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#sugar-meeting, 2010-11-12

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13:40 satellit__ testing kde-x86_64-20101111 on Virtualbox install on MacBook Air
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14:02 dfarning good morning everybody.  it i time for our first dextrose meeting!
14:02 silbe g'day
14:03 garycmartin lurks, hi
14:04 dfarning am not sure who will be abe to make it!  I just picked a time that would seem to kind of work for europe, SA, NA, and the pacific
14:04 hey silbe garycmartin
14:05 SMParrish, bernie, alsroot ping
14:05 silbe dfarning: any time you choose will be inconvenient or even impossible for some. All you can do is try to maximise attendance and deal with the fact that not everyone can participate (every time).
14:05 dfarning looks like anish and arjun are have connection issues.
14:05 silbe, yes:(
14:06 alsroot here
14:06 Daniel_C Hi!
14:07 dfarning the bigest thing that I would like to clarify is that this is not a sugar road map meeting -- it is about how dextose can add value to olpc/sugar.
14:07 SMParrish dfarning: I am here but only have about 20mins, then I have a work meeting :(
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14:07 dfarning Daniel_C, hey good to see you.
14:08 did the feedback, fix, finished product seem like a sane area of fouces for the next several months?
14:09 silbe dfarning: it always sounds good - however it's mostly just buzzwords. What do they mean to _us_?
14:10 dfarning silbe, yah. I am think that we consider everything we do in the context of how it adds value to one of those three areas.  If not we don't do it.
14:11 silbe dfarning: for example someone (Uruguay IIRC) requested Accessibility as a feature. That will require major changes to the "zoom level" views. Would Dextrose do that work?
14:12 dfarning silbe, that is one of the things that I think AC can help.  because we can put a price on that work.
14:13 silbe, it is very hard for olpc*/SL to put a specific price on a custom fix or feature.
14:13 silbe dfarning: In general I love the way the focus on creating a "finished product" is moving away from Sugar Labs "upstream" to "downstreams" like Dextrose, OLPC and maybe SoaS.
14:14 dfarning silbe, yes I think it will add value with out being too disruptive.
14:18 silbe dfarning: was your last comment w.r.t. accessibility? (I suppose so, but am not quite sure)
14:18 dfarning how would it be if we went down the list of people working on dextrose and figured out what they are doing and how it fit in to the framework?
14:19 silbe, yes.
14:20 alsroot know the list of people and what they are doing would be useful in anycase
14:20 dfarning silbe, there are many things that various people and groups want to add to sugar -- some are easy and some are hard
14:21 ok lest's start from upstream and work our way down -- if any one has questions -- please jump in.
14:22 alsroot, silbe you guys are our dedicated upstream:)
14:22 silbe dfarning: As for bug fixes, do we only care for those that occur in Dextrose or upstream ones as well? To give a concrete example again, what about the fallout of the major Telepathy changes in Sugar 0.90? In the long run those were unavoidable and at some point in the future Dextrose will want to ship them, too. However they cause so many bugs in 0.90 (as is to be expected - not saying the work Tomeu did was bad or sth. like that) that I can't r
14:23 dfarning: yes, going over the various people / groups would indeed be useful
14:24 SMParrish silbe: we will have to deal with those issues when we rebase to a newer Fedora & Sugar but that is still down the road a bit
14:24 dfarning silbe, yes, your question is one of our key points -- we definitively care about upstream but we can't be afraid to branch when necessary.
14:25 SMParrish I have to run to another meeting.  Will read the log and tryand follow on my phone
14:25 SMParrish is now known as SMParrish_away
14:26 alsroot dfarning: btw log is not enabled on #sugar-meeting if meeting wasn't started
14:26 dfarning silbe, there is really no concrete answer -- it will be something we learn as we go.  The masters are RedHat
14:27 alsroot, ok I'l just cut and paste from my log this time and figure out how to use the bot next time.
14:27 alsroot #startmeeting
14:27 meeting Meeting started Fri Nov 12 14:27:27 2010 UTC. The chair is alsroot. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:27 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:28 dfarning redhat has found a very good balance between supporting upstream and meeting customer needs -- but it took them a long time to get there!!!
14:29 so when in doubt I ask my self, "What (and why) would RH do in this situation?"
14:30 alsroot listening carefully :)
14:30 dfarning silbe, that is kind of hand wavy -- but does it seem like a starting point around which we can all gather?  from here we can evolve as necessary.
14:31 silbe OK. I take that to mean that for now, Dextrose won't care about the Telepathy fallout of 0.90. (The fixes would most likely require someone to first learn how Telepathy works - no quick&easy fixes, no sugar-love tags)
14:31 dfarning: it's at least as good as I expected :)
14:32 there are no easy answers to this kind of question
14:33 dfarning silbe, I don't know.  I stay out of those details -- you and alsroot understand upstreams technical needs better then I do.  So it is up to you to figure out how we can best support SL and OLPC.
14:33 alsroot silbe: I guess we need to discuss how process of upstre-downstream might be orginized, any detialed questions are just details..
14:33 ..even if it is so imprtant like TP
14:34 dfarning alsroot, silbe exactly -- we will try to get the down stream part of the project focused on particular deployment needs.
14:36 alsroot, silbe I use the analogy of going to college for working with upstream.
14:36 silbe listening
14:37 dfarning it is possible to get a job straight out of highschool(short term solutions).  but people in general tend to be more successful if they make the investment in an education.
14:38 one concern is making enough money to eat while going through school
14:38 and another how much education is right.
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14:40 dfarning hopefully we will be able to answer these questions as we go -- but for now I am thinking of you, alsroot and silbe, as investments in the long term.
14:42 silbe, alsroot does that make sense?  I pick you guys for a reason:)  I think that if you do what 'feels' right you will be adding value to dextrose and AC.
14:42 picked
14:43 alsroot +1, but exactly sure w/ what :)
14:43 s/but/but not/
14:44 anyway, in my mind, having organizations like AC will be only useful..
14:44 dfarning alsroot, yah admittedly it is hand wavey:)
14:44 alsroot because they will behave like GNU/Linux distros that package (not develop) software
14:45 silbe dfarning: ok, good enough for now :)
14:46 dfarning So going down stream SMParrish_away will be the traffic cop.  Basically keeping things going in a consistant direction.
14:48 the biggest concern that I have with SMParrish_away is if we are overloading him -- a good buildmaster is a full time job.
14:49 alsroot is sure that current prolem is that developers (DeveTeam) is producing a product - sucrose (or whatever), it might more useful it deves will prodece exactly what they develop (people who code ds, will release ds and be responsible of ds bugs, etc) and organizaitons like OLPC, AC will create a final product (sugar distribution)
14:50 ..as a compilation of sugar components
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14:51 dfarning alsroot, +1 -- several year ago when SL spun off from olpc I had thought that the product role was something that deployments would be able to do on their own.
14:52 silbe alsroot: for other projects, distros sometimes fix bugs etc., but most of the time they just package what upstream gave them, not developing (fixing bugs etc.) the software.
14:53 dfarning but to be honest, I really under estimated how much expertise was required.
14:53 alsroot silbe: yup, you got me right, because having model: components <-> downstream(that produce complication), let downstream work much effectivelly w/ particular dev (eg ds dev), instead of having one more product producer (and devs in any case)
14:54 dfarning silbe, think back to RHEL -> over the developers spent a long time figureing out the right balance between shipping stock upstream and carry patches.
14:54 silbe dfarning: it's easy to make that mistake. Sometimes it helps to remember that if developing Sugar was so easy, it would already have been done years ago.
14:55 alsroot: sorry, you lost me there :(
14:55 dfarning silbe, at one time RH was carrying 10,000 custom kernel patches!!!
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14:56 dfarning silbe, they relized that was insane and shifted heavility to working with upstream now they are down to a couple of hundred custom kernel patches.
14:57 alsroot dfarning: but at the same time, they might just pay for some project devs to implement what they(RH) want, instead of insteracting w/ one more product producer (eg in case of improving gnome-file-manager, but RH need to interact w/ Gnome foundation)
14:57 silbe dfarning: do they develop many of the patches themselves or just pick them from upstream (I haven't worked with an "Enterprise" distro so far - for "community" distros it's hard to tell since the same people are often part of upstream, too)
14:59 alsroot: I don't think anyone who wants something fixed in Gnome needs to interact with the Gnome Foundation - the same way you only need to interact with the maintainer of the Sugar component, not with the SLOB.
14:59 alsroot: so I don't quite understand what you're talking about re. "product producer" etc.
14:59 alsroot silbe: s/SLOB/DevTeam-who-produce-a-product-suscrose/
15:00 dfarning alsroot, silbe those are the question we will have to answer -- there is probably not a right answer -- just reasonable balance points.
15:00 silbe alsroot: so what's the difference?
15:00 alsroot is AC can pickup ds that is not a shipped w/ entirely sucrose, it will be let AC be more flexible
15:00 *if
15:01 though, I'm steeping to the territory where I'm not confident
15:02 silbe alsroot: I still don't get what the difference is to the current situation. Dextrose can pick sugar-datastore-0.90 if it wants (and I recommend it to do so ;) ), who is going to stop us?
15:03 but we should postpone that discussion and continue with the Dextrose Roadmap :)
15:04 dfarning it has been and hour so let's wrap up the meeting and just continue talking -- this is a core topic we will pick back up with internal dextrose development next week.
15:05 alsroot dfarning: you can stop meeting by #stopmeeting command
15:05 dfarning silbe, does it make sense to think about it in terms of computer scientists vs. computer engineers.
15:05 #stopmeeting
15:05 alsroot #stopmeeting
15:05 oops, I should say
15:05 dfarning can I stop it if I didn't did start it?
15:06 silbe #endmeeting
15:06 dfarning: only the chair (alsroot) can
15:06 alsroot #endmeeting
15:06 meeting Meeting ended Fri Nov 12 15:06:42 2010 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
15:06 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-12T14:27:27.html
15:06 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]10-11-12T14:27:27
15:10 dfarning silbe, I think
15:11 you will find your place if you just do what feels natural to you.
15:12 silbe dfarning: ok. Just nudge me if you think I'm moving in the wrong direction or if I should do something particular.
15:12 alsroot thinks that he already found that, but not sure how it will be useful for destrose in short term :)
15:13 dfarning silbe, +1 what are you planning on doing next week?
15:14 alsroot, do you mean the git clean up?  It is very useful as as lowers the barriers to entry for developers.
15:14 alsroot dfarning: git is just the first thing on that looooong way :)
15:15 dfarning alsroot, what else is on your list?
15:17 alsroot dfarning: it is all about what I stated in Sugar_Architecture, the real things might be (in terms of 1 year), bazaar as a centralized hosting (builds and sharing), gitorious as an intergated sources repo (ie by one command/click, bazaar might build(for binaries) and share release code); ASLO as a catalog of the code (its DevHub is tending to be a Bazaar)
15:18 silbe dfarning: I'm in the process of rebasing the current Dextrose sugar patch set. I've already done a triage run through the patches. Will need to discuss with Steven and/or Bernie how much of the patches in 0.90 that didn't originate in Dextrose we want to merge. There are also a few patches that are either not yet merged upstream or haven't been sent upstream yet (many of which need revising).
15:18 alsroot it might sound like launchpad, but it won't tie to particular packaging system/vcs/distro
15:19 dfarning silbe, sounds good.
15:20 silbe dfarning: one question I have is how much work I should do myself (re. the revising of patches) and what I should delegate to the original patch authors (is that possible at all for the current patch set?).
15:20 alsroot dfarning: anyway, for 0.92, I'm planing to have new glucose component(but there is no need to have it exactly in glucose), bazaar and aslo, all these in initial but useful stage
15:20 dfarning alsroot, the only concern that I have is that we can't diverge from standard .deb or .rpm packaging methods.
15:22 alsroot dfarning: if you are talking about how some packages will be deployed (by eg AC), then it will be (mostly upstrea packages for glucose), and regular rpm/deb for the rest
15:22 dfarning: most important (for me) start when users start changing the code, in that place, 0instill will make sense (so 0install is not about regular deplyoment (by AC)
15:23 dfarning silbe, for now I would suggest leaning heavily towards fixing things up yourself. At least for right now the focus needs to be getting fixes commited and distributed for testing and deployment.
15:26 silbe dfarning: ok. FWIW, that's often more efficient for me in the short run (read: it takes me less time to redo a patch from scratch than to do a full review and get the submitter to fix it up).
15:27 alsroot dfarning: btw, I'm trying to keep tasks queue on http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Alsroot uptodate, so you might be assured about short/long plans
15:27 dfarning alsroot, to be honest, I don't understand(nor have time to what you are doing:(  I am going to have to leave this discusion up to you and berine.  I should not have interjected my opinion when I didn't know what I was talking about:(
15:28 alsroot, ok that will be enough for me.
15:28 satellit_ FYI     https://bugzilla.redhat.com/sh[…]bug.cgi?id=639985 Firefox crashes with xulrunner-python installed     is this fedora specific? or mozilla?  is it pertinent to USR and AC?
15:29 dfarning silbe,  +1 then as developers look promising you can spend more time reviewing and giving them feedback so they can create clean patches on their own.
15:30 alsroot satellit_: I guess nobody exact fedora use "python2.7" :)
15:30 *except
15:30 bernie hello people
15:30 satellit_ ok
15:30 bernie silbe: it would be good to make a list of candidate patches to backport to dextrose. only very safe & useful stuff, of course.
15:30 silbe: we absolutely do not want ANY regression on dextrose.
15:30 dfarning hey bernie
15:31 silbe dfarning: the other thing I'm currently investigating is how to remove HippoCanvas from the zoom levels, which is a prerequisite for accessibility work, which in turn is a prerequisite for automated UI testing (which IMO is of utmost importance especially when working with "fresh from the university" developers).
15:31 bernie: that's a matter of judgement. :)
15:32 bernie: I already filtered out patches that I think don't apply to Dextrose (e.g. AFAIK Mesh is disabled).
15:33 dfarning silbe, +1
15:33 I'll post a summary to the dextros mailing list later today.
15:34 alsroot hmm.. looks like I was unsubscribed from dextrose ml
15:34 dfarning plus modify the meeting time as needed -- let's plan on something weekly for the next couple of weeks at least.
15:34 silbe bernie: there are not many patches left to consider. Most of them are bug fixes.
15:35 dfarning alsroot, that happened to walter the other day.
15:35 silbe bernie: the one "major" change that's not a bug fix is the spiral view for the home screen, and IIRC you already said you would want it. ;)
15:37 alsroot dfarning: in my case it is simpler, I just didn't add dextrose to he list in mutt, so I didn't see dextrose emails all time
15:38 ..to be exact 500 posts
15:39 silbe alsroot: you can't be much behind if it's just 500 mails ;)
15:43 bernie dfarning: to oversimplify, alsroot is trying to solve the hardest problem in sugar: building activity bundles from sources to target multiple architectures and operating systems.
15:43 dfarning: this is hard work that some people have been calling "useless" for 2 years. until the the XO-1.75 came out. now suddenly everyone sees how useful it was.
15:43 silbe: +1 for removing hippocanvas, but that's not something we can land in dextrose anytime soon
15:43 silbe: yes, I think the spiral and color selector are relatively safe and valuable (from our user's pov ;-)... so let's merge!
15:43 silbe: we may also want to watch the 0.84 branch for patches that may not be on mainline (although I think erikos doesn't apply anything that isn't already in master)
15:46 alsroot has started thinking about switching to apache, right now ;)
15:46 because bernie's words were so sweet
15:52 bernie: but I need bilbo for that ;) since I can't experiment on jita any more
15:55 silbe alsroot: careful, some sweet stuff is poisonous [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate] or at least unhealthy (sorry, didn't find a good link about the metabolismic effects of sweeteners)! :P
15:55 dfarning bernie, alsroot yah... jonas in debain did the same thing.... for years everyone thought he was nuts.
15:56 silbe dfarning: many people still do (think Jonas is nuts). :-/
15:56 I just wish we had a Jonas on the Fedora side as well
15:58 the personal union of (some) Sugar developers and Fedora maintainers is still causing Sugar to be quite Fedora-centric.
16:10 Cerlyn I had suggested to somewhat that it might be worth creating a tagging system so that all commits could be traced to a ticket.  That way you could track what is on branch X versus Y easily.
16:10 But it was suggested spreadsheets were sufficient for this (and a lot of other things) for Sugar/OLPC purposes instead
16:12 {Seems to be a lot of infrastructure actually which I consider critical to full-time test/development which is not present in a lot of open source projects, actually; not certain where the cost/benefit lies that you don't see it commonly done}
16:13 alsroot Cerlyn: for tracking commits we have (or at least had) policy to attach "#<number>" to all such commits
16:13 silbe Cerlyn: (re. SL - no idea about OLPC) iff there is a ticket, the commit should mention the ticket number in the subject or at least in the body. See http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]_Team/Code_Review
16:14 cjb yes, we do the same, "Trac #nnn: " in subject
16:14 Cerlyn So it shouldn't be too hard to write a parser then to do automated reports
16:14 cjb (or "OLPC #nnn" or "SL #nnn")
16:14 silbe Cerlyn: there might already be one. erikos should know.
16:15 Cerlyn Half the fun is getting information - or knowing what questions to ask :)
16:16 silbe :)
16:19 We have a saying here: The student needs to know, the assistant (to the professor) needs to know where to look it up, and the professor needs to know where the assistant is. ;)
16:21 Cerlyn I think there is a lot of Sugar-related information which people presume others know exists, which is not necessarily true
16:24 satellit_ +1
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