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#sugar-meeting, 2011-01-08

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13:53 bernie m_anish, dfarning, silbe, alsroot: do we have a meeting in 10 mins?
13:54 silbe bernie: I think so, yes.
13:55 m_anish bernie, silbe yep
13:55 dfarning bernie, did you hear your phone ring about 10 minutes ago?
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13:59 bernie dfarning: yes, in the pocket of my jacket
14:00 dfarning: was it you? :)
14:00 m_anish hello everyone :)
14:00 dfarning bernie:)
14:00 m_anish should we start?
14:00 bernie tch: hola
14:00 m_anish: ok for me
14:00 dfarning m_anish, +1
14:00 tch bernie: berunarudo chan, haha
14:01 bernie tch: deme
14:01 m_anish #startmeeting
14:01 meeting Meeting started Sat Jan  8 14:01:34 2011 UTC. The chair is m_anish. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:01 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:01 silbe Happy new year everyone!
14:02 m_anish silbe, happy new yr!
14:03 should we start with discussing what has everyone been up to and then move to py related topic?
14:03 dfarning m_anish, will be leading the meetings for the next couple of week - as we will be driven by the need of PyEduca for dextrose:)
14:03 silbe m_anish: sounds good to me. get back in sync and then start the open-ended topic.
14:04 m_anish silbe, okay, lets start with you :)
14:05 silbe As you've probably noticed, I announced the new review process Simon and I agreed on. Since there was no opposition, I consider it in place.
14:06 dfarning silbe, yes that was a huge step in the right direction.
14:07 silbe So we should be good now for "external" patches (as both Simon and I can ACK them); let's hope it works well for patches from Simon and me, too (since we need to ACK each others patches). ;)
14:09 m_anish silbe, sounds great! what are your plans for the next 1-2 weeks!
14:09 silbe Over the "holidays" I've worked on the Dextrose-3 patch set. Finally got wifi disconnect working yesterday. Quozl's patch wasn't enough, a recent question resp. the answer to it by somebody else on the NetworkManager list explained what we were doing wrong so I could now fix it.
14:09 bernie silbe: i'm very happy. this fixes a very longstanding problem
14:10 silbe There are a few outstanding issues, but most patches that I intend to land in mainline soon are in good shape now.
14:11 This doesn't include the accessibility series yet. I haven't made my mind up on it as I don't know enough about what exactly it's expected to solve and why we need to patch Sugar for that.
14:12 backup support is undecided as well
14:12 bernie silbe: tch is now in the right place to ask!
14:12 silbe: note that users in paraguay liked the accessibility patches very much
14:13 silbe bernie, tch: Great! I'll get back to you soon.
14:13 bernie silbe: especially the virtual keyboard and the fonts (for teachers who can't see well)
14:13 m_anish just curious, is there a need for separate branches for the patches we intend to upstream and those we don't?
14:13 silbe the plan for the near future is to continue working on the Dextrose-3 patch set#
14:14 m_anish: we already have that branch: mainline/master. <egdr>
14:16 bernie: there's a bit of confusion around virtual keyboards (what solutions are out there, who uses them, etc.). We should talk about that later, too.
14:17 Collaboration is pretty broken in 0.90/0.91, BTW. I expect that it will take a specialist a few weeks full-time to clean it up. :-/
14:17 bernie silbe: yes, ideally we'd want something properly integrated with the gnome accessibility stack... but I don't think we have the resources to do the proper thing
14:18 silbe bernie: actually I'd hope that we could just use something the Gnome people already wrote. But let's talk about that after the meeting.
14:18 bernie silbe: without sayamindu, the current virtual keyboard, as limited as it might be, is probably going to be the best thing we have for a long time.
14:18 silbe *hoped
14:18 bernie silbe: oh, there's something we could reuse? GURAIT-TO!
14:19 silbe: for collaboration, perhaps quozl would be interested?
14:19 silbe bernie: it's just a hope. I don't know what actually exists.
14:20 m_anish silbe, bernie +1 for after-meeting discussion :), tch can you let us in on your uy work :)
14:20 silbe bernie: has he worked with Telepathy before? I spent some time myself debugging, but without knowledge of how Telepathy works, it's quite hard to figure out.
14:23 let's talk about that later as well and continue with the meeting. I already took much more time than I wanted to. :)
14:23 bernie silbe: I'm probably wrong... he's been hacking a lot on *networking*, not collaboration
14:23 tch m_anish: of course, I will spend the next week at the plain ceibal offices. My main goal is to help them with their dextrose bug reports (since they have been doing real testing lately)..
14:23 plan*
14:24 m_anish: there are also more things i could do there, like convince them to stick with dextrose2 as close as possible ;)
14:26 m_anish tch, do you think there are patches in uy that py dxo-2 builds could use?
14:27 alsroot m_anish: any progress w/ gathering items for TODO-temp?
14:27 tch m_anish: that is something i will find out there :)
14:27 bernie tch: fantastic
14:28 alsroot m_anish: tch was talking also about auto bugs reporting
14:28 m_anish alsroot, alas, not much, i was supposed to get the list yesterday from rralcala (roberto), but didn't :/
14:28 alsroot, mukesh_dce and tch are exploring that :)
14:28 tch yeah that is an important topic IMHO..
14:29 I am trying to figure out if we can use ABRT
14:29 silbe tch: BTW, has there been any progress on your notifications stuff?
14:29 bernie alsroot: I just hope we don't end up like this: http://lwn.net/Articles/422062/
14:29 tch silbe: yeah, i did not updated the feature page but i think i got a design (implemented) that won't hurt anyone haha
14:30 alsroot bernie: in what case?
14:30 m_anish silbe, fyi, we have the notification stuff integrated in dx2-py builds
14:31 bernie alsroot: for receiving bug reports and ignoring them
14:31 tch bernie: i think receiving them is a great step forward
14:32 alsroot bernie: I was thinking about simple HTTP POST reports that need to be sorted by dextrose team
14:32 m_anish bernie, alsroot tch if and when we have abrt up, we'll need someone to triage. without it, it wouldn't make much sense
14:32 alsroot ..like it weas done in Log
14:32 bernie tch: as long as we don't give the users the false impression that we're going to do something about it
14:32 tch: because, currently, we've not been working on fixing any of these bugs: http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/wiki/Dextrose
14:32 silbe m_anish: hmm. I'm a bit worried that by exposing users to the current, not-yet-agreed-on design, we're forcing upstream to keep using it because users will complain about UI changes later. Similar to how OLPC is forcing us to keep supporting their new metadata storage format for external media...
14:33 bernie alsroot: I think mtd was working on something like that
14:33 or wadeb
14:34 tch bernie: well, i think we are building our ground to start tackling some of them, :)
14:34 bernie alsroot: http://logcollect.sugarlabs.org/
14:34 (broken)
14:34 alsroot m_anish: tch: anyway, we need to have some kind list to duscuss priorities (and level of impls), m_anish: could you ping us (/me and tch) when you get new items
14:34 tch bernie: but i understand your point and its valid.
14:34 bernie tch: cool
14:34 m_anish alsroot, +1 will ping
14:35 silbe something abrt-like would probably be OK, as it only collects segfaults (which are almost always rather severe bugs).
14:35 alsroot bernie: ^, particualar bugs reporting might be pretty different, I'd prefer to implement as simple as possible and accoring to the TODO items for 1 Feb dead line
14:35 bernie silbe: do you have more info on this metadata thing?
14:35 silbe: I had overlooked it
14:35 m_anish silbe, i think we're just in the planning stages re: abrt and ther would be a mail to sugar-devel before we start to write code
14:35 tch, what do you think?
14:35 silbe as for easier reporting of other bugs, I too am worried about us drowning in reports. We already can't keep up with the existing reports.
14:36 m_anish: the nice thing about the abrt stuff is that it's invisible to the user, so upstream doesn't need to care about it.
14:36 bernie silbe: yup. we need someone to act as PM and start dispatching the bugs to developers for fixing them
14:37 alsroot m_anish: for me abrt is looking overkill, we might need only python logs, but once more, it depends on TODO for 1 Feb
14:37 silbe bernie: just take a look at the (somewhat) recent changes in sugar/mainline/sucrose-0.84
14:38 bernie silbe: in fedora, abrt has a UI and requires several (easy) steps to file a bug. like, for example, describing the context and approving the traceback for privacy issues
14:38 silbe bernie: hmm.
14:38 bernie silbe: so 0.84, like dextrose, contains non-upstreamed patches now?
14:39 m_anish bernie, +1 for PM needed
14:39 bernie silbe: not long ago, dsd was convinced that it wasn't the case
14:41 silbe bernie: It seems so, yes. Though technically it's "upstream", but not in the latest development version, which makes it even worse.
14:41 E.g. Debian packages new 0.84 each time Simon pushes one out.
14:42 tch bernie: should we try to get some consensus about the automatic bug reporting?
14:42 bernie silbe: maybe we should tell erikos not to do it then
14:43 silbe: he can create a 0.84-olpc branch if he wants to
14:43 SMParrish_mobile <SMParrish_mobile!~Android@> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:44 bernie tch: I'm in favor, but not now. it's a lot of work to integrate it, and we already don't have enough resources to fix all the bugs already in trac
14:44 tch: also, see this: http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1439
14:45 tch: there was already some work done, but not with abrt
14:45 m_anish bernie, +1, tch maybe keep it as low priority (time wise)
14:46 tch bernie: i guess that is what alsroot was thinking about
14:47 silbe tch, bernie: how about doing "debug" builds that automatically report everything to a build-time configured server (=> deployments can use their own server and forward to us). No UI and no privacy issues for regular users either.
14:47 m_anish alsroot, can you sync us up on ur work of past few weeks :), then I guess we can discuss py for a bit :)
14:48 bernie silbe: can we reuse wadeb's patches for logcollect?
14:48 silbe: it seems easier to integrate than abrt to me
14:49 alsroot is working on http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/P[…]form_Team/Roadmap plan, it doesn't relate directly to upcomming dextrose release
14:49 bernie silbe: for example, abrt supports only bugzilla, we'd have to write a plugin for trac
14:49 alsroot, silbe: are the two of you coordinating on these upstream efforts?
14:49 silbe bernie: I would have expected abrt to be able to just run in daemon mode with minimal configuration. But maybe I'm expecting too much of it...
14:49 alsroot bernie: for bugs reporting case?
14:50 tch silbe: i was expecting the same..
14:50 bernie silbe: yes, it does... but then it needs to bring up a UI to file the actual bugs.
14:50 silbe bernie: if you're talking about http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/P[…]form_Team/Roadmap , then no, I still don't get this "sweets" stuff.
14:50 bernie silbe: it needs also packagekit to download the debuginfos
14:50 SMParrish_mobile Silbe  abrt is a work in progress  i can talk to the devs at fudcon and see about trac support
14:50 silbe bernie: so it can't just dump a tarball on some server?
14:51 SMParrish_mobile: hey, nice to see you!
14:51 tch SMParrish_mobile:  :)
14:51 alsroot bernie: in my mind pushing it to upstream is too early, we need to test it in the field and upcomming dextrose release is a good chance
14:51 SMParrish_mobile thanks  glad to be back
14:51 m_anish silbe, it should be able to, otw, we don't use it :)
14:51 silbe SMParrish_mobile: the simpler the better I'd say. No Trac or other special tool, just HTTP upload or email.
14:51 bernie SMParrish_mobile: cool. our usecase is slightly different from the gnome desktop one. we want bug reports to be collected silently, and we might not need to download debuginfos, as we mostly have only python code.
14:52 m_anish SMParrish_mobile, hola!
14:52 bernie alsroot: would would have to be done?
14:52 m_anish alsroot, btw, we're not targeting abrt for dx2 feb-1 release
14:52 alsroot m_anish: for what date then, dfarning was talkink about 1 Feb
14:52 bernie alsroot: dextrose2 is due in ~2 months, I'm afraid we missed this train
14:52 silbe bernie: isn't abrt just for segfaults? Those happen at C level and need debug infos.
14:53 bernie silbe: it also does python tracebacks
14:53 silbe bernie: which would be another argument pro special "debug" builds
14:53 m_anish alsroot, abrt is a good to have feature, not a necessity for dx2-py initial release IMHO
14:53 bernie silbe: I actually wonder how it notices about those for processes running independently
14:53 m_anish Can I start to discuss a bit abt py-roadmap?
14:53 silbe bernie: interesting. All ones or just those that abort the process?
14:53 bernie m_anish: yup
14:54 alsroot m_anish: in my mind abrt is overkill, if we are getting core dumps it is something too bad, and most likely w/ sys libs not for our code
14:54 bernie silbe: I think the latter
14:54 silbe m_anish: sorry. We'll discuss abrt later.
14:54 dfarning SMParrish_mobile, will restart as PM.  he took some time off for family reasons.  We will work together next week to ensure a smoother hand off in case of unexpected absences.
14:54 SMParrish_mobile Bernie   abrt is good at catching crashes in c code   not sure hiw good the python support is atm
14:54 alsroot m_anish: just posting activity logs via HTTP should be pretty enough and easy to implement to have it in dextrose-2
14:55 m_anish alsroot, makes sense
14:55 anyway, re py, the schools here open on 22nd feb...
14:55 bernie silbe: for example: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/sh[…]bug.cgi?id=666928
14:56 m_anish initially we were planning on having a release on 1st feb, have it tested by the edu team/formadores/kids in 1-1.5 weeks... and we fixing the issues that crop up then...
14:56 bernie alsroot: would you like to work on reviving wadeb's logcollect patch then? it's here: http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1439
14:56 alsroot m_anish: anyway, I'm waiting for you ping to discuss dates and TODO for dextrose-2 and prioritize tasks
14:57 satellit_ is now known as satellit_afk
14:57 silbe alsroot: FWIW, it's only those severe cases I'd be interested in in the first place. We already have enough other bugs to work on. And sadly, crashes actually still seem to happen sometimes for me (though I'm not sure exactly what is crashing and how, i.e. if it's even something abrt would catch). :-/
14:57 m_anish but it makes much more sense to have 2-3 iterations of test-release than one in terms of catching bugs (or have iterations in parallel)
14:58 alsroot silbe: for core dumps we can all time switch to more personal/detailed workflow
14:58 ..to work w/ bugs reporter
14:58 m_anish so we're actually making a release on this tuesday and have them tested out... meanwhile i'll get a list of priority task soon that we need to fix
14:59 tch m_anish: +1
14:59 bernie silbe: I think you're hitting the python gc bug. I have reported it a dozen times with abrt but nobody cares:
14:59 m_anish tch's notification, yum updater, microformat upd would be major additions to the build on top of current dx2
14:59 bernie https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bu[…]sification=Fedora
14:59 m_anish (plus 2 patches from tch )
14:59 alsroot bernie: yup, something like #1439 but maybe for dextrose it might be more implicit
15:00 tch m_anish: we also need to include my script to disable the mesh after sleep/week :)
15:00 m_anish I plan to keep a TODO-py page on wiki.sl.o
15:00 silbe has anyone tried pgf's kernel patch for disabling mesh altogether?
15:00 m_anish also, slightly unrelated, maybe we need to review http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Dextrose/TODO
15:00 or http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Dextrose/TODO-temp
15:01 alsroot m_anish: it act I was thinking about that when we will get more TODO items to work on
15:01 ..in fact
15:01 bernie m_anish: if there's no information loss, you can rename TODO-temp on top of the old TODO page
15:01 m_anish alsroot, yup
15:02 bernie, there's no info loss (only a repeat entry is removed)
15:02 bernie m_anish: ok then, let's replace the page. I think you did a great work, btw
15:03 m_anish bernie, will remove/replace, I guess that TODO is the dextrose(-3) roadmap?
15:03 oh, one more thing...
15:04 since we have the yum updater up we'll be having 2 (or three) repos : release, testing etc.
15:05 silbe BTW, we need to involve upstream early on for UI changes. We had too much wasted effort because upstream didn't agree with what Dextrose came up with.
15:05 m_anish and need to figure out a process to move rpm's from testing to repo, and align it with dx-mainline
15:05 s/testing to repo/testing to release/
15:05 bernie m_anish: yes... we could also rename TODO to Roadmap... but roadmaps need to have dates attached to them imho
15:06 m_anish: like alsroot's roadmap: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/P[…]form_Team/Roadmap
15:06 m_anish: or our roadmap for dextrose 1: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Dextrose/Roadmap
15:06 tch silbe: if we can speed up the time required to get a consensus, sure.
15:08 silbe: the backup thing is a great example,  it took months just to not get a consensus..
15:08 silbe tch: our Design Team consists of volunteers with unrelated day jobs. So it's expected that it takes a fair amount of time. That's why it's so important to talk about UI changes as early as possible.
15:08 m_anish bernie, we could perhaps plan a roadmap (but our timeline is quite short, schools open 22 feb)
15:08 bernie silbe: until now, upstream was very dysfunctional and disconnected from the needs of deployments. there was no way dextrose or olpc could get something designed and implemented while working with upstream.
15:09 silbe: now, with you and erikos on the helm, I'm confident that something will change
15:09 tch silbe: yeah, i understand that, is just that sometimes deployments can't just sit and wait until consensus arrives, they will just do it..
15:09 bernie silbe: for UI design, I'm still very dissatisfied. look at my proposal for a super-trivial about box: it's been stuck for 2 weeks already.
15:09 tch silbe: and we need to take that into account if we want them to keep them together with mainstream
15:10 silbe bernie: re. the about box, consider that the past two weeks were "holidays", i.e. most people were busy with other stuff.
15:10 bernie silbe: making developers wait weeks on consensus is a productivity killer, we must stop doing this in sugar-devel.
15:11 m_anish what i'm hoping eventually is that we can use the testing branch to beta test new features (that _may_ not be requirements from the edu team) and keeping this branch shared across more than one deployment
15:11 bernie silbe: true. I just pinged the RFC to see if something moves
15:11 dfarning before we worry to much about design let's give silbe and simon time to prove that patch management is work
15:11 bernie m_anish: hopefully, yes.
15:11 alsroot bernie: "we must stop doing this", /me does excatly that all time :)
15:12 silbe bernie: in general, I think we'd be much better off if we discussed it early with upstream and _then_ implement it, instead of the other way round. We don't necessarily need perfect consensus, but we should at least agree on the general way before it's already implemented and too hard to change.
15:12 dfarning for the short time dextrose will differ from upstream.... we will start working with OLPC/SL to fill the UI designer gap.
15:12 bernie alsroot: :)
15:13 m_anish is done with is list of py topics :)
15:13 bernie silbe: I agree. in the past, starting UI design discussions failed all the time... now it may be different.
15:13 silbe dfarning: the problem with OLPC/SL taking over the design job is that we get inconsistent with each other and force upstream to take our stuff because users get used to it.
15:14 bernie dfarning: yes, that would help a lot.
15:15 silbe anyway, I don't expect everything to get perfect overnight. All I want for now is that we start UI design early on (way before a developer starts working on a task!) and try to get upstream involved, even if it doesn't end up reaching consensus.
15:15 bernie silbe: true
15:16 silbe: true^2
15:16 dfarning silbe, yes we still need to figure it out....  but as long as we are moving forward we can work out problems as we go.
15:16 silbe great! m_anish, sorry for interrupting again (it was at least triggered by the TODO list ;) ).
15:17 m_anish silbe, bernie could we elaborate more details on the TODO wiki page and have them run through sugar-devel (something like batch reviewing or UI proposals)?
15:17 s/or UI/for UI/
15:17 silbe m_anish: sounds good. let's review the list on IRC first and dextrose/sugar-devel later.
15:17 (but after the meeting ;) )
15:18 bernie (for the record, I think that the dextrose team always did involve upstream early, but failed to get consensus and ended up doing our own thing instead of blocking forever)
15:18 m_anish silbe, +1
15:18 bernie silbe: +1
15:18 m_anish bernie, true!
15:18 tch bernie: can't agree more :P haha
15:18 m_anish (do we have more topics to discuss?)
15:20 011
15:20 010
15:20 001
15:20 000
15:20 #endmeeting
15:20 meeting Meeting ended Sat Jan  8 15:20:20 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
15:20 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-08T14:01:34.html
15:20 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-01-08T14:01:34
15:20 m_anish :)
15:20 SMParrish_mobile has quit IRC
15:20 m_anish right, can we go through the list now ... http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Dextrose/TODO-temp
15:21 bernie -> breakfast
15:21 m_anish or maybe later?
15:21 bernie ah, yes
15:21 m_anish will be gone for 2 hrs after 40 mins
15:21 bernie ok, gimme 2 minutes to take a bowl of cereals
15:21 m_anish bernie, sure :)
15:21 silbe bernie: bon apo :)
15:23 tch silbe: btw, i completely agree with you on ABRT usage,
15:24 dfarning m_anish, excellent job keeping things moving forward and on track.
15:24 tch m_anish:
15:24 m_anish: on the list haha
15:25 bernie m_anish: yeah, you're a great chairman
15:25 m_anish :)
15:25 tch m_anish: +1 haha,
15:25 bernie oh, it's snowing again
15:26 silbe is sad that SL lacks a functional Design Team. It's the most important aspect of Sugar.
15:26 m_anish bernie, we're sweating 'profusely' at the beertarium :)
15:26 bernie silbe: I still think we should push a dictator :-)
15:27 silbe bernie: the problem is that we can't agree on a dictator :) :-/
15:27 bernie silbe: I'd like garycmartin, even though we don't agree on anything
15:28 silbe bernie: AFAICT he doesn't have enough time to be a Sugar design dictator.
15:28 dirakx has quit IRC
15:28 walterbender silbe, bernie : there was no response to the offer of Gary and I to be Fructose maintainers, but we need that role filled as well.
15:28 bernie silbe: well, whoever is the most (pro)active in the design team should rule. and at this time gary is definitely more active than the others.
15:28 walterbender: I did not see it
15:28 walterbender: but I would certainly +1 it!
15:29 walterbender: at this time, I think that #1 problem in sugar land is lack of authority
15:29 dfarning silbe, now that you and simon have upstream maintainership fixed and anish/tch/alsroot are proving that deployment driven dextrose development will work, my primary 'development' focus will be UI design work flow.
15:29 bernie lack of consensus is a consequence of this
15:30 dfarning silbe, I can't promise anything useful:( but it is time to start trying:)
15:31 m_anish what do you think of these (1) Make activities work in Gnome without Sugar (controversial) (2) Make Gnome applications work seamlessly within Sugar (3) Integration with social networks
15:31 (4) Bidirectional Journal gateway for Gnome (I have no idea what it means)
15:31 silbe walterbender: I haven't got around to following up yet. The issue I had with it is that we don't have an actual definition of "Co-maintainer". Spell out what exactly you'd like to do and I'll (most likely) +1 it.
15:31 walterbender m_anish: #1 is not particularly controversial in terms of a goal...
15:31 m_anish (5) OS: "Panic key" to restore default settings for GNOME and Sugar
15:32 silbe dfarning: definitely looking forward to it.
15:32 m_anish walterbender, okay!
15:32 alsroot m_anish: (1) sounds more an non-dextrose-but-upstream feature and more for further sugar, I'm -1 for dextrose-2 (because it is undoeble)
15:33 walterbender silbe: We'd ACK patches and work with the Activity maintainers to get the patches in... much the way we already have been doing, informally
15:33 bernie m_anish: I think martin langhoff also wants (5)
15:33 m_anish alsroot, this list isn't particularly dx-2, its more or dx-3 or long term evolution :)
15:33 bernie m_anish: we should develop it jointly, if possible
15:33 alsroot: yup... maybe something you could work on?
15:33 alsroot m_anish: I think talking opnly about dextrose-2 makes more sense
15:33 silbe m_anish: re. "make activities work without Sugar": I don't think it's useful in general. It also raises the question: What exactly is Sugar and what does running _activities_ outside of it mean.
15:34 bernie walterbender: see? it *was* controversial! :-)
15:34 m_anish alsroot, hmm, what should be the focus of the wiki page then? (i'm not necessarily the one maintaining it)
15:34 will keep dedicated dx2-py list
15:35 alsroot bernie: yup, that also my region of interests :) but for future..
15:35 bernie silbe: several activities, including all of walter's have to add extra code to make sure they can also start from the command line without sugar running. the goal of (1) would be folding this code in sugar-toolkit
15:35 walterbender bernie: just because there is not consensus on its utility doesn't make it controversial in an of itself... but how we do it and how we allocate resources to it are controversial
15:35 bernie silbe: there's no reason why turtleart, physics, etc shouldn't be available also from gnome
15:36 silbe m_anish: re. "make gnome applications work seamlessly within Sugar": that's a long term goal. There are many steps towards better integration; it would be good to know which ones are most important.
15:36 walterbender bernie: I am not sure I do it in the best possible way, but I do find it useful even from the POV of maintenance and debugging
15:36 alsroot m_anish: so, what about sorting out current TODO-temp then?
15:36 bernie walterbender: yes, easier debugging would be a major benefit
15:36 tch alsroot: +1,
15:36 walterbender and it broadens the community of potential users and contributors... I got a lot of TA help because it ran in GNOME
15:36 silbe m_anish: re. "integration with social networks", I personally consider it a no-go. :)
15:37 tch m_anish: did roberto read the list already?
15:37 bernie silbe: this came from olpc some time ago (adam holt)
15:37 m_anish alsroot, yeah the list is a mixture of many different things. we need to sort out as well
15:37 tch, I don't think so.
15:37 walterbender silbe: I am not even sure what that one means...
15:37 alsroot m_anish: tch: lets make it dextrose-2 only..
15:37 bernie silbe: it's clearly a very long-term goal, but users would like to upload photos to flickr and things like that
15:37 silbe m_anish: re. "bidirectional Journal gateway": datastore-fuse provides that. It has a few bugs, but as nobody besides me seems to use it, I haven't spent any time on it recently.
15:38 tch alsroot: +1
15:38 walterbender but I would love to have a unified way for sharing projects on a server... I think this is really important to our mission and our growth
15:38 alsroot m_anish: I guess "Display lease info in.." is already in progress?
15:38 m_anish alsroot, okay, so we essentially need to pages, Dxo-2 and LTE (long term evolution :))
15:38 bernie silbe: we dropped that feature in dextrose 1 because paraguay decided to go without gnome
15:38 m_anish alsroot, in-progress, right
15:39 bernie m_anish: I think the list of TODO features for dxo2 is basically empty at this point
15:39 m_anish: we have less than 2 months left... just the time to finish integrating the pending features, test and fix bugs
15:39 m_anish bernie, Sugar: "Panic key" to force regenerating datastore index (hold both shifts on boot? hidden ctrl-r hotkey in the journal?) this was done right?
15:39 bernie m_anish: ok, this is a feature we may still want for dxo2
15:39 alsroot tch: do you work on "Clear and complete error messages.."?
15:40 tch m_anish: after this can you update the empty fields too :)?
15:40 bernie m_anish: yes, done.
15:40 m_anish tch, yeah!
15:40 bernie, okay!
15:40 bernie m_anish: ask quozl about the other panic key, he's been working on it
15:40 silbe walterbender: a good first step might be to check which of the Fructose activities have an active maintainer. I suppose that non-active maintainers would happily agree to "hand over" their activities.
15:41 tch alsroot: i would like  to consider that as part of the automatic bug reporting "solution pack"
15:41 bernie m_anish: I think he was doing something more complicated than "rm -rf .gnome .gconf .config", in the name of preserving data
15:41 m_anish tch, any idea re this? Updater similar to puppet (plain ceibal) ?
15:41 alsroot tch: actually I meant exactly that..
15:41 bernie m_anish: I'm not sure I agree with any argument which makes things more fragile in the name of preserving data
15:41 tch m_anish: guess that was replaced with our yum updater for dx2
15:42 bernie m_anish: they're clearly disconnected from the reality of techies reflashing laptops all the time because they become corrupt :-)
15:42 alsroot tch: do you work/planing on that system?
15:42 bernie m_anish: regarding the puppet thing, plan ceibal told me that *currently* they do have a way to run shell scripts on all machines from remote
15:42 m_anish: they wanted to keep that
15:43 m_anish: but now that we have a yum updarer, they could do that by adding special rpms with post-install scripts
15:43 m_anish tch, bernie i guess we're sticking with yum updater, so that item gets removed from the list?
15:43 bernie m_anish: so you can mark it done
15:43 m_anish bernie, s/removed/done, yep!
15:43 tch alsroot: nothing yet, but i am trying to figure out how we could achieve it..
15:44 m_anish "3G connection sharing in Sugar", "Automatically register to Schoolserver" and "Make Schoolserver visible in neighbor view"
15:44 alsroot tch: whats your current plan?
15:44 m_anish damn, i need to run for my spanish lesson :/
15:44 tch m_anish: sharing 3G is done and already included in dx2
15:44 silbe bernie: users can already upload their photos and do all their "social network" fun like most of the users: using a browser. I don't see why Sugar needs special support for that.
15:45 alsroot m_anish: maybe we will meet on #dextrose later, to discuss TODO-temp
15:45 silbe reading through backlog - you're way too fast :-P
15:46 alsroot m_anish: when you will be back?
15:46 bernie silbe: they just want these things to become automated with "Share" buttons and the like
15:46 silbe: windows, osx and gnome applications are growing these web integration features
15:46 walterbender silbe: we need support for things like this: http://scratch.mit.edu/channel/featured
15:46 bernie silbe: sugar can't ignore the web. it's available even in deployments and, needless to say, users like it.
15:47 alsroot walterbender: you mean sharing objects?
15:47 m_anish alsroot, 2.5 hrs
15:47 alsroot tch: will you be around in 2.5h?
15:47 walterbender silbe: it wouldn't take a lot of work but it is too difficult to do on an Activity by Activity basis...
15:47 bernie silbe: ah yes... we could have *OUR* social networks: galleries of things created by kids with turtleart, etoys, scratch...
15:48 m_anish alsroot, we'll meet on #dextrose!
15:48 walterbender alsroot: sharing peer to peer we already have... but as we have discussed many times, being able to build a site to share projects associated with an Activity...
15:48 tch alsroot: actually, I was expecting to use ABRT and making a simple client for sugar..
15:48 alsroot: still not thinking about the UI specifications
15:48 walterbender alsroot: we had talked about an extension to ASLO, for example...
15:48 bernie silbe: anyway, it's a very long-term thing. especially now that the olpc intern for the social networks project did not happen
15:49 silbe bernie: do you know if the "datastore reindex" action is still useful since we landed the modified reindex triggering logic? I.e. has there recently been any case of datastore trouble where the reindex actually helped?
15:49 alsroot tch: if you want to know my opinion :), I'm for simmple HTTP POST and simple button "Report the bug" (maybe w/ additionla field to enter details) on failed activity diealog
15:49 walterbender alsroot: I have a hand-built site for TA: http://turtleartsite.appspot.com/ but upload only works from GNOME
15:50 bernie walterbender, m_anish, dfarning: I feel that we're fragmenting sugar development discussions too much by creating too many channels: #ac, #dextrose, #olpc-paraguay... couldn't we all live on #sugar, which is almost deserted these days?
15:50 walterbender alsroot: it is something we could easily generalize, given the datastore...
15:50 bernie: fine with me...
15:50 tch alsroot: i am not against it :) but lets talk to m_anish too
15:50 alsroot walterbender: I'm planing to keep ASLO-5 more flexible, ie, keep info about all sweets (activities, libs, apps), and having jobjects there
15:51 bernie channels are cheap, but what makes them useful is when they reach a critical mass of people talking on them
15:51 alsroot tch: ok, will discuss it on #dextrose in 2.5h when he will be online
15:51 walterbender alsroot: I don't know how to do the login using the Sugar public key
15:51 bernie otherwise, it's just the same of an IM
15:51 tch alsroot: you have my vote, i like the simplicity.. :)
15:51 bernie alsroot, tch: please use #sugar if you can :)
15:51 walterbender alsroot: otherwise, the rest is pretty straight forward on the Activity or Journal side
15:51 silbe tch: how does _sharing_ a 3G connection work in Sugar? (I don't have a 3G modem/phone that works with Linux, so can't test)
15:51 alsroot walterbender: we are on the road to have common login..
15:52 walterbender alsroot: then we are on the road to solving the problem... it is a fundamental issue in terms of pedagogy to be able to share and discuss the work...
15:52 tch silbe: i am using it here right now to give internet access to my parents haha, basically there is a button at the 3G palette which you toggle between private and neighbourhood  (like activity share)
15:53 it automatically creates a shared adhoc network
15:53 alsroot bernie: I was thinking about discussing dextrose-2 TODO
15:54 silbe bernie: tightly integrating with "the web" is something we need to be very careful of. Integrating with XS etc. isn't an issue, random web sites is. I've been told that in the US even IRC can cause legal trouble (some kind of "kids protection act"). :-/
15:54 bernie alsroot: yeah, but #sugar is very silent lately, there's no need to create a separate channel every time we want to discuss something :)
15:54 alsroot walterbender: anyway, for DoersEnv-1, ASLO-5 will a part of it and I was thinking about initial jobject charing (for now just uploading files in Browse)
15:54 bernie alsroot: I'm worried of fragmentation
15:55 silbe bernie: tighter integration with a.sl.o would probably be fine as well, yep.
15:55 tch bernie: letsa make a sugarfest at the beertarium again? ;)
15:55 alsroot bernie: ok, lets make #sugar more verbose :)
15:55 bernie silbe: yes, integrating with ad-hoc applications on the XS would also fall into the "social networks" definition
15:55 silbe: maybe the summary was a little bit too vague
15:55 walterbender alsroot: it should upload the thumbnail and description and keywords as well as the project data... and thus autoformat a simple visual browse function.
15:56 bernie silbe: you're just opposed to the mainstream social networks, I guess? facebook, twitter and all that crap?
15:56 alsroot walterbender: in fact, I dind't think about that much (since my main purpose is sharing of sweets)..
15:56 tch alsroot, bernie, silbe: is there any (already impleted way) to know if the last sugar session crashed?
15:57 + way
15:57 bernie silbe: don't get me wrong, I'm opposed myself too... I won't work on a facebook plugin... but I'd not be opposed to merging it if someone writes it
15:58 silbe: free software, imho, has no business in actively making it hard for users to use the things we disapprove, including facebook and proprietary software
15:58 walterbender tch: if there isn't, perhaps the easiest way to implement it is to write a cookie for a successful end of session... if the cookie is not there, the last session was a crash :)
15:59 bernie: free to be proprietary :P
15:59 alsroot bernie: my point in case of social integration, we shouldn't have monolitic system, if doers need it, they implement and share that impls (and DoersEnv is exactly about basis for that)
15:59 bernie walterbender: you wouldn't believe, rms agrees with me on this! :-)
15:59 silbe tch, alsroot: We could check the return code of the activity and trigger some "activity crashed" screen similar to the "launch failed" screen. That would be useful feedback even without the bug reporting integration...
16:00 walterbender bernie: I would not doubt it for a moment... it is completely in line with everything he has said about freedom
16:00 alsroot silbe: I was talking exactly about that :), just HTTP POST w/ logs on activitiy fail
16:00 silbe walterbender: what exactly do you mean re. "login using the Sugar public key"?
16:01 walterbender silbe: in the GNOME version of http://turtleartsite.appspot.com/ I have to log in with a dialog... no reason a Sugar user should ever have to do that...
16:01 silbe tch: (3G sharing) ah, interesting. How do you tell other systems to set the default route to you?
16:02 tch NM does all the magic since 0.7...
16:03 silbe: they just connect to the sharer adhoc network,
16:03 silbe bernie: I'm opposed to the mainstream social networks and wary of any others, though I see what use they can be. I just happen to also see the huge privacy issues associated with them, especially for centralised services (like Facebook etc. are).
16:04 tch: you might be able to check the return code of "sugar" in .xsession (or wherever Dextrose starts Sugar).
16:07 walterbender bernie: "free as in beer" See http://profootballtalk.nbcspor[…]st-field-sort-of/ :)
16:08 silbe walterbender: I'm working in that direction, but there are a few issues I haven't decided on / solved yet. Effectively the actual implementation of the P_IDENT protection in Bitfrost: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC[…]_identity_service
16:08 walterbender: the open questions are along the lines of "which activities should be allowed to use the users identity and in what way? How do they acquire that permission?"
16:09 tch time for a meal, ;) see you guys later
16:09 bernie silbe: while I agree with you (I self-host my photos, blog, email and wiki for this reason), I think we shouldn't try to prevent others from using social networks if they want to.
16:10 silbe: we actually *can't* prevent them to! it's free software after all...
16:10 walterbender silbe: I stopped working on it in the context of TA exactly because I was bumping up against these sorts of issues... I think we need to address it at the Sugar level and then let Activities opt in in some way.
16:10 bernie silbe: we can actually make their lives a little harder... by making our software needlessly harder to use with social networks
16:10 silbe walterbender: for Rainbow protected systems, there's also the question of how to actually do it. But with some luck that gets solved upstream (by the GnuPG folks) before Rainbow works well enough to be enabled on production systems.
16:11 bernie: I wouldn't try to actively prevent them from using whatever bad stuff they can think off. But integrately it tightly with Sugar is on the other end of the scale.
16:11 *integrating
16:11 walterbender bernie: do we make things needless hard to use Facebook or Twitter? I wasn't aware
16:12 silbe walterbender: sorry, loss of context. "Opt in" to what? Single Sign On or Journal object sharing servers?
16:12 bernie silbe: well, we could integrate a framework that would work with things such as aslo and the scratch gallery thing...
16:12 silbe: then, others will certainly add support for facebook and flickr
16:12 walterbender silbe: single sign on
16:13 bernie silbe: then, we could refuse to include it upstream, and deployments will have one more patch to apply to sugar...
16:13 silbe bernie: that sounds like a good plan :-P
16:14 walterbender bernie: are there any deployments asking for built-in flickr or facebook support?
16:14 bernie: as opposed to wanting some of these types of services on their school servers?
16:15 bernie walterbender: paraguay wanted to integrate with a social network popular in latin america
16:15 tch: what was the name?
16:15 walterbender: they want to create community at a larger scale than a single school
16:16 tch <writing while eating a very tasty milanesa> tocorre </writing while eating a very tasty milanesa>
16:16 bernie walterbender: for example, they want all teachers to exchange ideas and lesson plans
16:16 silbe walterbender: SSO still is unsolved for the vast majority of users, even corporate ones. There are a lot of rough edges, but if we focus on Sugar users and SL services, we might be able to "solve" it in the near to medium future. Most of the technology has been there for 10+ years (I actually had SSO working at home about that time), we "just" need to integrate all the pieces.
16:17 bernie walterbender: ah, yes. this one: http://www.tocorre.com/
16:17 silbe tch: bon apo :)
16:18 walterbender bernie: integrate how? can you not use tocorre from Browse already?
16:32 bernie walterbender: there was some agreement being made between tocorre and paraguay educa... don't know if it's still up in the air. rgs would know the details.
16:34 walterbender bernie: but you recall that something we do in Sugar makes this inordinately difficult for deployments?
16:38 silbe m_anish, tch, bernie, walterbender: I don't have much time left today (an hour and maybe a half). What do you think about continuing our TODO list discussion tomorrow? Or would you prefer to continue on dextrose@ instead?
16:38 bernie walterbender: they say that uploading 10 photos requires 10 visits to the journal
16:38 walterbender: all photo management applications let you do this with one click
16:39 silbe bernie: so what lacks is good bulk upload support?
16:39 (I've already suspected this, BTW)
16:39 bernie silbe: ok to continue on dextrose@ and sugar-devel@ for me
16:39 silbe: bye!
16:39 silbe bernie: not going yet, just don't have enough time for a thorough review of the todo list
16:40 bernie silbe: yes, bulk operations wuld be an important addition to the journal
16:43 silbe bernie: they would certainly be in general. as for uploads, HTML makes it not exactly easy: forms only support uploading single files. You can add multiple file inputs in the same form (either beforehand or using JavaScript), but there's no way to allow the user to choose multiple files at once => we can't just extend the Object Chooser to select multiple files.
16:44 bernie: instead of working with other parties (browser and server vendors, W3C) to enhance the standard, most sites publish "bulk upload tools". :-/
16:44 bernie silbe: it's mostly a limitation of http... facebook, flick'r and others solve it in two ways: special purpose browser plugins and integration with desktop applications
16:45 silbe: I think that html5 has done something (but not enough) to improve the situation of bulk uploads
16:45 silbe: ah, a third way is to let users upload zip archives (seen on flickr). we don't support that in sugar.
16:45 silbe bernie: I suppose you mean html, not http. The only thing that's missing is a way to indicate that an html forms file input is for multiple files instead of a single one...
16:46 bernie: we support uploading zips, we just lack an activity to create the zip :)
16:46 bernie: so maybe a good intermediary step would be multi-select support in Object Chooser + a zip activity
16:47 bernie: do you have a pointer re. html5 vs. bulk upload support?
16:50 bernie silbe: http://stackoverflow.com/quest[…]e-chrome-chromium
16:50 <input type="file" name="dragupload[]" multiple="multiple"
16:50  onchange="if (this.value) document.getElementById('uploadform').submit();" />
16:52 silbe https://developer.mozilla.org/[…]OM/Input.multiple
16:52 that's the interesting part
16:53 so it appears we are already half-way there (ignoring the fact that it might not yet be standardised yet)
16:53 bernie silbe: http://www.plupload.com/example_all_runtimes.php
16:53 silbe we use the Mozilla engine, so we "just" need to add multi-selection support to the Object Chooser and wire it up in Browse.
16:53 bernie silbe: I bet our file picker doesn't let you do multiple selection :)
16:54 silbe bernie: I know it doesn't :)
16:55 bernie: but that's much easier to fix than some kind of Journal integration for random services
16:55 bernie: and it would be useful for more than just uploading photos to F*book
16:56 dfarning is now known as dfarning_afk
16:57 dfarning_afk is now known as dfarning
16:58 dfarning bernie, silbe did anyone get the backup/restore to the school server working correctly?  That was pretty heavily requested in PY.
17:00 tch dfarning: i think we have it already
17:01 dfarning: it is limited to the last backup restore, but it works
17:02 dfarning tch, great -- since the first line of service and support is 'reflash' a good backup/restore is important:(
17:02 tch dfarning: yup that have been the main use case so far  :)
17:03 silbe dfarning: I've never seen it working. But then I don't have an actual XS to test against...
17:04 tch silbe:  we have been using it at caacupe since atleast 7 months
17:07 silbe tch: good to know. Is it possible to configure it in a way that doesn't interfere with the existing infrastructure? I.e. turn off DHCP etc.?
17:07 tch silbe: how would it interfere?
17:08 silbe tch: e.g. by answering DHCP requests?
17:09 tch silbe: I don't recall any problems (concerning XS backup/restore) like that..
17:11 silbe tch: did you set it up in an special, isolated test network or just add the XS to an existing network with DHCP server and upstream internet connection?
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17:13 silbe ok, got to work on some non-Sugar stuff. cu tomorrow!
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17:15 tch silbe: the XS itself is the DHCP server and internet main client (AFAIK)
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17:22 silbe tch: that's exactly the problem. I already have a server and the XS must not interfere with it.
17:25 bernie garycmartin: hello
17:25 aa: hello to you too
17:31 dfarning_afk is now known as dfarning
17:46 garycmartin bernie: pong, hi.
19:24 mtd bernie, alsroot: I don't think it was me working on the simple HTTP POST thing you were talking about
19:34 bernie mtd: yeah, i figured out it was wadeb
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