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#sugar-meeting, 2011-01-29

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13:41 dfarning tch -- are you ready for todays meeting?  I normally give bernie a wakeup call about now to make sure he is up:)
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13:49 tch dfarning: i am :)
13:50 dfarning tch, +1 was just talking to m_anish in cause you were still recovering from your drive back.
13:51 m_anish, thanks for being willing to cover if needed:)
13:51 m_anish dfarning, np
13:57 tch dfarning, m_anish: apparently bernie and SMParrish will not be able to make it, since they are at fudcon
13:57 dfarning tch +1
13:58 m_anish tch, yup, read their email
13:59 dirakx waves
14:00 m_anish silbe, hi!
14:00 dirakx, hi!
14:00 dirakx m_anish: hi  ;)
14:01 tch dirakx: hello :)
14:01 dirakx tch: hello, hello :).
14:02 tch silbe, alsroot: around ?
14:02 alsroot is listening
14:03 tch alsroot: haha kk,
14:04 m_anish tch, #startmeeting?
14:04 tch there we go,
14:04 #startmeeting
14:04 meeting Meeting started Sat Jan 29 14:04:43 2011 UTC. The chair is tch. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:04 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:06 silbe is there. Might have to switch batteries if the meeting takes too long.
14:06 tch Welcome everyone, i am not fully aware of all the topics others might have for today's meeting so to make it quick m_anish and i will start talking about yesterday meeting with Paraguay Educa team.
14:06 dirakx great
14:07 m_anish tch, before that, can I give a quick update about the release?
14:07 tch sure,
14:07 #topic quick update about the release
14:07 :)
14:08 m_anish okay, so RC release was slated for 31 jan, moved to 28 jan (edu team request) and moved back again to 31 jan (edu team takes request back) ...
14:08 (1) has most strings in sugar translated to spanish
14:08 (2) updated activity list
14:09 before monday, we'll enable the feedback feature, and integrate some more patches...
14:09 downgrade cairo version to 1.08 (as 1.10 made browse crash badly)
14:10 thinking about disabling the dextrose intl repo for py release (so that only thoroughly tested stuff goes in the build)
14:10 i have some feedback on new features, will follow that up on email
14:11 final release still due for 14-15 feb, but pretty much everything is present in the current release (barring a few patches)
14:11 tch, i'm done :)
14:12 dirakx m_anish: i have a question about (1)(2)  what would be the best way to review/add some string spanish translations for that particular release?.
14:12 m_anish fyi, http://people.sugarlabs.org/anish/translate2.xls list of new translations in the new release
14:12 dirakx, hmm, i've had tch and carlos (pyeduca) convert the strings and [scs] review them
14:13 dirakx m_anish: ok
14:13 tch great information, some of these points are related to what we discussed yesterday too,
14:14 about the cairo downgrade, we need to look deeper on why there was an update in the first place, to make sure we are not bringing other bugs we did not know about
14:15 or at least know what are the differences
14:15 m_anish tch, SMParrish and bernie included the update to have faster rendering of icons during activity startup
14:16 tch m_anish: i see, not sure it worth it if it crashes browse everytime you close a tab...
14:16 m_anish tch, not worth it, till someone debugs it, i'll remove it from the intl repo
14:16 for reference "SMParrish> m_anish: yes it was.  something bernie and I decided to try while at OLPC-SF  this is the 1st we have heard of an issue with it.  I can remove it from the repo if needed,  then future builds will default to 1.08 or whatever is in F11"
14:17 tch great,
14:17 alsroot btw did we get cairo version in recent fedora updates?
14:18 silbe since you already mention it: Will anyone work on figuring out what component causes the crash and report it upstream?
14:18 alsroot if fc11 had it for months, downgrading it maybe dangerous..
14:18 m_anish tch, did you test on 0.84 build whether cairo crashes browse?
14:19 silbe alsroot: more dangerous than Browse crashing regularly?
14:20 dirakx first step would be filling a bug on our tracker describing simptoms for further analysis
14:20 alsroot silbe: well we have not only browse..
14:20 m_anish alsroot, i believe for fc11, cairo was frozen at something like 1.08.xx-2, /me searching for link... it was probably something bernie and SMParrish custom built
14:21 alsroot m_anish: if it was dx related upgrade, then yup, switch back to original fc11 cairo is preferable
14:21 m_anish alsroot, http://koji.fedoraproject.org/[…]nfo?packageID=447
14:22 alsroot,  http://download.sugarlabs.org/[…]xo2/rpms/i386/os/ cairo is 1.10 is present here, i'll still double check with bernie
14:22 tch m_anish: let me see if the download worked
14:24 m_anish silbe, i believe browse crashes 'quite rarely' with the older cairo, but with the new one, it crashes *everytime* we close a tab
14:24 silbe dirakx: candidates are https://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/2492 https://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/2431 .
14:24 dirakx silbe: /me reads.
14:25 silbe m_anish: yes, exactly. :-/
14:25 m_anish silbe, besides that, opening maps.google.com on xo1/1.5 old/new cairo crashed everytime for me as well (js engine issues ?)
14:26 dirakx silbe: these should be also realted to issue ''not able to open blogger.com'' on browse.
14:26 silbe m_anish: that's one of the two tickets I mentioned above. Would be nice if you could check whether those are the same underlying issue (by comparing the stack traces).
14:27 m_anish silbe, ah, ok!
14:27 dirakx gdb traces like this https://bugs.sugarlabs.org/att[…]gdb-backtrace.log
14:28 in browse case https://bugs.sugarlabs.org/att[…]gdb-backtrace.log
14:30 m_anish also, re: translating, it would be good to have a simple interface like translate.sugarlabs.org, if its not too much work (/me unfortunately knows little abt translations)
14:31 I had to do {vim + grep + re} vodoo to get translations integrated in the po files :)
14:32 silbe m_anish: for DX-3, I'm pushing for having our translation work on translate.sl.o because that's where the translators are. I'm not sure who I need to poke to get that done.
14:32 dirakx silbe: gonzalo, maybe i in the future are working on pootle.
14:32 silbe (previously I would have talked to unmadindu)
14:32 dirakx: great news!
14:33 m_anish tch, back to py, the focus will gradually shift from s/w development to more infrastructure related issues
14:33 dirakx silbe: a dx branch should be created
14:33 also dx-py for example.
14:33 silbe dirakx: will you remain online after the meeting so we can work on it together?
14:34 tch m_anish: yup,
14:34 dirakx silbe: i have to get out but i'll be back online after one hour  so we can work then.
14:34 tch anything else to add to the current topic?
14:34 silbe dirakx: good
14:34 is anyone using DX-2 already?
14:35 tch silbe: mesively?
14:35 massively*
14:36 silbe tch: in production I mean, not just testing.
14:36 tch nope,
14:36 silbe ok, thx.
14:36 tch but that is goig to happen in 2 week (approx)
14:36 #topic meeting with pyedu technical staff
14:37 alsroot btw I'm going to package dx-2 for trisqule this week
14:37 m_anish alsroot, tch, sorry, just remembered one more thing, we'll probably need to have some sort of test-plan ready next week, will need your help making it though
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14:38 tch m_anish: sure i can help with that, we need to make sure the testing is being done properly or it wll be useless
14:39 dirakx tch: count with me in testing activities included if needed.
14:39 m_anish tch, yep, will work on that front
14:40 tch kk, lets move on to what we talked yesterday..
14:40 m_anish tch, +1 :)
14:42 tch basically we were talking about what we should expect from each other for the next month, that is going to be critical, since the paraguay educa already decide to massively update all their xo 1.0 to dextrose 2
14:42 and also, they are receiving the 5000 1.5 xo, which they expect to flash with dx2 too
14:43 m_anish: can you repeat again the deadlines again ? to make sure we all have it in mind
14:43 alsroot m_anish: we should have testing related docs on wiki, somewhere..
14:45 m_anish tch, sure, so 14-15 feb is our release date, i think we start flashing the existing laptops within that week and the new laptops around 20 feb
14:45 tch well, from what i was told yesterday, there should be a release candidate for Tue Feb 2, it will be tested with formadores, and teachers and like 50  kids in one school of caacupe.
14:46 m_anish fyi, handout of new laptops wil probably occur between 2nd -4th week of march
14:46 tch m_anish: +1, that make 2 weeks of testing.. is not much.. thats why it is important to make it work as better as possible
14:47 there are some important considerations about the updater we discussed in the meeting,
14:47 m_anish ([scs] said he would attend this meeting, he knows the dates better, i've pointed out what's relevant to us)
14:47 tch m_anish: yeah, lets keep those in mind .. since are the most critical for us
14:48 I will just list the considerations roberto told us yesterday, concerning the updater...
14:49 1. there are schools with no internet but they all have XS, so we should provide mirrors that will be updated periodically by their insite technical team
14:50 Nubae how are they currently updating XS?
14:50 tch Nubae: with schools with internet they use puppet,
14:51 Nubae: with school with no internet, they only do it when it crashes due to a hardware problem
14:51 Nubae ok so no updates for schools with no internet, they never take the XS to a central location where there is internet access to update?
14:51 tch Nubae: but for the updates scenario they will manually copy the new files to the local repo, we also need to make sure this is a easy a process
14:52 Nubae: only when it crashes,
14:52 silbe has quit IRC
14:52 Nubae ok
14:52 alsroot btw we need a solution for internet-less usecase not only for yum updates but also for activities
14:53 m_anish: is it a blocker for dx-2 release?
14:53 tch alsroot: in both cases we should put it on the XS,
14:53 Nubae yeah XS should be able to update activities
14:54 puppet can do that
14:54 alsroot w/ microformat updater, it should be trivial, just having html page w/ files on XS
14:54 tch alsroot: exactly
14:54 m_anish Nubae, alsroot, yup, we're planning to have a similar structure for activities, as with the updater, configuring the XS so that it points to itself
14:54 tch yep, by simply playing with the host file
14:54 so the updater will work locally on schools but they can also access to the central one outside
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14:56 tch we should have some way to easily deploy the repo + (cron/rsync with the central one, which will only work for schools with internet) + host file configuration
14:57 any suggestions?
14:57 Nubae well crontabs can be put into puppet
14:57 same with rsync instructions
14:58 I have the lastes Py puppet files but haven't finished going through it, but if thats in use it would be a matter of modifying that
14:58 tch so basically the architecture we discussed yesterday was simply to have a central repo at pyedu office (i will mention some considerations about it now) then each XS should have a miror of it... which will be updated via internet or manually ..
14:59 any thoughts on this ^?
15:00 Nubae repo done with reprepo?
15:00 silbe tch: FWIW, this sounds good to me. A repository can be easily replicated using USB sticks and rsync.
15:00 tch silbe: +1, that is what we though
15:00 Nubae or pushed via cobbler
15:00 centrally before xses are in the field i mean
15:01 silbe there's also been some work done by projects like Wizzy Digital Courier to allow "browsing" via Sneakernet
15:01 dirakx the problem there is that one has to physicall change places from time to time to update, having to carry around a stick.
15:02 tch dirakx: that is already been done regularly
15:02 dirakx: technicians visits each school every weerk
15:02 week*
15:02 dirakx tch: so no problem in keeping doing it ?
15:02 tch dirakx: and is that or hoping for magic :)
15:02 dirakx: nope
15:02 dirakx tch: hm ok.
15:03 m_anish dirakx, we don't have internet at many places, so physically transporting stuff to/from them is the only way
15:03 Nubae can't get around that :-)
15:03 dirakx right
15:03 tch i was hoping for magic :(
15:04 silbe dirakx: That's the basic problem, yes. There are two ways to tackle it: Piggyback on existing infrastructure (e.g. post bus) to transport the data regularly (via USB sticks, onboard APs, whatever). Or set up new infrastructure, like wireless links from village to village / school to school.
15:04 tch silbe:  we considered the second and it insanely expensive in some cases..
15:05 dirakx silbe: first is the only alternatif then.
15:06 silbe tch: depends on the exact laws of the country in question (required certifications, available frequencies, etc.). Remember that there's equipment other than just 802.11 (e.g. amateur radio).
15:07 tch: in theory, you could even blast out updates from a radio broadcast station :)
15:07 m_anish was hoping there would be HAM radio operators in py to assist with wireless comm. but couldn't find many ;-)
15:07 dirakx tch: have you concidered gprs/cellular conectivity..?.
15:07 Nubae silbe I like it
15:07 silbe Nubae: it's how recent satellite receivers update themselves ;)
15:08 tch silbe: yep, we asked many companies  for help, the problem are some schools that are literally islands of connectivity, surounded 360 by hiils and more hills around them is they require many antennas or a lot of power to get through it
15:09 dirakx: there is none at thoe schools
15:09 dirakx bottom line the only solution for now is to carry around sticks from time to time.
15:10 tch yep,
15:10 dirakx tch: shame...
15:10 tch ok, lets continue this the topic :)
15:10 m_anish tch, we have a redundant 25m big dish in Aregua that we could potentially use to blast em waves (/me shuts up)
15:10 silbe tch: partnering with a "satellite DSL" provider might be an option, with a downstream link only. This is more or less how the first "satellite DSL" setups worked: upstream was a telephone line. For just updates, we wouldn't need upstream.
15:11 m_anish tch, right, we should test a lot with the XS we have at the office
15:11 Nubae yep still works in rural spain
15:11 silbe but yeah, we should continue with less long term topics :)
15:11 tch if you guys can think of options i can tell pyedu team will be glad to hear them ;)
15:12 ok, the second consideration for the updater is: no repo should point out outside of paraguay educa
15:12 dirakx ok
15:12 silbe tch: ask for help on olpc-devel. There are a few smart folks subscribed that have worked on similar stuff in the past.
15:14 tch it means that originally the updates repo should be empty and anything goes in should be reviewed and tested before
15:14 silbe and if you're going for the big stuff (like satellite), team up with Peru. The latest intern report on OLPCNews suggests they're having the same problem.
15:14 m_anish tch, right, this way we ensure nothing blows up, and passes through two testing levels (intl repo followed by py repo)
15:15 silbe who will do the testing? PyEduca?
15:15 tch silbe: yes, teachers, formadores a around 50-60 kids
15:15 silbe (just trying to get a picture of the actual workflow)
15:15 m_anish tch, also we would enable a testing repo 'manually' for a handful of ppl...
15:15 tch, silbe +1 exactly
15:17 tch the school is called Daniel Ortellado, there are 2 teachers of 5 and 6 grade that always helped us with testing
15:17 and so they will again,
15:17 is very hard to find real testers
15:18 silbe tch: why is it hard? I'd imagine kids to love playing with new toys...
15:19 tch silbe: yeah, kids loves it... but teachers tend to not like it when it comes with big changes or bugs.. because enthusiasm stops when they are not able to do their work.
15:20 dirakx tch: older kids can do that..they would be more open to on-the-edge stuff. /me guess.
15:20 silbe tch: ah, I see. Do you overwrite the regular installation or install to an external SD card so they can change back to the "stable" version in case of trouble?
15:21 tch dirakx: yup, thats why it is a great coincidence that are around 7,6,5 grasde
15:21 dirakx tch: nice!.
15:22 silbe what's the age range for XO / Dextrose usage in PY, BTW?
15:23 tch silbe: only if its something too critical with no workarounds, i remember receiving the request some times,  but we just focused on fixing it in time and deploying an update asap
15:23 silbe: because even doing a downgrade is a huge waste of time for them, it takes some minutes where they want to be teaching..
15:24 silbe tch: maybe teachers would be more likely to test if they can switch to the old build right in class.
15:24 (by simply rebooting and pressing the square key during boot)
15:24 dirakx thats a nice feature of ofw.
15:25 silbe dirakx: yep. I use it for kernel testing and recovering from mistakes I made on my Debian install - the internal SD card contains a regular OLPC build (maybe Dextrose in the future).
15:25 tch that would work if every teacher and kid had a usb with the original image and if you spent the time to teach them when it would be necessary to do it, etc
15:26 ok, moving on this topic..
15:27 we also talked about the feedback server we  decided that (for now at least) it will be a central one in pyedu offices,
15:27 silbe tch: not sure why they should need a USB stick with the original image. They should have the "stable" build on the internal SD card / flash and the "testing" build on an external SD card. But I agree we should move on...
15:27 tch m_anish: am i missing anything else?
15:28 m_anish tch, nope, pl continue...
15:29 tch well that is basically what we talked about (relevant to us)
15:29 does anyone else has something to say on the current topic? :)
15:29 m_anish was thinking about fallback/redundancy incase the updater doesn't work as well as we think it might, but will discuss later
15:31 tch m_anish: about that, we better focus on this testing to make sure it works.. the only plan is B is re=flashing.. and that takes weeks (considering pyedu human/usb resources)
15:31 m_anish tch, would there be schools without a XS as well (i guess there might be)
15:31 tch m_anish: nope,
15:32 m_anish tch, ok, good :)
15:32 tch m_anish: XS is a core element in schools
15:32 m_anish: at least in the way pyedu is doing it ;)
15:32 which makes a lot of sense to me.
15:33 m_anish tch, we also discussed whether the adhoc networks are actually used in practice, but i guess its not relevant here
15:33 silbe tch: that's great news to me. It means there are regular backups of all XOs.
15:33 tch silbe: yup, :)
15:33 silbe: we rely a lot of that.
15:34 silbe is there a backup of the XSs? <gdr>
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15:34 tch is there any other topic that i am not aware of and that cannot wait until the next meeting? :D haha
15:34 m_anish tch, i think you covered everything re: py
15:35 silbe for DX-3, bernie and SMParrish should get back to me before working on non-XO stuff because I've already done some parts of it this week.
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15:36 tch silbe:  awesome, there is some projects in py interested in that
15:36 are*
15:36 silbe tch: tell me about them some time :)
15:37 tch silbe: i will when i get more information, all i know is that they are _very_ interested in sugar
15:38 silbe tch: awesome!
15:38 tch ok, if there is nothing else to add to this meeting..(we can talk about anything else after it)
15:38 silbe tch: +1
15:38 tch #endmeeting
15:38 meeting Meeting ended Sat Jan 29 15:38:45 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
15:38 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-29T14:04:43.html
15:38 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-01-29T14:04:43
15:39 tch silbe: one of the former pyedu founders created his own NGO to do similar projects, so they are very interested in sugar
15:40 silbe: i am not sure about the hardware they are going to use,
15:40 silbe dirakx: when will you be around again? 17:45? or more like 18:15? (I'll go offline in between, don't have a third battery with me)
15:41 tch: interesting.
15:41 dirakx silbe: more like 18:15.
15:41 silbe dirakx: ok, will get back online at 18:15 then.
15:42 is going to have some cake now. Have fun everyone!
15:42 tch silbe:  take care!
15:42 dirakx silbe: thanks
15:42 silbe thx, you too.
15:43 silbe has quit IRC
15:43 dirakx tch: m_anish Nubae take care bye..
15:43 tch dirakx: have a nice rest of the weekend
15:43 m_anish dirakx, nice meeting! see you later!
15:43 dfarning thanks guys you covered a lot of important stuff!
15:46 tch :)
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