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#sugar-meeting, 2010-12-18

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13:12 satellit_ walterbender_: see you on f1 neighborhood Walter-HP  I guess you got installed...:  )
13:15 walterbender_ satellit_: yes... painful.
13:15 satellit_ : )
13:15 walterbender_ satellit_: the fedora installers don't work, but the unetbootin install did work
13:16 satellit_: have people `tried unetbootin on older versions of Fedora/Sugar?
13:16 satellit_ I am testing Trisquel 4.0.1 with sweet sugar 0.90.1 with alsroot on #trisquel...
13:17 walterbender_: I have never used unetbootin to be honest....: /
13:18 alsroot doesn't remember when he install OS (except VMs) last time after he erased M$ Windows :) (and dd'ing data while moving to the new hardware)
13:18 walterbender_ satellit_: I didn't test persistent storage, because I didn't need it yesterday... I'll test that today.
13:19 alsroot: I took great pleasure in erasing Windows yesterday :)
13:19 satellit_ I only have XP-Pro SP2 on Virtual box for fencing-time (for Epee tournaments)
13:20 walterbender_ alsroot: have people reported journal bugs with Sugar on F14? (They started happening once all the recommended updates were applied.) something to do with dbus and interspection
13:20 alsroot: every activity fails to save to the Journal
13:21 alsroot walterbender_: hmm, didn't get such issues w/ ds and dbus in my case...
13:21 walterbender_: are there any tickets?
13:21 ..w/ use cases
13:22 walterbender_ alsroot: I'll poke around a bit more before I file a ticket. I may have screwed something up when I restored my Journal from backup.
13:23 alsroot: could be the problem. I just removed my datastore and save works again. :(
13:24 alsroot walterbender_: did you save previous one?
13:24 walterbender_ alsroot: yes...
13:24 alsroot: but there must be something slightly broken with it...
13:25 alsroot walterbender_: could you share it, will see my env
13:27 walterbender_ alsroot: my datastore is huge!!!
13:28 alsroot: 875300.sugar-save
13:29 goes to make some coffee
13:29 alsroot walterbender_: heh, you can try to remove index_updated file and restart sugar (but save previous data, at least index/ dir and version file)
13:30 if reindex will help, it is one more reindex issue..
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13:32 walterbender_ alsroot: could be an index problem, but that usually has a different symptom: missing entries...
13:32 alsroot: I think it may be a permissions problem when I copied the Journal data
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13:46 bernie wakes up and remembers about the ac meeting, for a change
13:47 dfarning, alsroot, silbe_away, tch, SMParrish_away: meeting today?
13:47 silbe_away is now known as silbe
13:47 silbe bernie: yep, in ten minutes
13:49 m_anish silbe, i'll attend this one for a change too :)
13:49 silbe m_anish: nice to see you again :)
13:51 m_anish silbe, same here
13:51 tch i am here :)
13:52 bernie m_anish: oops, sorry for not including you in the list... you probably have the hottest news for us
13:52 m_anish bernie, hola!
13:52 walterbender_ bernie: hello from my new laptop :)
13:54 bernie walterbender_: hey! did replacing the usb stick work?
13:55 haha, that's ridiculous! savannah.gnu.org is down again!!
13:56 it must be destiny, I can't participate in this meeting
13:57 walterbender_ bernie: I gave up on using the Fedora tools and used unetbootin instead... worked out of the box :)
13:57 tch bernie: deme!
13:58 walterbender_ bernie: on the same USB stick I had been using
13:58 dfarning good morning all
13:59 silbe bernie: do you have a few minutes to talk about Sugar in Dextrose 3 later today?
13:59 dfarning tch, can you lead today's meeting?  I still have my have my hands full with joshua:(
13:59 tch sure,
14:00 dfarning tch the two important topics are -- 1. silbe and patch flow and 2. m_anish and feedback.
14:01 tch guess we should start with silbe then, so he can let us know his work status :)
14:01 dfarning tch SMParrish_away is working some things out at home.   If possible we will need to reassign his tasks to others.
14:01 bernie silbe: yeah, that was the plan. but savannah takes priority
14:02 dfarning tch thanks
14:02 bernie silbe: fyi, this is what I'm seeing on the dom0: http://fpaste.org/GSQp/
14:02 silbe: pretty scary, eh?
14:02 tch dfarning: ok, np
14:02 silbe bernie: understood. Just ping me when/if you've got some time (or when you know for sure you won't)
14:02 tch bernie: id say is an internal job :P
14:03 silbe bernie: hmm, I've never seen that kind of hang. What's blkback? (let's move over to #treehouse or #sugar)
14:03 tch silbe: we may start :)?
14:04 silbe tch: once you tell the meeting bot to start, yep :)
14:04 tch silbe: i can't recall how to do it :P lol
14:04 silbe tch: #startmeeting
14:04 tch #startmeeting
14:04 meeting Meeting started Sat Dec 18 14:04:53 2010 UTC. The chair is tch. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:04 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:04 tch its alive!
14:05 #topic Silbe's update on patchwork
14:05 silbe tch: you can use "/msg meeting commands" to see the first few commands. I haven't figured out yet how to get a full list from the bot itself, but there's documentation in the Debian wiki.
14:08 tch i think already defined the topic haha
14:08 guess you should just start?
14:09 silbe Patchwork should work well enough AFAICT. Re. the review process, erikos and I will step up as maintainers for sugar, sugar-base, sugar-presence-service and hulahop. I'll announce it later today on sugar-devel.
14:10 The proposed process is that anybody is encouraged to do reviews and Simon or I will ack/push the patches.
14:10 walterbender_ silbe: +1
14:11 tch is anybody literally and singular? :)
14:11 silbe tch: maybe "everybody". I'm not quite sure about the subtle linguistic differences. ;)
14:12 tch so you just need one review from someone.
14:12 walterbender_ silbe: maybe you should say it in German, so it is at least clear between you and Simon :)
14:12 tch haha, no please..
14:14 silbe This is a short-time compromise to get us going again. In the long run we'll need to work out how to better collaborate during code development (i.e. even before the review stage as it is now).
14:14 tch silbe: +1
14:15 walterbender_ silbe: patch review is a different beast than architecture :)
14:15 silbe tch: to get a patch pushed to mainline, you'll need an Ack from Simon or me. If somebody else already did a thorough review, Simon and I don't necessarily need to do a detailed review as well, but can just Ack the patch.
14:17 walterbender_ mas facile
14:17 m_anish silbe, makes sense
14:17 silbe walterbender_: that's another topic we'll need to tackle soon. But it's not what I meant. We need to work out how to better work with "less experienced" developers. That's very important in the long run.
14:17 tch silbe: i get it :) sounds fine
14:18 silbe walterbender_: "mas facile"?
14:18 walterbender_ silbe: simple
14:18 silbe k
14:18 tch walterbender_: haha
14:18 bernie silbe: looks like a disk crash :-(
14:19 walterbender_ silbe: re working with less experienced developers, it would be good to hear from alsroot re his experiences
14:19 m_anish silbe, we have some programmers in india who are itching to contribute :)
14:19 silbe, maybe i'll discuss that later in the meeting
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14:20 silbe and even within the "core team" we could benefit from tighter collaboration. But as I said that's a long-term task, so I'd say we discuss is outside the meeting.
14:20 tch silbe: i am also trying to gather some enthusiasts from many engineering colleges :)
14:20 m_anish: ^^
14:20 walterbender_ aside to alsroot: my journal problem was due to file permissions getting messed up in the restore... all is well in datastore land :)
14:20 silbe sounds awesome, m_anish and tch! Let's talk about it after the meeting.
14:21 m_anish tch, yeah :) maybe we can share experiences
14:21 silbe, sure
14:21 alsroot walterbender_: fine, anyway ds wasn't changed from 0.88
14:21 walterbender_ aside to tch: the UNA discussions are heating up :)
14:21 tch walterbender_: :D
14:22 silbe has anyone remaining questions re. patch review or should we move to the next topic?
14:22 tch silbe: i do,
14:23 silbe tch: fire away
14:24 tch silbe: (probably concerns alsroot too): after you are done with the patchwork, is it possible to invest some time on having a dextrose branch for 0.88.1 + dextrose patches ?
14:24 silbe:  for example, for the jhbuild env
14:26 silbe, alsroot: or any other env,
14:26 m_anish back in a moment
14:26 silbe tch: you should talk to bernie about that. He thinks it's a bad idea to have a git repo for the Dextrose sources and that we should use patch sets instead.
14:27 tch silbe: i see, ok i will talk to bernie about that. Is just that its been painfull lately its too "rambo" work lol..
14:27 silbe I'll use git for patch wrangling, but intend to only "publish" a patch set (exported from git, committed to the dextrose repo).
14:29 bernie tch: yes, I think the way it should be done is that you as a developer do not have to care. you work on master as you always did
14:30 m_anish is back (sorry)
14:30 bernie tch: then you send you patch to the buildmaster (or to silbe, now that he maintains the patch queue). and that person will massage the patch until it applies on top of the others
14:30 silbe Dextrose-2 patches -> smparrish, Dextrose-3+ patches -> me (via dextrose@)
14:30 dfarning bernie does any major project develop that way?
14:31 bernie tch: when I was doing it, I was just adding it to the spec file, and sometimes I had to fix the rejects manually until the patch applied cleanly.
14:31 dfarning: yes, fedora.
14:32 dfarning: we do not develop, we just do bugfixes on top of an upstream project.
14:32 dfarning: if we do not intend to ever rebase on upstream (i.e. a fork), then it's better to have a separate git repository
14:33 silbe bernie: so new features should go through upstream instead of getting added to Dextrose right away?
14:33 dfarning bernie, I'll read more about that. I disagree that dextrose does not develop.
14:34 bernie silbe: it doesn't matter whether it's a new feature or a bugfix. but we should not carry around large deltas. it's a big cost for us, regardless of which tools we use. because the tool doesn't actually matter that much.
14:36 dfarning: yes, it does develop. but this is more because upstream was dead(ish) and unresponsive to the deployment's needs. new development shouldn't be the focus of dextrose imho
14:37 silbe bernie: certainly. The question is a) whether we apply all patches to Dextrose first (and rebase if we need to modify them due to upstream requests) or channel some of them through upstream and b) when we throw out patches rejected upstream.
14:37 bernie silbe: whichever lets us have stable rpms faster and with less effort.
14:38 silbe: upstreaming things is an important, but secondary goal
14:38 silbe ok
14:39 bernie silbe: the was I was doing it is that I was submitting patches upstream for review first, but also apply them to dextrose for testing immediately without waiting.
14:40 silbe bernie: yep, that's what I intend to do as well (for patches I accepted).
14:40 bernie silbe: I think it's important that we maintain a process that lets us fix bugs quickly and not waste any time on juggling patches or complex interactions with upstream. we should stay user-focused.
14:41 dfarning let's switch to user feed back from anish.
14:41 silbe dfarning: +1
14:41 bernie yes
14:41 m_anish tch, pls change the topic :)
14:42 tch #topic Anish welcome to Paraguay and in-situ feedback.
14:43 m_anish This has been an eventful week for me, moving from India to py and the weather in py going from 15 degrees to 35 :)
14:43 tch in one day!
14:43 m_anish anyway, I've had useful discussion with roberto (rralcala, tch) and bernie on irc about the way things work here
14:44 I summarized them in a mail I sent on dextrose-ml last night
14:44 bernie did not read it yet
14:44 m_anish bernie, np, i'll just discuss it here anyway
14:45 so, on the tech front, the things they want most are (1) for dextrose to be stable (2) the yum updater to work
14:45 but i guess this is already known here...
14:46 also, it would be useful if we could figure out ways to reduce the time spent between deploying the s/w and discovering issues with it
14:46 tch 's notification system would be a step in that direction. there is probably room for much more.
14:47 silbe m_anish: how do you think the notification system would help?
14:47 and is there a way to get the Formadores to channel bug reports to us?
14:48 m_anish silbe, well, the formadores won't run to us (or run to us with more info) everytime something crashed. maybe automated bug reporting to go with this.
14:48 tch silbe: bernie and I tried that, more than once..
14:48 m_anish silbe, hmm, i'm still thinking of something on that front
14:48 silbe m_anish: Are actual crashes common in the field?
14:49 tch m_anish: +1 on automated tool
14:49 m_anish silbe, actually I don't know that very much. tch and bernie would know more
14:49 tch silbe: very
14:49 silbe: i mean, all kind of bugs.. mostly when you are at testing stage
14:49 silbe tch: Very interesting. XO-1 (=> low memory) or XO-1.5?
14:50 but automated reporting will only work for crashes
14:51 maybe Tracebacks after we cleaned up our code not to report tracebacks for potentially expected cases (e.g. OHM missing)
14:51 m_anish silbe, i'm not saying that 'automated reporting' is the best solution. I'm saying that there is scope for feature development in this area.
14:51 silbe and Tracebacks alone are rarely useful, we need to know how the problem was triggered.
14:52 m_anish: I certainly agree there is "scope". I just wonder whether it's worth a lot of effort.
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14:53 silbe but if anyone comes up with a reasonably simple patch, we should give it a try (for a limited number of "beta testers" to avoid getting overloaded by false positives).
14:53 bernie silbe: I think our best chance is to send out m_anish to the schools to collect bug reports directly from users
14:53 silbe: the formadores can report some kind of problems, through the technical team of pyedu
14:54 m_anish bernie, silbe one of the things rralcala told me that the formadores are so overburdened by their work, they can hardly give useful feedback
14:54 tch bernie: that did not work in the past bernie.. ;/
14:54 m_anish so making their life easier is a priority for us
14:54 walterbender_ tch: what did work in the past?
14:55 bernie tch: well, one would expect the formadores to have acquired more technical experience by now?
14:56 tch: and also, some formadores were actually good at reporting bugs. like ricardo, for example.
14:56 tch bernie: not sure if we should depend on that to happen, before starting to get real/useful feedback
14:56 silbe bernie: ok. maybe that works well enough that people at schools get encouraged to interact more closely with us. A single person at each school should suffice, and it doesn't have to be a Formador(es?). They just seemed like a natural choice as they're a) directly "on the ground" and b) a reasonably small set so they can interact directly with us. But if they're already overloaded...
14:57 bernie m_anish: yes, I think it would be best if you could visit the classrooms and collect problems directly from teachers and students
14:57 tch: sure, agreed. (see above)
14:57 m_anish silbe, in my experience, having a lot of info (even if all of it is not useful) is better than having none
14:58 bernie silbe: yes, this worked last year. not all schools will choose to participate, but some definitely did last year.
14:58 m_anish bernie, i'm still figuring that out as i get to know more but i've noted down your advice :)
14:58 bernie silbe: with so many teachers, it's not hard to find a few who are enthusiastic about testing new builds.
14:58 silbe m_anish: automated processes can easily drown you, making it hard to find the useful information. We have that problem already with systems-logs@ :)
14:58 walterbender_ bernie, tch: how about recruiting some students to take on some of this burden, e.g, Benedicto and his peers
14:59 m_anish bernie, are you talking about the schools you went to?
14:59 bernie m_anish: the two schools that were most helpful last year were Daniel Ortellado and Teniente Aquino. Walter visited both of them.
14:59 walterbender_ bernie, tch there must be many students who could do this at this point
14:59 m_anish bernie, i guess you know, but there would be 27 more schools on top of the 10 we have when the new laptops are deployed
14:59 bernie, ok!
14:59 tch personally (and i hope someone probes me i am wrong ASAP) I think that it will not work so well.. every time we land that kind of responsibility on someone (outside of the main tech  team) our feedback chain breaks.. is sad but is true..
15:00 bernie walterbender_: yes, that's what I did. give new versions to geeky students who would report bugs to me.
15:00 walterbender_: but this required me to go often to caacupe... because communication over email and irc does not work very well with teachers and students.
15:00 walterbender_ bernie: I don't think there is any way around that...
15:00 tch i think we should aim for that.. but not depend on that.
15:01 walterbender_ tch: I think you need redundant mechanisms
15:01 bernie m_anish: yes, but those new schools will have very different problems: power, networking, schoolserver, hardware maintenance...
15:01 m_anish: they won't be very useful to debug dextrose for at least one year
15:01 walterbender_ in .uy, they have Ceibal RAP which visits schools to complement the more formal processes of Ceibal
15:01 bernie m_anish: I strongly recommend working with experienced users who can tell us about regressions (it used to do this, now it doesn't...)
15:02 silbe bernie: what's the reason communication via email/IRC doesn't work well? Bad/no internet connection, different culture? Is there a way we could improve it from our side (snail mail, VoIP, different style of interaction, whatever)?
15:02 m_anish walterbender, agree we could probably try both (automated and going to school, collecting info from willing teachers/students) and see if they work well in tandem
15:02 tch m_anish: +1
15:02 walterbender_: +1
15:02 walterbender_ what about a Saturday club like the Tortegart, Scratch, and Etoys clubs,  only dedicated to bug tracking?
15:03 bernie silbe: I did anything I could to solve the technical issues... I included irc in the builds, made it join #olpc-paraguay automatically....
15:03 silbe: but at the end of the day the problem is that users are not used to chat on the internet.
15:03 silbe: of 15 formadores, only 2 did show up sometimes. and they would not stay online long enough to get an answer from us most of the times :-)
15:03 tch bernie: exactly.
15:04 walterbender_ I bet you could find a great team of kids who'd be interested, as well as a formadora or two...
15:05 they have a growing mechanism for these informal-time clubs -- classroom time is too busy to use for debugging
15:05 bernie silbe: children were similarly unable to communicate online beyond "hello, how are you?". the only way to collect feedback from users is taking the bus, trust me :)
15:05 walterbender_ tch: I'll bring it up with Pacita
15:05 tch walterbender_: :)
15:05 bernie walterbender_: yes, I agree. it's important to work with the users who are enthusiastic about testing new software.
15:06 walterbender_ m_anish: if you ran a Saturday club in Caacupe, (1) you'd get great feedback and (2) you'd have a great time
15:06 m_anish i think it would be worth having an activity that allows to easily report problems, maybe include screenshots
15:06 silbe bernie: taking the bus doesn't scale for us, that's why I'm trying to figure out other ways. Either directly (via internet) or indirectly (e.g. finding university students willing to visit a school once a week).
15:06 m_anish walterbender_, ok :)
15:06 dfarning walterbender please don't bypass the lines of communication that are in place m_anish can present the idea to scs and roberto
15:06 bernie m_anish: I don't think that was the actual issue
15:07 walterbender_ silbe: in the next few months, we'll have many more university students on board...
15:07 silbe walterbender_: great!
15:07 bernie m_anish: users were able to understand how to use trac (it's an easier webapp than gmail, after all). they just would not describe the problem properly
15:07 m_anish bernie, hmm
15:07 tch bernie: and after a while they stopped doing it
15:08 bernie: except for people for mentioned
15:08 bernie m_anish: they could not distinguish software from hardware, you see? they'd say things such as "I can't see the battery any more" when the frame key on the keyboard is stuck.
15:08 walterbender_ bernie: at one point in .uy, they were going to work on a kid/teacher-friendly trac... don't know if it ever happened.
15:08 silbe BTW (sorry, getting off topic), has anybody followed up with the government guy who wanted to fund SoaS work? Depending on the details, Dextrose might work well enough for them.
15:09 bernie tch: yes, indeed
15:09 walterbender_ silbe: which government?
15:09 silbe walterbender_: US I think
15:09 bernie silbe: uh?
15:09 that would be great
15:09 silbe goes looking for the mail
15:10 m_anish bernie, tch hmm, so what do you think would work in addition going to school
15:10 bernie so, guys. what *will* work is: m_anish goes to caacupe every once in a while to talk with volunteer testers and give then new releases
15:10 m_anish bernie, we could have yum-testing repos when we have the yum-updater up
15:11 bernie SMParrish_away: I think we should drop the concept of weekly or bi-weekly releases. we should have releases when there are bugfixes we want to test, as often as needed for testing.
15:11 that is, be test-driven.
15:11 m_anish: sure
15:11 walterbender_ bernie: +1
15:11 m_anish to beta test the 'new & shiny' and get great feedback. but that is a differernt topic
15:11 tch bernie: i agree on that, ALWAYS they come thought the updater..
15:11 bernie m_anish: we already have the right structure for this (release and testing dirs in the dextrose download site). we're just missing a cronjob
15:11 silbe Message-ID <AANLkTik-fqTD6U83FdOAi=SpsBd+1pkYxdXu_WhNP4MW@mail.gmail.com>
15:12 tch bernie: the method of going there and re flashing machine for each bug fix is to intrusive
15:12 bernie tch: yes, this will remove the need to go there for "giving" them the new software.
15:12 m_anish bernie, ok, re: that we are planning to start testing the yum updater starting this monday
15:12 with the ~10 xo's we have at the pyeduca office
15:12 silbe http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ember/002047.html
15:12 bernie tch: the downside is that it will be hard to tell which version of sugar the users were running. we should remember to bump the release number on each build.
15:13 m_anish: great
15:13 tch bernie: new fixes, new rpms, new release number, makes sense..
15:14 bernie silbe: the email sounds a bit odd... did anyone followup?
15:14 m_anish can we continue this on m-l and switch topics?
15:14 tch bernie: and if the updater works as intended, we won't have to worry, because they should always get the updates if they are conencted to the XS
15:14 bernie walterbender_: maybe you could answer this government guy?
15:14 m_anish: +1
15:14 tch can i change topic then?
15:15 walterbender_ silbe: I was a bit suspicious of that email
15:15 m_anish tch its the same main topic
15:15 i'm switiching to non tech aspect
15:15 silbe ok, let's continue after the meeting or via email
15:15 tch m_anish: ok, go ahead :)
15:16 m_anish one of the things we're trying to think of (and me and arjs talked about this extensively) is how to get the edu. team more involved in mainstream SL pedagogical discussions...
15:17 the problem with that is bridging the communication gap (probably)
15:17 they would have a pretty good way of analyzing and figuring out what works in an 'education & learning' sense IMHO
15:18 secondly, how can we get similar teams to collaborate across deployments (py, uy ...) but i have yet to talk with the edu team re: this
15:19 tch probably emulating what we did in the technical side,
15:19 m_anish that's pretty much what i wanted to say
15:21 i'm hoping everyone will have plenty of thoughts on this :)
15:22 dfarning m_anish, please feel free to work on the educational parts of the puzzle with groups like SL.  For the next 4 months, as AC, we are going to focus on the technical improvements.  After we have established momentum on solving technical problems we will start looking at other issues like educational efficacy.
15:23 bernie is still distracted by savannah issues
15:23 m_anish dfarning, ok
15:23 dfarning m_anish, our resources are rather limited..... and we have to bootstrap the business.
15:24 m_anish tch, i'm done with what i had to say. I would like to have discussion re new developers but not sure whether it should be part of the meeting.
15:25 tch i have one more topic
15:25 then we can discuss about it ? :)
15:25 m_anish dfarning, i'm having this discussion because we might end up having a tech soln. to this..., but I get what you're saying.
15:25 tch, sure go ahead, you're the meeting boss :)
15:26 tch # feedback and bug reports from ceibal
15:26 ops!
15:26 #topic feedback and bug reports from ceibal
15:27 ceibal folks seems the doing good tests lately, and they keep reporting the problems that affects also to py or any other dextrose user
15:27 bernie dfarning: when were you planning to come to boston?
15:28 tch and as i mentioned bernie, i am a little worried that we haven't move much in that direction lately,
15:29 bernie dfarning: regarding new developers, I think we have enough people on the team if we agree to make all of them focus on stability, with a tight loop between anish testing and tch + silbe fixing bugs quickly.
15:29 oh, and alsroot
15:30 tch: right. they don't actually seem to be reporting *all* the problems they see. only those they don't know how to solve :-/
15:30 tch: we should probably ask them more directly to send us their bugfixes and share their bug list (I'm sure they have one internally)
15:32 tch: they also seem to have their own rpm repository and their own release schedule... at this time, the uruguayan build is more like a fork of dextrose 1 than something we're doing together.
15:32 tch bernie: wasn't that the idea?
15:32 bernie tch: we should have someone (you?) visit them for a few days to resync
15:33 tch bernie: i am going to uruguay this week, and ill visit them :)
15:33 bernie tch: as with the end-users, communication over the internet is insufficient. only face-to-face meetings are effective.
15:33 tch: GURAIT-TO!
15:34 m_anish: unrelated, but important: it would be good for you to get a good spanish teacher. the colleagues in the office will talk to you mostly in english, you won't learn much from them.
15:34 m_anish bernie, yes, i'm planning to start on that very soon
15:34 tch bernie: i just don't want to get into bad assumptions, i think they have increase their community interaction a alot
15:35 bernie m_anish: good. I hope pyedu can pay expenses.
15:35 walterbender_ tch: lean on Emiliano. He is a good guy and very pragmatic
15:35 silbe can we convince Ceibal & co to sponsor travelling for regular in-person meetings with them?
15:36 tch walterbender_: ok :)
15:36 bernie tch: yes, me too. I don't think they *want* to work in isolation.. it just happened because both you and me stopped being in contact with them all the time.
15:36 silbe: probably yes
15:37 silbe: they did sponsor me 6 months ago
15:37 silbe: for one week, because I had to leave for mozambique
15:37 tch bernie: i try to keep in contact :), for example now i switched to bug fixing mode again hehe
15:39 i just think the interaction should be bi-directional if they report bugs and no one effectively helps then, then we are failing..
15:40 bernie tch: yes indeed
15:40 silbe bernie: great! we should talk about that in January or February (next few weeks are going to be busy with "family" stuff AKA christmas/new year's eve).
15:41 bernie tch: I think what worked is that daniel ortellado was testing for real, and we were fixing their bugs for real.
15:41 tch: if one of the two fails, the feedback loop breaks.
15:41 silbe tch: right. We have that problem in general on the upstream side. :-/
15:41 tch if there is anything you guys want me to also do there, let me know
15:41 gangil has left #sugar-meeting
15:42 bernie silbe: in my case, they had to pay only a cheap ticket from paraguay... not sure they'd pay a ticket from germany :)
15:42 m_anish :)
15:42 silbe I'd say we continue that discussion after the meeting.
15:42 tch kk, is there any other topic concerning this meeting or should i end it?
15:42 bernie silbe: I think it would make more sense for you to visit paraguay, if possible. because uruguay is too large and too well structured to be representative of a typical olpc deployment.
15:42 silbe bernie: I wasn't talking about going there myself. Just that I'll need to focus on other things within the next few weeks.
15:43 tch silbe: you should come, seriously... all the core members should visit deployments..
15:43 silbe bernie: Bine prefers Peru ;)
15:43 bernie silbe: you'd only see an office and work with regular programmers like you, most of the time. in paraguay, instead, you'd be more in contact with schools, support engineers, educators, etc.
15:43 silbe: don't know about peru, but it might be the same of uruguay, just more disorganized.
15:44 tch any other topic? counting down..
15:44 5..
15:44 silbe I'd love to go to some deployment after I finished my studies and moved to a new place (we're currently living in dormitories and have to leave when I finish my studies, i.e. at the end of the semester).
15:45 bernie silbe: well, if you had time, I would really like you to spend a few weeks at a deployment to get a sense of how users interact with sugar and how they think.
15:45 silbe 4
15:45 tch 2... (obviously not seconds ;))
15:45 #endmeeting
15:45 meeting Meeting ended Sat Dec 18 15:45:49 2010 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
15:45 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-18T14:04:53.html
15:45 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]10-12-18T14:04:53
15:45 bernie tch: 42
15:45 silbe tch: at my usual typing speed it should probably be minutes rather than seconds ;)
15:46 m_anish actually it should rather have been ...
15:46 100
15:46 011
15:46 010
15:46 001
15:46 tch guess it was a great meeting
15:46 we just need snacks and music next time
15:46 :)
15:47 m_anish now that the meeting's over, can we talk abt the enw devs ;)
15:47 *new
15:47 tch of course
15:47 m_anish okay, i'll just list the devs and their expertise we are interacting with currently
15:48 akash gangil is probably the most exp dev of our group
15:48 silbe bernie: after this semester I will have time, though I'd prefer not to leave for too long at a time (i.e. several weeks to at most three months).
15:48 bernie tch: yeah, guraito meeting
15:48 silbe m_anish: are we talking about devs that might / are going to join AC, or about working with devs outside of AC?
15:49 m_anish then we have nitin, brajesh who are somewhat experienced, and can have slightly complex bugs
15:49 silbe, with AC
15:49 silbe, i mean join AC, should we move over to #ac
15:49 tch silbe: in my case could be both :)
15:50 silbe where's #ac? OFTC or freenode?
15:50 m_anish tch, silbe actually the same case here, we're not forcing them to be a part of AC, but i guess they might still end up working for AC, since we trained them
15:50 tch m_anish: +1
15:50 m_anish freenode
15:50 its #Ac
15:51 tch i think it concerns sugar too
15:51 why not talking about it.. i guess there must be someone else here doing similar stuff
15:52 silbe I'm the only one on #activitycentral on freenode. spelling?
15:52 tch i am not there haha
15:52 m_anish silbe, its just "#Ac", but lets continue here anyway
15:53 silbe ah, ok.
15:53 tch yeah, keep going! :)
15:53 m_anish we have a group {Akhil, Nikhil, Neha, Mukesh, Mohit} who is just starting out
15:53 silbe what exactly are we going to talk about? This channel is logged (not only during meetings).
15:53 bernie silbe: #ac
15:54 m_anish silbe, basically, i'm looking for tasks for them to work on :)
15:54 bernie m_anish: ah, that's great
15:54 silbe m_anish: ah, ok, there's no reason not to discuss that in public.
15:54 bernie m_anish: you'll soon have more bugs than people to fix them
15:54 m_anish they're probably all free for the next 1 months atleast
15:55 silbe what kind of experience do they have? Anyone who worked with Telepathy before? ;)
15:55 bernie m_anish: if we have a strong enough team, we *may* want to start testing Dextrose 3 in parallel with the Dextrose2 stabilization work
15:55 m_anish: otherwise, I'm kind of opposed to do any work on Dextrose 3, because without users and testing, it's a waste of time.
15:55 m_anish silbe, i was just introducing them... i don't think anyone has telepathy exp...
15:56 so to sum up...
15:56 bernie m_anish: anyway, I have a feeling that PyEdu will not agree to work on Dextrose 3 so soon.
15:56 m_anish Akash = most exp guy we have...
15:56 tch bernie: true
15:56 m_anish Hemanshu = starting out but looking for a medium/hard task to work on
15:57 {Akhil, Nikhil, Neha, Mukesh, Mohit} = just starting out, basic linux experience, and able to get a running sugar env
15:57 {Nitin, Brajesh} = somewhat more exp, can move to easy/medium sugar bugs
15:58 Also, some are looking for a long-term feature/task to work, but i'm hesitant to have them work on that initially.
15:58 that's all the devs we have.
15:59 i'm not sure how i should work with you, SMParrish_away  and arjs to give them bugs to work on
15:59 tch maybe alsroot?
15:59 m_anish I'll write a mail introducing them if you want
16:00 oh, yeah and alsroot :)
16:00 silbe bernie: might make sense, though only after the known major bugs of the Telepathy rewrite (like the gnome-keyring stuff) have been fixed.
16:00 alsroot one of /me official task within AC is guiding new sugar devs
16:01 m_anish bernie, you're probably right
16:02 tch alsroot, m_anish: voilà!
16:03 silbe maybe we should do a triage run over the SL bug tracker and identify bugs that new devs might try to tackle.
16:03 m_anish alsroot, okay, so are you aware of open tasks. I can write a mail introducing them to you, if you want.
16:03 silbe, +1
16:03 bernie silbe: yes, maybe I was too quick in calling Dextrose 3 a waste of time. there's some technical work that needs to be done ahead of time before we can even *think* of test-driven development.
16:04 alsroot m_anish: not sure about tasks (it might be a Q for people who are closer to deployemnt ;), but the regular way I followed is chating w/ people on #sugar-newbies
16:04 bernie silbe: what I'm worried of is that if we do both dx2 and dx3 in parallel, developers will naturally put their time and enthusiasm in the one that's most fun to do.
16:04 alsroot m_anish: and of course any intro is welcome
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16:05 tch bernie: but you are right about PyEdu, i mean, they have different needs rather than spending all their human tech resources in dx3, yet.
16:05 bernie: guess ill invite rracala next time to this meeting
16:05 m_anish silbe, alsroot, at the moment, i'm looking at 5 starter type tasks, 2 easy, 1 medium/hard, 1 medium, if it helps :)
16:05 bernie tch: in order to get pyedu interested, dx3 should have some feature they need
16:06 tch: what's hot in 0.90 and fedora 14 for a deployment?
16:06 tch: probably nothing
16:06 silbe bernie: BTW, what I wanted to talk about to you is whether you think it's OK to base Dextrose-3 on current mainline master instead of 0.90. The primary difference is my cleanup series, and that's exactly why I want to base on it. Development will happen in mainline, so I'd always need to resolve conflicts if we base on 0.90.
16:06 bernie silbe: I 100% agree. 0.90 is an abortion of a release. it got no QA and no users.
16:06 m_anish bernie, if we can make dx2 work very well on the new laptops arriving in feb/march, we could convince them of dx3 for the future
16:07 silbe bernie: I don't expect the cleanups to introduce new bugs (I was careful and they got reviewed by at least two people), but naturally I can't be sure.
16:07 bernie: ok, agreed then.
16:07 walterbender_ bernie: just like 0.86... but it paved the way for 0.88
16:07 bernie silbe: post-0.90 I've seen a lot of stabilization and cleanup work that can only improve the situation
16:08 alsroot m_anish: I guess people can start just from any of ticket to see what they dunno about sugar and ask about it on #sugar-newbies
16:08 bernie walterbender_: sure, it's a useful step forward for us, but we can't sell it to deployments as it is.
16:08 walterbender_: *if* collaboration worked substantially better, that would be a major selling point
16:09 walterbender_ bernie: agreed...
16:09 m_anish alsroot, ok, but just for the 5 starter devs, i'd prefer a handpicked task.
16:09 silbe BTW, is there any news re. Collabora? They should be able to help us a lot.
16:09 bernie silbe: I just wanted to add that if we choose to track master, we don't have to wait for the 0.92 release schedule to release dextrose3.
16:10 silbe: any interim snapshot of sugar that works better than 0.88 with no major regressions is releasable for us
16:10 walterbender_ bernie: the reality in .uy and .pe at least is that they are not going to do a major refresh for a while after this next one...
16:10 m_anish alsroot, maybe I can pick something up and run it by you , silbe to see if it aligns with dextrose focus?
16:10 walterbender_ bernie: and this next one is .88-based, not .90-based
16:10 bernie silbe: did they pledge to sponsor development?
16:11 walterbender_ bernie: so .90 is orphaned
16:11 silbe bernie: ah right, you need a tarball for rpm. We can either use a git snapshot or include the cleanup series in the dextrose repo.
16:11 bernie walterbender_: true
16:12 walterbender_: "true" on all your last 3 statements
16:12 walterbender_: 0.90 is in soas 14 :-)
16:12 alsroot m_anish: I'll see about 5 tickets for warming-up
16:12 m_anish alsroot, great!
16:13 bernie walterbender_: what did dsd say about olpc's next build? are they going to use 0.90? or 0.92? that's important, because following olpc can save a lot of engineering time (and thus money)
16:14 m_anish alsroot, just to give a background, they are learning python, pygtk as well, probably haven't had experience with FOSS, and have basic linux knowledge :)
16:14 walterbender_ bernie: I'll ask martin
16:14 bernie walterbender_: regardless of whether what they picked was the optimal version or not.
16:14 tch bernie: +1, if its possible next dextrose should be hand and hand with olpc
16:14 silbe m_anish: sounds good. That way we can make sure work isn't wasted on something that has few chances on getting merged upstream. Trac only tells you about the problem and usually not how the SL core devs think it should be fixed. Quite a few patches got rejected because of that. :-/
16:15 bernie walterbender_: ah, if it's martin's decision, then I bet it's going to be 0.90, because it's older :-)
16:15 silbe: btw, our trac is barfing a lot of nonsense in syslog
16:15 walterbender_ fwiw, 0.90 works pretty well on my f14 system :p
16:16 silbe bernie: feel free to reduce the logging level.
16:16 bernie silbe: regarding patch acceptance, with you on both the upstream and downstream teams, I'm pretty sure things will improve a lot.
16:16 silbe: except for the backup/restore series, probably :-)
16:16 silbe <g>
16:16 bernie walterbender_: how's collaboration?
16:17 walterbender_: do you get the password prompt at startup time?
16:18 walterbender_: if someone could test 0.90 collaboration with 3-4 laptops, with and without the schoolserver, for all major activities... and report back the results... that would give me a lot more confidence in 0.90
16:19 satellit_: ^^^ perhaps you've done this already?
16:19 tch time to eat, see you all later :)
16:19 silbe tch: bon apo
16:28 tch has quit IRC
16:36 m_anish silbe, ping me when you're free for the triage session. we can probably update the dextrose TODO page to include more info while we're at it.
16:36 alsroot, ^^
16:37 silbe m_anish: will do. Not sure I'll get to it today, though.
16:37 alsroot m_anish: TODO in what case?
16:37 m_anish silbe, ok
16:37 alsroot, updating http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Dextrose/TODO if reqd
16:40 alsroot m_anish: I think, you (and all who are close to deployment), need to prioritize this list (and add new bugs if it is incomplete) it from deployment pov, and let other (who are far from deploymnet), fix them
16:42 m_anish silbe, alsroot, makes sense, i'll discuss this with tch
16:43 silbe m_anish: that would be great. Maybe we should clean up that page before you start prioritising, though. :)
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16:46 m_anish silbe, +1
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17:03 alsroot m_anish: about http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Dextrose/TODO, would be good to split TODO into bug fixes, and features as well, eg, I see there is "Make activities work in Gnome without Sugar", which is a far future feature, I guess :)
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17:10 satellit_ bernie: Only collaboration on 0.90 tested was with Virtualbox OSX Trisquel (ubuntu) 4.0.1 with sweet sugar 0.90.1 (alsroot) I chatted with XO-1 with 0.82 from RAP-71 (Ceibal sp) worked fine last night
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18:30 bernie satellit_: only chat?
18:30 -> shower
18:32 satellit_ bernie: I have been working on Virtual appliances.. Not had time to test Collaboration and .xo applications lately.....Will try to get to it.
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