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#sugar-meeting, 2011-02-27

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16:01 garycmartin Design Team meeting ping, Walter's going to be a little late, we OK to hang on a short while?
16:01 silbe garycmartin: fine with me
16:02 I don't see Christian yet anyway...
16:02 garycmartin silbe: Hi! Yes, no Christian yet either :)
16:03 silbe garycmartin: just ping we when we're about to start :)
16:03 garycmartin silbe: Will do!
16:03 silbe garycmartin: thx!
16:05 christianmarcsch <christianmarcsch!~christian@cpe-24-193-242-220.nyc.res.rr.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:05 garycmartin christianmarcsch: Hi.
16:06 christianmarcsch garycmartin: good morning!
16:07 garycmartin christianmarcsch: silbe is here, but I think Walter is going to be a little late, you OK hanging on for a short while or are you short on time?
16:07 christianmarcsch i can hang on for a few minutes
16:08 garycmartin christianmarcsch: silbe: OK lets give Walter until quarter past and then start.
16:08 silbe ok
16:08 christianmarcsch garycmartin: sounds good
16:08 silbe: did you get the pdf i sent out?
16:09 silbe christianmarcsch: unless you sent it just a few minutes ago, I probably didn't get it.
16:09 christianmarcsch silbe: forwarding now...
16:11 garycmartin goes to make a cup of tea, back in a moment
16:16 #startmeeting
16:16 meeting Meeting started Sun Feb 27 16:16:04 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:16 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
16:16 silbe christianmarcsch: got it now, thanks!
16:16 christianmarcsch silbe: great!
16:16 garycmartin #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Meetings
16:17 That list of proposals seems to get longer each time I refresh that page ;-)
16:17 Lets skip the first one until Walter gets here
16:17 silbe whistles
16:18 garycmartin #topic Replace Naming Alert
16:20 So, looking at christianmarcsch pdf mockup, any thoughts silbe?
16:22 silbe garycmartin: option #2 looks interesting. #1 is a model dialog. ;)
16:23 garycmartin christianmarcsch: I mentioned via email one issue with your Option 2 (where the Activity secondary toolbar is extended into a palette that covers the whole canvas with a details view). To recap, the secondary Activity toolbar is used by several activities to hold extra import/export like features, we would need to find a home for these in the new treatment.
16:24 Option 2 also has one possible interaction issue that might catch folks out. I have the same issue with some mockups I've been doing on a Memorize toolbar replacement.
16:27 In the option 2 case, mousing over the toolbar icon and triggering the delayed pop-up will cover all the canvas, so if the user mouses down to make some changes the view needs to stay active. The user must mouse into a different part of the primary toolbar to make the palette go away...
16:28 christianmarcsch garycmartin: thanks for recapping
16:28 garycmartin: as per the issue you point out, i think we could either handle that in a separate toolbar, or find a way to integrate the functionality in a single screen
16:29 dogi has quit IRC
16:29 christianmarcsch i actually like the combination of the two options
16:29 it feels intuitive to offer this functionality right from inside the activity
16:29 and when invoked elsewhere, it would appear in a modal dialog
16:30 but the functionality could essentially be the same in both cases
16:30 garycmartin silbe: what is you objection again to a modal dialogue (option 1). It seems no worse than getting stuck on the Journal details view.
16:31 christianmarcsch: why no invoke the same activity modal dialogue (option 1) from Activities as well? Using a toolbar button in the current secondary toolbar (where Keep currently goes).
16:32 silbe garycmartin: modal dialogs are tricky to get right. What happens if you switch to a different view and press the Journal key? Or if you click on the window contents behind the dialog?
16:32 christianmarcsch garycmartin: that is definitely a possibility, though i think option 2 is more direct
16:32 silbe: if you click on the window contents, we could have it close the dialog
16:32 silbe garycmartin: a minor issue is that it doesn't utilise all available space
16:33 christianmarcsch: easy to imagine, but unfortunately not quite as easy to implement...
16:33 christianmarcsch so, i thought about a larger hover palette option, but in the end it didn't seem feasible
16:33 because we are trying to avoid nested menus
16:33 garycmartin silbe: I see the current details view much like a Journal modal, confusing when you switch back to the Journal from elsewhere as it has no visual context. At least the real modal would show some background ;-)
16:33 christianmarcsch these were the only other options that came to my mind
16:34 silbe garycmartin: good point, though it would be nicer to have a more general solution to this because home view etc. have the same issue ("layout" vs. list view)
16:35 garycmartin silbe: Is there any way yet to get the tinted background effect? That's always been pretty critical to my eye to make modals work visually.
16:35 silbe garycmartin: I don't know of any easy one.
16:36 garycmartin: maybe with clutter etc. it's possible, but we can't rely on 3D acceleration.
16:36 satellit_ rotating triangle ala apple ? click on triangle for sub menus that pop up to right and disappear on 2nd click
16:36 garycmartin silbe: Can we do a pixel dither of solid black and transparent pixels?
16:38 silbe: Or how about copying the windows edge content and pasting them in (tinted darker) to the edges of a full screen dialogue, fake the transparency?
16:39 christianmarcsch satellit_: an interesting though, but one of the principles we are trying to uphold is to avoid nested hierarchies
16:39 silbe garycmartin: TBH I don't know. We already ship a GTK engine, maybe it's possible to enhance it to support this. benzea might know.
16:40 garycmartin silbe: can you say a little more about your "layout" vs list view thoughts? I didn't quite get what you wanted a general solution for.
16:40 silbe garycmartin: but from a quick glance at the code it would probably be quite a bit of work.
16:41 garycmartin: the Home View currently has a list view and a view that uses one of several "layouts" (Ring, Spiral, "Random", etc.). In the long run I'd like the Neighborhood and the Group View to do the same.
16:42 christianmarcsch silbe: yes, and we had designs for a list view in neighborhood
16:43 garycmartin christianmarcsch: FWIW we've had feedback that folks get the home list view confused with the Journal view. There have been noises around dropping the list view altogether...
16:44 christianmarcsch garycmartin: yes, that's a good point. i can see where the confusion may come from, and now that we have a more extensible ring/spiral view we could probably drop list view. but i still think it would be useful for neighborhood...
16:45 garycmartin christianmarcsch: Example, kids deleting actual activities rather than unwanted Journal entries by mistake. That's why we have (multiple ARRRGH!) ways for deployments to lock activities from being deleted by the UI.
16:45 silbe garycmartin: if the Journal supported execute-in-place, the activities-list vs. Journal issue would be a bit easier to solve. But due to space constraints, we want users to be able to install an activity and delete the bundle without uninstalling the activity. :-/
16:47 garycmartin silbe: I was thinking we might want 'fake' Journal entries that represent installed activities, and perhaps library bundles (if that concept does not go away).
16:47 silbe christianmarcsch: The current views might still not be flexible enough to drop the list view (not that I think it's a good idea in the first place). We show "non-starred" activities only in the list view.
16:48 garycmartin: +1, that was my proposal at Sugar Camp Paris as well.
16:48 garycmartin silbe: lol, wow that seems like ages ago, I feel old :-)
16:49 christianmarcsch silbe, garycmartin: so what do we think as far as the two options?
16:50 silbe garycmartin: if we had execute-in-place, then we'd only need to show "virtual" entries for the system-installed activities. With the distinction between installed activity and activity bundle (rather than the "installed activity" being just a cached version of the bundle) it gets trickier.
16:50 christianmarcsch silbe, garycmartin: technical issues aside, what do you think? do they seem like the right strategy?
16:50 garycmartin christianmarcsch: I think both feel like good directions to move in.
16:51 silbe christianmarcsch: as my might have noticed ;) I have a general dislike for modal dialogs (fullscreen modes like the current details view are fine however), so I'd prefer something more along the lines of the second option.
16:52 satellit_ it would be nice to have way to select .xo or installed version eg Browse120 but want to use older installed browse 119 or visa versa
16:52 /usr/shared/sugar location vs journal
16:53 garycmartin christianmarcsch: regarding the modal that silbe so despises ;-) ... As the detail view icons are down the right edge of the Journal, how about they act to pop-up the full screen palette, projecting it left across the screen?
16:54 silbe garycmartin: I'm not sure I follow you, but if I do I like your idea.
16:54 christianmarcsch garycmartin: that's something we might try perhaps
16:55 silbe garycmartin: I'm imagining "scrolling" the Journal list view out of the screen and the details view into the screen.
16:55 christianmarcsch only thing is, having a modal dialog would allow you to invoke the detail view anywhere, including home and neighborhood
16:55 that might be a nice feature to enable
16:56 silbe: to understand why you don't like dialogs... (and technical issues aside) is it because of the reduced amount of space?
16:56 silbe christianmarcsch: and that's exactly the kind of thing we're having a bad record of getting right. The key phrase dialog still doesn't work properly. :-/
16:56 christianmarcsch: reduced space is just a minor issue - something I wouldn't worry about at all except on XOs.
16:57 christianmarcsch silbe: i agree--not an issue for me
16:57 silbe: but so then, what is it about dialogs? is it a technical issue in the end?
16:58 garycmartin christianmarcsch: I think the dialogue seems a slightly better UI than the fullscreen palette.
17:00 silbe christianmarcsch: The problematic part is interactions with other parts of the system. Partly because it's apparently hard to implement right, and partly because as a user I've been annoyed by modal dialogs once too often. If it's a mode then the interaction is clear: I can do something in it or leave it. If it's a dialog, I still see everything else, but am not able to interact with it (that's the "modal" part of modal dialog).
17:00 garycmartin christianmarcsch: (though I have no objections to the fullscreen palette other than a note of warning on 1) positioning for extra custom Activity tools 2) pop-up lock behaviour and how the user escapes from a fullscreen obviously)
17:01 christianmarcsch silbe: true what you say, although i'd counter by saying that the edge around the dialog keeps you in context of where you came from. it may only be visual, but it's an important aspect that will help people orient themselves
17:01 silbe christianmarcsch: it's especially a problem once you use a window manager that doesn't work like Windows. Sugar currently hardcodes metacity, but in the long run I'd like the user to be able to choose a window manager that fits their needs ("no ceiling").
17:02 christianmarcsch: point taken
17:02 garycmartin silbe: seeing 'everything else' is good for visual context, but it should be dimmed/greyed to really work well.
17:02 silbe christianmarcsch: though I could imagine different ways to establish context than continuing to show some parts of the list view.
17:03 christianmarcsch the problem i'm having is that i don't know what other options there may be that feel integral to the sugar ui, without having to invent completely new UI elements
17:03 garycmartin silbe: Oooh, how about some naughty palette swizziling colour trick to darken the window that should be behind a modal dialogue?
17:04 silbe garycmartin: +1. We'll need to look into "desktop effects" some time - there's a lot of room for improvement re. establishing context. Maybe there's a way to use some effects even without 3D acceleration.
17:04 christianmarcsch let me give you my 2c on what i think the ideal solution would be
17:04 silbe all ears
17:04 christianmarcsch instead of the modal dialog, we would use the fullscreen palette inside the activity
17:04 but make it something that you could get to/invoke from anywhere in the UI through a hover palette
17:05 whether you are in journal, home view, or neighborhood
17:05 the reason i think this makes sense, is that the properties are tied to the activity
17:05 they are like the "behind-the-scenes" view of an activity
17:05 that would address silbe's concerns around the modal dialog
17:06 so in other words,
17:06 when you select "view detail" in journal (or home/neighborhood),
17:06 you'd be transported to the fullscreen palette view of that activity
17:07 <end>
17:08 garycmartin christianmarcsch: that seems like something the Frame should be doing then, if you want to access the current Activity details view from everywhere.
17:08 silbe christianmarcsch: I like that in general, but a) it requires the activity to run, which for some activities (Browse, Open Office) is not a good idea and b) it would pose problems with activities that don't use the Python framework - e.g. EToys. So we'd still need a details view in the Journal that works independently.
17:08 christianmarcsch garycmartin: i don't think it belongs in the frame, because the frame is "supra"-activity
17:09 garycmartin: it is the interstitial space between activities
17:09 walterbender <walterbender!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:09 garycmartin walterbender: hi!
17:09 walterbender sorry I am so late
17:09 christianmarcsch walterbender: hi
17:09 walterbender still going?
17:10 garycmartin walterbender: yea, still going and still on our first topic!
17:10 silbe walterbender: Hi! Logs are at http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]etings/2011-02-27
17:10 christianmarcsch silbe: i know we discussed this last week. maybe there is a way to not properly start the activity until closing the properties view...?
17:10 garycmartin walterbender: we are on "Replace Naming Alert"
17:10 walterbender: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Meetings
17:11 walterbender reads the backlog
17:11 and looks at christianmarcsch's mock up
17:11 christianmarcsch walterbender: also take a look at the pdf i sent, with two options
17:11 walterbender: great!
17:11 walterbender christianmarcsch: looks great... I like the mock up on Page 3
17:12 silbe christianmarcsch: If you mean starting the activity in some kind of "only edit the properties, don't offer anything else" then it would raise the bar for activity authors even higher.
17:12 christianmarcsch silbe: i see. purely from a design-standpoint though, it seems like the right solution...
17:13 walterbender: thanks--that's the one i am leaning towards as well
17:13 silbe christianmarcsch: +1 - if we were Apple, it would probably be a good idea. :)
17:13 christianmarcsch silbe: ha
17:14 walterbender: actually, the thought was that there could also be a combination of the two
17:14 walterbender christianmarcsch: the other possibility would be to make the detail view be an extension of the Frame...
17:14 christianmarcsch walterbender: modal dialogs outside of the activity, and an extended toolbar palette inside the activity
17:14 silbe christianmarcsch: I still like the "turn the activity window on it's back and edit the properties there" idea from last week. Maybe we could do something along these lines even if we can't implement to flip effect yet?
17:15 garycmartin silbe: FWIW Apples UI is only a pokey little window pop-up for editing file metadata, not something to emulate ;-)
17:15 christianmarcsch walterbender: personally i find that idea a little counter-intuitive, since the frame shows me everything peripheral to an activity
17:15 silbe christianmarcsch: and in the Journal we could use some other effect like, say, zooming into the preview and flipping that on its back and showing the same properties view?
17:16 christianmarcsch walterbender: properties seem like they are directly linked to an activity, like the "behind-the-scenes" view of an activity
17:16 walterbender christianmarcsch: I see it as a work-around to the modal problem for one
17:16 christianmarcsch silbe: yes, i agree--that is the idea for the activity fullscreen palette
17:16 walterbender well... I have always been of the opinion that the Frame should be an extension of the Journal (or vice versa)
17:17 christianmarcsch walterbender: i guess that goes back to whether the journal is an activity or not
17:18 silbe christianmarcsch: any idea how we could do something similar with a window that is implemented by the Journal instead of the activity? That would get rid of the implementation problems.
17:18 christianmarcsch silbe: i suppose walter is right, that we could handle the functionality in the frame as a workaround
17:18 walterbender christianmarcsch: my argument gets stronger if it is an activity, since the Frame (and Journa) are the vehicles through which activities interact.
17:19 silbe christianmarcsch: that feels like overloading the Frame, but I'll wait for a mock-up before discarding the idea.
17:19 christianmarcsch walterbender: i definitely see your point from an implementation-standpoint
17:20 silbe walterbender: I suppose in your Frame idea the Journal would still retain the current details view?
17:20 christianmarcsch we could try mocking up the frame version as another alternative and then evaluate all three?
17:20 walterbender christianmarcsch: from the UI perspective, I think it is a toss up... is annotation peripheral to an activity (hence a logical thing to do on the Frame)?
17:20 christianmarcsch: +1
17:20 christianmarcsch walterbender: and i agree it is a matter of interpretation :)
17:21 does anyone have any thoughts on what a frame implementation might look like?
17:22 garycmartin christianmarcsch: I'm straining my minds eye trying to imaging...
17:22 walterbender christianmarcsch: I could see it coming in from the top much like what you already show on Page 3, only from a menu assocaiated with the Activity on the top
17:25 christianmarcsch walterbender: that's what i was thinking. not sure what it would look like--will have to try
17:25 garycmartin walterbender: would it include the existing resume/view source/ stop features?
17:27 i.e replace the current activity frame palette with fullscreen details palette?
17:27 walterbender garycmartin: well, those are already in the drop-down menu... they probably don't need to be included in the detail view
17:27 or the other way around :)
17:27 but not both
17:28 garycmartin walterbender: how would you edit details without resuming an activity, we would still seem to need a details view in the Journal.
17:29 walterbender garycmartin: sorry. what I meant was that from the Frame, the details view would not need to have buttons for resume, since they are already in the pull-down menu
17:30 garycmartin: or we could just incorporate all the menu items in the detail view menu
17:30 but I wasn't proposing removing the detail view from the Journal
17:32 garycmartin Hmmm, certainly need to mull over some mockups, not sure I'm following this.
17:32 walterbender garycmartin: yes... it is a bit confusing... three different points of intervention
17:33 garycmartin walterbender: three?
17:33 walterbender: So you'd want it in activity as well as in frame and in Journal?
17:34 walterbender garycmartin: probably not necessary to have it in both the Frame and the Activity
17:36 garycmartin: but maybe we could connect the 'bulletin board' key to that function...
17:36 so one key click to both call up the Frame and get into the detail view
17:43 garycmartin walterbender: re: 'bulletin board' key, seeing as it does noting right now that's a possibility.
17:44 christianmarcsch it is true that the frame solution doesn't adequately handle the case of the uninstantiated activity
17:44 it would work for the currently running activity
17:44 but what about the journal case? or the other views?
17:44 garycmartin christianmarcsch: silbe: walterbender: How are folks doing for time? Is it worth moving on to another topic, or calling it quits for today?
17:45 christianmarcsch garycmartin: i don't have a huge amount of time left--we could try to tackle another smaller topic, and revisit this one with a frame mockup
17:45 silbe garycmartin: whatever works best for you (pl.).
17:45 walterbender I'm OK either way
17:46 silbe: is there a topic that is blocking for you right now?
17:46 garycmartin christianmarcsch: yea it seems like we'll not solve this topic any time soon. So many variables.
17:48 silbe walterbender: nothing in particular I think. Most of what's on the list blocks development in some way.
17:48 walterbender christianmarcsch: did you ever look at the second set of mockups I made for the home view? (with the enlarged active activity icon)?
17:49 silbe personally I'd like to see some thoughts of how Journal backup / restore might be integrated well - with a focus on the existing activities. ;)
17:49 garycmartin OK, well perhaps we should call it quits for today, I don't see any quick easy wins listed there...
17:49 christianmarcsch walterbender: yes, i took a look... i still prefer keeping the icons the same size. i think someone suggested leaving more whitespace around the center XO and activity icon--that would help create more differentiation
17:49 silbe garycmartin: +1 - we already handled those the last time.
17:50 oh, what about walterbender's home view size issue?
17:50 walterbender: what remains to be discussed re. that?
17:51 walterbender christianmarcsch: OK. I'll force the 'freeform' view to use standard size icons and leave more space around the XO in the center
17:51 christianmarcsch walterbender: great--i think that will work well
17:51 garycmartin christianmarcsch: +1 to white space for random view, and standard size icons.
17:51 walterbender I'll write some code so you can try it out
17:51 christianmarcsch walterbender: that would be fantastic
17:52 garycmartin OK, thanks all for you time today! We have plenty to think about for next week. Same time next week?
17:53 silbe +2 (thanks and time)
17:53 christianmarcsch garycmartin: let's try that. i will be traveling the day before but should be able to make it. Maybe we could do it 1 hour earlier?
17:54 garycmartin christianmarcsch: -1hr is fine for me, any one else?
17:56 silbe fine with me - FWIW even several hours wouldn't be an issue.
17:57 christianmarcsch great--talk to you next week!
17:57 garycmartin OK, lets try for 15:00UTC next Sunday 6th, as no one else objected ;-)
17:57 #endmeeting
17:57 meeting Meeting ended Sun Feb 27 17:57:24 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
17:57 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-27T16:16:04.html
17:57 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-02-27T16:16:04
17:57 christianmarcsch thanks everyone
17:57 silbe thanks everyone for keeping the ball rolling!
17:57 christianmarcsch bye for now
17:57 silbe good evening!
17:58 walterbender bye all
17:58 thanks
17:58 garycmartin silbe: it must be a snow ball, it keeps getting bigger ;-)
17:58 christianmarcsch has quit IRC
17:58 silbe garycmartin: lol
17:59 garycmartin silbe: BTW will ping you via email about Backup/Restore icon work, might be later in the week though.
17:59 silbe garycmartin: awesome, thanks!
18:00 garycmartin silbe: Oh yea, wanted to quickly ask you about "multi-entry Journal Entry Bundle icon"
18:00 satellit_ is there any way to make it possible to revert an activity updated in CP/ to previous version?
18:00 garycmartin Is this for partial backups vs. full backups of all Journal items?
18:01 satellit_ browse 120 does not always work and overwrites older working version for example
18:02 garycmartin satellit_: not that I am aware of (unless you use Terminal to copy the Activity somewhere before you update)
18:02 silbe garycmartin: Backup/Restore currently only handles full backups. But it could easily be extended to do partial backups as well.
18:02 satellit_ It is anoying....have had to delete /usr/share/sugar/activity entry to get older .xo version to run
18:03 lower ver no .xo
18:03 garycmartin has to dash, sorry.
18:03 satellit_ thanks
18:04 garycmartin Night all
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