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#sugar-meeting, 2011-02-13

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13:58 walterbender garycmartin: thanks for accommodating the change in meeting time
13:59 christianmarcsch <christianmarcsch!~christian@cpe-24-193-242-220.nyc.res.rr.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
13:59 walterbender hi christianmarcsch
13:59 garycmartin walterbender: Hi, no problem for me. Just worried we might have lost some others with the off-list email.
13:59 walterbender garycmartin: since I may have to leave early, do you want to be the one to #start_meeting?
14:00 garycmartin walterbender: sure, one moment...
14:00 christianmarcsch hi walter, gary
14:01 garycmartin #startmeeting
14:01 meeting Meeting started Sun Feb 13 14:01:43 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:01 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:02 walterbender thanks for coming to the design meeting... long over due :)
14:02 christianmarcsch yes indeed!
14:02 i have been looking through the agenda
14:02 walterbender did everyone see the agenda Sascha put together?
14:02 christianmarcsch could use a little explanation...
14:02 walterbender #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ruary/029938.html
14:02 christianmarcsch: I suppose we can go into detail one by one
14:02 garycmartin walterbender: yes, and yours, and Simon's!
14:03 walterbender I'd like to add the Home View idea that Fred posted this morning as well...
14:03 christianmarcsch walterbender: thanks, that would be great
14:03 garycmartin walterbender: whose list should we start with?
14:03 walterbender #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]Home_View/Toolbar
14:03 let's use Sascha's, which I think is comprehensive
14:04 #topic size issue with Random View
14:05 garycmartin #topic Issue with icon size in Random Layout home view
14:05 walterbender as background, when we added the spiral, I upped the maximum size of icons to Medium when there were just a few icons
14:06 if you switch to Random View, it ends up making the icons Standard size when you move them.
14:06 Question is: what size should icons be in Random view? should the size change wit density?
14:06 garycmartin walterbender: is it possible to have the behave as they did before and avoid needing to make a new specific choice?
14:06 walterbender (let's not spend a lot of time on this one: pretty minor point)
14:07 christianmarcsch quick question: by random view, i assume you mean freeform?
14:07 walterbender garycmartin: sure: I can make them all map to standard size. (yes freeform -- it is called random in the code)
14:07 christianmarcsch is there a screenshot posted somewhere?
14:08 walterbender christianmarcsch: I didn't make one... I could while we move on to the next topic
14:08 christianmarcsch walterbender: thanks, that would help.
14:09 garycmartin walterbender: If we go with scaling the icons based on count, then free form patterns people make would need shuffling as the size scaled, would be frustrating I think.
14:09 walterbender garycmartin: I agree...
14:09 garycmartin: so probably we should just pick one size.
14:10 garycmartin: but the old code just assumed a maximum size... doesn't really handle the situation properly
14:10 christianmarcsch walterbender: could we pick one size for random view, but still have the other view scale?
14:10 walterbender christianmarcsch: yes.
14:10 garycmartin walterbender: the freeform layout does not have such a hard limit on the number that can fit in a fixed layout (which is where the auto scaling really helps).
14:10 walterbender garycmartin: agreed.
14:10 so the question is simply, what size?
14:11 so I will make a screen shot or two to show you
14:11 christianmarcsch ok, perfect
14:11 garycmartin walterbender:  what is the size of the icon that is directly under the large central XO? Seems like that should the the default in that zoom view.
14:11 walterbender garycmartin: that is Standard size
14:12 garycmartin: actually, I find it confusing sometimes that that icon doesn't move and the others do, so I would argue a different size would help (or some other distinction)
14:13 garycmartin walterbender: yes fair point, especially in freeform layout where icons can clobber near there.
14:13 walterbender well, let me make the screen shots... meanwhile, shall we discuss the Mute button?
14:13 garycmartin walterbender: (but it still seemed about the right size ;-)
14:13 walterbender garycmartin: yes. I agree
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14:16 walterbender #topic Speaker frame device: pop up palette on left-click instead of toggling   mute
14:16 silbe: can you give a brief intro?
14:16 garycmartin walterbender: +1 from me for speaker device tweak.
14:17 silbe I'll copy & paste the patch description:
14:17 Speaker frame device: pop up palette on left-click instead of toggling mute
14:17 Reports from the field indicate that users accidently left-click the Speaker
14:17 icon and don't realise it got muted. By popping up the palette we enable them
14:18 to explicitly choose the mute action without instead of surprising them by
14:18 automatically executing one of the secondary actions (there is no primary
14:18 action).
14:18 (trying to find a mockup or screenshot of the Speaker device so we all know what it looks like currently)
14:19 christianmarcsch is this it: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]:Screenshot-3.png
14:20 silbe christianmarcsch: yep, exactly. This is NOT it: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]/Designs/Frame#07
14:20 (the latter one is missing the Mute action)
14:20 christianmarcsch do we have a state change on the icon when muted?
14:20 i mean currently?
14:20 silbe yes, it turns monochrome if muted
14:21 otherwise owner colors
14:21 christianmarcsch i see
14:21 that probably isn't a strong enough signal
14:21 the proposal to put it in the palette seems fine to me
14:22 i certainly makes the functionality more clear
14:22 garycmartin christianmarcsch: I'm also not aware of other device toolbar icons that have this top level single click action, certainly not any of the default ones.
14:22 silbe it already is a secondary action in the palette. My proposal is to drop the "hidden" primary action and just pop up the palette on left-click (as well as right-click) instead.
14:22 garycmartin +1
14:23 christianmarcsch sounds good
14:23 silbe nice :) walterbender?
14:24 christianmarcsch one question: how do i unmute?
14:24 does a new menu item appear?
14:25 walterbender silbe:  I am fine with this proposal
14:25 silbe christianmarcsch: same way. The action changes to Unmute
14:25 garycmartin christianmarcsch: just double checking, but I'm sure the item renames
14:25 walterbender christianmarcsch: #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]reeform_icon_size
14:25 silbe (I just double checked ;) )
14:26 christianmarcsch walterbender: thanks for the screenshot
14:26 walterbender seems like we have consensus on this one...
14:27 garycmartin christianmarcsch: yes, cross in circle icon and Mute text changes to tick in circle icon and Unmute text.
14:27 #AGREED
14:27 silbe perfect. Let's go back to the first one then, the icon sizes in free form view?
14:27 christianmarcsch +1 re: mute
14:27 walterbender #topic icon size in free  form
14:27 everyone see the screen shots?
14:28 christianmarcsch yes, thanks
14:28 so, i agree that if we had to go with one size, standard size probably works best
14:28 medium looks good, but will only work for a small number of icons
14:28 i also see walter
14:28 's point about differentiating the icon below the XO
14:29 walterbender christianmarcsch: well, you can pack quite a few in if you have all the screen even at Medium size
14:29 christianmarcsch walterbender: visually, i'd be inclined to go with medium
14:29 walterbender probably 100 or more
14:29 garycmartin walterbender: can we have a larger hit mask area around the central XO icon in freeform mode to make sure there is reasonable white space?
14:29 silbe whispers: Let's drop it... :D
14:29 walterbender garycmartin: I like that suggestion
14:30 christianmarcsch garycmartin: the whitespace would help, and we may not need to otherwise differentiate the size of the icon
14:30 walterbender let me make some more sketches based on this feedback and maybe we can revisit this through email?
14:30 christianmarcsch ok
14:30 one thing i'd add:
14:31 it would be nice if we could also make the icon under the XO medium, with added whitespace
14:31 walterbender I need to check, but I don't think Freeform puts any protected zone around the center of the screen... leaves that to the user.
14:31 christianmarcsch: I'll try that option as well
14:32 #agreed that walter will present more sketches in an email thread
14:32 #topic  Don't hide Register menu item upon successful registration
14:32 silbe: you are up again!!
14:32 silbe ah, now it's getting "interesting"
14:33 garycmartin walterbender: I'm not sure if your bot commands will work...
14:33 walterbender: need to be the meeting chair according to the wiki I'm reading
14:33 walterbender garycmartin: OK...
14:33 garycmartin irc://irc.freenode.net/#agreed that walter will present more sketches in an email thread
14:33 silbe Currently we have a "Register" menu item in the buddy menu of the central XO owner icon that's shown iff the user isn't registered to a school server yet.
14:34 garycmartin #agreed that walter will present more sketches in an email thread
14:34 #topic Don't hide Register menu item upon successful registration
14:34 silbe For deployments (including non-XO ones) and individual users that don't use a school server, it will always be shown.
14:35 Some deployments don't back up the school server, so they need users to be able to register again (after the school server has been re-installed).
14:36 garycmartin silbe: The register option should be a menu on the neighbourhood view, specifically the schoolserver icon we spent ages on should be in the main canvas with the options.
14:36 walterbender silbe: and I image if they change schools... another scenario?
14:36 silbe Others do the registration fully automatically (though I don't know how) and don't want the menu item to be shown at all.
14:36 walterbender garycmartin: that'd be nice
14:36 silbe garycmartin: except that I have no idea how that would work on the network level.
14:37 walterbender be nice to not ever have it on the home view...
14:37 garycmartin silbe: is not schoolserver not an agreed dns name?
14:37 silbe walterbender: +1 it always felt awkward to have that option there.
14:38 garycmartin: which one? schoolserver.school1.edu, schoolserver.school2.edu, ...?
14:38 walterbender silbe: as a short-term measure, not having it disappear would be innocuous enough it seems.
14:38 garycmartin silbe: so how does the 'register' option deal with multiple servers on the same domain?
14:39 silbe in the simple cases, the school server is an all-in-one solution that handles DHCP and DNS, too, so just "schoolserver" works. But if Sugar is fit into an existing infrastructure, that might be possible.
14:40 garycmartin no objection to keeping the register option visible if that is a quick fix that works – though it is and alway was in the wrong place ;-)
14:40 silbe garycmartin: it depends on someone having set the address in the Control Panel. Default is jabber.sugarlabs.org.
14:41 garycmartin silbe: your kidding, my goodness... ouch.
14:42 silbe hmm, maybe we can do some HTTP level poking to discover if the Jabber server is a full-grown school server and display the school server icon in the Neighborhood then...
14:42 garycmartin silbe: there's no mention of schoolserver in the UI text.
14:42 walterbender silbe: seems we should be able to get something into the school server to make such identification readily apparent
14:43 silbe: shall we get martin langhoff on it?
14:43 garycmartin: there has been a school server in the Sugar mix since Day One. the fact that the HIG doesn't mention it is an oversight
14:44 silbe walterbender: yeah, would probably be a nice medium-term solution. Long-term I'm not sure if the assumption that both are the same machine make sense, but let's talk about that sometime else. :)
14:44 walterbender silbe: I don't think that is the intention... both the same
14:45 garycmartin walterbender: totally agreed, having never need to user a schoolserver I never realised how shockingly poor the UI to it was implemented/documented.
14:45 walterbender so de we agree to the short-term patch and the longer term direction to investigate?
14:45 garycmartin +1
14:45 silbe garycmartin: FWIW, that's what my current patch does - it renames the menu item to "Register again".
14:46 walterbender silbe: that is an improvement
14:47 shall we advance to the next topic?
14:47 garycmartin are we all happy with that one?
14:47 walterbender +1
14:47 christianmarcsch +1
14:47 garycmartin christianmarcsch: ^^
14:47 silbe +1 on both for me. christianmarcsch?
14:47 walterbender #topic Journal entries on external media
14:47 garycmartin #agreed to not hide Register menu item upon successful registration
14:48 walterbender another silbe topic :P
14:48 garycmartin #topic Journal entries on external media
14:48 silbe yeah, or erikos - but I was the one who proposed the changes, so I adopted it :)
14:49 Context:
14:49 OLPC ships a version of Sugar 0.84 that brings back some of the Sugar 0.82 way of handling Journal entries on external media
14:51 current "upstream" versions of Sugar 0.84+ don't store (Sugar) metadata on external media and construct a minimal metadata set based on file name and detected file type
14:52 (the reason I'm mentioning "OLPC ships" is just because version numbers don't adequately describe the different versions of Sugar and their handling of external media)
14:53 the patch is going to get merged into 0.92, and I proposed a few changes:
14:53 a) remove the metadata if there is not an associated file (e.g.
14:53 file has been deleted), so any file that gets written with the same name
14:53 in the future doesn't get associated with stale metadata. Files are
14:53 often named "Untitled.odt" etc., so it might be a rather common case.
14:53 b) delete metadata if it gets corrupted (don't delete the actual file)
14:54 c) remove preview if mtime does not match (e.g. Peter saves his Write entry to a storage device, he opens it in OpenOffice on his mother's computer and his mother corrects some errors ---> the preview will be outdated), this might not be a too big issue - input on the design team on this welcome.
14:54 (sorry for the wrapping on a) )
14:55 garycmartin silbe: I don't see anything controversial from a design side with the proposed changes (assuming code review and testing went well).
14:55 silbe It's all about what happens if an entry is modified or deleted outside of Sugar.
14:55 garycmartin: nice.
14:55 (there's no updated code yet)
14:56 christianmarcsch silbe: i'm not sure about removing the preview. it seems that it may still have value, even if it is outdate?
14:56 walterbender silbe: does preview even make sense in the context of external media?
14:56 silbe FGrose proposed the following alteration:
14:56 'Watermark' the image with 'Changed'. (Even an old image may help identify the object.)
14:56 I like it (FGrose's proposal) :)
14:57 christianmarcsch silbe: that sounds like a reasonable solution
14:57 silbe walterbender: sure. Think sharing a large bunch of photos.
14:57 garycmartin silbe: 'Changes' will need to be localised, and fit in the fairly small preview images.
14:58 christianmarcsch silbe: it may not be necessary to even indicate that it has changed
14:58 silbe garycmartin: Good point. Though probably the existence of a banner might be enough of a hint even if it's not readable.
14:58 christianmarcsch silbe: once i open the file in sugar, the preview will be re-generated, correct?
15:00 silbe christianmarcsch: yes, it would. I'm worried about users getting confused that the preview shows the old version even though they did changes, and might think the changes didn't get saved.
15:00 garycmartin silbe: Actually, I think step c) could be dropped, I'd not be too flustered seeing an old preview. Perhaps worse would be seeing the blank grey and having a panic that my data was not there anymore.
15:00 silbe (actually opening the file would show the updated contents, of course)
15:00 christianmarcsch silbe: i think i agree with garycmartin. a badge/watermark could be explored, but may not be necessary
15:02 silbe ok. so definitely not "drop the image", and maybe watermark / badge / other indication of change (e.g. text label below the image).
15:02 walterbender needs to go offline for an hour... will try to reconnect.
15:02 christianmarcsch: FYI: see the new sketches at the bottom of http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]reeform_icon_size
15:02 thanks all. CU
15:03 garycmartin walterbender: thanks!
15:03 christianmarcsch walterbender: thanks, ttyl
15:03 walterbender likes Fred's home view toolbar proposal, FWIW
15:03 later
15:03 silbe garycmartin, christianmarcsch: what's your schedule? should we just interrupt the meeting until walterbender gets back?
15:03 christianmarcsch silbe: i can probably tune in again for a little bit later today
15:04 garycmartin silbe: yea I think that should be fine, should I end meeting for now and make today a two meeting session?
15:04 silbe christianmarcsch: do you have a rough estimate when?
15:04 christianmarcsch silbe: in one hour should work for me
15:05 silbe garycmartin: Sounds good, but can we sum up the current topic quickly first?
15:05 christianmarcsch: perfect.
15:05 garycmartin silbe: Sure.
15:05 FGrose <FGrose!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:05 christianmarcsch great--talk to you soon
15:05 silbe I suppose we had consensus that a)+b) are useful changes?
15:06 christianmarcsch silbe: yes
15:06 garycmartin silbe: so we seemed to agree that a & b are fine, and that c is not necessary.
15:06 silbe and for c) we have consensus not to do it that way, but maybe a different way.
15:07 garycmartin silbe: I think badging an old preview would actually be more confusing.
15:08 walterbender has quit IRC
15:08 silbe and as there doesn't seem to be a strong need to signal the change, we could add it after the patch landed
15:08 i.e. this decision doesn't block the patch review.
15:08 garycmartin silbe: Sure.
15:08 christianmarcsch silbe: that makes sense. if there is any confusion, we can reconsider a badge/watermark
15:09 silbe ok, I'll move the change indication idea to 0.94+ then. Let's try to see what actual users think of it.
15:09 garycmartin #agreed a) remove the metadata if there is not an associated file; b) delete metadata if it gets corrupted (don't delete the actual file)
15:10 silbe Not that I expect them to actually get back to us if they're getting confused, but that's a totally different matter.
15:10 #agreed c) do NOT delete the stale preview image
15:11 garycmartin: ^
15:11 garycmartin silbe: Future gazing for png/jpg/... common formats, perhaps out of date previews could be generated?
15:11 #agreed c) do NOT delete the stale preview image
15:12 silbe garycmartin: it would be slow, but certainly a possibility. For the details view, it might be OK if we add a "loading" animation for the preview.
15:12 garycmartin silbe: did you omit the "Dynamically set number of control panel columns" topic intentionality? Would be real nice to finally land this dextrose based change.
15:13 silbe: details view, loading spinner sounds good.
15:13 silbe garycmartin: It's listed for 0.94+ as "Control Panel rework (erikos)".
15:14 garycmartin silbe: oh well, I guess it can wait _another_ 6 months ;-)
15:15 silbe garycmartin: Or rather, we decided to keep the current patch in master, since it makes the situation better. Label wrapping is needed no matter whether we apply the patch or not, and that's what the CP rework topic is about.
15:15 garycmartin silbe: Understood, thanks.
15:15 OK, so we all done for 1hr?
15:15 silbe garycmartin: the remaining issue is made more "interesting" by a bug in recent versions of GTK.
15:16 garycmartin: yep, let's do #endmeeting now.
15:16 christianmarcsch talk to you in an hour
15:16 garycmartin #endmeeting
15:16 meeting Meeting ended Sun Feb 13 15:16:17 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
15:16 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-13T14:01:43.html
15:16 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-02-13T14:01:43
15:16 silbe thx everyone for a productive (first) meeting!
15:16 christianmarcsch has quit IRC
15:17 garycmartin silbe: thanks, we haven't got to any controversial design topics yet...
15:17 silbe: see you in one hour.
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16:17 garycmartin christianmarcsch: No sign of Walter just yet.
16:17 silbe walterbender doesn't seem to be back yet...
16:18 christianmarcsch no worries. i'll hang out...
16:19 silbe garycmartin: IOW the topic arrangement was a good fit so far, ensuring we make some progress on each meeting. That's encouraging.
16:20 garycmartin silbe: yea always good to get through the 'easy' ones first.
16:23 silbe garycmartin: the not-so-easy ones are coming now. Please greet our trusty old friend, the Keep button. <g>
16:25 garycmartin christianmarcsch: while we hang around, do you have any opinions on how best to incrementally tidy/update http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/H[…]erface_Guidelines ?
16:25 christianmarcsch good question
16:26 they could definitely use some restructuring
16:26 at least, one should go through an reconcile them with any changes that were made
16:27 updated screenshots, etc.
16:27 garycmartin christianmarcsch: Ideally I could start by striking through out of date texts, add new text in a different colour/style, then post for review.
16:27 christianmarcsch that does sound like a good start
16:27 it would be nice to actually have a proper document
16:28 PDF format
16:28 or something that is easier to digest
16:28 taking the text from the wiki (the "living" document),
16:29 silbe christianmarcsch: perhaps FGrose knows how to produce a PDF from a wiki hierarchy?
16:29 christianmarcsch and putting it into a more readable format
16:29 garycmartin christianmarcsch: Ah not a live wiki. Hmm perhaps I could capture what is there now as a fixed document before making further changes? It would be nice to have such a fixed snapshot as past reference.
16:29 christianmarcsch garycmartin:that would be great, yes
16:30 garycmartin silbe: Easy enough for me to pull it in to an editor and format nicely.
16:30 christianmarcsch garycmartin:i definitely think the wiki HIG should continue to exist--just suggesting that it might be useful to have a condensed/more legible version in addition
16:30 i could help with that in march
16:30 this month is super-busy :(
16:31 garycmartin christianmarcsch: +1, needs to be a live document for sure. Making fixed document snapshots is a nice extra step I think.
16:32 silbe garycmartin: ok, since you're keeping the wiki version, that sounds fine enough. I was just worried about moving the authoritative copy elsewhere.
16:32 christianmarcsch garycmartin: i just think there is a significant amount of time investment needed to engage with the current HIG
16:32 alternatively to a separate document, maybe we could also pull out the high points of each section?
16:33 silbe wonders who is going to tackle the task of making the Sugar design touch screen (i.e. tablet) suitable...
16:33 christianmarcsch silbe: that would be a really interesting project to take on
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16:34 christianmarcsch silbe: it seems to me that we should plan for another sugarcamp, where we can hash out the details of a touch-enabled UI face-to-face
16:34 silbe christianmarcsch: s/would/will/ - OLPC is going to produce tablets once the XO 1.75 is finished.
16:34 christianmarcsch: good idea.
16:34 christianmarcsch silbe: it just seems that would be more effective than working remotely
16:35 silbe: we could do another sugarcamp in cambridge...
16:35 silbe christianmarcsch: it usually is - the problem is getting the people physically together across continents.
16:35 garycmartin silbe: there was talk that there would be some dev XO 1.75 with a touch layer applied to the screen to help kick start and test the touch side of development. Essential step to my mind...
16:36 silbe I for one can't afford paying for the flight myself...
16:36 christianmarcsch silbe: where are you based currently?
16:36 silbe garycmartin: +1, and I'm eagerly waiting for such a model :)
16:36 christianmarcsch: Germany
16:36 christianmarcsch silbe: whereabouts? i may be back there this year sometime
16:37 silbe christianmarcsch: Tübingen (near Stuttgart). Would be awesome to meet.
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16:37 christianmarcsch silbe: nice. we are usually in the hamburg area...
16:38 silbe christianmarcsch: ok, opposite side of Germany, but still better than the US. ;)
16:38 christianmarcsch silbe: yes! i agree it would be great to meetup
16:38 to take on larger projects like a touch ui, i think we need to find a different process
16:38 dfarning_afk is now known as dfarning
16:38 christianmarcsch nothing works better than just getting everyone in a room
16:39 but in absence of that, we could also try skype/video conferencing
16:39 garycmartin christianmarcsch: (and locking the door)
16:39 christianmarcsch garycmartin: hah
16:41 so, should we try again in an hour?
16:41 any word from walter?
16:43 silbe christianmarcsch: please let me know once your schedule is fixed. We might even be able to arrange a Sugar MiniCamp.
16:43 christianmarcsch silbe: yes, will do. that would be great
16:43 silbe christianmarcsch: +1 on locking the door ;)
16:44 if we do it in northern Germany, maybe even garycmartin could come and join us?
16:45 garycmartin silbe: Maybe, but I can't promise. Certainly a much better chance than getting over to the US.
16:45 silbe garycmartin: Looking forward to it!
16:47 hmm, doesn't look like Walter is coming back soon...
16:47 we could tackle the second topic already: Move more activities to the new toolbar (erikos)
16:48 Since I don't know what feedback he wants from the design team on that topic, it would be a no-op. ;)
16:48 garycmartin silbe: That is more a todo task than a design decision at this moment :-) And it needs to be done!
16:49 silbe garycmartin: It definitely does, but I'm not sure what the Design Team can do about it. Are there specific TODO items that need design decisions to be made?
16:50 garycmartin silbe: I'm roped in to do at least mockups for Read, Paint, Record, Memorize. Simon mailed me off list for Memorize yesterday so I think he has that one in mind just now.
16:51 silbe garycmartin: ah, I see. That are the concrete topics to (potentially) discuss / work on then.
16:52 garycmartin silbe, christianmarcsch: should we start meeting and continue, chit chat on some items, or have another official meeting at another date?
16:52 silbe garycmartin: FWIW, I don't mind either way.
16:52 christianmarcsch garycmartin: i'd say schedule another official meeting
16:53 garycmartin: since i'm running out of time...
16:53 silbe christianmarcsch: what date and time would suit you best for the next meeting?
16:53 christianmarcsch garycmartin: we could try next saturday/sunday
16:54 silbe: weekdays may be difficult due to the time difference
16:54 silbe: but if we keep it short, i can also try weekday mornings
16:54 garycmartin silbe: The Memorize UI (toolbar) is a real pain just now if you look closely, its 'edit' and 'play' modes are almost like two separate activities (you have to save work in edit mode and separately load it back in in play mode).
16:54 silbe christianmarcsch: as long as I get advance notice, I can make it any day.
16:55 garycmartin: ouch. (Save/Load between modes)
16:55 christianmarcsch silbe: i do still have a few minutes--we could try to tackle a few more issues perhaps?
16:55 silbe christianmarcsch: we could do some brainstorming
16:55 garycmartin silbe: christianmarcsch shall we tentatively say next Sunday at something like the same time? And confirm by email to the list?
16:55 silbe either on 0.94 ("early future") or future topics
16:56 christianmarcsch silbe, garycmartin: that works for me
16:56 silbe http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Meetings
16:56 garycmartin, christianmarcsch: +1
16:56 christianmarcsch ok great!
16:56 garycmartin OK, I'll edit the wiki and post out to the list later.
16:57 christianmarcsch we'll try to get through all the remaining issues next weekend
16:57 garycmartin christianmarcsch: OK, removal of the "Keep" toolbar button from all activities. Replace that function with a "Duplicate" function in the Journal.
16:58 silbe garycmartin: take care to reload the page as I already edited for the finished first meeting
16:59 garycmartin christianmarcsch: Is that a painful proposal for you, or an 'about bloody time'? ;-)
16:59 silbe <g>
16:59 christianmarcsch garcymartin: hah. it's been a long time coming for sure...
17:00 silbe where would be a good place to put Duplicate?
17:01 garycmartin christianmarcsch: I still keep seeing blogs and emails from deployers and community members that are totally confused by it. I've even given up trying to explain it.
17:01 silbe: 'Duplicate' would likely just be in the pop-up palette for Journal entries.
17:02 christianmarcsch silbe: right, agree with garycmartin
17:02 do we currently have multiple select in the journal?
17:02 garycmartin christianmarcsch: Folks seem to think it's either the "Save" button – and oh my I'd hate to see those kids journals with 10's of duplicate entries...
17:02 silbe sounds good. What about the details view? That would probably be the place to do it for non-recent versions (hint ;) )...
17:03 christianmarcsch: still not yet :(
17:03 garycmartin christianmarcsch: multiple select. No we don't yet.
17:03 silbe that's a topic we should try to tackling in 0.94, BTW.
17:03 (multi-select)
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17:04 christianmarcsch silbe: the details view would be another natural place for it. do you happen to have dcreenshots of the current journal build?
17:05 garycmartin christianmarcsch: ...and many of the others seem to think Keep generates a new unique copy they can work on, when actually the files all share the same ID (unless that has been tweaked recently), meaning you can only ever have one 'version' open at a time, and I dread to think what happens if it is shared...
17:05 silbe christianmarcsch: slightly outdated: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]sion-mockup-2.png
17:06 I'll do a quick now now...
17:06 christianmarcsch thanks!
17:06 garycmartin silbe: Duplicate could be a more obvious button in the details view as we have more UI space there to work with.
17:07 christianmarcsch garycmartin: it's been a while since i've looked at this, but isn't the second-to-left icon in the toolbar duplicate?
17:08 (referring to the mock silble linked to)
17:08 garycmartin christianmarcsch: it's listed as copy.
17:09 christianmarcsch garycmartin: ah, i see. potential source of confusion?
17:09 garycmartin christianmarcsch: and just puts 'it' in your copy/paste stack clipboard.
17:09 christianmarcsch garycmartin: we'd need to make sure we distinguish the functionality. is copy even needed?
17:10 garycmartin: nevermind, i guess it would be to share elements between activities
17:11 garycmartin christianmarcsch: I can't say I've ever used that copy feature in anger myself, usually because activities have balked at pasting a fair amout of data types (plain text is likely the only vaguely reliable one).
17:11 silbe http://sascha.silbe.org/tmp/jo[…]ot-20110213-1.png
17:11 http://sascha.silbe.org/tmp/jo[…]ot-20110213-2.png
17:11 christianmarcsch silbe: looks like i need authorization...?
17:11 garycmartin silbe: your server is locked for me there.
17:12 silbe: "Error code explanation: 403 = Request forbidden -- authorization will not help."
17:12 silbe ah, sorry, forgot to chmod. The data store is usually pretty locked-down.
17:12 fixed
17:12 I was too lazy to come up with a good title in the wiki, so I copied it out of ~/.sugar/... instead of uploading it using Browse.
17:13 christianmarcsch thanks silbe! i've downloaded the images, will start thinking about a button placement
17:14 silbe, garycmartin: unfortunately i have to go--being called away
17:14 let's reschedule for next weekend
17:14 garycmartin OK, well lets call it quits for today, Thanks all!
17:14 christianmarcsch thanks!
17:14 talk to you soon
17:14 garycmartin 'all' who am I kidding ;-)
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17:15 silbe oops, too late :)
17:15 garycmartin :-)
17:16 silbe very nice meeting today. Looking forward to the next one!
17:17 garycmartin silbe: Well we made it through some items which is always nice!
17:17 silbe: Catch you later.
17:19 silbe garycmartin: cu, and thanks for taking part!
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19:09 walterbender I presume the meeting is over :P
19:09 The first hour was quite productive. Glad we got a start on these issues. I'll look at the log.
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