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#sugar-meeting, 2011-02-15

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15:02 SeanDaly Hi, anyone around for marketing meeting?
15:03 FGrose Hi Sean
15:03 JT4sugar Hi Sean
15:03 SeanDaly greetings FGrose, JT4sugar glad you could make it
15:03 shall we wait a couple more minutes, or get started?
15:04 satellit_ lurks
15:05 SeanDaly greets satellit_
15:05 satellit_ : )
15:05 SeanDaly #startmeeting
15:05 meeting Meeting started Tue Feb 15 15:05:53 2011 UTC. The chair is SeanDaly. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:05 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:06 SeanDaly I wanted to do a debrief of the MIT Sloan MarketLab study
15:07 FGrose you were on the debrief call and of course JT4sugar it was your initiative so you both know where we are at
15:07 For lurkers & posterity, here is the link to the site wiki:
15:08 #link https://sites.google.com/site/marketlabsugar/
15:08 the raw data is there, the conclusions, presentation everything.
15:09 FGrose, JT4sugar any comments?
15:10 satellit_ has quit IRC
15:10 SeanDaly The key findings are: teachers (our primary marketing target) have difficulty downloading, installing, and configuring Sugar
15:11 satellit_ <satellit_!~satellit@2002:d064:94dc:0:219:d1ff:fe73:14e6> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:11 SeanDaly And, teachers are disoriented by technical slant of project
15:12 JT4sugar My thought is that you lay out conclusions and  your thoughts here today so there is a record to point others to. The other key is to bring our developers into these conversation to plan a path forward
15:12 SeanDaly Their key recommendation is: revamp the website
15:12 FGrose #link Survey summary: https://docs.google.com/viewer[…]GVmZTE2YTli&pli=1
15:12 SeanDaly JT4sugar: yes +1
15:13 I think we agree it's a good time to revamp the website
15:13 By website I mean the landing page www.sugarlabs.org
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15:14 SeanDaly A lot of work has been done by Bernie, by FGrose and others on the wiki which looks much better and I think is more navigable
15:15 Our "front page" has to be more inviting to teachers - more visual
15:15 Christian told me recently he's interested in working on a revamp
15:15 FGrose We need volunteers with more time to devote.
15:16 SeanDaly We have a standing offer from december of a design firm in San Francisco to assist us so there are resources available
15:16 FGrose: true, and shortage of hands on deck is a chronic problem and not just marketing :-(
15:17 JT4sugar has made a convincing case for recruiting classfuls of university students
15:17 I think this a great approach and I have compiled a short list of marketing professors in US business schools
15:18 FGrose I suspect that Steve Jacobs at RIT could find some interested students
15:18 satellit_ An idea: anyway to have a trial VM on the server that runs from the landing page? autologs on a user from that page so they can see sugar working?
15:18 SeanDaly FGrose: I will add to list
15:19 satellit_: in fact that brings me to another related topic
15:19 JT4sugar In the short run I think we take up design firm offer and see if they would work in concert with student groups. This front facing piece must be done before bicycle tours start because of so much publicity it will bring
15:19 SeanDaly the MarketLab people did not succeed in installing Sugar. There were four or five of them and none succeeded
15:20 They thought problem was more website look & feel, organization, which as I've just said is important
15:20 But the other aspect is, Sugar on a Stick no longer fulfills its demo role
15:21 The SoaS team stated as much last June
15:21 FGrose SoaS Fedora instructions also get buried in other Fedora Spins complexity
15:21 JT4sugar Landing page must  have links to deployable Sugar and demos-Testing Sugar options must be in background
15:22 SeanDaly FGrose: not only that, the file naming turns into technical gobbledygook
15:22 FGrose If serving Sugar, as Satellit suggests, would be great.
15:22 satellit_ VirtualBox 4 is agnostic to OS and hardware.....http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/E[…]_files#VirtualBox
15:23 SeanDaly After some trial and error (I am assisting OLPC France with a Sugar project with a charitable foundation) I have found that VMs are really an excellent aproach for demoing Sugar and quite possibly for deploying too
15:24 I have watched VirtualBox closely since the Oracle acquisition of Sun and I was very pleased to see VirtualBox 4 come out
15:24 VirtualBox offers two key advantages over other VMs, too:
15:25 1) it's free to download
15:25 tch has quit IRC
15:25 SeanDaly 2) it can be directly distributed for educational purposes
15:25 I can't overstate the importance of this second point
15:26 It means the difference between a 1-click installer and instructions like "go fetch & install it yourself"
15:26 JT4sugar satellit_, Do you have any local elementary teachers out there you could work with to get install language packaged in a way they can understand and follow? Besides the technical hurdle the technical language is a key constraint
15:26 SeanDaly Of course, VMs have a downside ; huge size
15:27 FGrose: I was on the phone with Walter last week at JT4sugar's initiative and he sent us a screenshot of an experiment dogi is doing
15:27 satellit_ JT4sugar: I do not ....work here alone off hi speed cable.....I hope others have better contacts....
15:27 SeanDaly it's a Sugar VM on a server - available through a browser!
15:28 satellit_ neat
15:28 SeanDaly If this works it will be a very resource-efficient way of combating unfamiliarity problem
15:28 in other words no need to mock up a pseudo-Sugar on website
15:29 JT4sugar: about technical language,
15:29 I have an idea about that
15:30 I think we should organize a panel of teachers to assist us in website revamp
15:30 Not design, but beta-testing if you will
15:30 Teachers from the community, or others
15:30 Teachers will tell us if the website is usable
15:31 I'd like to mention another advantage of VM approach
15:31 and that is,
15:32 we can support multiple distros and even variants of distros
15:32 JT4sugar SeanDaly, Should be able to get help in that area from Caryl Bigenho. I would imagine she could put a group together
15:32 SeanDaly With SoaS we spent a lot of time on the "preferred distro" issue
15:33 JT4sugar: yes Caryl would be great
15:33 satellit__Tris4 FYI: this is Trisquel 4.0 with sugar on a VM  (I may lose connection-  heavy wet snow here... Tv stations and power is up and down)
15:33 SeanDaly satellit has done great work building ready-to-run VMs in Fedora, Ubuntu, risquel
15:34 ^Trisquel^
15:34 FGrose We mustn't forget portability, as Sugar in your pocket, though.
15:34 JT4sugar You can run VM from USB correct?
15:34 SeanDaly FGrose: I believe it is possible to rn a VM off a USB stick - satellit, do you know if this is possible?
15:35 Or is it limited to transfer media?
15:35 satellit_ no very slow...better with usb external HD  (cheap)
15:35 SeanDaly I believe external USB access not in free version of VirtualBox
15:36 satellit_ works fine for running VM .vdi . Only limited in VM itself  can use ose extensions
15:36 SeanDaly It's important for us to be able to send/sell CDs or DVDs or USB sticks with Sugar
15:37 I'd like to recall one of our key marketing promises in Sugar PR:
15:37 FGrose For marketing purposes, if SoaS-1 was good, it is still available.  Our technologists will continue to work on other installation improvements.
15:37 SeanDaly Sugar on a Stick "does not touch the hard disk"
15:38 FGrose: I've been demoing SoaS with Blueberry since it came out. Most reliable on different hardware
15:39 FGrose: I saw you did some work on improving SoaS I think the filesystem?
15:40 A couple more advantages of VMs:
15:41 FGrose So while we would like a newer SoaS, we can continue to demo with Blueberry or other.  I think we lost the communications inertia with the trademark controversy, etc.  We just need to pick up now that the teams have changed.
15:41 SeanDaly Easy to prepare "populated" Sugar for demo purposes. SoaS team decision to remove most Activities made good technical sense but decimated demo-ability :-(
15:41 satellit_ look at: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]ity_Distributions  I have listed those that sugar will install on
15:42 SeanDaly FGrose: the SoaS team decided not to cooperate with SL marketing. The proposal was that Fedora marketing do that, but I never saw anything.
15:42 FGrose Sugar Clone also makes it very easy to prepare custom demo
15:42 Right, so we pick it back up.
15:43 JT4sugar This continually comes to Deployable Sugar vs. Future Sugar. Also after someone tests it out and says I want this for my classroom the road to deployment must be clear and easy. We have tools but they are not in a form that the everyday teacher can execute
15:43 SeanDaly FGrose: I'm fine with linking to Blueberry more prominently than later versions, but I am not at all sure the SoaS team will think that's fine
15:44 JT4sugar: well put. Again, I think teachers should tell us what works best to download, install & configure
15:44 satellit_ pbrobinson is only soas team member on it at this time....
15:44 FGrose The SoaS team has withered, we can repopulate it
15:46 satellit_ also for more advanced users: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/B[…]Remix_with_Fedora
15:46 SeanDaly I regretted departure of sdziallas, he had done incredible work but at a personal cost (health) and in a difficult context (studies)
15:46 satellit_: in fact I'd like to separate curious teachers from seriously considering deploying teachers
15:47 First group wants a pancake button with one-click installer, just to check it out
15:47 FGrose Its good to have the Fedora hardware infrastucture; we just need to better bridge the public information on Sugar Labs and Fedora sites.
15:47 SeanDaly Second group needs to know about Journal backup, connectivity, compatibility with IT environment X
15:48 One could say that every member of second group starts out in first group
15:49 What follows is that we need to make Sugar super-easy to learn about & try, then show the way further in - in particular our wiki, mailing list and IRC resources
15:50 satellit_ for IRC this should be on first page: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]it#Chat_room_Help
15:52 JT4sugar My thought on that Sean is that soon as most teachers try there gonna want to go to second group pretty quickly. For Teachers it's a time thing. If it's going to take them hours which is present situation they will be very reluctant and that shows in MarketLab results of uptake of Sugar
15:52 SeanDaly mchua's approach last June with SoaS was squarely focused on second group. From marketing point of view I say: no suspects = no prospects = no sales. We absolutely need to lower barriers to trying Sugar, whether online or on local machine
15:53 JT4sugar: OK that's plausible but in that case we need access to community to be not only easy, but welcoming to nontechnical teachers
15:54 FGrose JT4sugar: Are you prepared to coordinate the design firm + students, if we find some?
15:54 SeanDaly satellit_: good links. In fact we usually cite IRC in our PR too
15:54 FGrose Marketing can proceed as technologists fix obstacles.
15:55 SeanDaly FGrose: design firm + students + teacher betatesters
15:56 FGrose SeanDaly: right, of course!
15:56 SeanDaly FGrose: To move forward we need to garner attention
15:57 FGrose We haven't convinced our regular technologists to hack on SoaS.  This deserves some discussion (including with them).
15:57 JT4sugar I was unaware of design firm offer so I don't know the details of what they are offering. If they would be willing to work with students I could help facilitate. If they are not I still think we should take them up on their offer to do redesign since it seems to be pro bono
15:57 SeanDaly To do this, a way to try Sugar is essential - Marketlab study indicated teacher disappointment
15:57 JT4sugar: yes it's pro bono, I thought I briefed you on that will do
15:58 FGrose We can certainly make sure they have working Sugar sticks.
15:58 SeanDaly JT4sugar: design firm can help with lots of stuff but there will be no shortage of other things to do to revamp website
15:59 FGrose: yes, sticks or DVDs or VMs?
15:59 JT4sugar FGrose, +1 This conversation is good but unless our technologists are on board there is not much we can do. Will end up in same sitaution that happened with SoaS
16:00 FGrose SeanDaly: I'm still with SoaS as solution, together with VMs, DVDs, as desired.
16:01 satellit_ note: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/C[…]ns/Magalh%C3%A3es  provides self installing (on the USB)4 and 8 Gb USB .img files for downloading  Very nice fully installed USB  widh we could do the same.
16:01 SeanDaly FGrose: Multiple installation methods, hardware agnosticism key characteristics of Sugar. But marketing message needs to be focused
16:01 satellit_ s/wish
16:03 JT4sugar This following paragraph is from Julie at MarketLab-What are yor thoughts?
16:03 Our team is currently working on the 1 page marketing piece.  In regards to the oral presentation, I
16:03 e it available to you, we can do that as well.
16:04 SeanDaly JT4sugar: for sure an annotated presentation better than not annotated
16:04 FGrose SeanDaly: agreed. If Dogi's experiment is near to available, we can build website around it for now.
16:05 JT4sugar: I think they should put their analysis in prose (1 or 2 pages) to provide their personal insight.
16:06 SeanDaly FGrose: I'm afraid I don't know what hurdles if any are there, we shall have to ask him
16:06 JT4sugar SeanDaly, Beyond annotated presentation should we ask for a 2 or 3 page writeup? You just answered my question FGrose
16:06 SeanDaly JT4sugar: even a 1-pager would provide key findings
16:07 FGrose: it's problematic to continue marketing based on Sugar on a Stick
16:07 in particular because it is old news, even no mater how snazzy we could make it technically
16:08 FGrose Just need their core analysis to support conclusions.
16:08 JT4sugar SeanDaly, As Fgrose has mentioned going a little deeper into the insights I think is important so other Community members can understand context
16:08 SeanDaly JT4sugar: absoulutely no objection
16:09 FGrose We market Sugar.  Demo is stage 1. Trial stage 2. Pilot comes later.
16:09 satellit_ has quit IRC
16:10 SeanDaly FGrose: sure, but to market Sugar we need a downloadable, easy-to-deploy version on all computers and in particular PCs and Macs. Today, VMs fill that role better than SoaS
16:11 JT4sugar So I will ask for annotated powerpoint plus 2 to 3 pager. Does them recording the presentation help? Not sure people would take time to watch and their time may be spent better on other things. Thoughts?
16:12 SeanDaly JT4sugar: their wiki is already rich with info. if they are willing, sure. Agree it is imortant that the community understand depth of study. Conclusions are valid and recommendations need to be applied
16:12 satellit__Tris4 has quit IRC
16:13 FGrose SeanDaly: I'm back at garnering attention to Sugar and Sugar Labs (to pick up the lost momemtum) just to build a better core message for Sugar.
16:13 SeanDaly FGrose: yes, but how?
16:14 FGrose New website with fresh descriptions of Sugar and Sugar Labs and Dogi's demo if possible
16:15 SeanDaly FGrose: New website will better get our message across, but that's not news
16:16 FGrose: Live demo will be great if works and has marketing potential, but I feel its best potential beyond demo is communicating VM approach for running Sugar
16:17 FGrose We can concentrate on our message, then when we have news of better products we are prepared. Dogi's demo would be attractive.
16:17 SeanDaly We mustn't forget installation barrier - marketshare of Windows still estimated at 90%, Apple OSX at 8%, GNU/Linux desktop at 2%
16:18 in fact Marketlab reco was: don't spread message until website & supportissues resolved
16:18 FGrose Yes, we must engage our technologists to focus on that problem, and mobile solutions too.
16:19 JT4sugar I think key is to have 5-10 web pages that are Teacher oriented with Key aspects of Sugar and a easy to install download. Before we get out news fixes would seem to be made or people will come to site and say why is this so difficult. In the age of the Iphone and Android app people expect super easy download and install
16:20 FGrose, What is your thought on best way to get Technologists involved in this?
16:21 tch <tch!~tch@> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:21 FGrose JT4sugar: We need to chat with Bernie & Sascha I think.
16:21 SeanDaly I think we can agree to take a hiatus (continue a hiatus really) from product marketing and do org/corp marketing. While working on website & online demo. This better fits with walterbender's initiative with Garmin-Cervelo bike teams
16:22 JT4sugar: relaying FGrose's question, do you feel like coordinating website revamp?
16:23 bernie FGrose: i'm here but i'm at work now... i'll read the backlog later :)
16:23 FGrose SeanDaly: That summarizes my thinking. While we talk to technologists too.
16:23 bernie SeanDaly, JT4sugar: hello there!
16:23 SeanDaly greets bernie
16:23 JT4sugar Hi Bernie
16:24 SeanDaly FGrose: I'd rather no marketing decisions get made without input from technologists, AND vice versa
16:25 Traditional IT industry = marketing comes first
16:26 Traditional FOSS = marketing comes last (if at all)
16:26 FGrose We need a report from FUDCON on F15 spins too.
16:27 SeanDaly I think we need to trust teachers (our key target) as to what will be best...
16:28 FGrose SeanDaly: Satellit and I are only ones with feature proposals for new SoaS. They all address teacher requests for customization features.
16:30 SeanDaly FGrose: do you think SoaS could fill demo role again?
16:32 FGrose Yes, with complementary support from VMs and CD/DVDs for Macs (until boot loaders are fixed).  (I've booted PowerPC Macs from USB into Ubuntu Sugar.)
16:33 JT4sugar SeanDaly, My thought would be that you would write up a Marketing vision for next 3months/6months/12months(referencing Marketlab results for need). At that point we can engage technologists to see what is doable in what time frame. When you point out what is desirable asking who is willing to support each point I think is important
16:34 SeanDaly JT4sugar: I have done lots of reflecting, but I want to avoid being conductor of an empty orchestra pit :D
16:35 So yes, I am willing to write up what I think our strategy should be in light of MarketLab work, but other input essential....
16:35 FGrose I will engage Bernie and others on technical questions...
16:36 JT4sugar SeanDaly, The write up is a Vision which will become a startegy after input
16:36 Strategy
16:37 SeanDaly JT4sugar: I will try to do that in the coming week. I'll be travelling from tomorrow until Monday but maybe use some plane time productively ;-)
16:38 FGrose I think it would be good to begin talking with design firm associated teams to warm things up on those fronts.
16:39 SeanDaly FGrose: you mean design frim which has offered services?
16:40 FGrose The imminence of tablets and other mobile devices is pressing us to expand technology as well.
16:40 SeanDaly I feel that Christian should work on website, he has brand/logo understanding second to none. We need to explain that revamp means more traditional website
16:40 FGrose SeanDaly: yes, if we have a coordinator.
16:41 SeanDaly FGrose: re tablets/mobile, I agree
16:41 I need to go soon but just a couple of minutes re Garmin-Cervelo teams
16:42 FGrose Christian doesn't seem to have enough time to coordinate, but he can oversee the brand/logo, etc.
16:42 SeanDaly They will be doing a tour in Uruguay and walterbender suggested & I agree that we could do PR at that time to celebrate 2 million Sugar users and a totally sugarized country
16:43 FGrose: I'd like JT4sugar to coordinate but he hasn't answered yet :D :D
16:43 FGrose Good chance to connect Sugar with OLPC!
16:46 SeanDaly FGrose: relations with OLPC vastly improved, I had some great meetings with Walter and Rodrigo of OLPCA in Paris
16:46 FGrose olpcMAP should help as well
16:47 Adam Holt can put his Sugar Labs hat on for us.
16:47 SeanDaly I need to run now... we covered a lot of ground today
16:47 JT4sugar SeanDaly, Need to understand what Design firm is willing to do. Bringing them on board gives us professional resources we don't have and the people resources we need. If you want to set up conference call with them to see what they can do then we can make judgement on what Sugar Labs or other resources may be needed.
16:48 SeanDaly FGrose: Adam has unfailingly supported Sugar these past two years
16:48 JT4sugar: OK I will try to set up a conf call with them & you
16:49 FGrose Just suggesting Adam can help coordinate olpcMAP and Uruguay event
16:49 SeanDaly FGrose: good idea
16:50 OK i will post minutes summary to marketing list, ending meeting now many thanks
16:50 FGrose JT4sugar: go for conference call...
16:51 JT4sugar I think if we have that call I can understand how much coordinating is needed and if I can fit into workload. Not being a technical guy I can facilitate but not sure Im right person for this
16:51 Will do everything I can to help
16:52 FGrose I think Bernie and others can fill in technology help.  Just need a marketing coordinator for website.
16:52 SeanDaly JT4sugar: redoing a website is very marketing, as the design firm will attest. They can brief on technical in liaison with bernie and dogi
16:53 ok signing off now!!
16:53 JT4sugar If design firm is doing heavy lifting then I should be able to facilitate/liason
16:53 FGrose Students will also provide momentum, if you can recruit some.  Talk to Steve Jacobs,...
16:54 SeanDaly #endmeeting
16:54 meeting Meeting ended Tue Feb 15 16:54:27 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:54 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-15T15:05:53.html
16:54 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-02-15T15:05:53
16:54 FGrose Thanks Sean!
16:55 JT4sugar Good Day All!
16:55 SeanDaly bye !
16:55 SeanDaly has quit IRC
16:55 dogi <dogi!~nemo@> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:56 FGrose dogi: you have an experiment to serve Sugar?
16:56 dogi hi FGrose
16:57 FGrose Good to chat with you again, after so long...
16:58 dogi :)
16:58 FGrose dogi: Sean says he saw a demo with Walter of Sugar served from a VM over the net.
16:58 lucian has quit IRC
16:59 dogi http://sugarbush.media.mit.edu[…]mit.edu&port=6080
16:59 passwd is first 9 letters or "short hostname" :P
16:59 FGrose, do you understand
17:02 by the way chromium is handels this the best
17:02 followed by firefox
17:02 FGrose go it in chrome on F14
17:02 Great!
17:03 dogi FGrose, I see you
17:03 FGrose We want it on new website to be developed
17:03 dogi multiple vnc session
17:03 too
17:04 FGrose I'm not in center, what color am I
17:04 dogi green
17:05 FGrose, let me move the mouse
17:05 lucian <lucian!~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:06 FGrose You are Igod?
17:07 dogi reverse
17:07 :P
17:08 FGrose, look now
17:08 likes this picture
17:08 4 turtles on the screen
17:10 FGrose great!  Will is withstand website traffic, or could we provide a robust experience?
17:11 As a marketing demo?
17:11 dogi hmmm
17:12 is working on improving that
17:12 FGrose Perhaps limit traffic or provide mirrors?
17:12 dogi right now I can give selected persons demos
17:13 FGrose Marketing Team is wondering how to better demo Sugar for public since installation is still so technical.
17:14 dogi ya mirrors or different located demo could be a solution
17:14 how is markting team
17:14 you? sean?
17:14 FGrose I need to chat with you and bernie about some of these things.
17:15 http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-02-15T15:05:53
17:16 Sean, JTSugar, and I just met. Satellit also
17:16 s/JT4Sugar
17:17 s/JT4sugar
17:17 dogi hui I see
17:18 FGrose We are planning a renewed website for www.sugarlabs.org
17:18 lucian has quit IRC
17:18 dogi is working on Infrastructure team meeting ... agenda
17:19 FGrose, /me was on the mit sloan event/presetation
17:20 FGrose OK, good. Bernie promised to look at backlog as well. Chat with you later then.  Thanks for the demo!
17:22 dogi FGrose, wrote you something in the privat chat .... do you know how to switch into in chat.sl.o
17:22 lucian <lucian!~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:23 bernie FGrose: i'll have some time to chat at 1pm EST (like 20 mins... i also have to eat :-)
17:27 dogi http://meeting.treehouse.su/tr[…]-01T21:29:54.html
17:33 lucian_ <lucian_!~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk> has joined #sugar-meeting
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17:42 satellit_ACER <satellit_ACER!~satellit@208-100-148-220.bendbroadband.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:43 satellit_ACER power back on..
17:44 does anyone have meeting notes link?
17:47 FGrose http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-02-15T15:05:53
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