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#sugar-meeting, 2010-11-19

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All times shown according to UTC.

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14:12 dfarning good morning alsroot, silbe, tch, SMParrish m_anish_ bernie
14:12 silbe heya!
14:12 tch dfarning: :)
14:13 m_anish__ dfarning: 'evening :)
14:13 dfarning just checking if I have the right time.  we just had daylight saving time:( it it confusing to me.
14:14 SMParrish good morning all
14:14 silbe dfarning: it's 14:14 UTC, so we should be fine
14:15 dfarning #startmeeting
14:15 meeting Meeting started Fri Nov 19 14:15:01 2010 UTC. The chair is dfarning. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:15 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:15 dfarning silbe, thanks
14:15 lets put off the discussion about starting a git branch until next week.
14:16 can we start by each giving a summary of what we plan on working on this week. starting with silbe
14:17 SMParrish_mobile <SMParrish_mobile!~Android@> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:18 dfarning this will just help us get synchronized.
14:19 silbe I've finished rebasing sugar and am working on rebasing sugar-toolkit. Will try to get packages with updates patches built (which means fuzzing around with both git and rpm).
14:20 Took ownership of Patchwork; we can now manage the Dextrose patch q with it.
14:20 SMParrish silbe: if you get everything commited to a git repo I can build the rpms if you want me to
14:21 silbe I'll also need to clean up the upstream Patchwork q and get my cleanup series landed so we can hopefully get unstuck upstream.
14:23 SMParrish: I have a git repo, but I suppose you want it in the format it's in the Dextrose repo (i.e. as individual patch files inside the repo), which is not what I have. :)
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14:24 silbe I've imported the patches into a git repo (cloned from upstream sources) so I can work with git instead of diff/patch or quilt.
14:25 SMParrish silbe: point me at what you have and I'll take a look at it.  like I told bernie we are starting to get patch collisons so merging the patches that have been accepted upstream and spinning a new release might be a good thing to do
14:26 jumping to my cell.  have to start work :(
14:26 silbe So we effectively already have the repository dfarning announced on the list. I don't think upstream should pull from it, however - instead we should go through the regular review process. But that's a topic for another time.
14:26 SMParrish is now known as SMParrish_away
14:26 silbe SMParrish_away: ok, ttyl
14:27 dfarning silbe, nice how is patchwork working? or are you still learning?
14:27 silbe, what did you rebase to?
14:27 silbe, smParrish is the plan to continue basing dextrose on .88 while syncing with SL .90? then jump dextrose to .92
14:27 in the meantime smParrish what are your plans for the week?
14:27 silbe,  ok
14:27 looks like we lost smParrish_away
14:27 silbe dfarning: Patchwork is suffering from a severe lack of documentation. Uboot recently started using it and created some sort of howto that I should read to see whether it contains anything useful for us.
14:29 dfarning silbe, any major problems we should look at as AC?
14:29 alsroot, ping
14:29 tch, how about your plans?
14:30 alsroot woke up
14:30 silbe dfarning: I think we agreed on basing Dextrose on 0.88 (which is what I did). We will cherry-pick most of 0.90 simply because except for Tomeus Collaboration rewrite (which we don't want yet because it's not stable enough) 0.90 mainly consisted of a) Dextrose patches and b) bug fixes. The few non-bugfix, not-yet-in-Dextrose patches are major improvements that we want, too.
14:31 dfarning silbe, +1
14:31 alsroot, are you awake enough to give a summary of your plans for next week?
14:33 silbe I hope upstream will get stable soon (though I don't see how, given that we lost our only contributor who understood Telepathy well enough) because cherry-picking so many patches is likely to get a PITA soon.
14:33 tch i will keep pushing forward the notification service extensions to meet more items on the standard protocol, hopefully I will get done with it this weekend. So next week I expect to start using it to solve a few old issues.
14:34 silbe tch: oh right, we should chat about that after the meeting if you got some time.
14:34 tch silbe: sure
14:34 silbe (with my upstream hat on)
14:34 tch silbe: great,
14:35 dfarning tch +1 have you figured out what type of stuff you need to notify about?
14:35 alsroot dfarning: that was exactly my Q, since we don't need to code yum updater, I don't see current dextrose work, so I was planing to back to 0sugar(as regular work) and reviewing upstrema patches mean time, if there is not dextrose work for me
14:36 tch dfarning: yeah, actually I started this feature because there were a few issues that would require some mechanism to notify messages to the users, and honestly I was tired of Alert widgets abuse.
14:38 people complain about interfering with the users activities, but the the alerts are the most annoying and intrusive method possible (except for that journal-is-full moda window)
14:38 dfarning alsroot, can you ping SMParrish_mobile about a few dextose tasks and test the yum updater.
14:39 tch +1
14:39 tch what i try to do is simply to extend what sugar already have to also display messages, respecting the discoverability principle
14:39 dfarning m_anish_ how about your upcoming week?
14:40 alsroot dfarning: will do
14:40 m_anish__ I've worked on (and continue to work on) cleaning up the microformat-updater and fixing issues/testing. The latest version not including these changes(which I mailed to SMParrish_mobile ) works...
14:40 ... but I wouldn't want it reviewed (yet)
14:41 dfarning alsroot, thanks.
14:41 m_anish_ do you need help with the also side of the activity updater?
14:41 aslo
14:42 m_anish__ dfarning: yes that would be great. i know very little php
14:42 dfarning m_anish_ ok, I'll try to find someone to work on it.
14:43 m_anish__ dfarning: i'll be afk on IRC monday-wed, but will have access to mailing-lists
14:43 dfarning m_anish_any more progress on your visa?
14:43 alsroot m_anish__: dfarning: I can take aslo side coding, I guess there are not hard work from SMParrish_away
14:43 tch dfarning: btw, we should talk about the yum-updater too :)
14:43 m_anish__ dfarning: the last update is that i dropped of my passport at the embassy on tue this week, and i've been ringing them up ever since
14:44 but looks like the interview/final approval will only happen next week
14:44 dfarning alsroot, that would be great
14:44 m_anish__ alsroot: ok, that'de be great
14:45 alsroot m_anish__: ping me later, with discussion what you need from aslo
14:45 dfarning m_anish_ this is turning out to be a learning experience.
14:45 m_anish__ alsroot: ok
14:45 dfarning: i want the learning to be over :(
14:46 dfarning I guess that is it for summries?
14:46 tch dfarning: we can party now? ;)
14:46 m_anish__ dfarning: i'll update you next week on the flight booking/etc. other details
14:47 silbe tch: what's the occasion? is it your birthday?
14:47 tch silbe: to celebrate that things are moving forward !
14:47 haha,
14:48 silbe tch: we can celebrate when things are finally moving forward upstream :-P
14:48 dfarning tch, what are your ideas about yum-updater.  That seems like a blockers for widespread deployment in PY.
14:48 m_anish_ thanks
14:48 tch silbe: we can just make a bigger party then :)
14:48 silbe :)
14:48 dfarning silbe, looks like we are getting closer.
14:49 alsroot dfarning: tch: we need SMParrish_away for that, since he is dextrose image master (if I got it right)
14:49 tch dfarning: i spoke to rralcala (new pyedu ceo) and hes _very_ interested, actually he needs it asap.. before even considering any mass upgrade
14:49 silbe dfarning: how so? Did I miss something on IRC?
14:50 alsroot silbe: look to dextrose@, I've posted a ling to IRC discussion there
14:50 silbe tch: what does he need? the updater?
14:50 tch silbe: yum-updater
14:51 dfarning silbe, sorry that might have been some rralcala emailed me/tch.... that is the goal of this meeting to get us more aware of what others are doing.
14:51 tch silbe: what is going on _today_ on caacupe is pure madness, the only updating method available is a sending an army with flash drives to nand blast the field
14:52 silbe: and that option is going away when 1.5 xos arrives (if i understood correctly)
14:52 silbe tch: ok. Should be easy enough to do and hopefully be low enough risk if we disable the yum tmpfs and the Fedora repos. As long as we don't publish the image, I don't think there would be any reason for alsroot not to build one for trying out the feature, even if SMParrish_away is still AFK later.
14:52 alsroot as we discussed on #dextrose, task is pretty trivial, just having dextrose repo (if we don't have it) and a cron job
14:53 ..to update only dextrose repo
14:53 dfarning silbe, the fs-update via usbstick is _really_ painfull once the laptops are deployed.
14:53 tch i can tell :,,,(
14:54 i still have nightmares x.X
14:54 silbe alsroot: message-id?
14:55 alsroot silbe: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ember/000617.html
14:55 silbe: dfarning: to be honest I was for human regions of responsibility :) (ie SMParrish_away works on images)
14:55 s/human/human sized/
14:55 silbe dfarning: I suppose so, as I don't think anyone has made a proper backup+reflash+restore solution yet.
14:56 dfarning anything else we need to talk about as a goup?  or is is time to split into smaller topical threads.
14:56 alsroot, I am not sure what you mean?
14:57 silbe alsroot: ok, seems we talked about different things. I was talking about upstream stalling, you were talking about the updater.
14:58 alsroot: BTW, I suppose for the notification part you'll be using the update-notifier (Ubuntu?) protocol?
14:58 alsroot dfarning: just if SMParrish_away takes care about dextrose images, we need to ask him -- but if SMParrish_away is busy (and we need yum updates asap), I can take care of it
14:59 dfarning alsroot, ahhh. +1 lets keep building to smParrish_away as much as possiable for now.
14:59 alsroot silbe: for the first time (at least) we need only "plase reboot" message, using just system bus should be enough
14:59 silbe: we can improve it later (w/ keeping backward comp.)
15:00 dfarning alsroot, if it gets too much for him we can hire a build master.  you are right.  as soon as we all try to work on everything we will start stepping on eachother s toes.
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15:01 alsroot dfarning: yeah, that was one of core issues (in my mind) in SL DevTEam
15:01 silbe alsroot: you'll also need something that listens to it. So please let's try to tweak update-notifier to do what we want instead of developing custom stuff, especially if we need backwards compatibility later.
15:01 dfarning ok last official topic?  Any suggestions for new AC developers.
15:02 alsroot silbe: I was thinking about tch for that :)
15:02 ..w/ this notifications
15:02 silbe alsroot: ok, then I'll just need to "convince" tch of update-notifier ;)
15:02 alsroot dfarning: not from me
15:03 tch silbe: what do you mean by custom stuff? :)
15:03 silbe dfarning: for what kind of task?
15:04 tch: everything that isn't already in use by somebody else
15:04 dfarning if you don't what to mention names on this channel please email me.  the best developers are going to be people you guys know and respect.  So no cvs's for us:)
15:04 ok we are over time.  Thanks everyone for a good week.
15:05 tch <serious questions> is this custom? http://library.gnome.org/devel/notification-spec/
15:05 dfarning silbe, I think our top priority will be general dextrose development.
15:05 tch that is what sugar already use, is just partially implemented
15:05 dfarning silbe, also looking at UI designers.
15:05 silbe tch: your current work looks great in that regard because you're just adding some features from the protocol Gnome is already using, instead of adding our own custom stuff to it or even replacing it with something else.
15:06 dfarning so to end the meet 6 mintues late.
15:06 #endmeeting
15:06 meeting Meeting ended Fri Nov 19 15:06:31 2010 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
15:06 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-19T14:15:01.html
15:06 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]10-11-19T14:15:01
15:06 silbe tch: shall we continue discussing notifications right away?
15:07 tch i have 15 minutes :) is that ok?
15:08 silbe tch: ok, let's do it quickly
15:09 tch garycmartin: ping
15:09 silbe: guess he might be interested, since he has been helping me too
15:09 silbe tch: thanks for the wiki page, it cleared up a lot for me. I think it's great in general, but I'm worried about some important details.
15:09 tch silbe: sure, tell me.
15:10 silbe tch: I think we should split discussion into three threads and decide on them somewhat separately:
15:10 1. The technical part (protocol, which features to implement, where to do it, ...)
15:10 2. The UI part (where to put them, how to expire, history, etc.)
15:11 3. Who is going to use it and how.
15:12 garycmartin tch: pong
15:13 silbe For 1., it should be easy enough to reach consensus as it's just about enhancing what we _can_ do, not about _when_ we use it.
15:13 tch silbe: yeah, actually the protocol is already chosen
15:13 silbe For 2. (UI), we'll need to discuss some more in-depth. I don't like the current proposal too much. ;)
15:14 The most challenging part will be 3., and I suggest to decide that for each individual change, not as part of your feature.
15:15 tch silbe: +1 on that,
15:15 silbe: refering to 3
15:15 alsroot dfarning: will you keep an eye on updater stuff? since rralcala needs it asap
15:15 silbe The only thing I'd like to get clarified for now is that activities are not supposed to use it. Yes, IRC already does, but that's only possible because most systems don't run Rainbow.
15:15 alsroot dfarning: silbe: tch: I guess we don't need notfication part right now, and can use only cron job
15:16 dfarning: I mean keep organization related Qs
15:16 silbe alsroot: sounds good to me, since we're talking about laptops with a rather short battery life (~3h), so they'll get shut down (AKA rebooted) often enough.
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15:17 dfarning alsroot, +1 it is pretty important.
15:17 alsroot thinks who will be a person I need to forward others when they came w/ Qs about current status of something
15:17 tch silbe: well, i will take my time and write a few details on each of these 3 sub-topics then
15:17 silbe tch: nice, thanks!
15:18 alsroot dfarning: ok, I'll forward to you :)
15:18 tch garycmartin: are you part of the dextrose mailing list?
15:19 alsroot s/current status of something/current status of something that came from out of dextrose team/
15:19 dfarning alsroot, originally that was going to be SMParrish_as the project manger.  I think we will need to help him or hire a build master:)
15:20 garycmartin tch: Yes, I'm on that list as well :)
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15:35 bernie reads backlog
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15:36 bernie re: <SMParrish> 09:25:53> silbe: point me at what you have and I'll take a look at it.  like I told bernie we are starting to get patch collisons so merging the patches that have been accepted upstream and spinning a new release might be a good thing to do
15:37 SMParrish_away: it's not like putting the patches in a different place will avoid conflicts. we have conflicts because our patches touch the same lines that upstream patches changed for new features etc.
15:37 SMParrish_away: the only solution to this problem is editing the patches until they apply. you can do this with or without git and it's pretty much the same amount of work either way
15:37 silbe: ^
15:38 silbe bernie: the difference being that I'm much more comfortable using git for resolving conflicts than using plain patch/diff.
15:39 bernie SMParrish_away: if it seems like this workflow is painful, it's just because it is. there's no tool that can make this pain go away. only following upstream more closely can alleviate it.
15:39 silbe so I'll use git anyway, even if just internally.
15:40 bernie silbe: it's just a matter of experience... here's how I do it by hand:
15:40 cp -a sugar sugar.orig
15:40 cd sugar
15:40 patch -p1 <patch_with_conflicts
15:40 resolve conflicts as you'd do with git
15:40 diff -Nrup sugar.orig sugar >patch_without_conflicts
15:41 silbe bernie: for me it's a matter of convience. git already gives me three-way diffs if there's a conflict. Once I resolved it, I can use git rebase --continue instead of having to produce a patch and put it somewhere.
15:41 bernie silbe: if you think it helps you, sure... but I think it's important we maintain discrete patches that can easily be discarded, replaced or submitted upstream
15:42 walterbender_ ciao bernardo ( bernie )
15:42 bernie silbe: if you hide the patches in git, it's a matter of time before someone does a merge with another tree (say, 0.90), making it close to impossible to retrieve the original patches for submission
15:42 walterbender_: ciao!
15:43 silbe bernie: for that I don't think it matters much whether we keep the patches in git or as files. If I deactivate a patch, it either goes well in both cases, or there are conflicts and I need to resolve them.
15:43 bernie: "someone does a merge" won't happen because nobody except me should touch the repo.
15:44 bernie silbe: I know that *development* is substantially easier in git, but we're not doing development in dextrose. quite the opposite. we do what fedora does: keep patches around for (hopefully) a short time until we can rebase
15:44 silbe at least that's how I interpret my job description ;)
15:44 bernie silbe: the number of patches we carry is high, but this isn't a good reason for switching to git. quite the opposite.
15:45 silbe: well, *if* you're going to be the only committer, than it *might* work
15:45 silbe: but will you be able to say NO when someone asks for commit access? will you be able to explain why?
15:46 silbe: wouldn't it be better to keep the patches in a directory in which anyone, regardless of experience, can figure out what's going on and what operations would mess up things?
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15:47 silbe bernie: sure, easy enough: It's *my* repository. Just as you won't get commit access to John Linvilles (sp?) repo either. The workflow is to send patches on a mailing list and *he* pushes them.
15:47 bernie silbe: ah, and you should also make this git tree secret! nobody should check it out and develop against it!
15:48 silbe: so, is git still an advantage, with all these restrictions??
15:48 silbe: you get an opaque contrainer of patches with only one operation "rebase" which works linearly... no ability to change a patch in the middle without perturbing all the other patches... it SUCKS!
15:50 silbe bernie: Not sure I shouldn't publish it, but yes, in general, patches should be against upstream source and will get ported to Dextrose by me.
15:51 bernie: git is an advantage because it allows me to work more efficiently with patches. quilt might do the same if I were used to it. Plain patch+diff are definitely not.
15:52 bernie silbe: if you _do_ publish the sugar-dextrose tree, developers like tch might find it easier to check it out and work on it for, say, fixing a bug.
15:52 silbe: then what would happen? patches don't apply upstream any more. the problem of conflicts is solved! because dextrose has become a fork :-(
15:54 silbe: it is NOT TRUE that git makes you more efficient working with patches! Trust me on this: I merged 100 patches in dextrose and it took me a tiny tiny amount of time compared to the other activities of a maintainer.
15:55 silbe bernie: if there's a conflict, it doesn't matter which repository the patch was developed against: Either Dextrose can use the patch as-is and we'll have to port it upstream, or upstream can use it as-is and Dextrose will have to do the work. There's no magic bullet.
15:56 bernie silbe: ok, let's shift the weight of conflict resolution on upstream. I wonder what tomeu would say :-)
15:56 silbe bernie: nothing. He's left.
15:57 bernie: and the most likely candidate for handling upstream patch these days is me.
15:57 bernie silbe: whoever takes his place would complain if you through at them unmergeable patches...
15:58 silbe it's clear that someone from Dextrose would need to do the porting
15:58 bernie silbe: anyway, I think you're focusing on the wrong problem: juggling patches may be a little boring, but it's not really where the time of the tree maintainer goes. testing, filing bugs and interacting with the other developers are the actual time sinks.
15:59 silbe but for now as it's always going to be me who has to do the work, so it doesn't matter much which tree I need to port for :)
15:59 and long term I hope we'll get closer to upstream
15:59 bernie silbe: it seems like we're replacing a lightweight workflow that worked well for 6 months with a complicated dance of patch rebasing that will distract us from our real objective: making a high quality sugar distribution.
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16:00 bernie silbe: perhaps it's hard to see it now, but you will probably see it 6 months from now.
16:03 silbe bernie: I'll see :)
16:03 for now I think the git based workflow works best for me
16:04 but I'll take your advice on not publishing the git repo.
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16:35 bernie silbe: k. (I know you're phlegmatic enough not to take offense even when my advice is in direct contrast with your PoV)
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16:45 silbe bernie: I'll take that as a compliment ;)
16:45 (because I think it's a good thing to be able to cope with differing PoVs)
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17:22 bernie silbe: yes, it was a compliment :)
17:23 silbe bernie: thanks :)
17:23 bernie silbe: I rarely waste my time getting into arguments with people who take offense and become defensive.
17:24 silbe: btw, I figured out another important reason not to publish your git tree: since you're going to do frequent rebases, people cloning won't be able to pull anyway.
17:24 silbe: they would actually get confused and blame you... or git.
17:27 silbe bernie: yep, I already ran into that: gitorious won't accept non-fast-forward pushes
17:28 so the mirror needs to be on a non-gitorious repo. silbe@sunjammer:... maybe.
17:29 bernie silbe: maybe only on your hd?
17:29 silbe: btw: http://people.sugarlabs.org/gitweb
17:30 silbe bernie: it needs to be on at least two HDs and I don't have RAID.
17:30 bernie silbe: this looks into ~/public_git
17:30 silbe: how are you going to distribute the source then? tarballs?
17:30 silbe: on download.sugarlabs.org?
17:30 satellit_ <satellit_!~satellit@2002:d064:95e7:0:219:d1ff:fe73:14e6> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:30 bernie silbe: rpmbuild should download them automatically
17:31 silbe bernie: interesting. is there any advantage over gitorious (except that it allows rebases)?
17:31 bernie silbe: no, it's not rpmbuild. it's the fedora infrastructure. complicated shit :)
17:31 silbe: no advantage, I use the sunjammer repos only for personal things, such as my wiki
17:31 silbe bernie: I thought of committing the patches right into the Dextrose repo, but download.sl.o would be fine for me, too.
17:32 bernie silbe: ah, you would export the patches and put  them in the dextrose repo? then I'm much less concerned than I used to be!
17:32 silbe: as long as patches remain visible as discrete units, I think people won't forget to merge them.
17:33 silbe: btw, are you planning to spend some time trying to upstream a few more patches? who's in charge of the sugar repo these days?
17:33 silbe bernie: ok. BTW, do we have any policy about what people (i.e. I ;) ) can place on git.sl.o resp. in public dirs on sunjammer? Would non-Sugar-related stuff be OK?
17:34 bernie: yep, rpm would get to see a patch series. Maybe quilt, or just format-patch. git is used only by me for maintenance, not as direct input to rpm.
17:35 bernie: Once upstream is unstuck, I'll work on upstreaming all remaining Dextrose patches.
17:44 bernie silbe: any user with a home on sunjammer can do a public_rpms dir, but I'm pretty sure that some symlinks are missing due to bugs in the system-useradd script
17:44 silbe: btw, the url http://people.sugarlabs.org/gitweb is not even published anywhere... perhaps we should say it in the people service page (which does not exist :)
17:46 silbe: regarding git & rpm: now that you described how you intend to use git, I'm 100% in favor. I wouldn't have argued if you told me "I'm going to use Emacs (or NOTEPAD.EXE) to edit patches on my computer". it's up to you to choose the development tools you're most comfortable with.
17:47 silbe bernie: ah, nice to have this resolved to a simple lack of communication issue :)
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18:44 fsoasUSBonM-4766 <fsoasUSBonM-4766!~urk@> has joined #sugar-meeting
18:45 fsoasUSBonM-4766 is now known as soasv4_macair
18:48 soasv4_macair testing a USB of fedora-14-i686-live-soas booted in MacBook Air wuth Soas-4-boot-test CD, CD formatted with OSX Diskutility to fat16 label FEDORA. This is essential to get it to boot Label HAS to be FEDORA (CAPS)
18:49 I used Liveusb-creator in Virtualbox F14 install to create the USB
18:51 after Boot with soas-4-boot-test CD it can be ejected....
18:51 just required to start boot of USB
18:53 the wired cat5 dongle can then be inserted for networking.  Apple extreeme card in MacBook Air is not supported in fedora...
18:55 satellit_ thus one can create a bootable USB in OSX and then boot from it.....NEAT
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19:18 m_anishh <m_anishh!qwebirc@gateway/shell/sugarlabs.org/x-srydaokmidwatxhk> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:52 dfarning bernie did you mean phlegmatic of pragmatic?
19:53 I've never head of anyone use phlegmatic in daily use:)
20:25 yama` <yama`!~yama@124-149-127-123.dyn.iinet.net.au> has joined #sugar-meeting
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20:38 bernie dfarning: the one that means "person whose feelings aren't easy to hurt"
20:38 dfarning: so maybe the first one :)
20:52 m_anishh has quit IRC
20:57 walterbender_ bernie: you used the proper English word.
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22:21 mchua is now known as mchua_afk
22:47 tabs <tabs!~Tabitha@118-92-239-169.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz> has joined #sugar-meeting
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23:14 soasvUSBMac-a0c2 is now known as soasV3MacAirUSB
23:15 soasV3MacAirUSB the same procedure followed with soas-v3-mirabelle. (entire process of formating;building USB booting USB done from MacBook Air
23:16 soasV3MacAirUSB has quit IRC

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