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#sugar-meeting, 2011-01-26

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21:01 pflores hi guys!
21:01 is everybody in? :)
21:02 alsroot here
21:02 JT4sugar Hello All
21:02 dfarning is listening.
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21:04 pflores Ok, I see a lot of people in the channel, so while people gets into the party let me make a brief introduction to begin the discussion
21:05 silbe listening now
21:05 pflores As I said in my mail, now I'm working for AC, but I've been involved with olpc/sugar since 2007, when Plan Ceibal began
21:05 silbe pflores: how about #startmeeting so we get nice minutes?
21:06 pflores silbe: good, I'm not too experienced in conducting IRC meetings so I follow your suggestions
21:06 #startmeeting
21:06 meeting Meeting started Wed Jan 26 21:06:33 2011 UTC. The chair is pflores. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:06 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
21:07 pflores ok, now we officially started :)
21:07 As I said in my mail, now I'm working for AC, but I've been involved with olpc/sugar since 2007, when Plan Ceibal began
21:08 In this new stage the goal is the same: work for making the community strong to work on deployment's needs
21:10 AC is a new player here, a different one because it has a commercial approach. However, AC needs a strong community for making sugar successful and olpc deployments successful... Otherwise AC wouldn't survive
21:10 So we all share some goals
21:11 I'm personally very concerned in growing the community and making life easier for newcommers
21:11 FGrose http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Pflores
21:12 pflores So, that's the kind of things I'm proposing to discuss
21:12 silbe #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Pflores
21:13 pflores AC has the ability to catalyze some projects, for instance, putting part of its team to work on them.
21:14 So far so good? Can we start with the points of the agenda?
21:14 silbe can you paste the agenda so we have an overview?
21:15 alsroot pflores: use #topic to set current agenda item to disucss
21:15 pflores Agenda:
21:15 1. Centralized Authentication Service?
21:15 2. Metadata (taxonomy, hashtags, ...)
21:15 3. Users tracker (throughout different platflorms)
21:15 4. Aggregating information (feeds, archives, logs, tweets, ...)
21:15 5. Search tools
21:15 #topic CAS
21:16 I put a question mark at the end of the topic as I think it's mostly a question
21:16 walterbender pflores: I will lobby for 6. a portal for sharing
21:16 pflores Can/should we work in a centralized authentication?
21:17 walterbender: good! Other topics accepted :)
21:17 alsroot thinks it that CAS will be really useful, even within SL sites, but it will be especially useful having it for many sugar related sites
21:17 s/sites/orgs/
21:18 silbe pflores: We already are working on it. The question I find more interesting is: Is the current multitude of accounts considered a significant obstacle in participating at Sugar Labs? Should we give it priority over other tasks?
21:18 pflores alsroot: +1
21:19 silbe: I think you're working in single sign on solution for sugarlabs.org, but also for other organizations?
21:19 walterbender pflores: who is the audience for #1? Developers? Teachers?
21:19 dogi <dogi!~nemo@18.111.8.44> has joined #sugar-meeting
21:20 pflores For instance, could ceibalJAM users use the same login with the solution you're developing?
21:20 silbe e.g. I'm working on seamless / automatic logins from within Browse, but as a "spare time" project (=> proceeding very slowly). Should I work more on that and less on other things?
21:20 dogi lurks
21:20 alsroot walterbender: I thinks just any sugar related sites, having CAS will mean more convenient usage for all people, also it will get use centralized users directory..
21:20 pflores walterbender: I'd ideally think in the whole community, which includes developers, teachers, artists, whoever... Anyway we should work step by step
21:21 silbe pflores: I'll skip the details and say: yes, they can.
21:21 alsroot even within SL we have wiki/activities/git/bugs ...
21:22 walterbender pflores: I was asking in hope of getting some insight into silbe's question about priorities...
21:23 silbe (the details are which services they use, who hosts them, who maintains them, the amount of work required to implement it in each and every individual service)
21:23 alsroot silbe: I guess before asking these questions, we need to find someone who can answer :)
21:23 pflores My opinion is that having to register in different systems makes it somehow difficult for newcommers to get involved in projects and giving feedback
21:24 alsroot pflores: you said you satrted from ceibal, what you think about inviting caibal peopel to this initiative
21:24 walterbender pflores: In my limited experience, even though it is a pain, not having a unified log in is not a deterrent for a developer... and most teachers don't know how to use open-id
21:24 silbe alsroot: I'm asking pflores specifically based on his stated background (Plan Ceibal, CeibalJAM!).
21:25 pflores alsroot: I guess ceibal people won't be much interested. Maybe some ceibalJAM vounteers could be interested
21:26 alsroot pflores: for "won't" you mean social or tech issues (solving technical issues is not a problem..)?
21:26 pflores walterbender: I'd really like something easier than openId, a service for just loging in once and then move around tools seamlessly
21:27 FGrose Like XO <-> XS communications...
21:28 pflores alsroot: political issues :) So far Ceibal hasn't been much interested in working with the community. why would they be interested now in working FOR the community?
21:28 silbe walterbender: when my solution is fully deployed, they don't even need OpenID. The sites will greet them as new contributors on first usage and ask them to provide a few details. On subsequent visits all SL sites will "remember" them; no explicit login required. (at least with Browse)
21:28 CanoeBerry Apologies!
21:28 alsroot also, CAS is a good chance to work on connecting sugar related communities..
21:28 CanoeBerry Catching up.
21:28 pflores silbe: what about other browsers?
21:29 silbe pflores: depends on the browsers. Some behave in ways that wouldn't be exactly user friendly. :-/
21:29 alsroot silbe: I particular tech detaild is not a problem at the end... we need a wish from several sugar communities to support this feature at first
21:30 *I guess
21:30 pflores alsroot: can you speak your mind?
21:30 silbe (turn up "scary" dialogs to "select your certificate")
21:31 pflores silbe: Maybe we can have a "suggested" browser for best user experience...
21:31 alsroot pflores: I meant that having CAS for sites of several sugar orgs, means 1) having central users directory, 2) admins from several org working on the same infra (only for auth)
21:32 silbe pflores: IIRC it would work with Iceweasel (Firefox). That one's pretty widespread anyway.
21:32 pflores walterbender: having a central users directory isn't part of your idea of #6?
21:32 silbe: chrome?
21:32 walterbender pflores: I was hoping we could just use the public_key in Sugar
21:33 dogi has quit IRC
21:33 walterbender pflores: we could use it for your problem #1 as well
21:33 silbe pflores: I guess #6 is like a.sl.o, just for non-activity stuff?
21:34 walterbender silbe: alsroot and I have been discussing this one for a while... could be an extension of ASLO
21:34 pflores silbe: ask walter ;)
21:34 silbe walterbender: that's almost my plan, BTW (except that I recently decided not to recycle the current "Sugar" key and instead create a new one specifically for Browse, for technical reasons)
21:34 walterbender silbe: will that key be auto-generated for Sugar users?
21:35 silbe: then it can be transparent
21:35 alsroot walterbender: public_key is just a detail of impl, CAS is more general. eg, even w/ public_key implemented we need central user durectory (eg for authorization)
21:35 silbe walterbender: Sounds like a good fit to me. IIRC a.sl.o already has rating (by users) etc.?
21:35 walterbender silbe: yes... ratings/comments
21:36 silbe: and a maintainer :P
21:36 silbe walterbender: I already have a local patch for the autogeneration, I just can't test it right now because something's broken on sunjammer w.r.t. SSL :(
21:36 (well, I have tested the generation obviously, but I can't test operation with the key)
21:37 alsroot thinks meeting is turning to duscuss sunjammer tech issues rather that community relates tasks
21:37 walterbender silbe: but we had been holding off making big changes to ALSO in anticipation of Mozilla plans
21:37 silbe alsroot: +1
21:37 pflores the centralized authentication looks to be a solution for the current difficulty for taking a quick look at different information there's now (even more for newcomers).
21:37 alsroot: +1
21:38 alsroot also we can't change the world, peopel will use non-sugar envs to visit sugar resources
21:38 walterbender pflores: where in our infrastructure do you need to authenticate to "look"???
21:39 pflores The final goal is to make working with the community easier
21:40 alsroot pflores: +1, having "start sugar/Browse" to visit activitieis.sl.o won't be useful
21:40 especially for wiki
21:41 silbe alsroot: I didn't (mean to) say people need to use Browse, just that it will work perfectly with Browse and depending on the actual browser it might range from almost-perfect to confusing.
21:42 pflores: so you think that it is a significant obstacle to participation and we should work on improving it?
21:42 pflores That's a good point walter: In one side it would be good to have better interfaces to look what's happening around, where some topics were discussed, etc. Then, we should promote users to participate, which straightforward be as simple as posssible.
21:42 silbe If so, I will do a write-up of my planned solution so other people may be able to help out with parts of it.
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21:43 pflores silbe: I think so. What I'm not sure if it's the first step we should take. Indeed, probably we should work on some other tools before
21:43 walterbender pflores: I think a big boost to participation would be more efforts like alsroot's integration of the translation into our meeting bots and expanding the web interfaces to our IRC channels...
21:44 silbe BTW, I think we should wrap up and move on to the next topic. We already spent half an hour on the first of six topics.
21:44 walterbender pflores: what do you think about autotranslation of some of the mailing lists? sur->sur-en and iaep->iaep-es ?
21:44 pflores silbe: +1
21:45 silbe pflores: ok. This is a relatively slow-moving target partly due to the client (i.e. Browser) side. So it might make sense to do at least some of the work early.
21:45 pflores I put a list of 5 ideas for the community. But we probably can brainstorm 100
21:46 silbe pflores: e.g. testing how Chrome behaves :)
21:46 walterbender: +2
21:46 pflores maybe we should take note of the ideas and try to priorize them
21:47 silbe the machine translation isn't good, but it's a good start
21:48 use #idea for the ideas and it'll get included in the minutes
21:48 we can think about priorities the listed idea till the next meeting
21:49 pflores I think we have too many topics for just one meeting. I propose take a quick look at the 5+1 proposed points in the next half hour and continue the discussion next week
21:49 Agree?
21:50 (BTW walterbender: I really like your idea :) )
21:51 silbe how about "#agreed The current multitude of accounts for services at Sugar Labs (and related organisations) is considered an obstacle to participation. We should work on a seamless / automatic log-in system, though the priority of this is not yet clear."?
21:51 pflores silbe: +1
21:52 silbe walterbender: who exactly would be the target of that work?
21:52 walterbender silbe: I don't there is much cross pollination between the two lists.
21:53 silbe (it's very likely a good idea for a part of the community we want to reach, I'd just like us to be explicit about it as it helps coming up with more ideas)
21:53 walterbender silbe: but I think there would be interest in hearing what the teachers on sur discuss...
21:54 pflores Ok, let's move to the next topic
21:54 silbe walterbender: ah, I'm too slow. Was referring to 22:43 ("more efforts like").
21:54 pflores #topic metadata
21:54 silbe FWIW, we already have a web-to-IRC gateway and IRC translation, both courtesy of alsroot
21:55 pflores: so no #agreed?
21:55 pflores There's  a lot of valuable information in different places: mailing lists, wikis, blogs, ...
21:55 silbe: I agree but no one else did :(
21:56 alsroot in my mind it depends on central users directory, having bunch on emails/blobg/etc and not having a chance to say if they are from the same person..
21:56 pflores alsroot: that's a big part of the problem
21:57 silbe alsroot: I don't think it's a blocker. Each service can have optional links to other services. It's a bit of a privacy issue, too...
21:57 alsroot but it relates to 1)
21:58 silbe pflores: hmmk (agreement)
21:58 pflores but it also would be good to, for instance, find the trends of the discussions in the mailing lists of the community, or easily find where there are teacher's suggestions for using turtleart, for instance
21:59 We also don't have agreed good hashtags for twitter for instance...
21:59 silbe pflores: Do you have any ideas how to achieve some part of that? It's a hard problem...
22:01 walterbender's Sugar Digest is a good start, BTW. I could imagine various people creating "digests" for parts of the community.
22:01 pflores silbe: I agree it's very hard. I think the first step would be agreeing some standard tags
22:01 you think it could be possible?
22:02 silbe E.g. someone pointing out interesting teaching related topics on planet.sl.o by posting to iaep.
22:02 pflores walterbender: what you think?
22:02 silbe pflores: what do you mean by tag? How would they be used?
22:02 walterbender pflores: I'd love contributions to the Digest and to the Planet... we are missing so many cool blogs from teachers
22:04 pflores would it make sense using some kind of hashtags in the mailing lists to aggregate the information later?
22:04 silbe I'm not sure automatic aggregation would work well enough to be worth it.
22:05 pflores walterbender: The question is: how to make it? Should teachers mail you when they have a cool post? should we add all the teacher's blogs to the planet? I really don't think it scales very much...
22:06 silbe: why?
22:06 silbe And where would you put them? We can use [topic] tags in the subject (already do so for some topics and even haven filters defined so people can receive or filter out certain topics), but multiple tags would blow up the line.
22:07 pflores I would really love to have a centralized aggregator where I could see at a glance what's happening around in the community :)
22:07 silbe pflores: ^^. And a single tag often doesn't describe a post well enough.
22:07 pflores: everybody would love to. It's the holy grail. :)
22:07 pflores :)
22:08 how about using something like the twitter approach, putting #hach before keywords?
22:09 walterbender pflores: I used to advertise for things to include in the Digest, but very rarely got anything. I try to cherry-pick from interesting posts, blogs, etc., but it is a lot of work.
22:09 pflores Why not an aggregator for feeds, mailing lists archives, tweets... ?
22:09 JT4sugar My suggestion for information around Teaching is to have information separated into Age/Grade level. A 2nd grade teacher will not be looking for same information as 5th grade. IAEP is to general for them to use directly in class rooms. If forums were built around using Sugar at particular age level more teachers would be apt to engage because info is applicable to their age students
22:10 silbe FWIW, I'd like us to talk more about who we want to involve and how to achieve that. I feel we're still a touch too technology centered, as usual for us.
22:10 pflores walterbender: That's exactly my point: tools for automating this kind of work... and make it more customized to each user's profile...
22:11 silbe pflores: how exactly would that aggregator work (from the users PoV, not the implementation)? What would it show?
22:11 pflores JT4sugar: +1 that's the kind of "standard tags" I'd love to have
22:12 silbe JT4sugar: interesting idea.
22:12 JT4sugar pflores, Think of building your system from classroom back to developer as opposed to developer to classroom
22:12 pflores silbe: how abut something like a twitter window, with links?
22:13 silbe pflores: no idea, I've never used twitter.
22:13 (so please be more specific ;) )
22:14 pflores silbe: having quick headlines of each topic
22:14 let me give you an example
22:14 silbe is starting to feel he's leading the discussion and everyone else just answers, and feels bad about it...
22:15 pflores having in a web page the subject lines of the topics that are being discussed in all the mailing lists
22:16 with additional info
22:16 like the keywords of each
22:16 silbe pflores: the problem is that threads usually start with something that might match the subject, but often evolve into a totally different (and potentially interesting) topic without anyone changing the subject line. So an automatic aggregator only captures a small part of what's actually discussed.
22:17 pflores and easily follow links to see other threads that talk about the same issues
22:17 silbe pflores: where would those keywords come from?
22:17 pflores silbe: that's why I find keywords impotant
22:17 FGrose Community needs to share/maintain list of known blogs, so bloggers can screen and promote what they find interesting (adding to the 'network effect').  And in their forwards, they can apply tags.
22:18 JT4sugar pflores, How about a web page for each grade/age level-helps teachers and then an aggregator for others who just want big picture overview
22:18 pflores FGrose +1 !!
22:19 JT4sugar: That would be excelent. For educational issues is quite simple to use a standard set of tags
22:21 I think some good ideas are arising here
22:22 #idea think the meeting has been long enough, maybe we should summarize somehow what was discussed and continue next week
22:22 silbe agreed :)
22:23 can you change #topic?
22:23 pflores #topic summary
22:24 silbe #action silbe will write up an overview of how his imagined "seamless login" system is going to work, so others are able to join the effort if they like to.
22:25 pflores We discussed about CAS, metadata, aggregating info and search tools (topics 1, 2, 4 and 5). They all look important and should be discussed more.
22:26 #action pflores will summarize some of the ideas discussed and send it to iaep
22:26 walterbender: can you tell some headlines of your #6 idea?
22:26 CanoeBerry: some feedback?
22:27 FGrose walterbender: can you point to links to "so many cool blogs"?
22:31 JT4sugar By the way we have a MIT MarketLab presentation on Friday 28th at 3:30pmEST. The Team will be relaying their semester long research and recommendations for Sugar Labs(Teacher awareness was key theme) if anyone is interested in listening in email me: jtis4stx@hotmail.com for call in# Pablo think this would be very good for your efforts
22:32 silbe sounds rather interesting. Will there be a summary and/or recordings for those who can't join in?
22:32 walterbender FGrose: I can dig up some... the teachers in Caacupe, for example...
22:33 pflores JT4sugar: I'm interested!
22:33 silbe walterbender: maybe you could put that list on the wiki, with a short summary of what topics each blog has covered in the past?
22:33 JT4sugar silbe, They are setting up Google site with all research and findings which we should get links on Friday-Dont believe a recording but we will be pushing for a wider community presentation if they are willing
22:34 walterbender silbe: it is a bit more random than that. I stumble across blogs from teachers now and again and always invite them to add them to the planet... doesn't often happen though
22:34 silbe and maybe suggest them to join the SL planet - not sure what's on topic there, but I guess most would qualify.
22:35 JT4sugar: what exactly is a "Google site" in this context?
22:35 is totally out of touch with the "Web 2.0" world
22:36 walterbender: I could still imagine it to be useful. But maybe you're right and it's too random.
22:36 FGrose collect the pool of orbiting comets that might get promoted to "planets"...
22:36 JT4sugar silbe, Believe it will be a google docs site with all research, interviews, etc. but I haven't seen it yet so not totally sure of full makeup
22:36 m_anish_afk is now known as m_anish
22:37 silbe JT4sugar: ok, so everyone would be able to download finished research papers, raw materials like interview minutes etc.? That would be awesome.
22:37 pflores #endmeeting
22:37 meeting Meeting ended Wed Jan 26 22:37:56 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
22:37 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-26T21:06:33.html
22:37 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-01-26T21:06:33
22:38 JT4sugar silbe, Believe they plan to make it publicly available so all community members-so yes
22:38 silbe JT4sugar: great!
22:38 walterbender silbe, FGrose: an example: http://xo-cesaraguero.blogspot.com/
22:39 dfarning is now known as dfarning_afk
22:39 walterbender y http://formando-artistas.blogspot.com/
22:39 silbe walterbender: I don't understand a single word, but I think it would be useful. Show off what people are already doing with Sugar.
22:40 walterbender silbe: agreed... and there are hundreds of these out there
22:40 silbe walterbender: wow, I didn't know!
22:41 walterbender http://miguela-xo.blogspot.com/
22:41 silbe that one I think I've seen before, it sounds and looks familiar...
22:42 walterbender http://aprendiendodelaxo.blogspot.com/
22:43 http://xomimundo.blogspot.com/[…]del-paraguay.html
22:44 silbe too bad planet.sugarlabs.org is web only. For single blogs I have rss2email, but planet.sl.o doesn't offer an (aggregated) RSS feed. :(
22:44 walterbender http://www.ceibalflorida.blogspot.com/
22:45 http://www.recursoscompartidos38.blogspot.com/
22:45 silbe let's at least collect them in minutes...
22:45 #startmeeting
22:45 meeting Meeting started Wed Jan 26 22:45:38 2011 UTC. The chair is silbe. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
22:45 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
22:46 silbe #topic some random teacher blogs related to Sugar
22:46 #link http://xo-cesaraguero.blogspot.com/
22:46 #link http://formando-artistas.blogspot.com/
22:46 #link http://miguela-xo.blogspot.com/
22:46 #link http://aprendiendodelaxo.blogspot.com/
22:46 #link http://xomimundo.blogspot.com/[…]del-paraguay.html
22:46 #link http://www.ceibalflorida.blogspot.com/
22:46 #link http://www.recursoscompartidos38.blogspot.com/
22:47 walterbender #link http://bloguentarios.blogspot.com/ (a different sort of blog)
22:48 satellit_afk walterbender: I copied the links to gedit also FYI
22:48 bernie if someone wants to do the work of setting up a planet instance, i have some ~20 feeds of blogs of teachers in paraguay
22:48 satellit_afk 7
22:48 8,,,
22:49 can we make a wiki page?
22:49 walterbender some I link to from the TurtleArt page
22:50 tch <tch!~tch@190.52.156.152> has joined #sugar-meeting
22:50 FGrose seed page: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Blogs
22:50 satellit_afk put it on left bar on wiki?
22:51 walterbender FGrose: we should auto include everything already in the planet
22:54 silbe pflores: BTW, I suppose you're already hooking up with CanoeBerry? He's doing awesome work on the OLPC side.
22:54 I guess that's it for the links...
22:54 #endmeeting
22:54 meeting Meeting ended Wed Jan 26 22:54:28 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
22:54 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-26T22:45:38.html
22:54 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-01-26T22:45:38
22:54 pflores silbe: Yes of course
22:55 silbe good good
22:58 satellit_afk is now known as satellit_
22:58 silbe wow, I didn't know tomeu and erikos are already working on replacing HippoCanvas with GTK containers (required for accessibility): http://erikos.sweettimez.de/?p=999
22:59 we definitely don't know enough about what everybody else is working on (or at least I don't)...
23:00 walterbender silbe: tomeu had an interesting blog post as well
23:00 silbe walterbender: the hackfest one from today/yesterday? yep, definitely interesting.
23:02 bernie: can you trick the developers of our planet software into providing an RSS feed that I could use with rss2email (so I don't have to poll a web page)? ;)
23:03 satellit_ silbe: pbrobinson told me today on IRC he has to do some work on the entire f15 python stack for soas. FYI
23:04 silbe satellit_: yeah, read that. I tend to catch a lot of what's going on on IRC, but I'm (almost) totally disconnected from the web world (blogs, twitter, Facebook, ...). :-/
23:06 bernie silbe: our planet does not provide an rss feed of its own?
23:06 silbe: it's planet venus... i thought it would do it
23:07 silbe bernie: I can't find one.
23:07 bernie silbe: oh, i think it's another template... one i did not bother using
23:07 silbe: pls, have a look
23:07 silbe I feared that answer :)
23:17 bernie: http://planet.sugarlabs.org/rss20.xml appears to work. I'll try it out (i.e. add it to rss2email).
23:19 bernie silbe: there should also be an atom feed (atom is supposedly better than rss)
23:20 silbe bernie: I'm not sure rss2email supports atom feeds. No part of the documentation mentions it.
23:20 neither does the source contain the string "atom"
23:22 ah, but the package description does mention it.
23:22 bernie: what's supposed to be better about atom feeds?
23:46 bernie silbe: i'm not sure what's better in atom, but i got this impression by googling around
23:47 silbe bernie: hmmk. :)
23:48 pflores has quit IRC
23:48 bernie silbe: or maybe zatoichi?
23:49 silbe bernie: is that yet another feed dialect?
23:51 FGrose has left #sugar-meeting

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