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#sugar-meeting, 2011-02-26

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All times shown according to UTC.

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14:01 silbe meeting: pingall AC meeting about to start
14:01 meeting AC meeting about to start
14:01 [scs] aa alsroot bernie CanoeBerry ChanServ cjb dfarning dirakx_afk dogi lucian m_anish_afk manushee` marcopg mchua_afk meeting mk8 mtd pbrobinson satellit_ satellit_F15-VB4 scorche silbe SMParris1 tch tuukkah valhalla yama
14:01 AC meeting about to start
14:02 dfarning morning silble
14:03 yama that's fortunate I'm online - didn't realise a meeting was scheduled :)
14:03 lucian neither
14:03 dfarning was just chatting with nubae in gchat he will be here soon
14:04 yama How long do these meetings typically go for? It's 1am here :/
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14:05 silbe yama: depends on how chatty we all are. Between 1h and 2h usually.
14:06 dfarning yama, lucian yes every saturday at 1400 UTC we have a dextrose meeting. the meat usually takes about an hour. them the meet breaks up and the real problem solving starts
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14:07 lucian has put it in the calendar
14:08 yama is that a public calendar? Is there a link?
14:08 dfarning silbe, this might be short anish and tch delivered dx2 I think either anish or both took the weekend off.
14:08 lucian uh, my own calendar
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14:09 silbe dfarning: they definitely deserve it :)
14:10 #startmeeting
14:10 meeting Meeting started Sat Feb 26 14:10:06 2011 UTC. The chair is silbe. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:10 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:10 dfarning silbe, the meat will likely be school server related as you yama and Nubae are all here.
14:10 silbe, +1
14:10 silbe #topic roll call
14:10 dfarning here
14:10 Nubae here
14:11 silbe bernie, alsroot, SMParris1, dirakx_afk: ping
14:12 alsroot is listening
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14:12 yama here
14:13 Nubae wishes he had a cigarette :p
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14:13 silbe hmm, maybe the rest joins in later.
14:13 Nubae: then let's start with you :-P
14:13 #topic School server
14:14 Nubae up? or dfarning?
14:15 silbe yama: oh, sorry, the first topic should have been welcoming you, of course. So: Welcome to our meeting!
14:15 dfarning Nubae, that is you:)
14:15 silbe Nubae: ^ +1
14:15 Nubae okie dokie...
14:16 well last week started off a bit strangely, mostly due to communication problems we had about what was essentially needed and what wasn't (immediately) as well as many conflicting opinions
14:16 this caused work to be 10 times harder and longer than it should have been
14:18 had it been described in a 5-10 step process and published somewhere, this would not have happened, and I would have been able to spend the literal 30 secs to a minute it took to actually implement the solution paraguayeduca was initially looking for
14:18 silbe Nubae: who is "we" in this case?
14:18 Nubae silbe I'll get to that
14:19 tch joins
14:19 silbe Nubae: ok, sorry for the interruption.
14:20 Nubae to begin with it was suggested we take steps towards creating a great new needed addition to the server and new server project that would allow for intellegent offline caching and storing of content in locations where there was little or no internet
14:20 So, I spent probably too much time looking for something that could do that all in one go....
14:21 instead it turns out the answer was as simple as address=/wikipedia.org/
14:21 that line in dnsmasq and shutting down named
14:21 thats it
14:22 it was Martin that made me realise that there had been a communication breakdown, and I was fruitlessley looking for solutions like wwwoffle, squid+tristate patch+bind, or dnsmasq+other proxies, etc
14:23 this was no ones real fault, just a lack of clear priorities.... as the dnsmasq zone jacking trick, which is btw, unethical
14:23 did the trick in seconds
14:23 dfarning Nubae, what was the inital problem PY need solved?
14:23 Nubae yes
14:24 but I spoke with tch first, then martin over email
14:24 and there seemed to be a difference of opinions there, but lets not get into that
14:25 btw... the trick above ONLY works on dnsmasq
14:25 as its a hacker exploit
14:25 it does no cache
14:26 it only redirects a domain from one location to another, but this is what was initally needed... though the later stages are still wanted
14:26 just not as yesterday
14:26 the above solution may not be compatible with the future solution either
14:27 tch dfarning: yup, it was solved ;)
14:27 Nubae but for now it fixes their problems very quickly
14:28 dfarning Nubae, what are you planning to work on this week? requests from PY, AU or longer term projects?
14:28 Nubae so we have those crafty black hats to thank for this one
14:29 silbe Nubae: ok, so you use a (temporary) hack to redirect wikipedia.org to a local server. What exactly was the problem statement? Accessing Wikipedia during periods of no internet access? Or with no access at all? Does the server contain a full copy of Wikipedia or just a limited set like the Wikipedia activities?
14:29 Nubae either or... I would like to really dig my teeth a tiny bit into the RHEL6 builder again, to implement some of XS changes, but either way works for me
14:30 silbe PY has 2 servers, one for serving activities, the other activities.sugarlabs.org
14:30 tch silbe: i guess the wikipedia domain was just an example haha
14:31 Nubae they wanted when people typed in activities.sugarlabs.org to go to their local versions
14:31 tch... a good one though ;-)
14:31 dnsmasq really is like a file that can be added to really easily
14:31 silbe Nubae: for what reason? bandwidth? higher availability? local customisation?
14:32 Nubae I'll hand that over to tch... since thats their department
14:33 silbe ok, I'll ask again when it's tch's turn then.
14:33 Nubae has to do with periods of internet downtime
14:33 silbe Nubae: so what exactly is the current state of affairs? What can "our" setup do so far?
14:34 Nubae their servers are on the same servers as dnsmasq
14:34 its all on the same XS server, the mirror to activities
14:35 silbe ok, so high availability. We should revisit this in a few weeks or months, there might be better solutions but it's low priority.
14:35 Nubae and the exploit, so effectively, when offline, the xos ask for activities.sugarlabs.org and they can still get activities
14:36 but yes, its a hack
14:36 and I didn't much like it... though it worked as soon as possible
14:36 silbe Nubae: I wouldn't exactly call it exploit in this particular case, but definitely a hack, yep.
14:37 Nubae: so can you tell us what we can currently do with the XS resp. how we can set it up at a deployment?
14:37 Nubae sure ethical in this instance
14:37 evil is in the eye of the beholder
14:38 silbe I'm not sure I understand the question
14:39 I can explain current state of affairs, if that is what u are reffering to
14:39 tch Nubae, silbe: is more complex than that actually, the problem is that there are big schools with no connectivity at all (not even pigeons to transport flash drives :P )
14:39 silbe Nubae: go ahead then, I can ask additional questions later
14:40 Nubae tch, silbe right, thats what I was looking for a solution for to begin with...
14:40 a longer term, nicer solution...
14:41 http://www.phys.uu.nl/~rombouts/pdnsd/
14:42 silbe Nubae: I'm more interesting in the state of the XS in general.
14:42 Nubae that to me looks like someone trying to look for a very similar long term solution, and I wanted to implement that... so thats one way to go, though I'd really like to foc us on more general XS stuff
14:42 took words out of my mouth silbe
14:43 tch Nubae, silbe: i can continue explaining later,  :)
14:44 Nubae sofar we have the initial builder that works for building rhel6 servers, I am in process of implementing most of XS scripts, they seem to just plug in, but would like to KISS everything down wherever possible
14:44 as right now the XS is far from KISS
14:45 the installation for example, asks if the user wants to install a large number of pieces of software (Shouldn't that be done for them already?)
14:45 yama Nubae: have you looked at our XS-AU? Much easier installation.
14:46 https://dev.laptop.org.au/projects/xs-au/wiki
14:46 Nubae the automation part for me is the most critical... having that working for multiple systems is a great benefit... then implementing puppet for post installation scripts, or synchronisation across XSes makes sense
14:46 yama I haven't thanks, I will look for sure
14:47 yama Nubae: jvonau can fill you in on details (or just flick me an e-mail)
14:47 Nubae but main point now is to have a nice working solution that builds redhat effectively with all the required components  and have it all documented
14:47 yama I'll do that
14:49 I want to get the wiki entry I started that u guys saw last week to get updated with the latest work I did (including autoinstalling a debian 6 machine with the same technique)
14:50 then its time to work on puppet, nagios, and any requests that are needed from the field, I can of course also implement any 'customisations' several places as copying something across is much easier than thinking of it, testing it and creating it..
14:50 I think that about sums it up... next week, if its ok... (well, more over the weekend) I'd like to polish server autoinstaller and update wiki
14:51 then whatever u guys throw at me next I'm happy to do, bug squashing included
14:52 silbe Nubae: ok, sounds good. Maybe the XS-AU can kickstart (no pun intended) our work. I didn't know of it either, so it's good that yama joined the meeting. :)
14:53 Nubae: anything else you'd like to mention?
14:53 Nubae yeah all those things are looking good, I'm just glancing now, but looks like we are going down similar paths
14:53 simplifying the XS
14:54 yama simplifying the XS was a primary goal of the XO-AU. We removed active antenna support and made the config more modular, amongst other things.
14:55 Nubae just that, communication is really really key... so that if we need things done... there should be clear dates as to what needs to be done first, so we dont spend time doing things for several days and then find out we could have solved the problem several days ago, if we knew certain things weren't needed yet
14:55 yama *XS-AU (not XO-AU)
14:55 Nubae yama +10
14:55 i got so mad with active antenna support, I kind of had a breakdown last week with dfarning and tch :p
14:56 it made networking in general stupidly complicated
14:56 yama yes, and the active antenna never made it to production
14:56 so it made sense to remove it
14:56 I think jvonau wrote the active antenna code, so he knew what to remove ;)
14:57 silbe Nubae: ok. dfarning resp. m_anish_afk are the people to talk to about priorities in general, but I'm happy to chime in as well for any specific question.
14:58 Nubae k... I am done? (need those cigarettes) :p
14:59 silbe Nubae: go ahead and significantly reduce your life expectancy :-P
14:59 #topic OLPC-AU
14:59 dfarning I'll work with Nubae this week on priorities:)
14:59 silbe yama: welcome again :)
15:00 yama :)
15:01 silbe yama: I'm quite excited that we're going to work with you (OLPC-AU), but I admit I'm a bit at a loss what to talk about right now. Maybe you can introduce yourself (both OLPC-AU and personally) first?
15:02 yama Sure. I'm the Technical Manager at OLPC Australia. Our mission is to get a full OLPC education programme to the 400,000 kids aged 4-15 in remote australia by 2014.
15:03 probably the most interesting thing about us is that Australia is a developed country, but the areas we go to (which in terms of area is most of the content) are quite poor.
15:03 3rd world conditions, etc.
15:03 but the schools tend to have networks, Internet, etc. So it's an interesting mix.
15:04 so on one hand, we're dealing with remote and rough conditions
15:04 on the other, there is existing infrastructure, bureaucracy, etc.
15:05 bureaucracy based in major cities, far away from the action
15:05 education is state/territory based. So far we've done most work with the Northern Territory government
15:05 we're also starting to deploy in Queensland
15:06 here's a map: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms[…]665,53.525391&z=5
15:06 so far we have almost 5000 XOs deployed
15:06 about 4000 are Xo-1.5s
15:06 we did the world's first deployment of XO-1.5s in May. We focus on those models now.
15:07 so my role in all this is to make sure the tech 'just works'
15:08 I gave a talk about the stuff we do at the linux.conf.au conference in January
15:08 http://lca2011.linux.org.au/pr[…]/237?day=Thursday
15:08 http://linuxconfau.blip.tv/file/4727137/
15:08 that's worth watching for an overview of who we are and what we do
15:09 to give an example, we had to create the XS-AU because we needed an XS that worked on existing school networks
15:09 whereas the current XS does its own NAT, DHCP, etc.
15:09 which meant we couldn't leverage existing wireless points, etc.
15:10 and the schools have authenticating proxies, requiring a user name and password
15:10 in Queensland, the APs are all hidden (BSSIDs)
15:10 silbe yama: interesting. I'll need to take a closer look, I have the same issue for testing (integration into existing network). :)
15:10 yama cool. So to summarise, we have some interesting problems to solve.
15:11 but I feel that if we can address them, OLPC will have access to school systems that have money to invest
15:11 and in solving Australian problems, you might open possibilities in other developed countries
15:12 so Australia is good from a strategic point of view
15:13 I think you guys all saw my e-mail outlining our plans. The summary is that we want to get our XO-AU 10.1.3-au2 out the door ASAP. Then we can start working on DX.
15:13 XO-AU 10.1.3-au2 will probably be our mainstay OS for most of this year
15:13 which gives us breathing room to work on DX
15:13 and we
15:14 tch yama: +1 :)
15:14 yama we're interested in leveraging the XS more
15:14 better integration with XOs, etc.
15:14 silbe yama: FWIW, this all sounds like it might be a bit of work, but solvable without a lot of compromises. I suppose the real challenges will rather be on the educational and / or administrative side. And I imagine the "developing world" deployments might benefit from your solutions in those areas.
15:15 yama yes, we're keen on generic solutions that help everyone
15:15 so far we've been hacking around the edges, but some things are better fixed in the core
15:15 e.g. proxy handling in OLPC OS is a mess
15:15 silbe yama: definitely looking forward to working with you :)
15:16 yama I'll leave it there unless people have specific questions?
15:17 silbe yama: I guess we're good for now. Let's get you some rest (2:16am for you now I believe?) and follow up on your immediate needs either via email or in IRC tomorrow / next week.
15:17 yama: thanks for joining the meeting and the introduction!
15:18 yama thanks silbe and everyone
15:18 yep it's 2:18 now :)
15:18 but feel free to contact me if you have questions
15:19 silbe yama: good night then! :)
15:19 tch yama: thanks for the visit!
15:20 silbe yama: Sure.
15:20 tch: what would you like to talk about (i.e. #topic)?
15:21 tch silbe: "misc" would be a nice name
15:21 dfarning silbe, interesting meeting so far.  More introduction focused than normal... but productive.
15:21 silbe dfarning: +1
15:22 #topic Misc. stuff from tch
15:24 tch Without getting to much into details, I spent this week a little too far from devel... Basically meeting our AU folks in order to understand their reality and needs to see how we could work together
15:26 I had a 3 hours meeting with yama and jerry over skype and I still need to put my notes into a report so I can share it with the team
15:26 mchua_afk is now known as mchua
15:26 dogi lurks
15:27 tch I also started testing their build trying to reproduce the backup/restore bug
15:28 I could not reproduce it btw, I think it was related to that mime type problems silbe and erikos fixed (?)
15:29 polyachka_ <polyachka_!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:30 tch so thats all regarding AU, meanwhile in Paraguay I am still working with anish pushing dx2-py forwards,
15:30 this week we had to deal with some miss management problems, but we did fine anyways
15:30 silbe tch: distraction: were Backup/Restore installed as "system" activities in the image or manually using .xo bundles?
15:31 tch silbe: yep
15:31 silbe tch: I love "yes" as an answer to an either-or question. ;)
15:31 tch silbe: as a system activities, sorry
15:32 silbe tch: ok, then it probably was SL#2262. Pleased to hear it works for them now.
15:32 lucian silbe: part of why i like second-granularity in irc clients is to disambiguate those
15:33 tch to finish with my weekly resume, I had to do some re-sync with Nubae over imminent needs and we are fine now
15:33 silbe tch: ok, what's the roadmap for further dx2-py work?
15:33 tch ok
15:34 polyachka_ mchua: hi
15:34 tch We started flashing machines at one school in caacupe
15:34 silbe lucian: except that it was a single message so it wouldn't have helped either :)
15:34 tch we consider this a second and probably final step in our testing process
15:34 lucian silbe: i meant that if the answer is very quick, the reader probably didn't go through all of it
15:35 mchua polyachka_: Hi there - let's go to PM, it sounds like there's a meeting here.
15:35 tch but it includes a whole schools so we hope this will trigger any undetected bug
15:36 and thats it. ;)
15:36 lucian http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/[…]estone/Python-3.x
15:36 wrong channel, sorry
15:37 tch after this testing we will start flashing all other schools and get prepared for the new 1.5 XO which will be also flashed to dx2
15:38 silbe ok, sounds like you're still going to be busy with DX-2 work for some time.
15:38 good luck with the whole-school testing!
15:38 tch I have a dx tattoo on my back ;)
15:38 heavy metal styled
15:39 silbe sweet :)
15:40 bernie damn i missed the meeting again :-(
15:40 alsroot is now known as alsroot_away
15:40 silbe tch: ok, anything else worth mentioning?
15:40 tch thanks, next week me and anish will visit that school to get first hand feedback and explain them a little more about whats new in dx2
15:40 silbe bernie: don't worry, your topic is still up
15:40 bernie silbe: which topic?
15:40 tch silbe:  nope
15:41 silbe ok
15:41 tch bernie: DEME!
15:41 silbe #topic Dextrose 3
15:41 bernie: that one :)
15:42 bernie silbe: indeed, i wanted to discuss it, you've read my mind :)
15:42 silbe I would have liked SMParris1 to report first on DX-3 progress, but he doesn't seem to be here...
15:42 bernie silbe: i don't see commits in git since Feb 3...
15:42 silbe bernie: go ahead then.
15:43 bernie silbe: so, since DX2 is now finished, it would be good to redirect some of our energies towards DX3 now
15:43 SMParris1 I'm here
15:43 SMParris1 is now known as SMParrish
15:43 bernie SMParrish: oh cool!
15:43 silbe SMParrish: great! So let's hear it from you. :)
15:44 bernie SMParrish: please, take the mike
15:44 SMParrish Going to be making a commit to the DX3 repo shortly.  Just merging in some changes from DSD
15:44 Also several activities which were not .90 compatible are now ready
15:44 still missing a few though
15:45 here is a list of em
15:45 Words
15:45 Analyze
15:45 RecordActivity
15:45 XOEditorActivity
15:45 ReadActivity
15:46 Those are the ones we have in DX2 that are not DX3 ready.
15:47 Will also be pulling in silbe newest patchsets today and doing a build for the XO-1.   I would like to get that build into some testers hands for feedback
15:48 I was working on getting the buildsystem to be able to create both Dx2 and 3 builds but ran into a few issues
15:48 bernie SMParrish: so, will the dx3 builds start flowing out again?
15:48 SMParrish bernie: Yes they will
15:48 silbe SMParrish: you saw the patches I posted?
15:49 bernie SMParrish: i don't think there's value in building both dx2 and dx3 from the same git repository...
15:49 SMParrish silbe: Some of them, still need to review them all
15:49 bernie: Your probably right, was just seeing if it could be done
15:49 silbe SMParrish: ok. Looking forward to the new build. Has the NetworkManager issue been addressed yet?
15:49 bernie silbe: i liked the idea to apply the patches with a for loop, but i'm not so sure about distributing them as a tarball.
15:50 silbe bernie: let's talk about that after the meeting.
15:50 satellit_os439 I am using os439dg here glad test...
15:50 bernie silbe: ok
15:50 SMParrish silbe: I believe it has there was a new release of NM that just went out.  Just need to test it
15:50 bernie satellit_os439: we shall upload a much newer build of DX2 shortly
15:51 satellit_os439 :  )
15:51 bernie SMParrish: NetworkManager- i'm using it on my laptop now, but why do we want it for DX3?
15:52 silbe SMParrish: in general it would be nice if we could see a bit more of what you're currently working on. IRC, mailing list, CIA - I don't care, just something that tells me you're alive. ;)
15:52 bernie: dogi will want it for the DHCP-with-hostname stuff ;)
15:52 SMParrish silbe: I can do that.  Keep meaning to send out emails but seems there is never enough time.  During the week I am gone from 0630-2000  so time has been limited
15:53 bernie SMParrish: Same feeling here. If you leave for extended periods of time, please send a note.
15:53 silbe SMParrish: so you think it's an upstream bug? Well, we'll see.
15:53 SMParrish silbe: It might be.  I have been having some NM issues with the earlier build that came out this week
15:54 silbe SMParrish: what does "gone from 0630-2000" mean exactly? Just no internet or no work on Dextrose at all?
15:54 SMParrish: ok
15:54 SMParrish silbe: no thats when the wife and I leave for the day jobs and get home  630am till 8pm
15:55 silbe: its makes for long days
15:55 silbe ok (FWIW the 24h time format was fine)
15:55 SMParrish lol ok
15:56 bernie silbe: which bug are we talking about?
15:56 lucian has quit IRC
15:56 silbe bernie: NM not getting started during boot, so the Neighbourhood doesn't work
15:56 lucian <lucian!~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:57 tch goes to eat :)
15:58 silbe ok, let's wrap up the meeting then
15:58 anything else someone would like to talk about during the meeting?
15:58 SMParrish just an FYI  I took over maintainership of about 20 sugar packages in Fedora that were orphaned by FAB
15:59 silbe SMParrish: ok. We should check whether dirakx_afk or the future second activities developer might take that job over, to leave you free for OS-level work.
16:00 dogi silbe, bernie ... the dynamic DNS is no emergency ... and i have a patch from sayamindu
16:00 silbe #endmeeting
16:00 meeting Meeting ended Sat Feb 26 16:00:48 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:00 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-26T14:10:06.html
16:00 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-02-26T14:10:06
16:01 silbe thanks everyone for staying the full two hours!
16:01 -> food
16:01 satellit_ bernie: I got approved for XO-1.5 loan should have it to test next week
16:03 satellit_os439 has quit IRC
16:10 bernie SMParrish: nice, but we don't need the sugar activity rpms for Dextrose (i question that we need them even in fedora)
16:10 satellit_: nice! i'm glad
16:11 SMParrish bernie: I know but I didn't want to leave them orpahned.  And we do need them for SOAS
16:11 bernie SMParrish: will you be around in 2-3hrs? i have to go out for a while
16:11 SMParrish bernie: I should be
16:13 bernie SMParrish: ok, ttyl
16:13 dogi satellit_, how did you do that?
16:14 satellit_ dogi: do what?
16:15 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Proj[…]h_a_loaned_XO-1.5
16:15 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Contributors
16:18 dogi ty satellit_
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16:19 satellit_ yw
16:31 dirakx_afk is now known as dirakx
16:33 dirakx missed the meeting was in a regular medical appoinment :(.
16:34 dfarning dirakx, the log is at http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-02-26T14:10:06
16:34 dirakx, it was mostly Nubae and yama getting aquainted with the rest of the team.
16:35 dirakx dfarning: wow great.
16:35 i'll read the backlog.
16:36 dfarning dirakx,  thanks
16:39 dirakx dfarning: to you ;)
16:54 dogi hi dfarning
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