make use of them? | |
| 15:14 | silbe | garycmartin: both. Short term I'd like some ideas for how to improve the two activities (they're rather bare bones and not exactly user friendly at the moment). I'd also like a medium to long term vision how backups should work in Sugar. |
| 15:14 | garycmartin | silbe: where as Dextrose have integrated Journal backup directly into the Journal. |
| 15:14 | silbe | garycmartin: exactly. The activities run on all versions of Sugar. You can even do a downgrade. |
| 15:15 | garycmartin | silbe: are your backup formats compatible with the backups from Dextrose? |
| 15:15 | silbe | garycmartin: yup, plus the school server also supports backups in some way, though I still haven't seen the UI for it yet. |
| 15:16 | garycmartin: nop, Dextrose makes a low-level file system snapshot. That also implies you can't do a downgrade. | |
| 15:17 | garycmartin: XS, Dextrose and Backup/Restore all use different formats AFAIK | |
| 15:18 | garycmartin | silbe: My faint recollection of Schoolserver backups is that it is just a backup solution, no restore, and no user exposed UI. |
| 15:18 | walterbender | needs to go off-line for a few minutes... hopefully back in a moment. |
| 15:19 | silbe | I think the XS uses a format similar to Dextrose for the backup, and allows users to download (single-entry) JEBs for restoring content. Backup/Restore use multi-entry JEBs. |
| 15:20 | garycmartin | silbe: XS, ah so it's a web download via moodle? |
| 15:22 | silbe: OK, so lots of issues ;-) | |
| 15:22 | silbe | #link http://activities.sugarlabs.or[…]/sugar/addon/4208 DataManager activity that shows Journal entries on the local machine and on the school server |
| 15:22 | garycmartin: I think so, yes. | |
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| 15:25 | garycmartin | silbe: OK. Think we have enough to flesh out and clarify that agenda item, next! :-) |
| 15:25 | silbe | garycmartin: I think short term the activities are the way to go because they work on any version of Sugar. For medium to long term work I'd like some good vision that we can work towards. |
| 15:25 | ah, the next one is our old favourite: Resume vs. Start New | |
| 15:26 | garycmartin | No, "Journal entries on external media", I'm driving down yours first ;-) |
| 15:26 | silbe | ok :) |
| 15:27 | garycmartin | silbe: Did this one not get resolved via an email thread on sugar-devel? |
| 15:27 | silbe | I should move that item further down the list or maybe even remove it. It depends on getting feedback from real users. |
| 15:28 | we decided on what to do for 0.92. Depending on user feedback, we can revise that decision for 0.94+. | |
| 15:29 | I don't think we should discuss it in the Design Team meeting anytime soon. I just didn't want to forget about it. | |
| 15:29 | satellit_ | any chance to Change the <==(Back) button on the initial sugar screen to <==(Change Name) |
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| 15:29 | silbe | satellit_: ah, right, sorry I forgot to add it to the agenda. It's an interesting idea. |
| 15:30 | satellit_ | : ) |
| 15:30 | christianmarcsch | satellit_: can you explain the idea? |
| 15:30 | silbe | #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]thread.html#30239 |
| 15:30 | garycmartin | silbe: should this item then come off the agenda? I must admit I have heaps of "to do sometime" notes scattered all over the place, I think the agenda needs to not be that place. |
| 15:30 | silbe | garycmartin: +1 |
| 15:31 | garycmartin | silbe: How about putting an ideas/todo/future section on your wiki home page? |
| 15:32 | satellit_ | many sugar distros start on the chose color screen. Especiall Trisquel VirtualBox 4.1-sugar ==> (done) makes sense but people do not know to <==(back) to change the name |
| 15:32 | silbe | garycmartin: I already have. Adding the item there might be a good idea, yeah. |
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| 15:33 | garycmartin | silbe: fab, OK will drop this one off the agenda when I next re-edit. |
| 15:34 | OK next! "Future topics (missing information)" | |
| 15:34 | christianmarcsch | satellit_: thanks for clarifying |
| 15:34 | satellit_ | yw |
| 15:36 | silbe | garycmartin: virtual keyboard support is probably something we should discuss during the physical meeting for touch screen support |
| 15:37 | garycmartin: same with "tablet" (in the sense of "device with just touch screen and no physical keyboard") support | |
| 15:39 | #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]March/030305.html Wade Brainerd et al. started to work on graphics tablet support | |
| 15:40 | (graphics tablets are usually used as a pure pointing device, not replacing the keyboard) | |
| 15:41 | garycmartin | silbe: Just trying to focus the realtime meetings on things we need to cover in realtime. Much of this would be better done via email, and just final agreement/disagreements made here if needed. |
| 15:42 | silbe | garycmartin: if we can actually get something done async, that's perfectly fine with me of course. |
| 15:44 | garycmartin | silbe: well, we stall out on most of these in realtime irc as well ;-) |
| 15:44 | silbe | garycmartin: good point :-/ |
| 15:45 | BTW, are any of you planning to be at the upcoming Sugar Camp in Uruguay? | |
| 15:46 | garycmartin | OK, well that's me with the house keeping. I'll take a run through the open agenda in the next few days and try to tidy up. |
| 15:46 | christianmarcsch | silbe: hmm, i'd love to but not sure how i'd be able to |
| 15:46 | silbe: when is it? | |
| 15:47 | garycmartin | #topic Open floor |
| 15:47 | silbe | christianmarcsch: there were several dates open for discussion, but personally I'm only going to make it if it's around May 5-7 (can't afford to fly in a second time). |
| 15:47 | garycmartin: great, thanks! | |
| 15:47 | christianmarcsch | silbe: i see. yes, that may be difficult for me, but i'll keep in the back of my head |
| 15:48 | garycmartin | silbe: Little chance of me getting to any of those places/dates. |
| 15:48 | FGrose | link: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Uruguay_Summit_2011 |
| 15:48 | link: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Conozco_Uruguay_Tour | |
| 15:48 | silbe | ok, too bad. One of the proposed topics was tablet support (i.e. touchscreen-only input) |
| 15:49 | #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Camp_Q2_2011 | |
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| 15:49 | silbe | #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Uruguay_Summit_2011 |
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| 15:51 | silbe | christianmarcsch, garycmartin: maybe we can lay the technical foundations during the Sugar Camp and do the design work during a meeting in Germany or UK later. |
| 15:51 | christianmarcsch | silbe: that makes sense, and it would be great to meetup later in the year! |
| 15:52 | silbe | I'm not sure how much we'll get done in the little time available during Sugar Camp anyway |
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| 15:52 | FGrose | link: (last week's) http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/T[…]l_anytime#Mockups |
| 15:52 | garycmartin | silbe: sounds fair. |
| 15:53 | Do folks have any specific design topics they'd like some input on for the last 10min? | |
| 15:54 | christianmarcsch | FGrose: thanks for adding that! |
| 15:54 | walterbender_ | 8c |
| 15:54 | I am fg | |
| 15:54 | silbe | I'd like to mention that I've talked to jnettlet and we might be able to make some "desktop effects" like flipping over a window (for metadata editing) or scrolling windows out on one side and in on another (Journal list view vs. details view) work. |
| 15:55 | christianmarcsch | silbe: that sounds great! |
| 15:55 | garycmartin | silbe: fab, I was also playing with compositing this week... |
| 15:56 | christianmarcsch | silbe: keep us posted. it would be nice to incorporate some more sophisticated transitions |
| 15:56 | garycmartin | I could happily make alpha windows to dim out other elements with compositing enabled ;-) |
| 15:57 | silbe | +1 I think it would help a lot with resolving the potential confusion from context switches (which came up as a reason for not doing things a certain way). |
| 15:57 | FGrose | Do we have an interface for a versioned datastore in the works? |
| 15:58 | garycmartin | FGrose: yes, silbe has a few mockups I think. |
| 15:58 | FGrose | Apple Lion is about to release their enhanced Time Machine |
| 15:58 | silbe | garycmartin: I'm not sure alpha blending would well on the XO-1.5 :) |
| 15:59 | garycmartin | FGrose: Yea, I was very curious to see how they are dealing with the UI to see past auto saved versions :-) |
| 15:59 | silbe | are there any screenshots yet? I'd love to take a peek. |
| 16:00 | FGrose | What is Sugar's strategic plan for versioned datastores? |
| 16:00 | garycmartin | Interesting just how many Lion features sound like Sugar, you just resume application, no saving. |
| 16:00 | silbe: http://www.apple.com/macosx/lion/ | |
| 16:01 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: that is no accident... we were ahead of the times :) |
| 16:02 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: I know, that's why I was interested in the first instance! Pity we seemed to drift quite far from reaching out design goals. |
| 16:03 | silbe | FGrose: not sure what exactly a "strategic plan" would encompass, but I expect basic version support to land in 0.94. The reason it didn't land in 0.92 was so OLPC and AC could both base their upcoming releases on 0.92. |
| 16:03 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: i hear you... |
| 16:04 | FGrose | silbe: I seem to remember OLPC funding some btrfs work as a path to VD. |
| 16:04 | silbe | garycmartin: thx for the link |
| 16:04 | satellit_ | VirtualBox exports are a "time Machine" also :) for sugar VB4 reimport one of known date and you are back |
| 16:05 | silbe | FGrose: file system level versioning is nice research work, but not more IMO. Besides I don't think most users should be exposed to the oddities of a hierarchical file system. |
| 16:06 | FGrose: I have a working implementation for version support in the data store and been using it for a long time now. In some respects it's even more reliable than the current mainline version. | |
| 16:07 | FGrose | I wondering about the engineering design thoughts, and how they may have evolved. |
| 16:09 | garycmartin | I'd like to wrap up the design meeting if folks are ok with that. Hopefully next week we'll have more mockups to cover, and perhaps folks can bring up topics on the mail list for design items that specifically interest them. |
| 16:10 | FGrose | silbe: I know you have been a leader on this. I guess, perhaps the question should be posed to Chris Ball. |
| 16:10 | silbe | FGrose: they have evolved quite a bit since the first file system with version support (TENEX, ~1972). Research is still ongoing. |
| 16:11 | garycmartin: +1 | |
| 16:11 | FGrose: which question exactly? What would you like to know? (your questions were rather open-ended, so they're hard to answer) | |
| 16:12 | FGrose | endmeeting +1 |
| 16:12 | christianmarcsch | Folks, I'm going to have to leave, but should we all reconvene next week? I'll hopefully then have the frame mocks to share |
| 16:12 | garycmartin | OK, thanks all, sorry it was more about house keeping this week. Hopefully will help us have a tight/clean agenda for next week! |
| 16:12 | Same time next week OK for you christianmarcsch ? | |
| 16:13 | silbe | garycmartin: thanks for tackling the necessary house keeping! |
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| 16:13 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: absolutely |
| 16:13 | garycmartin: and thanks for keeping us on-track! | |
| 16:13 | garycmartin | See you all 15:00 UTC Sunday 13th |
| 16:14 | #endmeeting | |
| 16:14 | meeting | Meeting ended Sun Mar 6 16:14:00 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
| 16:14 | Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-06T15:00:00.html | |
| 16:14 | Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-03-06T15:00:00 | |
| 16:14 | silbe | ok, cu next week and thanks for continuing to participate! |
| 16:14 | christianmarcsch | see you soon! |
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| 16:16 | FGrose | silbe: Just trying to get perspective on priorities or windows of opportunity, given our limited resources. |
| 16:18 | silbe | FGrose: FWIW https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Sascha_silbe contains my current vision, though without priorities attached (with I gather is what you're most interested in) |
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| 16:20 | silbe | FGrose: my high-level priority is taking advantage of the work that other communities (especially Gnome) do, exactly because our own resources are limited. That's why I'm going to replace as much "proprietary" Sugar stuff with (pseudo-)standards based solutions as possible. |
| 16:20 | FGrose | silbe: Thanks. |
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| 16:23 | silbe | FGrose: in much more words I explained the same here: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ruary/001067.html |
| 16:23 | FGrose: maybe even enough words to call it a strategic plan. ;) | |
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| 16:25 | FGrose | Yes. I liked that post; but feedback seems delayed. Perhaps by all the impending work and systems. |
| 16:26 | silbe | FGrose: thanks for https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]source_monitoring , BTW! It's awesome! |
| 16:27 | FGrose | Thanks for the compliment. It seems to me that Sugar design is core to Sugar Labs and deserves thorough treatment. |
| 16:28 | silbe | FGrose: most people doing regular work on Sugar these days are paid to care about the day-to-day work, so only few worry about medium to long term (i.e. strategic) work. |
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| 16:30 | silbe | FGrose: it's definitely the most important aspect, yep. I'm very glad we finally started having Design Team meetings again. We move slowly, but at least somewhat steadily. |
| 16:32 | dcorking | is meeting over? I had network problems |
| 16:33 | FGrose | I think we might strive to develop working prototypes for designs (such as within Activities) so that we can better experience their behavior and effect on learning. For example, with the speaker switch, I'm having second thoughts. |
| 16:34 | dcorking: yes, it ended. just some residual thoughts now. | |
| 16:35 | dcorking: Have you some ideas or questions? | |
| 16:35 | dcorking | ok - I found the logs online, but I do have a question |
| 16:35 | silbe | dcorking: fire away |
| 16:36 | dcorking | ok - etoys has a couple of 'shift-click' actions - I am thinking of proposing a 'touch device' patch to replace these with 'touch and hold' or 'touch and drag' ... |
| 16:37 | ... does this clash with touch ui ideas that the sugar folks have? | |
| 16:39 | silbe | FGrose: +1 on prototypes ("executable mock-ups"). Too bad alsroot's work on providing a template library for Journal activities got stalled. |
| 16:39 | FGrose | dcorking: Gary has spoken most about touch interfaces, so post the question, to elicit a wider discussion.. I would say.. |
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| 16:40 | silbe | dcorking: I don't think we have lot of Sugar-specific touch screen UI ideas yet. We're trying to meet some time this year in Germany or UK to work on it. |
| 16:40 | dcorking | ... you mean garycmartin? i think he has gone offline |
| 16:41 | FGrose | dcorking: garycmartin, yes. I meant to post to <sugar-devel> |
| 16:41 | silbe | dcorking: +1 on posting your question on sugar-devel (with links to screenshots if you have some) |
| 16:41 | dcorking | ok - i'll get on with patching if and when i find time - and we'll discuss the ui at squeaklandsqueakland.org - but I'll pose a link to the thread on sugar-design |
| 16:41 | s/pose/post/ | |
| 16:42 | silbe | dcorking: sugar-devel, not sugar-design (the latter doesn't exist) - looking forward to your post |
| 16:42 | dcorking | s/sugar-design/sugar-devel/ oops |
| 16:42 | FGrose | dcorking: thanks! Any show of work encourages others. |
| 16:43 | dcorking | good point FGrose , btw did you see Bert's touch video from last June? |
| 16:44 | FGrose | dcorking: I did, and am wondering about the state of affairs now that we have so many new tablets about to appear. |
| 16:45 | dcorking | I don't have an ipad to look at Bert's progress (he is not paid to work on etoys anymore) but I don't think there is any new touch code in etoys trunk |
| 16:46 | most etoys projects work without the shift-click actions I want to attack ... | |
| 16:46 | ... and tablets are fine with a stylus but not finger touch ... | |
| 16:48 | ...however etoys uses secondary-click a lot (to make a halo) so we also need a consensus on that, and a fix for balloon help) | |
| 16:49 | silbe | dcorking: FWIW, the touch screen devices I've worked with (old generation, no multi-touch) use tap-and-hold for secondary actions (i.e. what right click would be) |
| 16:49 | dcorking | sorry - no more flooding - http://lists.squeakland.org/pi[…]March/005837.html |
| 16:50 | FGrose | Touch development in Sugar will probably be lead by OLPC, since they have a touch version of the XO in early design. |
| 16:50 | dcorking | does OLCC still have resources to do UI design? if so that is great. |
| 16:50 | silbe | FGrose: yup, can't wait for one of those XO-1.75s to arrive. |
| 16:52 | dcorking: I guess OLPC will concentrate on the technical parts (hardware, Xorg, GTK). Haven't heard any rumour regarding OLPC-sponsored touch screen UI work so far. | |
| 16:52 | FGrose | dcorking: looks like you have a leading position! |
| 16:53 | dcorking | graceful downgrade to single touch would be ideal - both for accessibility, and for gadgets like interactive whiteboards |
| 16:53 | FGrose, yup! better start on that wiki report, and figuring out the patch (I bet Bert can do it in his sleep) | |
| 16:54 | FGrose | All the GNU/Linux distributions are probably scrambling now for touch talent. |
| 16:55 | dcorking | sure - but then the Xorg/Gtk work at maemo is probably a sound foundation |
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| 16:57 | FGrose | dcorking: Thanks for joining. Looking forward to more reports. |
| 16:58 | dcorking | great - your meeting time isn't great for me, but if you don't hear from me on the sugar-devel mailing list in the next few weeks, please ping me |
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